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DWI Official Statement

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  1.  
  2. Old Today, 06:46 PM #1
  3. [DWi]PAINTITGOLD
  4.  
  5. Account Icon
  6. Chat Symbol
  7.  
  8. Team CompLexity/DWI's public statement to the HoN community regarding everything.
  9. The entire story begins with NASL.
  10.  
  11.  
  12. The entire first part of this - up until dreamhack winter and compLexity is an E-mail I sent to detonator, the head of tournament organization at S2, in order to try to get him to recognize the unfairness/bias we're dealing with. It was originally a letter I wrote in week 2 of NASL to which I received no reply. There's many logical inconsistencies and examples which are vital here.
  13.  
  14.  
  15. Hi, I'm PAINTITGOLD from CompLexity, and i'm expressing the opinion that our team holds.
  16.  
  17. I want to voice our concerns for NASL. I wish to make this clear as possible. As such, new/important points will be bolded, and skype chat will be in italics.
  18.  
  19.  
  20. Prior information:
  21. Let me clearly state that when we as a team, sign up for tournaments, we sign up as a USW team. We sign up as a US WEST team because we have two players from the absolute most west land you can live on. Hawaii and British Columbia, Canada(Jah, and Tarano respectively). We also have a UScentral player and two Canadian USEast players. We choose USWest as our home server because it's the best team decision for us, as Jah AND tarano both get 250+ ping on European servers, whereas everyone else sits at 150-190. Not only is it the best TEAM decision, but it's also been proven throughout other tournaments that it's the fairest decision, and in competitive play, fairness should obviously be a top priority as a tournament admin. When the rules say that "fairest ping" decides server issues, the "fairest" ping has always been in our favour.
  22.  
  23. Part 1 - came two weeks ago when we played MSI in NASL.
  24.  
  25.  
  26. First and foremost I would like to explain that we were under the pre-tense that our games against europeans were all going to be played on USEast, because we're a west based team, and it was acknowledged throughout the skype that we're not only a west based team, but Jah also lives in Hawaii, and Tarano lives in Vancouver(both being farther from the east coast than Europe is.)
  27.  
  28. Example:
  29.  
  30. [10/2/2011 5:47:13 PM] Josh Amos: [Sunday, October 02, 2011 5:38 PM] Matthew "jaH" Penaroza:
  31.  
  32. <<< [Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:48 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras:
  33.  
  34. <<< ya
  35. obv the team that came to mind when we talked about itw as col and jah`... but basically s2 is paying to host servers simply for this event
  36. and to also host a USW just for them... just ya
  37. hopefully it can manage with USE— Nick "breakycpk" Caras, Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:48 PM— Matthew "jaH" Penaroza, Sunday, October 02, 2011 5:38 PM
  38.  
  39.  
  40. As such, we brought it up in game against MSI, and we asked Breaky to come into chat and confirm to MSI that what we were saying is indeed true. As per our request, he came in to the game and confirmed that we DO indeed get 3 US east games, however, they get hellbourne twice. This is something that we agreed upon(although Zaku may have seemed to disagree in game chat, he doesn't have the opinion of our team.) This is in the chat parser, and can be re-confirmed with availability of the replays, given that we get the lobby chat. I'm telling you the full story so that all blanks are filled in completely. Let me make this clear: one would assume that this would no doubt set precedent for our games against Europeans in the future. This is the most fair route because the ping averages are the closest by far. Our west players have a 250+ average on European hosts, overall the ping averages in comparison are just more even/fair. I'll move more into this later when it becomes more relevant.
  41.  
  42.  
  43. So moving into the actual issue of problem #1
  44.  
  45. We're playing a game in the patch where silhouette was bugged, obviously prior to the whole silhouette blow up. At about 4 minutes into the game, a dual lane vs dual lane situation, silhouette picks up a kill, and the hero mysteriously "Has died." 8 Minutes in, I was the person playing silhouette, I realize that i'm not getting creep kills, so for some reason, I think that my game is bugged. I ask for a pause, and decide to restart HoN due to thinking my HoN bugged. Roughly 8 minutes into the game was when this happened. This happens throughout the entire game, which is a VERY close and VERY long game in which hellbourne kills kongor 4 times which is undoubtedly a deciding factor in the game. Throughout the game I haven't died till 40 minutes, but I as well as others on my team realize I as silhouette, am severely under-farmed. The game goes on for 60 minutes and it's an incredibly back and forth close game, where we are unable to contest any Kongor killings. (This is all just back-story for those who aren't aware of the situation.)
  46.  
  47. After the match, the next day, we decide to browse through the bug forums on the hon forums to check if anyone else is having issues with silhouette and bugs pertaining to her. The source of the bug hasn't been revealed yet, and the replays are unavailable to us. Much to what we expected, we see posts about silhouette bugs. Very little at this point, is actually revealed about the bug. We immediately ask Breaky to check the replay and we state that silhouette is a bugged hero, and that the hero kill wasn't the only thing that was missed that game, we tell him that we believe creep kills were missed as well. With the replays unavailable to us, we ask him to watch silhouette specifically to see if she misses any creep kills within the first 10 minutes because I was confident I missed a lot of CS, specifically 2 catapults in under 10 minutes that I should have had. He replies back to us that "he sees nothing wrong and that silhouette wasn't missing creep kills". Despite that, Breaky still says that missing a hero kill early is very important and he will poll other competitors in NASL and get their opinions on the matter. Our personal opinion is that 1 hero kill gold/exp doesn't affect the game enough to warrant a remake. He ends up polling 7 people. At this point, as a team, because of our history with Breaky and Phil, we don't think that Breaky put in legitimate effort into looking into the bug.
  48.  
  49. The next day, more details of the bug are revealed, and we find out that the silhouette bug didn't only affect heroes, but creeps as well. At this point, as the silhouette player, I was confident that I was missing creeps early game that I normally would have received.
  50.  
  51. Our team makes the decision to ask Breaky to review the replay personally, due to the lack of effort we thought Breaky put in.
  52.  
  53. He makes it clear to us that if the replay is leaked, we WILL be receiving a fine and that we're fully willing to take all responsibility of any possibility of the replay being leaked. We accept the proposition offered by him.
  54.  
  55. Just as a time reference, we received the replay at 6PM EST.
  56.  
  57. Moving on, we get the replay and immediately we start looking at it to see if the bug actually occurred during he game, and if the bugs actually did indeed affect the game. By 10 minutes, it becomes evidently clear that silhouette was missing creeps in lane. At 10:30, we restart the replay and start documenting every single instance the bug occurred. We can see that silhouette is missing the creeps, but we had no idea how or why they were being missed. We write down every instance of it happening, and we do the math on how much the bug effected the game by 30 minutes.
  58.  
  59. By 30 minutes, from creep kills alone, silhouette had lost over 1000 gold and 1000 experience. On top of a hero kill, that's 1250 gold and 1450 experience by 30 minutes lost. At the point in time, this is the first time that we(CompLexity) actually think we have a very valid case in the dispute.
  60.  
  61. Let me state my opinion on this matter right now. There's no argument for "did this have an effect on the game?" or "did this ultimately affect the outcome of the game?". The fact of the matter is, it did, without a doubt, have a large effect on the game. I have spoken to other HoN "professionals" on the top teams about the situation since then - and they agree with this opinion. They all agree that it's worth a remake. A few people willing to vouch for this that I've talked to in the past would be YoDa, Sender and Bdiz.
  62.  
  63. The time is now 7PM EST, one hour later, and we're excited, we think there's a very high chance of having game 3 remade. We ask Breaky to come into our vent to re-check the replay, pausing at specific times to point out the specific instances of silhouette missing creep kills. The first one we pause at is something like 5 minutes into the game, a catapult, we tell him to pause at 5:27(made up number, I don't have the real number off hand.)
  64.  
  65. We tell him to resume the game, and to look at silhouette attacking the siege, and that he killed it, but didn't get gold for it.
  66.  
  67. His first reply is him initially brushing it off, "The archer got it". So we rewind the replay, make sure that we're not wrong here, watch in the slowest-motion and make sure the archer's projectile didn't get it. We tell him that the archer didn't get it.
  68.  
  69. His next reply, he also brushes it off again, saying something along the lines of "Your right.. the archer didn't get it, but it looks like same frame." At this point, we didn't know how to verify the bug besides the missing gold, but then we check to see if silhouette got experience for the siege unit, and she didn't receive any. At this point, we find an undeniable way to conclude where the bug occurs and where it doesn't.
  70.  
  71.  
