A Meeting of Refugees

Silas Maynard says, "As we're all aware, Shallam became a theocratic Caliphate after spending  centuries as a democratic Sultanate."

Halos nods.

Halos sits down.

Silas Maynard says, "With the tragic death of the Te'Serra, and the return of the Lightbringer and the Righteous Fire, I personally believe that the theocracy should remain in place in the new city."

Silas Maynard says, "Their Light is what guides us, and I believe that to turn away from that would be foolish."

Huyen nods his head at Silas.

Tesha nods her head in agreement.

Silas Maynard says, "But who would like to speak first and offer their thoughts?"

Tanaar raises his hand in the air.

Silas nods his head at Tanaar.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "You're right, we have operated as a strictly democratic city, and we've operated as a rigid theocracy."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Neither were particularly successful."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "The former was rife with populism, corruption, and laxity."

Master Garis "The Jinx" Obuun, Elysian White Tiger says, "Not to mention I doubt They would have otherwise, who knows better how to lead the forces of Good."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "The latter failed to have sufficient transparency or comprehensive communication to respond well to the needs of the times. It was too rigid."

Huyen says to Tanaar in a deep, bellowing voice, "I have to disagree with that last bit. Unless I missed a particular bit behind the scenes, I felt They were plenty transparent before the end."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "I propose that a better model is a blend of the two, with a degree of representation, well-regulated by our Patron and Matron."

Tanaar says to Huyen in a deep voice, "I refer not to the Te'Serra, but to the Citadel and its mortal leaders."

Huyen sucks thoughtfully on his teeth.

Master Garis "The Jinx" Obuun, Elysian White Tiger says to Tanaar, "Isn't that what the Citadel was suppose to be for though? to regulate that representation?"

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "The Citadel is gone and an equivalent will not be instated."

Silas Maynard says, "In truth, I agree with Tanaar. The lack of transparency in the Citadel played a big part in why it did not succeed."

Silas Maynard says, "You only have to look at the average age of its members to see that such a model was not sustainable."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "What the Citadel was intended to do and what the Citadel did were two different things. The failures of communication and fiat decisions proved it failed in its purpose."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "That doesn't mean that a future full theocracy without a Citadel would fail."

Huyen nods his head at Thaumas.

Learyn purses her lips, deep in thought.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "The 'full theocracy' preceding the Citadel had the same problems."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "In general, when the theocracy was well-regulated by the Te'Serra, it worked just fine."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "But when Their attention to this plane waned, it faltered."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "There was the Church, and parallel leadership, which is a similar issue."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "There will be no Church."

Silas Maynard says, "I do think a rigid theocracy under the Lightbringer and the Righteous Fire would have a chance at working, but-- yes, exactly."

Halos sips from a cup of dark New Hope tea.

Tanaar inclines his head politely at Silas.

Silas Maynard says, "We cannot hope that Their attention will always be focused on us."

Ysebelle nods her head at Silas.

Learyn raises her hand in the air.

Silas nods his head at Learyn.

Halos nods his head at Silas, showing his acceptance.

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "I admit to not being present for much of the Caliphate state of Shallam. That being said, I see no issues with a theocracy as long as there are checks and balances to ensure that the citizenry are heard rather than ignored, no matter the age, popularity, house or class."

Tanaar nods his head at Learyn.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Checks and balances, aye."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "We also need a leader, not a tyrant."

Silas nods his head at Learyn.

Lady Lyndee Faelithar, Mourning's Voice says, "If I could?"

Learyn nods her head at Lyndee.

Silas nods his head at Lyndee.

Lady Lyndee Faelithar, Mourning's Voice says, "The greatest problem the pre-Citadel Caliphate faced was, in fact, a lack of leadership outside of the Caliph himself. Ministers and Viziers got by, doing very little to help the City."

Lady Lyndee Faelithar, Mourning's Voice says, "Those that should have been most responsible for echoing citizens feelings up to the government and government's will down to the citizenry did not do that job."

Lady Lyndee Faelithar, Mourning's Voice says, "And the government, and City, listlessly drifted along as a result."

