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  1. [22:43:28] Ketchi: so, does that all mean we can go into open beta now? :D
  2. [22:44:43] Sarenji: i think so
  3. [22:44:54] Sarenji: well i'd like to fix buttons also
  4. [22:45:13] Ketchi: oh yes
  5. [22:45:18] Ketchi: that's something worth waiting for
  6. [22:45:22] Blue Kirby: i think the most amusing thing that's happened so far is the username switching thing
  7. [22:45:25] Ketchi: shouldn't take as long though, right? :)
  8. [22:45:25] Blue Kirby: i'll almost missi t
  9. [22:45:27] Sarenji: As of May 2014, we've discontinued operation of Bootstrap v2.3.2's Customizer. It's been nearly a year since Bootstrap v2.3.2 was released. Bootstrap v3 was released soon after, and is now mature. We continue to encourage new projects to use Bootstrap v3.
  10. [22:45:28] Sarenji: wowww
  11. [22:45:36] Ketchi: hahahaha, yeah
  12. [22:45:38] Blue Kirby: oof
  13. [22:45:50] Sarenji: there goes buttons
  14. [22:46:01] Sarenji: oh yeah
  15. [22:46:05] Sarenji: i should restart the server with the *real* branch
  16. [22:46:17] Sarenji: LAST RESTART
  17. [22:46:20] Ketchi: :D
  18. [22:46:45] Sarenji: oh wait
  19. [22:46:48] Sarenji: let me just fix buttons first
  20. [22:51:16] Sarenji: restarting
  21. [22:52:07] Sarenji: done
  22. [22:52:09] Sarenji: let's get it
  23. [22:53:26] Sarenji: whoops no topic
  24. [22:53:30] Sarenji: wonder if anyone has the old one
  25. Topic: Welcome! We are currently testing new features. Find Battle is back up! Battle to your pleasure.
  26. [22:54:16] Blue Kirby: lol
  27. [22:54:19] Blue Kirby: battle to your pleasure
  28. [22:55:05] Sarenji: would you rather i say battle to climax
  29. [22:55:10] Sarenji: #1
  30. [22:55:24] Sarenji: wheres the leaderboard i wanna see me at #1
  31. [22:55:25] Blue Kirby: yaaay buttons and shit
  32. [22:55:38] Ketchi: hahahaha
  33. [22:56:09] Ketchi: and I'm literally the worst :|
  34. [22:56:21] Sarenji: sux eh
  35. [22:56:24] Ketchi: hahahaha
  36. [22:56:39] Ketchi: well, at least I tried, right? XP
  37. [22:57:02] Sarenji: A+ for effort
  38. [22:57:06] Ketchi: hahahahaha
  39. [22:57:15] Sarenji: okay i gotta go. this is a busy week.
  40. [22:57:21] Ketchi: yep :)
  41. [22:57:25] Sarenji: work is hosting a party today
  42. [22:57:33] Ketchi: oh, cool
  43. [22:57:35] Sarenji: and i slept prob about 8 hours total in the last 2 days.
  44. [22:57:40] Sarenji: due to pokebattle
  45. [22:57:42] Sarenji: thanks pokebattle
  46. [22:57:43] Ketchi: is it in celebration of your awesomeness? ;)
  47. [22:57:49] Sarenji: celebration of our new office
  48. [22:57:54] Ketchi: mhmm
  49. [22:57:55] Sarenji: it's going to be amazing
  50. [22:58:13] Sarenji: we brought in two new game consoles that the people who use our site made
  51. [22:58:22] Sarenji: ouya and this arcade game called killer queen
  52. [22:58:25] Sarenji: so much fun
  53. [22:58:25] Blue Kirby: your leaderboard and emails will be awaiting
  54. [22:58:27] Blue Kirby: cheers sarenji
  55. [22:58:43] Sarenji: gonna shower, come back, and if i can, nap a bit
  56. [22:58:46] Sarenji: eat, etc
  57. [22:59:11] Ketchi: mhmm
  58. [22:59:16] Ketchi: well, I wish you the best :)
  59. [23:12:07] jegsar: hey cosmic chaos
  60. [23:19:19] Blue Kirby: anyone here?
  61. [23:19:59] Sir Monkington: Yep what's up
  62. [23:20:10] Blue Kirby: can you do me a solid and hop on ladder, just wanna make sure it's working
  63. [23:20:13] Sir Monkington: Sure
  64. Ladder match: Sir Monkington vs. The Goddamn Batman!
  65. [23:27:47] cosmic chaos: it works works the find a battle button works
  66. [23:27:58] cosmic chaos: but the battles do not work
  67. [23:34:20] Blue Kirby: thanks for hopping on sir monkington :)
  68. [23:34:36] Fookiz: making a set for accelgor
  69. [23:34:47] Sir Monkington: Yeah no problem
  70. [23:40:02] cosmic chaos: i don.t really like pbv why can.t pokebattle make two types pbv and some other type they make up
  71. [23:40:26] Sir Monkington: What do you mean?
  72. [23:42:50] cosmic chaos: like owound like comptive modes and causal modes on this simu
  73. [23:43:30] xyxx: what would be the difference between them?
  74. [23:44:04] cosmic chaos: well the diffence wound be luck
  75. [23:44:07] Ketchi: yeah... ignore cosmic
  76. [23:44:32] Ketchi: sorry, but can we just mute him already? ><"
  77. [23:44:59] xyxx: well i think having two modes like that would be quite....
  78. [23:45:02] xyxx: chaotic
  79. [23:45:12] Ketchi: silly too
  80. [23:45:16] Ketchi: like...
  81. [23:45:19] Ketchi: different tiers, sure
  82. [23:45:20] cosmic chaos: i don.t play comptive much
  83. [23:45:32] Sarenji: cosmic chaos, pokebattle is for competitive players.
  84. [23:45:39] Sarenji: that's our current focus
  85. [23:45:43] xyxx: Yup
  86. [23:45:46] Ketchi: yep
  87. [23:45:46] cosmic chaos: well i can.t find any caual simulatos
  88. [23:45:52] Sarenji: so if you want different game types, that falls out of our focus!