  72. His next reply is "Hmm.. that's very strange.. hmm.." We continue to point out every time we previously documented till about 15 minutes. We also tell him that by 30 minutes silhouette had lost 1000gold/exp from creeps as WELL as the hero kill.
  73. He tells us that we have a very legitimate request and says that he'll have to talk to Phil, and the people he polled originally on it.
  74.  
  75. We say O-K and he leaves vent. We trust him and the further inquiry we expect he'll do on the issue as the head tournament admin, expecting fair treatment, and legitimate investigation to occur.
  76.  
  77. A day after our request into further inquiry of our dispute, we receive a message from Breaky on the ruling:
  78.  
  79. [9/26/2011 5:59:31 PM] Matthew "jaH" Penaroza: [Monday, September 26, 2011 4:52 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras:
  80.  
  81. <<< So after discussing the issue with several parties and really looking into your request of a redo of the third game of your series against MSI for the NASL, we have come to the final decision of not having it replayed and having the results stand as is.
  82.  
  83. I want to say that I really have appreciated the manner in which you have approached this and you most certainly made it easier on me to deal with this situation. I also want to be very clear that I never had the assumption that you were going after this request just for the sake of wanting a chance to defeat MSI, you ultimately did have a very legitimate request.
  84.  
  85. However, due to the circumstances of this overall having an effect on basically all of the series this past weekend (whether they TRUELY determined the outcome of the match doesn't matter) we cannot rely on person opinion and theorycrafting to make these conclusions. For the sake of the event and to make sure we aren't going through a picking and choosing manner, it is best to just keep the results as is.
  86.  
  87. I do not expect you to be happy with this decision, but I do hope that you can respect it and move on with the event.— Nick "breakycpk" Caras, Monday, September 26, 2011 4:52 PM
  88.  
  89.  
  90. This is the reply we received from Breaky. We accepted the decision as a team, as disappointed as we were about it. Obviously, we feel like the game warranted a rematch, but if this was the decision that was made by Breaky and other competitors in NASL, then we had no choice to accept the decision.
  91.  
  92. This wasn't a problem until we found out that Breaky lied straight to our faces about doing further discussion. He didn't conduct ANY type of further investigation, here are the issues with what he said:
  93.  
  94.  
  95. This was the response we received from Breaky. Here are the problems with what he said. What he said will be bolded.
  96.  
  97. [9/26/2011 5:59:31 PM] Matthew "jaH" Penaroza: [Monday, September 26, 2011 4:52 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras:
  98.  
  99. <<< So after discussing the issue with several parties and really looking into your request of a redo of the third game of your series against MSI for the NASL, we have come to the final decision of not having it replayed and having the results stand as is.
  100.  
  101. I want to say that I really have appreciated the manner in which you have approached this and you most certainly made it easier on me to deal with this situation. I also want to be very clear that I never had the assumption that you were going after this request just for the sake of wanting a chance to defeat MSI, you ultimately did have a very legitimate request.
  102.  
  103. However, due to the circumstances of this overall having an effect on basically all of the series this past weekend (whether they TRUELY determined the outcome of the match doesn't matter) we cannot rely on person opinion and theorycrafting to make these conclusions. For the sake of the event and to make sure we aren't going through a picking and choosing manner, it is best to just keep the results as is.
  104.  
  105. I do not expect you to be happy with this decision, but I do hope that you can respect it and move on with the event.— Nick "breakycpk" Caras, Monday, September 26, 2011 4:52 PM
  106.  
  107.  
  108. Breaky: So after discussing the issue with several parties and really looking into your request of a redo of the third game of your series against MSI for the NASL, we have come to the final decision of not having it replayed and having the results stand as is.
  109.  
  110. This is just plain wrong. They discussed the issue with "several parties" and really looked into the request of a re-do without giving the "several parties" involved the entirety of the information. The several parties were NOT INFORMED that CREEPS were not giving experience or gold, they were only told about the HERO KILL not giving experience or gold. This is a complete and utter fabrication of the truth - and something that is completely despicable. They also included the "really looking into your requests of a redo" which is typed in the tense that they thought that we were trying to swindle a rematch out of spite, and that they had prior thoughts about our request. This shows the prior bias that breaky and phil hold against our team and the level of serious-ness they took when dealing with us.
  111.  
  112. Also, I have the exact conversation Breaky had with ONE of the competitors. He wishes to remain anonymous. This is just further proof that he never further explained that creep kills were not giving experience or gold on top of the initial hero kill, and that all competitors were ignorant to the real situation. It further supports the fabrication of the truth that went on. He kept the "competitors" he asked, under the rug.(Ignorant)
  113.  
  114.  
  115. I got in touch with one of the competitors polled and got the exact chat log that we as well as the competitor, I assume was copy and pasted to every single competitor polled. Here it is. I was also told this was all that was given to him by another competitor that was polled.
  116.  
  117. [ AM] : [September 25, 2011 ] Nick "breakycpk" Caras:
  118.  
  119. <<< so
  120. a silohuette in a side lane with accursed
  121. vs a elec / hb lane
  122. its 3 min into the game
  123. bloodlust has already happened
  124. sil goes for a kill on hb
  125. hb dies... but sil gets no credit for the kill... both in experience and gold
  126. hb still loses gold
  127. the game ends up lasting an hour
  128. sil team loses
  129. do you think its worth a redo of the whole match?— Nick "breakycpk" Caras, Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:00 PM
  130.  
  131.  
  132. Complete Skype logs between breaky and one competitor who remains to be anonymous. I would appreciate it if you could try not to use this, but if it's needed, then it's needed. The george name is an alias. I edited the name, dates and times so it couldn't be back traced. If you need the real logs, or if it's questioned at any point in time, I have the real logs and I'm sure the competitor wouldn't mind.
  133.  
  134. [3:14:46 AM] George: [9/25/2011 417 PM] : wtf
  135. [123/2011 6:03:25 PM] George : redo entire match?
  136. [123/2011 7:08:43 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: correct
  137. [123011 8:09:47 PM] George: why woudl the game be redone
  138. [1232011 9:01:05 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: thats what I am getting opinions for
  139. [1322011 10:033:34 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: so sounds like you are not in favor of replaying the match >?
  140. [2311 11:043:55 PM] George: i dont think im understanding the situaation
  141. [13231 12:343:04:01 PM] George: i dont see any argument fro replaying
  142. [1232011 1323:04:07 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: basically
  143. [91231 131232:04:14 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: a sil got no gold or exp for getting a kill on a hero 4 min into the game
  144. [233011 123223 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: does that warrent a replay of the whole match
  145. [232011 431321:26 PM] George: why not
  146. [1232011 4123213:29 PM] George: game bug?
  147. [132011 41321332 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: because of a game bug, yes
  148. [23132011 12323:02 PM] George: and they played an hour
  149. [123011 413231321:04 PM] George: after that?
  150. [2132011 12312309 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: the game lasted about 53 min
  151. [2311 4123123:12 PM] George: no remake
  152. [1232011 131329 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: ok, thank you
  153.  
  154. So what this shows is that the competitors are under the assumption that it was only a hero kill, like I mentioned previously. I also have another one of the 7 competitors breaky polled that is willing to vouch that he was never given any more information regarding the situation.
  155.  
  156.  
  157. Breaky: I want to say that I really have appreciated the manner in which you have approached this and you most certainly made it easier on me to deal with this situation. I also want to be very clear that I never had the assumption that you were going after this request just for the sake of wanting a chance to defeat MSI, you ultimately did have a very legitimate request.
  158.  
  159. My opinion on this statement: He's double backed on his own path. He thinks that we're hell-raisers, or ****-disturbers, looking to cause problems where ever we go. We aren't. We just want equality, we don't want any unnecessary issues, we feel that this had a huge effect on the game, and it did. He double backs and says he never had the assumption that we were going over this request for the sake of wanting to defeat MSI. By saying this, it's clear he had those thoughts in his head, and his previous opinion has supported that when going through the replay with us, calling them same frame.
  160.  
  161. Back to breaky's message.
  162.  
  163. However, due to the circumstances of this overall having an effect on basically all of the series this past weekend (whether they TRUELY determined the outcome of the match doesn't matter) we cannot rely on person opinion and theorycrafting to make these conclusions. For the sake of the event and to make sure we aren't going through a picking and choosing manner, it is best to just keep the results as is.
  164.  
  165. It's not theorycrafying, nor is it personal opinion. It's a fact that 1000+exp and 1000+gold on top of a hero kill before 30 minutes greatly effects the game. They won't effect all the series of the weekend, because we know for a fact that we were the only team that complained about the issue. Since that's a fact, it means that no other teams had close enough games to the point where this is a game changing issue. On top of this, you would only need to replay the games where two situations have to simultaneously occur: the situations being A.) Silhouette lost. and B.) It was a very close game. For the games to be forced to be replayed, both these situations have to occur, and I would also like to venture on a limb and say that we're the only team that has both requirements filled in.