Silas nods his head at Lyndee.

Darroth nods his head emphatically.

Lady Lyndee Faelithar, Mourning's Voice says, "Checks and balances are all well and good, but if we decentralize power and responsibility too much we have to have a really, really good way to keep a much larger number of people accountable."

Learyn purses her lips, deep in thought.

Learyn nods her head at Lyndee.

Lady Lyndee Faelithar, Mourning's Voice says, "I'd be interested to hear what strategies or suggestions you might have to keep us from careening into the same hole we've been in before."

Tanaar looks about himself, rubbing his chin thoughtfully.

Tanaar raises his hand in the air.

Silas nods his head at Tanaar.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Assignments."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Have each Viziership, or whatever we call them, responsible for an area of city operations."

Learyn nods her head at Tanaar.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Not like the Ministers, whose purview is quite narrow."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "A broader authority, where progress or stalling is visible."

Tesha raises her hand in the air.

Silas Maynard says, "One problem with that is that each new ruling council member might be better suited to a different assignment than their predecessor. Keeping the assignments fluid is all well and good, but it doesn't much help transparency."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "For example, one of the positions would be adjutant to the armed forces, coordinating with the Ministers of War, Security, and Maritime affairs all of our defensive and offensive actions."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "You make a good point."

Silas Maynard says, "Tesha?"

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Perhaps the problem is better articulated as the fact that the Viziers had little or no clearly-defined responsibilities."

Comprehension flashes across Silas's face.

Silas nods his head at Tanaar.

Silas Maynard says, "That's true enough."

Tanaar tilts his head and listens intently to Tesha.

Tesha says shyly in a demure, mellifluous voice, "I only spent a few years in Shallam, while some of you spent most of your lives there. I do not know much about governments, or what worked or did not work, only what I have seen in these last few years, and what I understand of us mortals."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "No matter how pure the heart, lust for power can stir people, and I believe that is what some refer to when they speak of the politics that slowly strangled Shallam, and held us back."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "My faith in Them is unshakable, as many of yours is. If you need proof of this, just look to what we accomplished during the great battle of Nishnatoba after They asked us to prepare. Look how we have driven our enemies from this island without any guards but our own blades, as the Lord and the Lady encouraged us."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "The government I would like would be under Them - where elections and politics were minimalised, and They chose leaders who would best understand They will - even when it is left unspoken."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "By putting our faith first, citizens should recognise that They know best, and should trust in Them. I may be misunderstanding, but some of what I have heard sounds like the results of elections and politics - perhaps those who were in power simply to be in power."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "I do not think They would place such politically-minded peoples in power, and I think that They would put those in power who would do They will, and would do what they are supposed to. I believe that They will make it very well known to those They choose what They expect of them."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "If Their chosen do not do as they should, I have faith in Them that it will be corrected, and somebody more fitting will take their place."

Tesha purses her lips, deep in thought.

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "That is all. I have faith that They know at least part of what troubles Shallam had, and that our input will help Them create a city where we do not suffer the troubles we did before."

Tesha purses her lips, deep in thought as she contemplates Tanaar.

Silas Maynard says, "While I don't disagree that They should have final say, I think that fails to take into account the fact that Their attention is required for things far above the mundane workings of day to day city life. As well, Their attention will not always be on this plane, as I'm sure we all realise from our experiences with the Te'Serra."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "Should Their attention drift, I believe Their chosen will do well. I do not think Their attention will drift shortly after the founding of the new, glorious city, and I do not think They will abandon us to our own devices."

Tesha considers thoughtfully a few moments, choosing her words carefully.

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "Even so, They cannot and should not be expected to watch every moment to make sure that our noses are clean."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "We should be expected to do that ourselves."

Silas nods his head at Learyn.

Ysebelle raises her hand.

Tesha smiles softly.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "If we accept the reality that They will likely not always be able to give us Their full attention, then it makes more sense to put in place a mortal government that functions under Their approval and Their veto, rather than relying entirely on Their will."