  89. [23:45:54] xyxx: To foster a strong, competitive community
  90. [23:45:58] Sir Monkington: You could play Random Battle on Showdown
  91. [23:46:03] xyxx: Yeah that's quite casual
  92. [23:46:12] Ketchi: hmm
  93. [23:46:12] Sarenji: yeah, that's a good one.
  94. [23:46:23] cosmic chaos: im banned from that
  95. [23:46:27] xyxx: LOL
  96. [23:46:31] Ketchi: definition of "casual" depends on who uses it
  97. [23:46:32] Sarenji: ha
  98. [23:46:46] xyxx: Yeah, tbh most people who play pokemon want to win..?
  99. [23:46:59] xyxx: So, I guess being competitive is in the spirit of most pokemon trainers, if not all
  100. [23:47:03] Sarenji: well, cosmic chaos, there's always serebii. they are very casual players, and very nice
  101. [23:47:07] Ketchi: and imo, a good randbats tier can be just as competitive as any other tier
  102. [23:47:18] Ketchi: like the one I suggested in the feature requests thread
  103. [23:47:31] Ketchi: it's still Pokemon, and Pokemon is competitive by nature
  104. [23:47:39] cosmic chaos: well comptive is unoffcal
  105. [23:47:43] Ketchi: regardless of tier or ruleset
  106. [23:47:48] Ketchi: competitive IS official
  107. [23:47:48] cosmic chaos: the rules are
  108. [23:47:58] Ketchi: we just play unofficial rulesets
  109. [23:47:59] xyxx: So you want no rules at all?
  110. [23:48:04] Sir Monkington: Uh
  111. [23:48:18] Sir Monkington: If you want to play "official" you could go to Nugget Bridge I guess?
  112. [23:48:29] xyxx: TBH, I kinda want a tier with no rules, where OHKO moves are allowed, sleep clause are not on etc
  113. [23:48:33] Ketchi: Showdown also has the official tiers
  114. [23:48:38] cosmic chaos: the internet ruined pokemon
  115. [23:48:41] xyxx: There's such a tier on a chinese server on PO
  116. [23:48:58] xyxx: cosmic, from what I understand, you just want easier opponents?
  117. [23:48:59] cosmic chaos: when those gameboy ones hwere out i just played with firends
  118. [23:49:14] Sarenji: where are those friends now?
  119. [23:49:38] Ketchi: he's said before that he never played anything but XY...
  120. [23:49:50] xyxx: eh... nice xy on gameboy
  121. [23:50:24] xyxx: Sorry to say this, but we're heading towards a competitive environment
  122. [23:50:26] Sir Monkington: Is there a word for feeling nostalgia for something you've never experienced
  123. [23:50:35] Ketchi: no
  124. [23:50:39] Ketchi: because no such thing exists
  125. [23:50:43] Ketchi: nostalgia is an emotion
  126. [23:50:48] Sir Monkington: I think you are a unique case cosmic chaos
  127. [23:50:55] Sarenji: "the desire to fit in"
  128. [23:50:56] Ketchi: it's like a psycopath who can feel empathy, it's impossible
  129. [23:51:04] Sir Monkington: A medical anomaly
  130. [23:51:19] cosmic chaos: cmptie makes things hard too easy can be boring but to hard can be even more broing
  131. [23:51:32] cosmic chaos: hard makes it vwey broing
  132. [23:51:35] Sir Monkington: Ok I don't know what that means
  133. [23:51:40] Sir Monkington: What is cmptie
  134. [23:51:44] Sir Monkington: Oh competitive?
  135. [23:52:00] cosmic chaos: i have one in comptive
  136. [23:52:02] xyxx: He just wants opponents he can beat
  137. [23:52:05] Ketchi: there is no such thing as "too hard"... that's what ratings are for
  138. [23:52:09] cosmic chaos: its not that hard lol
  139. [23:52:31] Ketchi: cosmic is a troll -.-
  140. [23:52:34] xyxx: yeah
  141. [23:52:44] xyxx: a broing one too
  142. [23:52:48] Ketchi: lol
  143. [23:53:05] Sarenji: alright
  144. [23:53:25] cosmic chaos: well trolling fun
  145. [23:53:33] Ketchi: trolling is against the rules
  146. [23:53:36] Sarenji: trolling is not acceptable
  147. [23:53:38] Ketchi: and serves no good purpose
  148. [23:53:39] Ketchi: yep
  149. [23:53:49] Sarenji: we want a positive environment here
  150. [23:53:53] cosmic chaos: it severs good purpose of me
  151. [23:53:58] Sarenji: if you continue to be negative i'll remove you
  152. [23:53:58] xyxx: lool
  153. [23:53:58] cosmic chaos: for me
  154. [23:54:56] Sarenji: you aren't gonna get far in life with that philosophy cosmic chaos
  155. [23:55:17] cosmic chaos: negtive is for me not this simu the negtive is not foucused on you its on me so it does not hurt you
  156. [23:55:19] Sarenji: i highly suggest starting to think about other people
  157. [23:55:40] Sarenji: i'll let you stew on that for a while
  158. [23:56:09] Ketchi: uhh cosmic
  159. [23:56:17] Ketchi: trolling is by nature an act against the person you're trolling
  160. [23:56:25] cosmic chaos: i have noting tosay
  161. [23:56:30] cosmic chaos: thats why i do it
  162. [23:56:31] Ketchi: you can't just troll someone and then go "it's your own fault for getting trolled"
  163. [23:57:09] Ketchi: well then don't talk at all
  164. [23:57:11] xyxx: I'm confused, does he genuinely not want to play competitively or not
  165. [23:57:23] Ketchi: well tbh, I've never seen him play more than a few matches
  166. [23:57:43] xyxx: are his teams good?
  167. [23:57:48] xyxx: or hyper beam snorlax
  168. [23:57:58] cosmic chaos: i don.t play pokemon much
  169. [23:58:00] Ketchi: his teams are ripoffs of other people's teams...
  170. [23:58:05] Ketchi: well
  171. [23:58:08] Ketchi: teams that he's been given
  172. [23:58:38] Ketchi: "ripoff" is a bit of a harsh word for anyone
  173. [23:58:58] Transcendent God Champion: Cosmic chaos,
  174. [23:59:01] Transcendent God Champion: no offense,
  175. [23:59:06] Transcendent God Champion: but this isn't the right place to troll.