  166.  
  167. Breaky said he consulted others - but he didn't even consult the other HEAD ADMIN OF NASL? So he hasn't consulted the competitors he "polled" to help make the decision in the first place and he doesn't consult the other head admin - PhilTheThrill when making the decision. Breaky takes our fate regarding this dispute COMPLETELY IN his hands and makes his OWN decision on it, and this is just further truth of him completely lying to us about consulting others to make his decision.
  168.  
  169. Upon making his decision, Breaky didn't even consult Phil, the other head admin of NASL
  170.  
  171. [10/21/2011 12:47:10 AM] Josh Amos: i don't plan on having one
  172. [10/21/2011 12:47:34 AM] Josh Amos: i've simply stated on the forums that the bug whether you like it or not
  173. [10/21/2011 12:47:42 AM] Josh Amos: had a great affect on the game
  174. [10/21/2011 12:47:50 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: Your team captain came to us and told us to look at the hero kill
  175. [10/21/2011 12:47:53 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: that the bug affected
  176. [10/21/2011 12:47:56 AM] Josh Amos: nope
  177. [10/21/2011 12:47:59 AM] Josh Amos: false
  178. [10/21/2011 12:48:10 AM] Josh Amos: we did at first
  179. [10/21/2011 12:48:19 AM] Josh Amos: then we found out about the silhouette bug and asked you to re-assess the situation
  180. [10/21/2011 12:48:27 AM] Josh Amos: that's why we got access to the replay
  181. [10/21/2011 12:48:28 AM] Josh Amos: to look for ourselves
  182. [10/21/2011 12:48:46 AM] Josh Amos: and then we clearly documented every piece of evidence that happened that game
  183. [10/21/2011 12:48:54 AM] Josh Amos: and breaky came on vent and looked at it
  184. [10/21/2011 12:49:55 AM] Josh Amos: do you think that we wouldn't bring this up or something?
  185. [10/21/2011 12:50:19 AM] Josh Amos: or rather the better question being
  186. [10/21/2011 12:50:37 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i dont know, i wasnt present for anything but the inital inquiry from Jah who brought up the hero kill
  187. [10/21/2011 12:50:42 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: everything else went through breaky apparently
  188. [10/21/2011 12:50:46 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: because this is the first i'm hearing
  189. [10/21/2011 12:50:49 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: of an additional review
  190. [10/21/2011 12:50:56 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: and vent convo
  191. [10/21/2011 12:51:00 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: or anything like that
  192. [10/21/2011 12:51:02 AM] Josh Amos: that's your fault as an admin then, not ours. We added a huge addition review
  193. [10/21/2011 12:51:15 AM] Josh Amos: the day after we looked in the bug complaints section
  194. [10/21/2011 12:51:23 AM] Josh Amos: and we found out that silhouette bug was not only with creeps
  195. [10/21/2011 12:51:27 AM] Josh Amos: so we asked breaky to look at it
  196. [10/21/2011 12:51:35 AM] Josh Amos: and he said that it was all same frame stuff
  197. [10/21/2011 12:51:49 AM] Josh Amos: and we said it wasn't and we would respectfully like to look at the replay ourselves to determine it
  198. [10/21/2011 12:52:13 AM] Josh Amos: because of this request, breaky told us that if the replay was leaked at all, we would be getting fined without doubt and we accepted that if it was leaked, we accept the fine
  199. [10/21/2011 12:52:36 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: hmm, again this is all new info to me
  200. [10/21/2011 12:52:41 AM] Josh Amos: upon looking at the replay, we documented every instance of it up to 32 minutes.
  201. [10/21/2011 12:52:52 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i had no idea any replays were given to any players
  202. [10/21/2011 12:52:59 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: so i guess that is "my" fault as an admin
  203. [10/21/2011 12:53:06 AM] Josh Amos: he said that he went over it before making the final decision
  204. [10/21/2011 12:53:29 AM] Josh Amos: not only that, upon him giving his decision to us as an admin, he brought up the players he polled
  205. [10/21/2011 12:53:36 AM] Josh Amos: and said that 1/7 only agreed to remake.
  206. [10/21/2011 12:53:49 AM] Josh Amos: so we were under the assumption that they knew about the entire situation
  207. [10/21/2011 12:54:04 AM] Josh Amos: however, upon further inspection and TALKING to the players polled themselves
  208. [10/21/2011 12:54:20 AM] Josh Amos: they had no idea it included creeps, and that many creeps to be infact, including the hero kills.
  209.  
  210.  
  211. Both the competitors who were polled, who I talked to, given the FULL situation that occurred with the bug changed their polled votes to "Remake."
  212.  
  213.  
  214.  
  215. I do not expect you to be happy with this decision, but I do hope that you can respect it and move on with the event.
  216.  
  217. My team as well as I had no problem moving on when we were under the assumption that breaky re-polled the competitors and informed them of the updates on the situation at hand. However, since he did not, my team as well as I, were lied to, STRAIGHT to our faces by the head admin of the tournament.
  218.  
  219.  
  220. Regardless, we moved on, and so did the tournament.
  221.  
  222.  
  223. That's the end of Part 1.
  224. PAINTITGOLD is online now Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
  225. Old Today, 06:47 PM #2
  226. [DWi]PAINTITGOLD
  227.  
  228. Account Icon
  229. Chat Symbol
  230.  
  231. Part 2 came this Sunday, October 1st, 2011, when we had a match against REASON Gaming.
  232. First and foremost:
  233.  
  234. I would like to state before delving further into any of these matters that our team has been accepted as a West team by all other teams and tournaments, and because of this the admin of the Dreamhack winter MSI Beat it tournament, StreeTT, when we played in the qualifier, made us compare pings and see the lower averages of the two. The averages were clearly in our favor, being as a west team, and we played every single match in the Dreamhack winter qualifying tournament, on the US East servers.
  235.  
  236. Every time we scrim a european team, we also play USEast because they know that we're a west team.
  237.  
  238. http://gaming.msi.com/news/dh-msi-be...fier-1-bracket
  239.  
  240. Evidence of the dream hack qualifier we went through all on East host.
  241. StreeTT's rulings for server hosting.
  242.  
  243. NOTE: TEAMS ROLL FOR SIDES IN ALL CASES
  244.  
  245. - EU vs USE - 1 on EU, 1 on USE, roll for EU/USE
  246.  
  247. If match is played on EU server, then USE team will host for best ping.
  248.  
  249. If match is played on USE server, then EU team will host for best ping.
  250.  
  251. - EU vs USW - play all matches on USE (EU team host for best ping)
  252.  
  253. - RUS vs USE - play all matches on EU (US team host for best ping)
  254.  
  255. - RUS vs USW - 1 on EU, 1 on USE, roll for EU/USE
  256.  
  257. If match is played on EU server, then USW team will host for best ping.
  258.  
  259. If match is played on USE server, then EU team will host for best ping.
  260.  
  261. - USE vs USW - play all matches on USS/USC (alternate host)
  262.  
  263. - AUS/SEA vs EU - play all matches on USW (EU team host for best ping)
  264.  
  265. - AUS/SEA vs US - play all matches on JPN (team with higher ping host match)
  266.  
  267. - BR vs EU/USE/USW - play all matches on USE (alternate host)
  268.  
  269.  
  270.  
  271. Something else I would like to note is that StreeTT is known well in the community for being the best tournament admin, and for having a flawless, problem-less tournament.
  272.  
  273. There's other countless tournaments
  274.  
  275. Just a few pieces of evidence supporting that.
  276.  
  277. Game 1 against REASON came along, and we informed them that we'd be playing 3 games on USE so it didn't come as a shock to them. As a west team, and because we played MSI the week before, we were under the impression that we would be playing on USEast, the fairest server.
  278.  
  279. Let me also note that REASON said that they had no problem playing all 3 games on USE, and that they thought Zaku was just trying to 'swindle' them, which is the reason they fought against the "3 USE rule" in the first place. They knew that 3 games on USEast were fairest, and were expecting it, but because of how Zaku approached the situation, they consulted Breaky on the issue.
  280.  
  281. Another important thing to note here is that in team chat, Zaku called breaky DonutCPK, however, breaky being an admin and watching both allied and all chat, saw that, and got infuriated and messaged Jah that he wouldn't have any more DISRESPECT from us or we'd be disqualified.
  282.  