Lyr nods his head at Tanaar, showing his acceptance.

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "My only worry is the new city becoming strangled with politics in the case of Their attention dwindling."

You raise an eyebrow questioningly.

You raise your hand in the air.

Silas Maynard says, "Ysebelle, then Chord."

Seraph Ysebelle Bravedale says quietly, "Well.. just as a thought, I think we could have a mortal representative leader as well as a divinely chosen one?"

Learyn says to Ysebelle in a slow, drawling voice, "A dual leadership?"

Halos shakes his head.

Silas tilts his head curiously at Ysebelle.

Tanaar looks about himself, rubbing his chin thoughtfully.

Seraph Ysebelle Bravedale says, "That way, our people have a.. say. And we have two hands at the helm."

Silas Maynard says, "Shared power, do you mean?"

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Or a spiritual pontiff and a temporal leader."

Seraph Ysebelle Bravedale says, "Instead of having one head of the city.. we have two. One chosen by the divine and one... yes."

Ysebelle nods her head at Tanaar.

Ysebelle nibbles on her lip.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "There's potential for unnecessary conflict and complicated procedure."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "Can we expect people to remain mature enough for such?"

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "No."

Halos grunts noncommittally.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "Yes, but not for all of the future leaders."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "I really don't think so either. The problem with shared power is that it is never truly shared."

Silas Maynard says, "I wouldn't be in favour of a dual power structure. The city should run under one voice."

Seraph Ysebelle Bravedale says, "There is, but there is a chance for growth as well."

You nod your head at Silas, showing your acceptance.

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "I worry that that would create a conflict between a leader voicing Their will, and a leader voicing the will of the people. It may fracture us."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "We had a dual leadership, spiritual and political at one point. We called them Archprelate and Sultan."

Silas Maynard says, "At the first sign of disagreement, the forward direction of the city would cease."

Ysebelle nods her head in acceptance.

Seraph Ysebelle Bravedale says, "I see. As I said, it was a thought."

Father Lyr Darion, Caefir Archpriest asks, "Would the city really desire to move against the will of our Patrons?"

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "May I quote Lord Deucalion."

Learyn smiles softly at Ysebelle.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "Quote, 'There will be no dual leadership structure.'"

Ysebelle blushes furiously.

Halos nods at Thaumas.

Tanaar tilts his head and listens intently to Chord.

Silas nods his head at Chord.

Chord looks to Silas, then begins with a nod.

Chord says, "It's a foregone conclusion that the new City will operate under the orders and missives of the Bloodsworn Gods, so I want to speak on how I believe the mortal government would best be served."

Silas smiles softly.

Chord says in a clear, concise voice, "Shallam of the past had two major problems that I heard and saw."

Chord says in a clear, concise voice, "The first was the discontentment of the citizenry. A lot of different people had a lot of different ideas on what the city should be. Those that disagreed with the way things were being ran remained within the city and allowed their caustic attitudes to infect others, instead of leaving to find a place that better suits their ideals. This is due in large part to our origins as one of the original cities, rather than a city dedicated purely to a cause."

Chord says in a gentle, yet blunt voice, "The second issue was the lack of direction for the city. Yes, we were the city of Light and that worked for quite a while, but it allowed for a lot of stagnation, disinterest, and dissent to breed within the ranks. The people of Shallam do so well under direction, but faltered when left to their own devices -- as our areas of interest stretched in so many different ways."

Tanaar nods his head at you, showing his acceptance.

Chord says, "My proposed solution is to change up the manner in which we think of the new government. Instead of thinking of setting up our government in the traditional manner, I propose that our Government be set up akin to an Army. We are led under the martial prowess of Lady Aurora and Lord Deucalion, with their appointed leader as Commander-in-Chief to handle the execution of their orders. Then we will have traditional setup in the form of a chain of command -- captains, vice-captains, ordered ranks, common soldiers, new recruits."

Learyn purses her lips, deep in thought.

Halos smiles softly.