  176. [23:59:16] Transcendent God Champion: If you want to troll, I have the perfect place for you: http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers
  177. [23:59:20] xyxx: LOL
  178. [23:59:22] Ketchi: lol
  179. [23:59:28] Ketchi: he's banned from there already XP
  180. [23:59:35] Transcendent God Champion: Oh, haha.
  181. [23:59:35] Ketchi: for trolling
  182. [23:59:38] xyxx: I wonder why LOL
  183. [23:59:41] Ketchi: hahahahaha
  184. [23:59:44] cosmic chaos: iwrong place i like trolling best on minecraft lol buring peoples hosues down lol
  185. [23:59:47] Transcendent God Champion: But bans get reset every time the server restarts though.
  186. [0:00:06] Ketchi: that's called griefing and is in fact debatably worse than trolling
  187. [0:00:18] Ketchi: interesting, didn't know that about bans
  188. [0:00:35] xyxx: Lol so you're building your happiness on others' misery?
  189. [0:00:39] xyxx: Not too bad
  190. [0:00:50] Ketchi: heh
  191. [0:01:22] Sir Monkington: You should be a telemarketer
  192. [0:01:47] xyxx: Transcendent God Champion, I never knew steelskittles was a moderator there......
  193. [0:01:58] Transcendent God Champion: He was promoted more recently.
  194. [0:02:04] xyxx: lol and steve angello is voice
  195. [0:02:13] xyxx: I have nothing against steve angello though
  196. [0:02:14] Transcendent God Champion: I asked him to ban some members who were planning to troll our forums,
  197. [0:02:17] Transcendent God Champion: and he refused.
  198. [0:02:21] xyxx: .
  199. [0:02:24] Transcendent God Champion: So I asked him to leave our clan.
  200. [0:02:34] xyxx: Good.
  201. [0:02:43] xyxx: We have no place for double crossers
  202. [0:02:47] Transcendent God Champion: ^
  203. [0:02:57] Ketchi: hehe, that is... debatable
  204. [0:03:09] Ketchi: you could say that what happens in PS is irrelevant to what happens in our clan
  205. [0:03:16] Transcendent God Champion: Seriously though, anyone who stays in that filthy Ubers room for too long eventually starts to become one.
  206. [0:03:19] Ketchi: I'd do the same thing, sorry to say
  207. [0:03:31] cosmic chaos: the pokebattle guide is too compacalited
  208. [0:03:40] cosmic chaos: you need to bascic it out
  209. [0:03:41] xyxx: People need to know about loyalty.
  210. [0:03:43] Transcendent God Champion: You mean you wouldn't ban someone here if they were planning to troll another forum?
  211. [0:03:50] Ketchi: yes
  212. [0:03:58] Transcendent God Champion: They were discussing the trolling on the channel.
  213. [0:04:09] Transcendent God Champion: So if you were a moderator here,
  214. Sarenji muted cosmic chaos for 10 minutes ( stop being negative)
  215. [0:04:21] Transcendent God Champion: and you see everyone here discussing topics like:
  216. [0:04:30] Transcendent God Champion: "Hey, let's all go and troll GameFAQs!"
  217. [0:04:35] Ketchi: hmm...
  218. [0:04:39] Transcendent God Champion: Or, "let's go and troll Serebii!"
  219. [0:04:43] Ketchi: I get your point...
  220. [0:04:47] Transcendent God Champion: Would you punish them?
  221. [0:04:54] Transcendent God Champion: So, what would be your decision?
  222. [0:04:54] Ketchi: but it isn't exactly our job?
  223. [0:05:04] Transcendent God Champion: It IS your job.
  224. [0:05:18] Ketchi: it'd be nice to have a co-founder answer this question ^^
  225. [0:05:20] Transcendent God Champion: You're meant to prevent people you moderate from doing inappropriate things.
  226. [0:05:22] Ketchi: I'd side with whatever they say
  227. [0:05:42] Transcendent God Champion: Discussing how to troll another community is inappropriate.
  228. [0:05:42] Sir Monkington: I don't think punishing someone here would affect their actions in another place in any way
  229. [0:05:44] Ketchi: I'd think it's to prevent them from doing inappropriate things on our site
  230. [0:05:49] Transcendent God Champion: So you punish them.
  231. [0:05:51] Sir Monkington: You'd want to talk them out of it first
  232. [0:06:07] Ketchi: oh yes, Monkington is right
  233. [0:06:09] Transcendent God Champion: They ARE doing something inappropriate on your site.
  234. [0:06:21] Transcendent God Champion: They're planning an attack on another community.
  235. [0:06:30] Transcendent God Champion: And discussing it in your chatroom.
  236. [0:06:33] Ketchi: yeah, as I said, I'd like to have a co-founder answer this
  237. [0:06:37] Transcendent God Champion: How is that appropriate?
  238. [0:06:40] Ketchi: it's a very debatable topic
  239. [0:06:46] Transcendent God Champion: No, it isn't.
  240. [0:06:51] Ketchi: well, I think it is...
  241. [0:06:55] Sarenji: i would definitely publicly call them out.
  242. [0:07:06] Transcendent God Champion: And if they continue?
  243. [0:07:31] Sarenji: if they continue to talk about it, it's a negative influence. i would tell them to take it elsewhere, (but also highly recommend they not troll communities)
  244. [0:07:38] Sarenji: and if they don't, ban them.
  245. [0:07:41] Transcendent God Champion: ^
  246. [0:07:45] Ketchi: ahh, okay :)
  247. [0:07:56] Ketchi: I agree with that then
  248. [0:08:03] Transcendent God Champion: Why do you base your opinion on someone else's?
  249. [0:08:09] Ketchi: it was something I was very unsure of, but wanted to play devil's advocate
  250. [0:08:29] Sarenji: cosmic pmed me
  251. [0:08:35] Ketchi: you need to hear both sides of the story to get a full perspective
  252. [0:08:41] Sarenji: i told him the next time he trolls he's banned
  253. [0:08:43] xyxx: Willingness to impose rules is what keeps a community amiable.