  283.  
  284. Now on to the situation that happened Sunday against REASON GAMING.
  285. Reason GAMING on East host: 160 Average
  286. CompLexity GAMING on East host: 110 Average
  287.  
  288. Average difference: 50
  289.  
  290. Unfortunately I didn't take a screenshot as evidence, but this holds true for most if not all European teams. The ping difference is simply lower. I do, however, have a screenshot, and have provided a screenshot to breaky and phil about the ping average.
  291.  
  292. http://i.imgur.com/YxS4Z.jpg
  293.  
  294. The screenshot shows:
  295.  
  296. REASON GAMING on European server: 77 average
  297. CompLexity GAMING on European Server: 203 average
  298.  
  299. Average ping difference: 126 ping. That's nearly 3 times the difference. It seems apparent that the fairest route here is to play all games on East, or have a West server we could choose as our "Home realm" server. However, we do not have this option, so we would choose the most neutral of the two for the games, being east.
  300.  
  301.  
  302. Back to what I mentioned before, and I quote
  303.  
  304. "As such, we asked Breaky to come into chat and confirm to MSI that what we were saying is indeed true. As per our request, he came in to the game and confirmed that we DO indeed get 3 US east games, however, they get hellbourne twice. This is something that we agreed upon(although Zaku may have seemed to disagree in game chat, he doesn't have the opinion of our team.) This is in the chat parser, and can be re-confirmed with availability of the replays, given that we get the lobby chat. I'm telling you the full story so that all blanks are filled in completely. Let me make this clear: one would assume that this sets precedent for our games against Europeans in the future. This is the most fair route because the pings are closest by far. Our west players have a 250+ average on European hosts. I'll move more into this later when it becomes more relevant." The fact that all 3 games were on USEast is evidence enough.
  305.  
  306. A week and a half ago, when we played MSI, breaky confirmed to us that all games were to be played on USE with europeans getting choice of fp/hellbourne twice. Now, this has to be confirmed by lobby chat, which we don't have availability of, until the games are hosted on the S2 server.
  307.  
  308. This week, against REA, when we informed them all 3 games were to be played on USEAST, they argued differently, and we decided to wait out breaky's decision. However, breaky was casting EZ vs LION twitch TV grand finals, and he was busy. We were of the opinion that we were correct, and that there SHOULD be 3 games on USEAST BECAUSE of the precedent that Breaky set prior against MSI. However, upon REASON's complaint, breaky went BACK on his decision that he made LAST week against MSI, where he ruled that 3 games were to be played on USEast and they get choice of fp/hellbourne. This is where the problems with REASON-gaming began.
  309.  
  310. Despite breaky making a ruling the week before, he went back on his decision and pulled out the rules, which was completely hypocritical.
  311.  
  312. 5. All EU vs US match ups will be ROLL for first and third server, with other region server being the second choice. (ie USE / EU / USE)
  313.  
  314. a. There is NO exception for this
  315.  
  316.  
  317. As breaky is casting a game, I begin to message Phil, the other head admin of the NASL tournament. I will now show you the ENTIRE conversation.
  318.  
  319. [10/2/2011 5:30:55 PM] Josh Amos: yo
  320. [10/2/2011 5:30:58 PM] Josh Amos: you here?
  321. [10/2/2011 5:36:04 PM] Josh Amos: need help with NASL stuff
  322. [10/2/2011 5:36:11 PM] Josh Amos: breaky is casting and can't be bothered apparently
  323. [10/2/2011 5:45:20 PM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: whats up
  324. [10/2/2011 5:45:51 PM] Josh Amos: last week we were told that we play USE/USE/USE against europeans
  325. [10/2/2011 5:45:58 PM] Josh Amos: cuz we're a west team
  326. [10/2/2011 5:46:16 PM] Josh Amos: reason is contesting it
  327. [10/2/2011 5:46:30 PM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: told by who?
  328. [10/2/2011 5:46:32 PM] Josh Amos: are we supposed to be playing 1 home server 1 eu
  329. [10/2/2011 5:46:40 PM] Josh Amos: well breaky
  330. [10/2/2011 5:46:51 PM] Josh Amos: from what i know
  331. [10/2/2011 5:47:13 PM] Josh Amos: [Sunday, October 02, 2011 5:38 PM] Matthew "jaH" Penaroza:
  332.  
  333. <<< [Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:48 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras:
  334.  
  335. <<< ya
  336. obv the team that came to mind when we talked about itw as col and jah`... but basically s2 is paying to host servers simply for this event
  337. and to also host a USW just for them... just ya
  338. hopefully it can manage with USE— Nick "breakycpk" Caras, Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:48 PM
  339. [10/2/2011 5:47:31 PM] Josh Amos: on EU average ping is 215 against 75
  340. [10/2/2011 5:47:42 PM] Josh Amos: on USE average ping is 160 vs 110
  341. [10/2/2011 5:48:17 PM] Josh Amos: we're sitting waiting on a verdict for game 2
  342. [10/2/2011 5:48:34 PM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: ok
  343. [10/2/2011 5:48:45 PM] Josh Amos: because this sets precedent for every game after this one as well
  344. [10/2/2011 5:48:46 PM] Josh Amos: i assume
  345. [10/2/2011 5:49:27 PM] Josh Amos: last week we asked breaky if it was 3 USE against MSI
  346. [10/2/2011 5:49:35 PM] Josh Amos: and we as well as MSI were told it was
  347. [10/2/2011 5:50:13 PM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: ok
  348. [10/2/2011 5:51:06 PM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: well i dont know what breaky said in that instance, maybe msi was just being nice about it who knows, so what im going to do is wait for breaky to finish casting, just tell everyone who sit tight, i dont wanna make a ruling that causes conflict between admins and players
  349.  
  350. At this point, we had already waited 30 minutes for game 2, and Breaky made his decision on the fly while he was casting, however, Phil told us to wait for breaky. In the meanwhile, i'm trying to talk to Phil about breaky going back on his decision the week before that all 3 games were to be played on USEast.
  351.  
  352. [10/2/2011 5:52:28 PM] Josh Amos: yeah sounds good. we aren't playing on our home server with USE, we would prefer USW, but that's not available to us
  353. [10/2/2011 5:57:16 PM] Josh Amos: i don't see why one team would play on their home server and the other one has to play on the most fair server
  354. [10/2/2011 5:57:59 PM] Josh Amos: if it went by pings it's already proven that USE is a more fair server
  355. [10/2/2011 6:03:33 PM] Josh Amos: http://i.imgur.com/YxS4Z.jpg
  356. [10/2/2011 6:03:39 PM] Josh Amos: screenshot evidence
  357. [10/2/2011 6:10:05 PM] Josh Amos: we've been waiting in the game over an hour till honcast was finished so any updates would be awesome
  358.  
  359. I receive no reply from Phil.
  360.  
  361. jah copied pasted where breaky said he doesn't care about pings
  362. [10/2/2011 6:17:53 PM] Josh Amos: if ping doesn't matter, what does influence these decisions?
  363.  
  364. I sent this message to Phil at 6:17 and still receive no reply
  365.  
  366. Breaky says this to Jah two minutes later
  367.  
  368. [12:19:20 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: jah
  369. [12:19:25 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: your team NEEDS to start the match
  370. [12:20:19 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras: I dont care if you are unhappy with a rule that was in from the beginning and you guys just didn't "realise" so you are trying to swindle to make it something else. I hsouldn't have to make my point multiple times for you to get a match started. Start your match now
  371.  
  372. Let me explain the state of our team. We have absolutely no idea why Breaky is going back on what he said last week against MSI. We aren't trying to swindle anything. This statement to us, is completely hypocritical and we can't make any sense of it. Breaky told us the opposite last week. Breaky takes a personal attack on us, once again showing his bias towards our team, and calls us "swindlers". As a tournament admin, this is a completely unprofessional way to react to players in your tournament trying to work towards the most fair solution, ESPECIALLY since he told us the COMPLETE opposite last week.
  373. Once again, we have to actually have the lobby chat as evidence to see that breaky ruled 3 games on USEast, which means they have to be hosted on S2's servers. I don't know if you're able to transfer them for a night to parse the chat log, but if so, please do.
  374.  
  375.  
  376. [10/2/2011 11:41:27 PM] Matthew "jaH" Penaroza: [Sunday, October 02, 2011 6:13 PM] Nick "breakycpk" Caras:
  377.  
  378. <<< I dont care about pings
  379. the rule wasn't made off checking pings to see whats most fair
  380. the rule was made to make the matches happen with no wiggle room on it
  381. and to make it very clear
  382. If you cannot handle EU servers
  383. there is a erason teams are allowed to have more than 5 players
  384.  