You say, "This will solve both issues. The culture of a military will do much for the direction of a city of Good, as emphasis is placed upon following orders and believing in the cause. Likewise, potential citizens will be much more cautious and committed if they're aware of the gravity of joining an Army of Good, opposed to an idle city. An Army will always have a purpose, and it would take our different specialties and focus them on singular goals so that we may accomplish much under the direction of our new Divine leaders."

Silas looks about himself, rubbing his chin thoughtfully.

Thaumas raises his hand in the air.

Tanaar nods thoughtfully.

Silas nods his head at Thaumas.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "Do you think it's possible to re-train our functioning in such a way which is fitting for a fully disciplined army? Strict hierarchy, not questioning orders, full respect of someone else's authority?"

Tanaar raises his hand in the air.

Silas Maynard says to Chord, "I'll let you respond, then Tanaar."

Chord nods his head at Silas.

Chord says, "Yes, I do believe that is possible. Many of our citizens could use a dose of humility, and this would be a proper method for doing so. The city of the past saw the fall of many, many powerful soldiers of Light whose hubris brought them to their knees and below. If we had such a setup, I could easily see us being significantly more effective and cohesive."

Thaumas's mouth turns up as his face breaks into a smile.

Thaumas thanks Chord profusely.

Chord's mouth turns up as his face breaks into a smile.

Silas nods his head at Tanaar.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Quite honestly, I think an attempt to organize the Remnant into a strict military hierarchy would fail utterly. At best, we would fracture and lose a greater part than you expect to competing hierarchies. In short, we are not organized enough -right now- to consider such a drastic change. A more gradual shift would be more successful, rather than an abrupt and massive one."

Chord looks to Silas for permission to speak.

Halos shares a look with Thaumas, nodding once.

Silas Maynard says to Chord, "Of course, of course."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "The change you're proposing isn't a bad one, indeed a more military structure is one I'd considered too. People are not accustomed to thinking that way."

Silas Maynard says, "I have my own thoughts on this as well."

Chord says to Tanaar, "I disagree with that. We are forging a brand new city of Light -- it should not be a gradual process. I assure you, the sinking of our fair city was far from gradual. If there was any time to institute such an organization, it should be as we are tossing aside the shackles of what it meant to be Shallamese. We would, regrettably, lose citizenry. However, we would build the foundation for pure Growth, instead of risking infection with the taint of discontent over time."

Halos nods his head at Chord, showing his acceptance.

Chord says, "Those who were meant to march with Lord Deucalion and Lady Aurora will find their way back to us, those who will not have a safe haven in Cyrene where they can accept refuge."

Tanaar ponders Chord's words, and nods.

Silas Maynard says, "One thing I was say is that many people in Shallam attempted to run for power on a similar platform such of yours, of adherence to military structure and ideals, and I don't think one of them succeeded."

Tesha raises her hand in the air.

Silas Maynard says, "This isn't to say that it's an inherently flawed idea, as of course such rigid discipline has its place and its uses. But an army is being formed already for the Light in the Aarash Kheyr, the Order of the Lightbringer."

Silas Maynard says, "I'm not sure that I'd like to see the city following a similar model. There are many ways, let us not forget, of serving the Light. Not all of them are militant, but all of them are valid. I think too much emphasis on militancy would upset that balance."

Learyn nods her head at Silas.

Ysebelle nods her head at Silas.

Halos grunts noncommittally.

Chord asks, "If I may?"

Silas Maynard says, "Of course."

Silas Maynard says, "And then Tesha I believe had something to say as well."

Thaumas raises his hand in the air.

Chord says, "I think that too many people view a military as only the sum of its offensive and defensive actions -- it's much more than that. An army is not made up merely of soldiers. There are divisions that supply, those that educate, those that lead the spirituality of the Army. Not everyone would have to march on the Cities of Evil, Chaos, and Darkness, but all would be required to aid in their destruction."

Chord and say, "That being said, it was merely an idea, and I'm more than welcome to hearing others."

Learyn sucks thoughtfully on her teeth.