  254. [0:08:49] Sarenji: and he left
  255. [0:08:49] xyxx: Yup
  256. [0:08:51] xyxx: LOL
  257. [0:08:54] Ketchi: heh
  258. [0:09:00] Transcendent God Champion: [0:08:35] Ketchi: you need to hear both sides of the story to get a full perspective
  259. [0:09:02] Ketchi: well, it's good to know :)
  260. [0:09:13] Transcendent God Champion: Why are my opinion and Sarenji's the only relevant ones?
  261. [0:09:16] Ketchi: not that he's gone, but that he got the message
  262. [0:09:25] Ketchi: well, my opinion definitely matters
  263. [0:09:37] Sarenji: maybe he's one of those people that dos servers
  264. [0:09:38] Sarenji: that would be cool
  265. [0:09:42] Transcendent God Champion: So basically, you're saying this:
  266. [0:09:49] Transcendent God Champion: One person (you) is on your side,
  267. [0:09:54] Transcendent God Champion: and one person (me) is on my side,
  268. [0:10:08] Transcendent God Champion: so you want a third person to take a side to determine which side outnumbers which,
  269. [0:10:12] Sir Monkington: Man TGC why you gotta be so sassy
  270. [0:10:14] Transcendent God Champion: and then decide that side is right?
  271. [0:10:33] Ketchi: well, that is definitely one big part in it, and the fact that I wanted a co-founder to say it was so that I could get the official perspective on the topic
  272. [0:10:41] Transcendent God Champion: I'm just questioning one of my own members' way of thinking, that's all.
  273. [0:10:50] Ketchi: but really, I was unsure, undecided of an ethic
  274. [0:11:09] xyxx: Ketchi is DM? :o
  275. [0:11:09] Sir Monkington: Sarenji's perspective ins't necessarily the official stance
  276. [0:11:10] Ketchi: I wanted to oppose yours so that we could properly discuss it, mainly
  277. [0:11:15] Ketchi: yep, I am
  278. [0:11:15] Transcendent God Champion: That which is right is not right because someone says it's wrong.
  279. [0:11:18] Sir Monkington: I got the impression it was his own opinion
  280. [0:11:41] Ketchi: hmm
  281. [0:11:44] Ketchi: well
  282. [0:11:45] xyxx: OOH Ketchi, do you go on PO?
  283. [0:11:51] Ketchi: I don't, actually ^^
  284. [0:11:51] xyxx: Since I don't think i've seen you often
  285. [0:11:54] Transcendent God Champion: It is an independent on what anyone says, and those who say that something is right say it because it IS right.
  286. [0:11:54] xyxx: Ah
  287. [0:11:56] xyxx: I see
  288. [0:12:01] Ketchi: I was an exception to getting in by my wifi ratings
  289. [0:12:13] xyxx: What's your tier?
  290. [0:12:21] Ketchi: XY Battle Spot Doubles and VGC
  291. [0:12:26] Ketchi: ranked 60th worldwide in season 1
  292. [0:12:27] xyxx: Oh interesting
  293. [0:12:33] xyxx: :]
  294. [0:12:43] Ketchi: and like, second or third in Australia in VGC
  295. [0:12:50] xyxx: Ah, I see
  296. [0:12:58] Ketchi: yep ^^
  297. [0:13:08] Ketchi: Doubles is definitely my tier
  298. [0:13:12] xyxx: Allow me to introduce myself, my main is Tendetta. :]
  299. [0:13:26] Ketchi: but yeah, I do understand your perspective on the situation, Champ
  300. [0:13:33] Ketchi: hi Tendetta ^^
  301. [0:13:54] Transcendent God Champion: OK.
  302. [0:14:02] Ketchi: but in the same way, I won't hide my own perspectives just because you're here reading them, so you can take all this as it is :)
  303. [0:14:06] Transcendent God Champion: But if I was making a decision like this,
  304. [0:14:19] Transcendent God Champion: I would act based on my own sense of Justice,
  305. [0:14:34] Transcendent God Champion: not based on the opinion of the one who owns the place I'm moderating.
  306. [0:14:39] Ketchi: hmm
  307. [0:14:41] Ketchi: well
  308. [0:14:46] Ketchi: these people do set the rules
  309. [0:14:52] Transcendent God Champion: Mere rules and constructed laws cannot overwrite moral laws.
  310. [0:14:56] Ketchi: and those rules are what defined what I would do
  311. [0:15:03] FlamingVictini: guys, my teams are all screwed up
  312. [0:15:07] FlamingVictini: and reloading won't fix it
  313. [0:15:15] FlamingVictini: i lost some of my teams and i have someone elses
  314. [0:15:15] Ketchi: I guess it was a miscommunication
  315. [0:15:19] Transcendent God Champion: Do you follow any moral code?
  316. [0:15:29] Ketchi: ethically, definitely, I'd do whatever I could to get people to not troll anywhere
  317. [0:15:34] xyxx: Ah, but if what they are doing is not condemned by the rules, but condemned by your own moral code?
  318. [0:15:40] Ketchi: but I would debate whether banning them is appropriate
  319. [0:15:51] Transcendent God Champion: [0:15:34] xyxx: Ah, but if what they are doing is not condemned by the rules, but condemned by your own moral code?
  320. [0:16:03] Ketchi: because banning is a thing done by rules, not by ethics, despite the fact that rules are made by ethics
  321. [0:16:06] Transcendent God Champion: Then I would act based on what is moral.
  322. [0:16:09] FlamingVictini: guys, can i have someone help me with my team issue here?
  323. [0:16:09] Sir Monkington: Wait hold on constructed laws can definitely overwrite moral laws
  324. [0:16:24] Ketchi: I would act based upon rules
  325. [0:16:25] xyxx: I understand your viewpoint as well, Ketchi.
  326. [0:16:25] Transcendent God Champion: Not for me.
  327. [0:16:42] Transcendent God Champion: Why else would I constantly troll Showdown's Ubers room?