  385. This is what breaky said when we took a screenshot of the average pings against reason, and we are TRYING TO debate the most fair method of playing(Note: I said trying because they never actually wanted to discuss any issues with us). He clearly says he doesn't care about what is most fair. The statement that "teams should have more than 5 players" is fundamentally wrong from a fairness aspect. You can't tell a team to bench two of the players they've been playing with because they're out of luck because of a rule. The games SHOULD be based off what is MOST fair for both teams, just like all E-sports have and will continue to be based off of. This is flabbergasting.
  386.  
  387. So we have no choice but to play on a european server, as breaky, who's casting, threatens us with FF unless we start the match soon, which has resolved ABSOLUTELY NO conflicts PERTAINING TO THE ISSUES. I still haven't received a single reply from Phil for 30 minutes, and I continue not to receive a reply all night. Jah and I are constantly messaging either Phil or Breaky to discuss the matter with us and get it resolved, but they don't even reply.
  388.  
  389. Here's the rest of the skype chat I talked to Phil about, the last line is unprofessional because I'm obviously frustrated that he refuses to reply to us or even acknowledge that there's an issue that needs to be resolved. They just ignore us and hide behind the ruling they made, which is hypocritical of the one they made the week before against MSI. (Josh Amos is me.)
  390.  
  391. whatever
  392. [10/2/2011 6:26:26 PM] Josh Amos: you guys refuse to even talk to anyone other than jah or come in vent
  393. [10/2/2011 6:26:41 PM] Josh Amos: let me make this clear
  394. [10/2/2011 6:27:09 PM] Josh Amos: you guys ****ing ruled last week that 3 games were USE no matter what, with the europeans getting hellbourne twice
  395. [10/2/2011 6:27:20 PM] Josh Amos: MSI can confirm, breaky made the ruling in game
  396. [10/2/2011 6:27:38 PM] Josh Amos: and now you guys go back on what you said last week due to a stupid dispute
  397. [10/2/2011 6:28:43 PM] Josh Amos: Ping doesn't matter, location doesn't matter
  398. [10/2/2011 6:29:07 PM] Josh Amos: nothing matters except breaky's favorite team of the 2
  399. [10/2/2011 6:31:23 PM] Josh Amos: congratulations on your decision based off favoritism because clearly logic doesn't matter
  400.  
  401.  
  402. I feel like there is no logic or reasoning with either of them, there's absolutely no logical basis behind any of their decisions and we can't even talk to them to express that. Jah doesn't handle team disputes, Tarano or I do and they refused to reply to me, or make a decision on anything.
  403.  
  404. So we won the next game, but we still have no answer as to why last week, all games were to be played on USEast, whereas this week, its supposed to be EAST/EURO/ROLL. We are a west team, like i've said many times, and west is our home server. Playing on east is a neutral server for us. Jah is in hawaii which is further than europe, and Tarano is in British Columbia which is also as far west as you go. The ping difference clearly supports us as the ping are an average difference of 50 when hosted on USEAST server.
  405.  
  406. The next day, I message Phil to try to start fresh with him on the topic.
  407.  
  408. [12:19:00 AM] Josh Amos: hey so jah talked to you guys about talking
  409. [12:19:05 AM] Josh Amos: to us
  410. [12:19:05 AM] Josh Amos: last night
  411. [12:19:28 AM] Josh Amos: that hasn't changed
  412. [12:19:49 AM] Josh Amos: we want to get stuff set straight
  413. [12:20:01 AM] Josh Amos: before this weeks match on friday
  414.  
  415.  
  416. I continued to message him for two days after in attempt to talk to him to get the issues straightened out, but with no luck. Not a single reply. Breaky never accepted my Skype request, so I was never in contact with him.
  417.  
  418.  
  419.  
  420.  
  421. So of course, this begs the question:
  422.  
  423. What do you(CompLexity) as a team want to get out of this?
  424.  
  425. Honestly, I don't think that what we want is far out or unrealistic. We've came to terms and accepted that the MSI game, as much as we think it should be replayed, and as much as I know other competitors would think it should be replayed, simply isn't a realistic option if we want NASL to run smoothly at this time - and if we want HoN to look good in NASL's eyes for season 2.
  426.  
  427. We just want our to talk about our issues with objectivity in mind, and not to be shunned every time we bring up an issue of fairness. We want admins who don't look down on us from the get-go. We want to be able to discuss our concerns and issues with the tournament, with the tournament administration, and come to a solution together that is the fairest for both teams. That's how good tournaments are run, and what good tournament admins do.
  428.  
  429.  
  430. With that being said, the silhouette bug is highly unfortunate. I highly doubt that we'll have any more conflicts, so we won't be using any more of your time. The first conflict was due to a bug with HoN. The second conflict was due to a hypocritical decision which confused us, and the admins ignoring us and looking down on us has only fueled the fire. As long as there's an objective decision made about the server issue, factoring in fairness of play as the highest priority, there won't be any more conflicts. (Given that HoN doesn't have any more game breaking bugs)
  431.  
  432.  
  433. The only thing we want at this point is to be able to play fair and even games. This means that we'll have all our games hosted on USEast, which is the fairest server for both teams, and it has been proven to be the fairest server for both teams time and time against when we play against europeans, which is why they were all hosted East for the Dreamhack Winter MSI beat it tournament, and all tournaments since then.
  434.  
  435. It's simply not fair to have triple ping average higher if there's a better solution available, which there is.
  436. PAINTITGOLD is online now Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
  437. Old Today, 06:48 PM #3
  438. [DWi]PAINTITGOLD
  439.  
  440. Account Icon
  441. Chat Symbol
  442.  
  443. On to the more important issue, why Complexity.HON isn't attending Dreamhack winter.
  444.  
  445.  
  446.  
  447. October 4th. Scott Ford. Our player manager.
  448.  
  449. [10/4/2011 1:26:08 AM] Josh Amos: hey there
  450. [10/4/2011 1:27:08 AM] Josh Amos: i don't know if you've been talking to jah about dreamhack or whatnot
  451. [10/4/2011 1:27:24 AM] Josh Amos: but i've been wondering if everything is still all good to go and when the tickets will be purchased
  452. [10/4/2011 6:34:40 AM] Scott Ford: its all good to go
  453. [10/4/2011 6:34:46 AM] Scott Ford: and sometime this month we will do that
  454.  
  455. October 4th. We're all good to go.
  456.  
  457. October 18th. I don't have logs for this, but Jah messaged our player manager once again asking when the tickets will be purchased, if they need our help. They receive all the necessary information for travel, such as airport codes, and ask if we're all good to go. We are.
  458. We get everything pretty much set up. Everything is still good to go.
  459.  
  460. October 22nd - We hear that the trip to dreamhack is very expensive - we compile all the cheapest flight inform
  461.  
  462. October 25th rolls around, 3 days after blizzcon.
  463. [10/25/2011 10:47:38 PM] Jason Lake: so, yeah, I'd like to at least give you a shot to explain the rampant allegations of unprofessionalism and our record in NASL
  464.  
  465. Jason Lake
  466. [10/25/2011 10:53:53 PM] Josh Amos: I'm unclear as to the complaints you received about unprofessionalism
  467.  
  468. [10/25/2011 10:55:55 PM] Jason Lake: admins, administration, scheduling, and a general forum reputation that leaves much to be desired.. one of the quotes was along the lines "Look, the HoN community wants compLexity in the game but this squad is destroying a reputation that took you years to build"
  469.  
  470. [10/25/2011 10:58:20 PM] Jason Lake: it wasn't just NASL though.. it was different people including some S2 employees.. we wouldn't just take the word of a one-off random
  471. [10/25/2011 10:58:39 PM] Josh Amos: All the unprofessionalism from S2 employees would be under the private section of the hon forums
  472. [10/25/2011 10:58:49 PM] Josh Amos: not accessible to the public
  473. [10/25/2011 10:59:09 PM] Josh Amos: that being said, we had honest intentions of improving the game and that's why we were invited to the forum
  474. [10/25/2011 10:59:36 PM] Josh Amos: i feel if you don't give your honest opinion on issues then they are either not going to be resolved
  475. [10/25/2011 10:59:46 PM] Josh Amos: or take far longer than it would if you came outright and said your honest opinion
  476. [10/25/2011 11:00:19 PM] Josh Amos: but like i said, these forums are confidental and only a merely 20 people who play competitive HoN have access
  477.  
  478. Josh Amos
  479. [10/25/2011 11:00:42 PM] Jason Lake: so it's your stance that the team members have not conducted themselves unprofessionally on public forums?