Silas Maynard says, "No, absolutely, I agree. But I think when you talk of raising an army, it sets people in mind of a certain singular view. It's not a bad viewpoint, by any means, but it would have an effect on people's perceptions of the city."

You nod your head at Silas, showing your acceptance.

Tanaar nods his head at Silas, showing his acceptance.

Silas Maynard says, "Tesha?"

Silas Maynard says, "Then Thaumas, I believe."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "We must remember that not everyone is comfortable wielding a blade - taking a life is a heavy burden. I myself had nightmares after my first kill, though I have gotten used to it now. I support what Silas said about there being other ways of serving the Light, but we must also take into consideration what we call this, if we do go through with it."

You nod your head at Tesha, showing your acceptance.

Halos gives Tesha a concerned look.

Halos raises his hand in the air.

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "Perception is everything, we must be careful not to call it militant if we use this form. Those who do not wish to fight, but still serve the Light would be alienated by that."

Thaumas says to Halos in a slightly lisping voice, "Go ahead."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "I'll say my thought after you."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "You may call an emotion depression, or being sad, and both have the same connotation. One is much more severe and brings a deeper understanding, though."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "I am finished."

Silas nods his head at Halos.

Halos looks about himself, rubbing his chin thoughtfully.

Father Halos Vorondil says, ""Militant" is simply a word."

Father Halos Vorondil says, "What we are are fighters, and have slowly become, whether we like the life or no."

Silas looks about himself, rubbing his chin thoughtfully.

Father Halos Vorondil says, "I would like to echo Justiciar Chord's point, that it is not a lifestyle devoid of creativity, stability, or supporting interests. Actively taking up arms against the enemies of Creation has been our primary focus, whether we realized it or not."

Father Halos Vorondil says, "There is no life of peace for the servants of the Light."

Chord nods his head at Halos, showing his acceptance.

Tanaar applauds Halos' words.

Thaumas nods his head in agreement.

Father Halos Vorondil says, "With that being said, a clearer chain of command and order of responsibilities may be helpful to support and augment this ... lifestyle."

Tesha says carefully in a demure, mellifluous voice, "There are different degrees of dedication to the blade, though, as well as different methods of which to be of assistance. As much as I love the idea of our entire city being trained to be as strong as possible, I do not think it is a realistic goal."

Darroth stares implacably at Tesha.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "And thus, the gods created Cyrene."

Silas's eyes sparkle with amusement.

Chord says to Tesha, "Not everyone would be trained to kill. I don't think you quite understand our words."

Tanaar raises his hand in the air.

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "What I understood from Father Halos' words was that it would be mandatory to kill. Is that not what was meant?"

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "My turn."

Chord shakes his head at Tesha.

Silas Maynard says, "One more thing I will say is that, while I agree with Halos, it is at its heart a temporal view. Our fight is not over - in many ways it is only just begun - but the ideals of Light are more than just to oppose our enemies. We must cast down, yes, but when the bloodshed is done, we must also be ready to rebuild."

Zenui nods his head at Silas.

Tesha nods her head at Silas, showing her acceptance.

Silas Maynard says, "Creation will be reborn under Their banner. Is an army necessarily the best way to rebuild it?"

Silas Maynard says, "But my apologies, Thaumas, please go ahead."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "Perhaps I've interpreted this proposal slightly differently. City's government would not -be- an army in that its purpose, of course, would not just be to wield martial power, but -would- borrow some aspects from military discipline. It is silly, after all, to enforce it on cultural projects, for example. But I believe ministry aides should answer to ministers, and ministers to the leader, and leader to our Gods in the same way lower ranks answer to those above them in the military context."

Silas Maynard says, "That sounds much as it should have worked in Shallam."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "Excellence must be encouraged in order to flourish. Discipline is likely a less optimal, but necessary way."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "Should and have being the operative words there."

Silas inclines his head politely at Learyn.

Silas Maynard smiles and says, "True enough."

Learyn says to Silas in a slow, drawling voice, "If I may once Thaumas has finished?"

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "I'm finished."