  328. [0:16:44] Ketchi: of course there are exceptions, like discussion of terroism or something
  329. [0:16:49] Transcendent God Champion: It's against the rules of that simulator,
  330. [0:16:58] Transcendent God Champion: but I am doing something that is morally justified.
  331. [0:17:10] Sir Monkington: Well it's justified in your own eyes
  332. [0:17:31] Ketchi: well...
  333. [0:17:43] Transcendent God Champion: [0:17:10] Sir Monkington: Well it's justified in your own eyes
  334. [0:17:45] Ketchi: personally, I have a somewhat twisted sense of morality, and I'm known for that
  335. [0:17:53] Transcendent God Champion: Meta-ethically, it's more complicated than that.
  336. [0:18:06] Transcendent God Champion: But I guess I probably shouldn't bring up that topic here.
  337. [0:18:18] Transcendent God Champion: Many people won't believe me anyway.
  338. [0:18:18] Ketchi: I therefore rely on things stated by those of an authoritative position to say what is and is not wrong when it comes to acting upon rules
  339. [0:18:28] Ketchi: but I definitely have my ethics
  340. [0:19:16] Transcendent God Champion: Those in positions of authority are only human.
  341. [0:19:25] Ketchi: but you can extend that
  342. [0:19:27] xyxx: OH
  343. [0:19:31] Transcendent God Champion: What if they make a set of rules that you cannot deny as being completely unfair?
  344. [0:19:38] xyxx: NOW I UNDERSTAND WHY SMOGON'S UBER ROOM IS SO CORRUPT
  345. [0:19:40] Ketchi: yes or no, do you believe it is wrong to follow your own ethics?
  346. [0:20:02] xyxx: The authorities there act according to their own interests
  347. [0:20:15] Ketchi: on here, I find that they don't :P
  348. [0:20:18] xyxx: Yeap
  349. [0:20:24] xyxx: Altruistic
  350. [0:20:25] Transcendent God Champion: I believe it is right to follow the moral code which I have detected as being true through my own conscience/sense of Justice.
  351. [0:20:40] Ketchi: well answered :P
  352. [0:20:43] Transcendent God Champion: And I don't claim
  353. [0:20:56] xyxx: Champion, I'm curious, are you a Philosophy major?
  354. [0:20:56] Ketchi: do you think it's wrong for other people to follow their own ethics?
  355. [0:20:59] Transcendent God Champion: that this moral code is true only from my point of view or that it is subjective,
  356. [0:21:12] Transcendent God Champion: but rather,
  357. [0:21:30] Transcendent God Champion: this moral code is an objective, real, existent thing in the universe,
  358. [0:21:40] Transcendent God Champion: and I detected it through my sense of Justice/conscience,
  359. [0:21:43] Transcendent God Champion: in the same way
  360. [0:21:56] Transcendent God Champion: that people can detect the existence of real things with their five senses,
  361. [0:22:00] Transcendent God Champion: like sight, hearing, touch, etc.
  362. [0:22:10] Transcendent God Champion: [0:20:56] Ketchi: do you think it's wrong for other people to follow their own ethics?
  363. [0:22:32] Transcendent God Champion: This may sound harsh and ridiculous from a superficial perspective, but yes.
  364. [0:22:45] Transcendent God Champion: If they differ from my own, then they are doing something wrong.
  365. [0:22:45] Ketchi: okay then, topic solved ^^
  366. [0:22:54] Transcendent God Champion: It HAS to be that way if you think about it.
  367. [0:22:57] Ketchi: mhmm
  368. [0:23:00] Ketchi: I don't think it is
  369. [0:23:06] Transcendent God Champion: Why?
  370. [0:23:17] Ketchi: I think that it is equally wrong to follow my own ethics as it is for other people to follow theirs
  371. [0:23:32] Transcendent God Champion: [0:20:56] xyxx: Champion, I'm curious, are you a Philosophy major?
  372. [0:23:38] Ketchi: where the primary part of my ethics are to be as non-hypocritical as possible
  373. [0:23:38] Transcendent God Champion: Sorry, just noticed this message now.
  374. [0:23:42] Transcendent God Champion: I have two majors:
  375. [0:23:48] Transcendent God Champion: Philosophy and Film Studies.
  376. [0:23:57] xyxx: Ah, I see
  377. [0:24:00] xyxx: Very interesting.
  378. [0:24:02] Ketchi: albeit arrogant, yet never hypocritical
  379. [0:24:20] xyxx: No wonder you mentioned Freud
  380. [0:24:28] Ketchi: for that reason, I cannot say that something is or is not wrong if someone else believes it to be ethically right
  381. [0:24:38] Ketchi: and therefore, I would rely upon rules
  382. [0:24:54] Ketchi: things stated as a third opinion, set in stone and for all to understand
  383. [0:25:02] Ketchi: the true right and wrong
  384. [0:25:05] Transcendent God Champion: [0:24:20] xyxx: No wonder you mentioned Freud
  385. [0:25:06] Transcendent God Champion: Yeah.
  386. [0:25:35] Ketchi: I will therefore never disobey a fair rule
  387. [0:25:51] Ketchi: now, there are obvious extremes like outrageous terroism
  388. [0:25:54] xyxx: That's because that corresponds to your moral code.
  389. [0:25:58] Ketchi: yep
  390. [0:26:22] Fookiz: dats trii
  391. [0:26:37] Ketchi: and I can certainly respect a person for being rebellious, like yourself, champ ^^
  392. [0:26:44] Transcendent God Champion: :)
  393. [0:26:56] xyxx: I'm going to use a rather extreme example here: In Nazi Germany, most of the Nazi soldiers were instructed to commit genocide by their superiors.
  394. [0:26:57] Transcendent God Champion: Well, just to get this straight:
  395. [0:27:04] xyxx: They did so.
  396. [0:27:15] Ketchi: and I don't think that's wrong
  397. [0:27:16] xyxx: So.. what were they thinking?
  398. [0:27:35] Transcendent God Champion: Ketchi, do you believe that morality is something constructed by the human mind, and therefore there's no objective truth to what is morally right?
  399. [0:27:42] Ketchi: correct
  400. [0:27:42] Transcendent God Champion: Or do you think like me,
  401. [0:27:47] Transcendent God Champion: OK.