  480. [10/25/2011 11:01:06 PM] Jason Lake: I haven't looked yet but obviously it wouldn't be hard to verify by asking the right people for examples
  481. [10/25/2011 11:02:16 PM] Josh Amos: yes, i would say that we haven't conducted ourselves unprofessionally in the public eye
  482. [10/25/2011 11:02:38 PM] Josh Amos: we've had problems with NASL - admittedly, we should have been in much more contact with you
  483.  
  484. [10/25/2011 11:21:57 PM] Jason Lake: alot to investigate and figure out before we spend thousands of dollars at this point
  485.  
  486.  
  487. [10/25/2011 11:24:48 PM] Jason Lake: To be clear I'm not suggesting the squad is a failure or won't be great in the future.. but the combination of all this stuff / allegations we've recently been informed of has us in need of much more homework
  488.  
  489. Josh Amos
  490. [10/25/2011 11:25:58 PM] Jason Lake: You just seemed to be explaining your confidence for the future and I'm stating that I'm not arguing about it.. Our concern lies in the unprofessionalism accusations and the current record
  491.  
  492.  
  493. October 28th -
  494.  
  495. [10/28/2011 9:04:39 AM] Jason Bass: Josh we had every intent on sending you up until last saturday
  496.  
  497. [10/28/2011 9:05:53 AM] Jason Bass: then last saturday Phil and someone else specifically pulled Jason and I aside in person and told us a lot of things
  498. [10/28/2011 9:06:01 AM] Jason Bass: that were not pleasant to hear
  499. [10/28/2011 9:06:01 AM] Josh Amos: Oh ok
  500. [10/28/2011 9:06:04 AM] Josh Amos: i talked to phil this week
  501. [10/28/2011 9:06:15 AM] Josh Amos: and he apologized for how bad the administration of the tournament was
  502.  
  503. Let me make this clear so there's no mis-information going around.
  504.  
  505. 1. We were probably(99% sure) the most disconnected team from CompLexity - I wouldn't argue with that. Was that going to stop us from going to dreamhack? No, it wasn't.
  506. 2. Did both sides try all that hard to get connected? Honestly, no, but i'd say most of the fault would lie on us.
  507.  
  508. 3. If Phil didn't approach the CEO's of compLexity and completely slander our name the 22nd of October, we would be attending dreamhack.
  509.  
  510. And here's a conversation I had with Phil on October 21st where Phil is THREATENING me about posting about the silhouette situation - this was the night BEFORE blizzcon, yet he still approached Complexity's CEO's the day after to inform them of how bad mannered and unprofessional we are.
  511.  
  512.  
  513. Friday, October 21st, 2011.
  514. [10/21/2011 12:41:10 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: SO
  515. [10/21/2011 12:41:15 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: I read your post on the forums
  516. [10/21/2011 12:41:29 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: I have a feeling there is some misinformation going about
  517. [10/21/2011 12:41:46 AM] Josh Amos: you talk to me now that it's an issue
  518. [10/21/2011 12:41:50 AM] Josh Amos: ic
  519. [10/21/2011 12:41:55 AM] Josh Amos: and it reflects on you
  520. [10/21/2011 12:42:03 AM] Josh Amos: how convenient
  521. [10/21/2011 12:42:05 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: Well I can post SKype logs on the forums
  522. [10/21/2011 12:42:06 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: if you want
  523. [10/21/2011 12:42:16 AM] Josh Amos: and i can't?
  524. [10/21/2011 12:42:21 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: sure
  525. [10/21/2011 12:42:21 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: go ahead
  526. [10/21/2011 12:42:45 AM] Josh Amos: i was refraining from doing so out of respect for the tournament
  527. [10/21/2011 12:43:06 AM] Josh Amos: i can show them logs that clearly explain how you guys straight up lied to us or misinformed us
  528. [10/21/2011 12:43:17 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: If you want to get into a pissing match, be my guest. But you're going to make your team captain and your sponsor look very stupid in the process.
  529. [10/21/2011 12:43:44 AM] Josh Amos: no? i highly doubt that would happen
  530. [10/21/2011 12:44:27 AM] Josh Amos: i don't even know what you have that could POSSIBLY make us look stupider than you
  531. [10/21/2011 12:44:42 AM] Josh Amos: we have logs of you saying that you don't give a **** about fairness in a tournament
  532. [10/21/2011 12:44:54 AM] Josh Amos: and we also have logs of you straight up lying to us
  533. [10/21/2011 12:45:04 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: Show them to me
  534. [10/21/2011 12:45:09 AM] Josh Amos: i refuse
  535. [10/21/2011 12:45:09 AM] Josh Amos: why would i
  536. [10/21/2011 12:45:21 AM] Josh Amos: so you can formulate a defence?
  537. [10/21/2011 12:45:26 AM] Josh Amos: that's simply not logical, sorry.
  538. [10/21/2011 12:45:54 AM] Josh Amos: and i highly doubt i would do anything that our sponsor would consider making them look bad
  539. [10/21/2011 12:46:23 AM] Josh Amos: seeing as i back up everything i say with logic and rational whereas the logs i have against you guys, you clearly don't
  540. [10/21/2011 12:46:26 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: Ok, I'm going to bring him in
  541. [10/21/2011 12:46:27 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: to this convo
  542. [10/21/2011 12:47:03 AM] Josh Amos: ? what conversation?
  543. [10/21/2011 12:47:06 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: this one
  544. [10/21/2011 12:47:08 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: right here
  545. [10/21/2011 12:47:10 AM] Josh Amos: i don't plan on having one
  546. [10/21/2011 12:47:34 AM] Josh Amos: i've simply stated on the forums that the bug whether you like it or not
  547. [10/21/2011 12:47:42 AM] Josh Amos: had a great affect on the game
  548. [10/21/2011 12:47:50 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: Your team captain came to us and told us to look at the hero kill
  549. [10/21/2011 12:47:53 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: that the bug affected
  550. [10/21/2011 12:47:56 AM] Josh Amos: nope
  551. [10/21/2011 12:47:59 AM] Josh Amos: false
  552. [10/21/2011 12:48:10 AM] Josh Amos: we did at first
  553. [10/21/2011 12:48:19 AM] Josh Amos: then we found out about the silhouette bug and asked you to re-assess the situation
  554. [10/21/2011 12:48:27 AM] Josh Amos: that's why we got access to the replay
  555. [10/21/2011 12:48:28 AM] Josh Amos: to look for ourselves
  556. [10/21/2011 12:48:46 AM] Josh Amos: and then we clearly documented every piece of evidence that happened that game
  557. [10/21/2011 12:48:54 AM] Josh Amos: and breaky came on vent and looked at it
  558. [10/21/2011 12:49:55 AM] Josh Amos: do you think that we wouldn't bring this up or something?
  559. [10/21/2011 12:50:19 AM] Josh Amos: or rather the better question being
  560. [10/21/2011 12:50:37 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i dont know, i wasnt present for anything but the inital inquiry from Jah who brought up the hero kill
  561. [10/21/2011 12:50:42 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: everything else went through breaky apparently
  562. [10/21/2011 12:50:46 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: because this is the first i'm hearing
  563. [10/21/2011 12:50:49 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: of an additional review
  564. [10/21/2011 12:50:56 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: and vent convo
  565. [10/21/2011 12:51:00 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: or anything like that
  566. [10/21/2011 12:51:02 AM] Josh Amos: that's your fault as an admin then, not ours. We added a huge addition review
  567. [10/21/2011 12:51:15 AM] Josh Amos: the day after we looked in the bug complaints section
  568. [10/21/2011 12:51:23 AM] Josh Amos: and we found out that silhouette bug was not only with creeps
  569. [10/21/2011 12:51:27 AM] Josh Amos: so we asked breaky to look at it
  570. [10/21/2011 12:51:35 AM] Josh Amos: and he said that it was all same frame stuff
  571. [10/21/2011 12:51:49 AM] Josh Amos: and we said it wasn't and we would respectfully like to look at the replay ourselves to determine it
  572. [10/21/2011 12:52:13 AM] Josh Amos: because of this request, breaky told us that if the replay was leaked at all, we would be getting fined without doubt and we accepted that if it was leaked, we accept the fine
  573. [10/21/2011 12:52:36 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: hmm, again this is all new info to me
  574. [10/21/2011 12:52:41 AM] Josh Amos: upon looking at the replay, we documented every instance of it up to 32 minutes.