Silas Maynard says, "Tanaar had something to say, I believe."

Comprehension flashes across Learyn's face.

Learyn nods her head emphatically.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "I was going to comment on the idea of required military service with a bit of my own story. Personally, I dislike combat. I've never been very much good at it, and even long training hasn't improved that much above basic competency. Quite frankly, I'd prefer to curl up with a dusty old tome or go fishing. But it's my job, godsdammit. Fighting for what we believe in is absolutely essential to what it meant to be Shallamese, and absolutely must be a part of who we become. If I wanted to believe in Goodness but not get my hands dirty, I'd have become a Cyrenian."

Silas nods his head at Tanaar.

Chord nods his head at Tanaar.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "We do not need another city where combat is viewed as optional."

Thaumas nods his head in agreement.

Halos nods his head affirmatively.

Havyn nods her head emphatically.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "I agree."

Darroth nods his head emphatically.

Davio nods his head in agreement.

Sir Darroth Vallah says, "Any that refuse to take up arms in the name of Good or Light should not be allowed access to the new city."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Be a scholar, focus your life on your faith, but when push comes to shove, drop the book and run to the fight."

Silas Maynard says, "Couldn't agree more."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "The thing is, there's nothing saying you can't heal during defending."

Father Halos Vorondil says, "Hear, hear."

Sir Achilles, Templar Emeritus says to Darroth, "Well some exceptions could be granted for the young."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "It's just another way of fighting."

Sir Achilles, Templar Emeritus says to Darroth, "But otherwise I agree in principle."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "There's nothing saying you can't run for supplies if you're young."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "Or hold pilgrimages for those on offense, et cetera."

Tanaar says to Achilles in a deep voice, "Of course. I speak of those that are competent, not those still in training."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "What of the little ones? What of those who are not mighty enough to do much but get in the way? Shall they be cast aside, because they cannot swing a blade as hard as you can?"

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "Many ways to aide the fight."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "No."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "They can run for supplies, inks, arrows, et cetera."

Thaumas says to Tesha in a slightly lisping voice, "Even Mhaldor is lenient when inexperienced are concerned."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "It helps them learn what they'll need when they start."

Tanaar says to Tesha in a deep voice, "Novices have always been exempt, and most Houses forbade them from direct combat until they were ready."

Darroth nods his head at Tanaar.

Thaumas says to Tesha in a slightly lisping voice, "Even their citizens are first expected to learn how to fight before they do it."

Silas Maynard says, "I often tend to see more enthusiasm in our youth for the battles we face than in some of their elders."

Learyn nods her head emphatically.

Tanaar nods his head at Silas.

Silas Maynard says, "Significantly elder, in some cases."

Learyn purses her lips, deep in thought.

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "I believe everyone should be encouraged to fight, and encouraged to help. Encouragement from Them strengthened me significantly. But requiring it is different from encouraging it."

Sir Darroth Vallah says, "All will be required to, save the novices."

Havyn nods her head at Darroth.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Lack of a requirement will simply allow those who are weak in commitment an excuse."

Silas Maynard says, "It is a requirement of your service to Creation to stand against its enemies."

You nod your head at Tanaar.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "What excuse do you have, Tesha, while Occultists threaten Creation, and sacrifice children, not to stand up against them?"

Silas Maynard says, "If we fail to adhere to that in the new city, we are failing in our duty."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "I do not speak of myself, I would destroy them. I speak of those who are too timid to speak for themselves."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "I speak of those who will simply leave us instead of voicing their opinions, of those who agree with those they like."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "If I might?"

Sir Darroth Vallah says, "Then they will refuge in Cyrene or some other place."

Huyen nods his head affirmatively at Darroth.

Tanaar nods his head at Darroth.

Silas Maynard says, "None should be timid in the Light. As Tanaar said, Cyrene was created as a haven for the meek and the timid."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "I think we all agree that it is cruel and impractical to push the inexperienced into battle. That will not happen."

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "It is what you are saying. "Be strong, or get out.""

Learyn purses her lips, deep in thought.