  402. [0:28:02] xyxx: Actually, I believe some specific codes in morality are universal.
  403. [0:28:03] Ketchi: but in the same way, even math is something constructed by the human mind
  404. [0:28:26] Transcendent God Champion: [0:27:16] xyxx: So.. what were they thinking?
  405. [0:28:43] Transcendent God Champion: My explanation is that their rational minds were dissolved due to a lot of brainwashing.
  406. [0:28:57] Transcendent God Champion: [0:28:03] Ketchi: but in the same way, even math is something constructed by the human mind
  407. [0:29:02] Transcendent God Champion: So, consider this statement:
  408. [0:29:19] Transcendent God Champion: "Tortuting innocent babies for fun is morally wrong."
  409. [0:29:22] Transcendent God Champion: Now, consider this:
  410. [0:29:26] Transcendent God Champion: "1 + 1 = 2"
  411. [0:29:44] Ketchi: they both seem like absolutes to me
  412. [0:29:45] Transcendent God Champion: Do you think that these two statements are the same kind of "objective truth"?
  413. [0:29:51] Ketchi: yes
  414. [0:29:55] Transcendent God Champion: Then there you go.
  415. [0:29:56] xyxx: You know... there is a tribe called the Ik people who actually don't think torturing innocent babies are wrong.
  416. [0:29:58] Fookiz: this is some deep shit
  417. [0:30:02] Ketchi: lol
  418. [0:30:14] xyxx: Are you guys aware of the Milgram experiment?
  419. [0:30:18] Ketchi: nope
  420. [0:30:22] Transcendent God Champion: You actually believe that moral values ultimately aren't constructed, but are REAL things,
  421. [0:30:34] Ketchi: I believe that they are as real as math
  422. [0:30:37] Transcendent God Champion: and you use your conscience/sense of Justice as a kind of "sixth sense" to detect them.
  423. [0:30:44] Ketchi: yep
  424. [0:30:53] Transcendent God Champion: OK.
  425. [0:31:05] Ketchi: but it was with intent to belittle math, rather than to uplift morality
  426. [0:31:22] Transcendent God Champion: Then you can't spout that "I think X is wrong, but someone else thinks it's right, so I'm in no position to act upon my own belief." thing.
  427. [0:31:29] Ketchi: well
  428. [0:31:31] Ketchi: in that case
  429. [0:31:40] Ketchi: almost 100% of the world thinks that 1+1=2
  430. [0:31:51] Ketchi: so it's a widely accepted truth
  431. [0:32:04] xyxx: But you see, that is not the same as morality.
  432. [0:32:05] Ketchi: dismissing whether or not it is actually true
  433. [0:32:15] xyxx: You can prove mathematics.
  434. [0:32:17] Transcendent God Champion: How commonly believed in something is is not the same as whether or not is is true.
  435. [0:32:18] xyxx: But can you prove morality?
  436. [0:32:23] Ketchi: well, how can you prove a proof?
  437. [0:32:32] xyxx: Lemme find you a link
  438. [0:32:36] Ketchi: cool :3
  439. [0:32:46] Ketchi: I've actually had this debate with my brother
  440. [0:32:52] Ketchi: and my opinion is this:
  441. [0:33:07] Transcendent God Champion: Almost 100% of the world believes that the dinosaurs became completely extinct after the Cretaceous period.
  442. [0:33:10] Ketchi: the majority of relatively intelligent beliefs determines the truth of something
  443. [0:33:15] Transcendent God Champion: Now, if you see a dinosaur today,
  444. [0:33:18] Transcendent God Champion: and tell others,
  445. [0:33:23] Transcendent God Champion: no one would believe you.
  446. [0:33:31] Transcendent God Champion: Would you deny that you saw a dinosaur then?
  447. [0:33:38] Ketchi: yes, actually XP
  448. [0:33:45] Ketchi: because it just seems silly
  449. [0:33:56] Ketchi: sorry
  450. [0:34:01] Ketchi: that was a poor response
  451. [0:34:05] Ketchi: what I mean is...
  452. [0:34:09] xyxx: I can't find a simple link, but two mathematicians proved 1+1=2 in a series of hundreds of pages
  453. [0:34:15] Ketchi: I would probably be wrong
  454. [0:34:28] Ketchi: no matter how right I would think I am
  455. [0:34:36] Ketchi: and so I would probably think I was wrong
  456. [0:34:46] Transcendent God Champion: That's a dangerous way to think.
  457. [0:34:47] Ketchi: now, if I found out something new...
  458. [0:34:52] Transcendent God Champion: When you think like that,
  459. [0:35:06] Transcendent God Champion: you essentially allow others to define who you are.
  460. [0:35:09] Ketchi: hmm
  461. [0:35:11] xyxx: ^
  462. [0:35:16] Ketchi: the wrold is defined by its inhabitants
  463. [0:35:18] Ketchi: world*
  464. [0:35:19] Transcendent God Champion: Take the game of Pokémon, for example.
  465. [0:35:33] xyxx: But you shouldn't allow other inhabitants to define you.
  466. [0:35:48] Ketchi: ahh, but I guess there's something else that I should mention: I would fulfil my role and act as if I saw a dinosaur
  467. [0:36:15] Transcendent God Champion: Say, you achieve something immensely great in your Pokémon battling career, and come to conclude that you're nothing short of an awesome battler.
  468. [0:36:20] Transcendent God Champion: But for some reasons,
  469. [0:36:29] Transcendent God Champion: everyone else in the world insists otherwise,
  470. [0:36:38] Transcendent God Champion: despite what you have achieved with your skill and efforts.
  471. [0:36:43] Transcendent God Champion: So, thanks to others,
  472. [0:37:01] Transcendent God Champion: would you allow yourself to be deprived of the pride you should have made yourself feel?
  473. Ladder match: Apacheman vs. Woodpile!
  474. [0:37:26] Ketchi: I would, because it wouldn't matter since nobody believed me; it would have no purpose
  475. [0:37:40] Ketchi: quite unfortunate...