  575. [10/21/2011 12:52:52 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i had no idea any replays were given to any players
  576. [10/21/2011 12:52:59 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: so i guess that is "my" fault as an admin
  577. [10/21/2011 12:53:06 AM] Josh Amos: he said that he went over it before making the final decision
  578. [10/21/2011 12:53:29 AM] Josh Amos: not only that, upon him giving his decision to us as an admin, he brought up the players he polled
  579. [10/21/2011 12:53:36 AM] Josh Amos: and said that 1/7 only agreed to remake.
  580. [10/21/2011 12:53:49 AM] Josh Amos: so we were under the assumption that they knew about the entire situation
  581. [10/21/2011 12:54:04 AM] Josh Amos: however, upon further inspection and TALKING to the players polled themselves
  582. [10/21/2011 12:54:20 AM] Josh Amos: they had no idea it included creeps, and that many creeps to be infact, including the hero kills.
  583. [10/21/2011 12:54:34 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: ok
  584. [10/21/2011 12:54:38 AM] Josh Amos: so if you weren't involved in it, breaky blatantly lied to our face
  585. [10/21/2011 12:54:54 AM] Josh Amos: but that reflects on you as an admin as well.
  586. [10/21/2011 12:54:55 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: here's what i was informed: there was a hero kill that was missed out on
  587. [10/21/2011 12:55:50 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: in some aspects yes, but overall, not really: perhaps reflects on our communication as admins, but i dont understand how my ignorance puts me at fault
  588. [10/21/2011 12:56:00 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: either way
  589. [10/21/2011 12:56:08 AM] Josh Amos: this wasnt and isn't ever a pissing match
  590. [10/21/2011 12:56:16 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: this isn't about me saving face
  591. [10/21/2011 12:56:28 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: this is about me trying to communicate with you
  592. [10/21/2011 12:56:33 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: because you're the only level headed person
  593. [10/21/2011 12:56:38 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: in complexity
  594. [10/21/2011 12:56:45 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: and i want to know what went wrong
  595. [10/21/2011 12:56:53 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: because from MY end, you look really ****ed up
  596. [10/21/2011 12:56:56 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: and now that i know the whole story
  597. [10/21/2011 12:57:02 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: on YOUR end, I look really ****ed up
  598. [10/21/2011 12:57:06 AM] Josh Amos: that's convenient now, like i said, but you refused to answer me, breaky ignored my skype request
  599. [10/21/2011 12:57:19 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i always answer you
  600. [10/21/2011 12:57:28 AM] Josh Amos: don't kid yourself
  601. [10/21/2011 12:57:54 AM] Josh Amos: i have all of this documented obviously
  602. [10/21/2011 12:58:04 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: aside from you asking "have a high quality account you can share"
  603. [10/21/2011 12:58:06 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: in the last 30 days
  604. [10/21/2011 12:58:14 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: thats the only time I havent answered
  605. [10/21/2011 12:58:20 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: that i can see, again im on my laptop
  606. [10/21/2011 12:58:23 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: so i don thave the full logs
  607. [10/21/2011 12:58:28 AM] Josh Amos: i have the full logs
  608. [10/21/2011 12:58:28 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: because im in cali
  609. [10/21/2011 12:58:39 AM] Josh Amos: i can bring them up if necessary
  610. [10/21/2011 12:58:49 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i would like you to, for my own records
  611. [10/21/2011 12:58:50 AM] Josh Amos: the entire ordeal vs REAson you guys refused to communicate with us
  612. [10/21/2011 12:58:57 AM] Josh Amos: ok
  613. [10/21/2011 12:58:59 AM] Josh Amos: i will
  614. [10/21/2011 12:59:25 AM] Josh Amos: lol
  615. [10/21/2011 12:59:30 AM] Josh Amos: it's far too many messages to count
  616. [10/21/2011 12:59:38 AM] Josh Amos: i would need to take individual screenshots of them all
  617. [10/21/2011 1:00:10 AM] Josh Amos: i already have done that
  618. [10/21/2011 1:00:19 AM] Josh Amos: but i don't feel like locating them all
  619. [10/21/2011 1:00:43 AM] Josh Amos: how familiar does this specific instance sound
  620. [10/21/2011 1:01:15 AM] Josh Amos: well i dont know what breaky said in that instance, maybe msi was just being nice about it who knows, so what im going to do is wait for breaky to finish casting, just tell everyone who sit tight, i dont wanna make a ruling that causes conflict between admins and players
  621. [10/21/2011 1:01:28 AM] Josh Amos: yeah sounds good. we aren't playing on our home server with USE, we would prefer USW, but that's not available to us
  622. [10/21/2011 1:01:38 AM] Josh Amos: notice: 5:52 pm is the important part
  623. [10/21/2011 1:01:58 AM] Josh Amos: we've been waiting in the game over an hour till honcast was finished so any updates would be awesome
  624. [10/21/2011 1:02:18 AM] Josh Amos: let me make this clear
  625. [10/21/2011 1:02:29 AM] Josh Amos: you guys refuse to even talk to anyone other than jah or come in vent
  626. [10/21/2011 1:02:52 AM] Josh Amos: i have messages from the next few days where i attempt to message you as well to get this mess sorted out in an ordeal and timely fashion
  627. [10/21/2011 1:03:08 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: thats to me? i'll have to check up on it when i get home
  628. [10/21/2011 1:03:14 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i dont remember receiving the last 2 msgs
  629. [10/21/2011 1:03:17 AM] Josh Amos: [Tuesday, October 04, 2011 12:19 AM] Josh Amos:
  630.  
  631. <<< last night
  632. [10/21/2011 1:03:23 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: if thats the case then I am at fault
  633. [10/21/2011 1:03:24 AM] Josh Amos: **** it didnt copy the entire thing
  634. [10/21/2011 1:03:33 AM] Josh Amos: i have much more i was just copy and pasting excerpts
  635. [10/21/2011 1:03:37 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: right
  636. [10/21/2011 1:03:39 AM] Josh Amos: i was writing paragraphs to you the entire time
  637. [10/21/2011 1:03:43 AM] Josh Amos: and received no response
  638. [10/21/2011 1:03:45 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: ok
  639. [10/21/2011 1:03:51 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: well then i am at fault
  640. [10/21/2011 1:04:03 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: and i apologize even though its probably a bit too late
  641. [10/21/2011 1:04:13 AM] Josh Amos: it is too late it's far too late, your apology means nothing
  642. [10/21/2011 1:04:18 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: oh ok
  643. [10/21/2011 1:04:21 AM] Josh Amos: lol
  644. [10/21/2011 1:04:25 AM] Josh Amos: what do you expect me to say?
  645. [10/21/2011 1:04:29 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: nothing
  646. [10/21/2011 1:04:40 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i would be mad too
  647. [10/21/2011 1:04:50 AM] Josh Amos: you're only willing to talk to me when either A.) an issue arises that is brought to the public eye
  648. [10/21/2011 1:05:05 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: actually i wasnt going to say anything at all
  649. [10/21/2011 1:05:12 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: until i was prompted to by others
  650. [10/21/2011 1:05:29 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: because i havent been dealing with most of these issues
  651. [10/21/2011 1:05:44 AM] Josh Amos: you guys completely refused to talk or reason with any of us
  652. [10/21/2011 1:06:06 AM] Josh Amos: as the two tournament admins, that's completely ridiculous
  653. [10/21/2011 1:06:38 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: you need to remember, not that its an excuse, but remember that aside from adminning NASL, i also am responsible for Honcast as well as my family, and I am the coordinator for Dreamhack Winter and Hon Tour
  654. [10/21/2011 1:06:59 AM] Josh Amos: congratulations, that's good news for you
  655. [10/21/2011 1:07:08 AM] Josh Amos: however my parents have ran many successful businesses
  656. [10/21/2011 1:07:12 AM] Josh Amos: and i was trained to think business
  657. [10/21/2011 1:07:22 AM] Josh Amos: and that's what i was trained to think of as negligence
  658. [10/21/2011 1:10:24 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: well, businessed make money, breaky and i dont get paid to admin, host, cast or anything else fo the NASL
  659. [10/21/2011 1:10:51 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: aside for accomodations, we make no money from the NASL
  660. [10/21/2011 1:11:02 AM] Josh Amos: you get free trips to california and you were hired by S2 directly to fill this position
  661. [10/21/2011 1:11:08 AM] Josh Amos: the free trips part is irrelevant
  662. [10/21/2011 1:11:10 AM] Josh Amos: btw
  663. [10/21/2011 1:11:39 AM] Josh Amos: really you were just hired by S2 to be on the tournament commitee and as such it is your responsibility to step up in tournaments such as this
  664. [10/21/2011 1:12:30 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: Again, remember that we are 2 people doing everything for the competitive scene no matter how small or big
  665. [10/21/2011 1:12:46 AM] Josh Amos: doing everything?