You shake your head at Tesha.

Halos shakes his head at Tesha.

Aktillum shakes his head.

Silas Maynard says, "It is not, Tesha."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "No, no. There are -many- ways to be strong."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "We're saying 'Try, or get out'"

Ysebelle ponders the situation.

Halos nods his head affirmatively at Tanaar.

You say, "Be willing to become strong with us, Tesha."

Silas nods his head at Tanaar.

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "So long as the distinction is made."

Silas Maynard says, "Learyn?"

Tesha says in a demure, mellifluous voice, "I have grown much. Again, I do not speak of myself."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "What I wished to say was in response to Tesha mostly."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "I used to be one of those timid ones, the ones who don't like to fight, the ones who would rather be out in the world."

Sir Darroth Vallah says, "Shallam's tolerance of apathy and indifference is what led to such stagnation within the city."

Chord nods his head at Darroth, showing your acceptance.

Thaumas tilts his head and listens intently to Learyn.

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "Upon my return, it's thanks to people like Silas, Darroth, Sothantos and such and my beginning to look up to them that led me to see what I could be."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "In that way, we lead by example."

Silas smiles softly.

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "I am no great solo combatant, I never will be, but I will never fight alone."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "Did I not help, too?"

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "I have my bow and I will snipe the living heck out of people."

Lyr beams broadly at Learyn.

Silas grins mischievously at Thaumas.

Darroth utters a deep, rumbling laugh.

Learyn says to Thaumas in a slow, drawling voice, "Absolutely."

"Ok!" Thaumas exclaims.

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "However, there are many ways to be strong."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "There is strategy, logistics.."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "We don't just need brutes, we need minds."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "Everything, from small to big."

Thaumas raises his hand in the air.

Learyn says to Thaumas in a slow, drawling voice, "Almost done."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "Everyone can fight. We have people who may only know basics, but they can heal using devotion, spirituality, healing.."

Learyn says to Tesha in a slow, drawling voice, "We have people who can resurrect, do refills, et cetera."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "That's fighting, but indirectly. Some people may not go on offense, but stay in defense only."

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "You don't lose hardly anything that way."

Learyn shrugs helplessly.

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "Not that I consider dying for the Light a loss."

Silas tells you, "I think with Thaumas we'll be done. I'll be bringing us back on track, but I think this tangent has been a productive one."

Learyn waves her hand dismissively.

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "That's just my personal feelings."

Learyn nods her head at Thaumas.

Silas Maynard says, "Thaumas, then, and then we'll come back to the city's governance and structure."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "I think we will all agree that a life devoted to combat and combat only is a life wasted. But while we all may have different interests, will to stand up to what threatens Creation should be something which unites us. This, by necessity, includes combat. I am not saying that new city's focus should be combat -- it merely has to be a universally embraced duty."

Tanaar nods his head at Thaumas.

Silas nods his head at Thaumas.

Learyn nods her head at Thaumas.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "End of thought, let's proceed."

Silas's mouth turns up as his face breaks into a smile.

Silas Maynard says, "Going back briefly, then, I'd like to give a little further thought to Ysebelle's proposal."

Ysebelle blinks.

Silas Maynard says, "While I don't think a dual leadership is quite the way to go, I do think it's a good idea to have more than one person involved in deciding the direction for the city."

Silas Maynard says, "One person should be in charge of that decision, but one thought might be to empower the mortal representatives of the Lightbringer and the Righteous Fire in some way."

Learyn raises her hand in the air.

Thaumas raises his hand in the air.

Silas Maynard says, "While They would have absolute authority over the city, perhaps Their mortal voices might be afforded a position on the Council."

Silas nods his head at Learyn.

Realization strikes Chord's features as he nods to Silas in approval.

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "I think that perfectly reasonable. The mortal heads of each Order upon the council along with whomever else is chosen. Though, would it be house leaders filling the rest or elected representatives?"

Tanaar raises his hand in the air.

Learyn nods her head at Thaumas.

Silas Maynard says, "As I see it, Shallam stagnated under House rule."