  476. [0:37:48] Ketchi: well
  477. [0:37:49] Ketchi: maybe
  478. [0:37:52] Ketchi: I dunno, tbh
  479. [0:37:54] Transcendent God Champion: So in your opinion,
  480. [0:37:54] Ketchi: it's a hard topic
  481. [0:38:00] Ketchi: like...
  482. [0:38:01] Ketchi: for example
  483. [0:38:09] Ketchi: my placement in the XY Battle Spot Doubles
  484. [0:38:14] Transcendent God Champion: the ultimate goal of training as a battler isn't to BECOME the very best,
  485. [0:38:15] Ketchi: initially, I was 59th worldwide
  486. [0:38:21] Transcendent God Champion: but rather, be ACKNOWLEDGED as the very best?
  487. [0:38:27] Ketchi: somehow, I was moved to 60th a few months after the season ended
  488. [0:38:42] Ketchi: I did take a screenshot of being 59th
  489. [0:38:51] Ketchi: but I can't really back it up past that and my own memory
  490. [0:38:56] Fookiz: omg actully there is a battle going on
  491. [0:38:57] Fookiz: LOL
  492. [0:39:00] Ketchi: so I just tell everyone that I got 60th
  493. [0:39:10] Ketchi: it's a small example, but it is there
  494. [0:39:15] Transcendent God Champion: I see.
  495. [0:39:34] Transcendent God Champion: But how would you respond to my latest question?
  496. [0:39:38] Ketchi: hmm...
  497. [0:39:59] Ketchi: I do think it is to be acknowledged
  498. [0:40:08] Transcendent God Champion: OK, then another question:
  499. [0:40:21] Transcendent God Champion: Say, all the evidence told you that you're not that good at Pokémon battling,
  500. [0:40:29] Transcendent God Champion: but many people thought you were the absolute best.
  501. [0:40:33] Transcendent God Champion: Would you feel proud?
  502. [0:40:38] Ketchi: yep ^^
  503. [0:40:49] Ketchi: it's kinda how I feel tbh
  504. [0:40:52] Transcendent God Champion: We differ a lot, I guess...
  505. [0:40:57] Ketchi: I don't feel like I achieved my 60th worldwide
  506. [0:41:10] Ketchi: a lot of the matches were from hax, albeit deserved hax with the majority
  507. [0:41:26] Transcendent God Champion: That's Pokémon.
  508. [0:41:26] Ketchi: I do feel like I'm just another player of Pokemon
  509. [0:41:37] Ketchi: and I can't even get that good at the Smogon XY Doubles Battle Spot
  510. [0:41:59] Transcendent God Champion: Well, consider this possibility though:
  511. [0:42:23] Transcendent God Champion: Say many people in the world unjustifiably hated you, or they're too stubborn or arrogant to acknowledge the achievements of others,
  512. [0:42:41] Transcendent God Champion: or they're too stupid to perceive or draw correct conclusions from evidence.
  513. [0:42:50] Transcendent God Champion: Due to some flaws on their part,
  514. [0:43:02] Transcendent God Champion: MANY people don't acknowledge what you have achieved.
  515. [0:43:06] Ketchi: and that's why I said "relatively intellectual"
  516. [0:43:30] Transcendent God Champion: OK, but a certain possibility still remains:
  517. [0:43:38] Transcendent God Champion: Many people in this world aren't honest.
  518. [0:43:46] Transcendent God Champion: Say you have an enemy who REALLY hates you.
  519. [0:44:02] Transcendent God Champion: That enemy has seen all the evidence suggesting that you're an awesome battler,
  520. [0:44:08] Transcendent God Champion: and cannot honestly deny that.
  521. [0:44:17] Transcendent God Champion: If he was asked if you're an awesome battler,
  522. [0:44:25] Transcendent God Champion: wouldn't he be likely to say no anyway?
  523. [0:44:33] Ketchi: true
  524. [0:44:37] Transcendent God Champion: After all, "yes" is what you want to hear and makes you happy,
  525. [0:44:37] Ketchi: what's your point?
  526. [0:44:42] Transcendent God Champion: he wants to hurt you.
  527. [0:44:52] Transcendent God Champion: So of course, he's not going to answer "yes".
  528. [0:45:01] Transcendent God Champion: So if many people thought like that...
  529. [0:45:06] Sir Monkington: I'm not sure that's accurate
  530. [0:45:18] Sir Monkington: If you're provably good he can't answer otherwise without being called out on it
  531. [0:45:20] Transcendent God Champion: ...then would you base your pride on their acknowledgement or lack thereof?
  532. [0:45:43] Ketchi: monkington is somewhat right, but for what I was going to say
  533. [0:45:43] Fookiz: סמבודיע,
  534. [0:45:50] Transcendent God Champion: [0:45:18] Sir Monkington: If you're provably good he can't answer otherwise without being called out on it
  535. [0:45:52] Ketchi: I'd do anything to prove him wrong
  536. [0:45:54] Transcendent God Champion: He can, easily.
  537. [0:46:02] Transcendent God Champion: Logic can be used in a million different ways.
  538. [0:46:06] Ketchi: but I wouldn't really feel any pride
  539. [0:46:14] Transcendent God Champion: There's honestly like,
  540. [0:46:18] Ketchi: pride is something only to be felt for those who have achieved where others would fail
  541. [0:46:33] Transcendent God Champion: an infinite number of ideas people can construct to deny another person's skill at something.
  542. [0:46:35] Ketchi: so it must be defined by others
  543. [0:47:00] Transcendent God Champion: Ideas = arguments in this context.
  544. [0:47:09] Transcendent God Champion: I see, Ketchi.
  545. [0:47:34] Ketchi: it is about superiority
  546. [0:47:39] Transcendent God Champion: But I find that I can experience pride in something of mine whose quality only I acknowledge.
  547. [0:47:57] Transcendent God Champion: Like, say I write a story on WordPad.
  548. [0:48:03] Ketchi: hmm
  549. [0:48:03] Transcendent God Champion: I read it, and feel proud of it,
  550. [0:48:06] Ketchi: well that makes sense
  551. [0:48:09] Transcendent God Champion: even though no one else has viewed it, ever.