  666. [10/21/2011 1:13:09 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: on the back end, yes
  667. [10/21/2011 1:13:28 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i could tell you more, but i'd be breaking a few NDA's i have signed
  668. [10/21/2011 1:13:55 AM] Josh Amos: cut both your salaries 1/3rd you have 1/3rd more the time for other things and 1 extra person to help
  669. [10/21/2011 1:14:00 AM] Josh Amos: to ensure quality issues are dealt with
  670. [10/21/2011 1:14:10 AM] Josh Amos: obviously i realize that its not a feasible request
  671. [10/21/2011 1:14:21 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: we are currently bringing in more people
  672. [10/21/2011 1:15:16 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: and if i cut my salary by a 3rd i wouldnt be able to provide for my self, let alone the 2 other people i solely provide for
  673. [10/21/2011 1:15:28 AM] Josh Amos: like i said it's obviously not a feasible request
  674. [10/21/2011 1:15:34 AM] Josh Amos: considering you're use to your lifestyle
  675. [10/21/2011 1:15:40 AM] Josh Amos: however the time freed up could be spent on other things
  676. [10/21/2011 1:15:50 AM] Josh Amos: to make the money that you lack from that
  677. [10/21/2011 1:15:57 AM] Josh Amos: and you would have less responsibility
  678. [10/21/2011 1:17:15 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: well i dont disagree
  679. [10/21/2011 1:17:38 AM] Josh Amos: but again these issues that we had simply required a few minutes of your time
  680. [10/21/2011 1:18:03 AM] Josh Amos: i have multiple logs of me asking you to set up a time where we could discuss things rationally
  681. [10/21/2011 1:18:11 AM] Josh Amos: i said i was available whenever you were
  682. [10/21/2011 1:18:16 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: well its a learning experience for me
  683. [10/21/2011 1:18:26 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: also, i wont use vent to discuss anything, for obvious reasons
  684. [10/21/2011 1:18:41 AM] Josh Amos: yeah i support that completely
  685. [10/21/2011 1:18:56 AM] Josh Amos: for obvious reasons:log
  686. [10/21/2011 1:19:04 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: also, you have to remember that your teammates were responsible for DDOS'ing me a few months ago
  687. [10/21/2011 1:19:52 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: so thats another reason why I prefer skype, since its easy to pull an IP off vent
  688. [10/21/2011 1:20:00 AM] Josh Amos: are you kidding me
  689. [10/21/2011 1:20:19 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: about what
  690. [10/21/2011 1:20:42 AM] Josh Amos: what you just said and its logical inconsistency
  691. [10/21/2011 1:21:06 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i guess..
  692. [10/21/2011 1:21:08 AM] Josh Amos: first and foremost
  693. [10/21/2011 1:21:17 AM] Josh Amos: i would like to state that noone on my team ddos'd you at all
  694. [10/21/2011 1:21:29 AM] Josh Amos: second, it was someone from zakus stream chat
  695. [10/21/2011 1:21:39 AM] Josh Amos: zaku didnt give your IP or whatever
  696. [10/21/2011 1:21:55 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i see
  697. [10/21/2011 1:22:06 AM] Josh Amos: and last and most importantly
  698. [10/21/2011 1:22:23 AM] Josh Amos: i already said that coming on vent would be bad for both parties for the sake of not having logs
  699. [10/21/2011 1:22:35 AM] Josh Amos: and support you and your reasoning for not coming on it
  700. [10/21/2011 1:22:38 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: right
  701. [10/21/2011 1:22:53 AM] Josh Amos: so that is totally irrelevant
  702. [10/21/2011 1:22:58 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: right
  703. [10/21/2011 1:26:31 AM] Josh Amos: anyways, for the record, i don't plan on doing anything that will incriminate our relationship with complexity and i expect they'll have full support and backing for fairplay, consistency and communication to and from tournament admins, which has been my goal from the minute i started messaging you
  704. [10/21/2011 1:27:49 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: Well I feel like I know more about the situation at hand
  705. [10/21/2011 1:28:05 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: So, regardless of intentions, this chat has been informative
  706. [10/21/2011 1:28:09 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: to me
  707. [10/21/2011 1:34:39 AM] Josh Amos: all i can do is hope that what you just said is sincere and honest. however, like i said and like you know, that has no effect on us now that the deeds have already been done and from my perspective it seems empty and it appears like you're hoping this resolves things. however, to say that it does resolve things would be a false inquiry
  708. [10/21/2011 1:38:55 AM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: I dont expect it to resolve anything, what happened sucks no matter what I say now. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure I give the players more attention in the future. NASL was more or less a testing ground and we all learned a lot, but with much bigger tournaments on the way it's important to get all our ducks in a row.
  709.  
  710.  
  711.  
  712. And here's some more on Phil's style of administrating when we were bringing up the server issues with NASL servers that is directed specifically at us.
  713.  
  714. [10/5/2011 10:22:15 PM] Matthew "jaH" Penaroza: [Wednesday, October 05, 2011 10:21 PM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller:
  715.  
  716. <<< Please note that we are merely attempting to gain feedback, and that we ultimately reserve all rights to make any changes to servers. As a team you are not entitled to anything in this league, you were invited and as such can be removed. Playing in the NASL is a priveledge and any team who isn't happy with the way things are being run is free to leave at any time. Also remember that you represent your sponsor when you make any decisions or make any statement in this chat or in public and we will hold you to them. Thanks.
  717.  
  718. [10/5/2011 10:27:45 PM] Matthew "jaH" Penaroza: [Wednesday, October 05, 2011 10:25 PM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller:
  719.  
  720. <<< well im getting pretty tired of people trying to lawyer their way into advantages or whatever in this league
  721. ultimately we're doing it for the teams and the players, to promote HoN in a positive light
  722. and with breaky and I doing literally 100% of the grunt work and now the casting, it would be nice if breaky didnt get a pm every day about some other bullshit thing
  723.  
  724. [10/5/2011 10:29:04 PM] Matthew "jaH" Penaroza: [Wednesday, October 05, 2011 10:28 PM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller:
  725.  
  726. <<< again if you read the player contracts, the admins have the right to change or update any rule. sometimes things may seem to favor certain teams, but in the end we are doing what is the best for the league as a whole. not giving any team an advantage because we like them better.
  727.  
  728. On another note, I do want to thank the teams so far for providing ****ing awesome matches and help making this a fun event to cast at least
  729. [4:30:50 PM] Phil "The Thrill" Haller: i've been an admin for a long ass time so i know its typical to go underappreciated. but the players need to remember your job in this league is to SHOW UP AND PLAY. how ****ing hard is that? show up, play the goddamn game and then you're done for the week. we literally do everything in the background.
  730.  
  731.  
  732. As I finish writing this, I wonder how I can conclude... something.. like this. Let me be clear; it never makes me happy to bring problems anyone's way or spend as much time as I did on this. I was actually debating posting anything about NASL and HoN because I simply didn't think it would be worth my time. When I watched the latest podcast and the way they tried to spin things, I just couldn't let it stand. I've always thought Phil is a bully, and I've always viewed him as a bully any time i'd seen him on honcast. He manipulates his way in and through any situations in order to achieve what he wants - and when he wants it. A friend of mine once told me Phil was a meddling twat who couldn't mind his own business, even though I didn't believe him at first because I like to make my own opinions of people, I do now.
  733.  
  734. Bringing private conversations to light isn't something I ever wish to do, nor does it feel good on the conscience. I whole-heartedly wanted HoN to grow as a game, and I was looking forward to being a role model to a community already in the gutter.
  735.  
  736. There's history of him trying to prevent ANOTHER team from going to dreamhack - but that story isn't mine to tell, and as such, I won't speak any more on the issue.
  737.  
  738. I guess I can just end this in a classic manner like many before me.. Look at what's presented before you, form your own opinions and beliefs and don't be afraid to stick by them.
  739.  
  740. I tried to keep personal opinion / bias / past experiences between honcast/DWI out of it as much as possible and just present the facts.
  741.  
  742. CompLexity was put in a very difficult situation, especially with a snake poisoning their minds about us and while I'm very disappointed to not be attending dreamhack winter, I still respect the compLexity organization and what they do very much.
  743.  
  744. To all our fans: Thanks for supporting us, I'm sure many of us will still be in the HoN/DotA2 scene. It's unfortunate we aren't going to DHW over such petty issues and I apologize for giving you guys false hope.
  745.  
  746.  
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