Silas Maynard says, "And further still under the Citadel."

Silas Maynard says, "Politically speaking, that is."

Tanaar nods his head emphatically.

Learyn says to Silas in a slow, drawling voice, "You would like to see elected ones, then?"

Silas Maynard says, "My own personal preference would be for open elections to the ruling Council, to the four or six members, but I would like to see the city leader appointed by Them."

Tanaar blinks incredulously at Silas.

Zenui nods his head at Silas.

Learyn nods her head at Silas.

Ysebelle nods her head emphatically.

Darroth nods his head in agreement.

Thaumas raises his hand in the air.

Ysebelle raises her hand in the air.

Silas Maynard says, "I believe Thaumas had something to say, and then Tanaar."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "Two questions about your preference, but both brief."

Silas nods his head at Thaumas.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "Would anyone be able to contest a council member, at any time?"

Silas looks about himself, rubbing his chin thoughtfully.

Silas Maynard says, "I'm open to ideas on that, if you have any, though I don't see many drawbacks to completely open elections."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Scheduled term expirations?"

Silas Maynard says, "Eh, that can be a hindrance as much of a help. For every dormant Council member, we might find a gem on whom we would impose an artificially short term."

Silas Maynard says, "With strong leadership, term limits can be imposed more... organically, shall we say."

Thaumas nods his head in agreement.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "No more questions, actually."

Comprehension flashes across Silas's face.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "I meant not term limits, but rather expiration of terms, at which time they can run again, step down, be contested, et cetera."

Silas gives Tanaar a look of comprehension.

Ysebelle raises her hand in the air.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "A 'gem' should never be forced out because of a bureaucratic imposition."

Silas Maynard says, "With no limit on the number of times a candidate might be re-elected?"

Tanaar nods his head emphatically.

Silas Maynard says, "That could be something to consider. Though would you impose restrictions on only contesting at the end of the incumbent's term limit?"

Lady Lyndee Faelithar, Mourning's Voice says, "Is there a functional difference between scheduled term expirations/re-elections and leaders who can be openly contested at any time?"

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Functional? No. But an illegal contestation would be labelled as such."

Silas Maynard says, "Well, as I see it, what term limits might hold back in terms of possible stagnation, they make up for in the increased stability of the Council."

Sir Zenui Ruthras, Mnemosyne Templar says, "So open elections and open candidacy but not open challenges."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Exceptions to be made in the case of dormant, uncitizened, or egregious misconduct etc."

Silas Maynard says, "It can be very jarring to a Council to try to form policy with a new face every week."

Tanaar nods his head at Zenui.

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "Mmm, we'd need some sort of check on who could run."

Halos nods at Silas.

Sothantos grunts noncommittally.

Learyn says in a slow, drawling voice, "I, personally, wouldn't want someone who was a citizen for only two years running.."

Learyn shuffles her feet uneasily.

Sothantos de l'Evanoir, Lord of the Crossing says, "If the candidate is not fit."

Sothantos de l'Evanoir, Lord of the Crossing says, "The people will decide so."

Silas Maynard says, "There are already restrictions on who can run in a city election, on age and perhaps activity. I don't fully remember."

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "On a regular schedule. City leader and four Viziers, one election every other year, term lasts eight years."

Tanaar shrugs helplessly.

Learyn gives Silas a look of comprehension.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "It's not a complete thought, but that's off the top of my head."

Silas Maynard says to Tanaar, "I could get behind something like that."

You nod your head at Tanaar, showing your acceptance.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "They must be full house members, among other things."

Tanaar waves his hand dismissively.

Tanaar says in a deep voice, "Details."

Tesha purses her lips, deep in thought.

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "Well, rank 5 or above. I'm talking about conditions for contestation."

Thaumas says in a slightly lisping voice, "You can't do it if below."

Sir Achilles, Templar Emeritus says, "What about those without a house."

Silas Maynard says, "Of course, the laws will be written with the government structure in mind, but that will come afterwards."

*This is where I had to leave for OOC reasons. Boo!*