  552. [0:48:18] Ketchi: because you're the only person able to define it
  553. [0:48:33] xyxx: Then, given a choice, would you prefer to be somelike like Shofu, who is decent at pokemon and is generally accepted by his viewers as an amazing battler, or someone who is actually the best at pokemon (say #1 in every tier with a 100% winrate) but no one acknowledges his achievements?
  554. [0:48:36] Ketchi: but that perspective is created from the knowledge of what other people's perspectives would be
  555. [0:48:54] Transcendent God Champion: I'd prefer being the latter.
  556. [0:49:05] Ketchi: well
  557. [0:49:11] Ketchi: disregarding the effort needed for each
  558. [0:49:13] Ketchi: and all other factors
  559. [0:49:18] Ketchi: honestly, someone like Shofu
  560. [0:49:29] Ketchi: I'd feel more proud of the popularity than my competency
  561. [0:49:47] Ketchi: fewer can say that they're popular than those that can say that they're good
  562. [0:49:59] Transcendent God Champion: I think I explained this before:
  563. [0:50:10] Transcendent God Champion: A person's popularity or reputation is not THEIR property,
  564. [0:50:16] Transcendent God Champion: but the property of those around them.
  565. [0:50:23] Transcendent God Champion: Did I explain this to you, Ketchi?
  566. [0:50:25] Ketchi: hmm, but I do feel like it's something to be proud of :P
  567. [0:50:25] Ketchi: yep
  568. [0:50:54] Transcendent God Champion: I think it only makes sense to be proud of what actually belongs to oneself.
  569. [0:50:57] Ketchi: I'd easily trade skill for popularity, assuming equal effort is needed on both parts
  570. [0:51:21] Ketchi: and as long as it followed my ethics
  571. [0:51:26] Transcendent God Champion: Tendetta, how would you answer your own question?
  572. [0:51:29] Transcendent God Champion: Just curious.
  573. [0:51:56] xyxx: Hmm, I'm torn between the options.
  574. [0:52:06] xyxx: But to be genuinely the best,
  575. [0:52:06] Ketchi: fascinating :3
  576. [0:52:10] xyxx: I'll take it.
  577. [0:52:15] Transcendent God Champion: :)
  578. [0:52:23] xyxx: This is like Justin Bieber right
  579. [0:52:28] Ketchi: hahahahaha
  580. [0:52:44] Transcendent God Champion: Except, the quality of music IS completely subjective :)
  581. [0:52:49] xyxx: Would you want to be Justin Bieber, with lots of fan girls, or some underground musician
  582. [0:52:50] xyxx: lol
  583. [0:53:30] xyxx: However, given that in the real world, it's really difficult to be truly the best at something, I would strive for something in between.
  584. [0:53:46] xyxx: And besides, if you're the smartest person in a room, then you're in the wrong room.
  585. [0:54:16] Transcendent God Champion: I don't agree with that :)
  586. [0:54:27] Transcendent God Champion: For me, it's like this:
  587. [0:54:39] Transcendent God Champion: "If you're in a room where you're unhappy, you're in the wrong room."
  588. [0:55:12] xyxx: Oh
  589. [0:55:20] xyxx: That's what I believe as well
  590. [0:55:40] xyxx: Because in the grand scheme of things, how SHOULD we live our lives?
  591. [0:55:52] xyxx: Every moment spent unhappy is a moment spent badly.
  592. [0:55:54] Transcendent God Champion: Like this:
  593. [0:56:02] Transcendent God Champion: Never do anything immoral,
  594. [0:56:07] Transcendent God Champion: never tolerate anything immoral,
  595. [0:56:12] Transcendent God Champion: and after having done all that,
  596. [0:56:21] Transcendent God Champion: aim to maximize the amount of happiness you experience.
  597. [0:56:32] Transcendent God Champion: That's all to me.
  598. [0:56:54] Transcendent God Champion: *never, within your power, tolerate anything immoral
  599. [0:57:01] Transcendent God Champion: That's more accurate actually.
  600. [0:57:02] xyxx: Yes.
  601. [0:57:05] xyxx: I completely agree now.
  602. [0:57:09] Ketchi: hmm
  603. [0:57:10] Transcendent God Champion: :)
  604. [0:57:19] Ketchi: you'd need to be really careful to not be arrogant
  605. [0:57:32] Ketchi: and terroism follows a nearly identical moral viewpoint
  606. [0:57:58] xyxx: We all do
  607. [0:58:02] Transcendent God Champion: Can you explain?
  608. [0:58:05] Ketchi: well
  609. [0:58:07] Ketchi: terroism
  610. [0:58:18] Ketchi: I'm sure that as a philosophy major, you've covered it at least slightly
  611. [0:58:26] Sir Monkington: Putting your happiness first implies putting others underneath you
  612. [0:58:33] Ketchi: but in my understanding, it's where you attempt to force your own ethics to be a fact
  613. [0:58:46] Ketchi: ^ that too
  614. [0:58:49] Transcendent God Champion: [0:58:26] Sir Monkington: Putting your happiness first implies putting others underneath you
  615. [0:58:53] Transcendent God Champion: There is no choice.
  616. [0:59:03] Transcendent God Champion: Everyone, even those who claim to not do it, do that.
  617. [0:59:11] Ketchi: true that
  618. [0:59:12] xyxx: That's true
  619. [0:59:14] Ketchi: mods
  620. [0:59:15] Ketchi: everyone
  621. [0:59:17] xyxx: LOL
  622. [0:59:17] Transcendent God Champion: Those who help others ultimately do so because it makes themselves happy.
  623. [0:59:23] xyxx: ^^^
  624. [0:59:28] xyxx: There is no true altruism.
  625. [0:59:30] Ketchi: yep
  626. [0:59:32] Sir Monkington: Well that's an awful thing to say
  627. [0:59:33] Sir Monkington: :(
  628. [0:59:37] Ketchi: but it's true :P
  629. [0:59:49] Ketchi: can't enter philosophy without detaching yourself
  630. [0:59:57] Ketchi: unless you want to feel horrible by the end of it
  631. [1:00:21] Ketchi: right?
  632. [1:00:30] Transcendent God Champion: True.
  633. [1:00:32] Transcendent God Champion: But well,
  634. [1:00:33] Transcendent God Champion: [0:58:33] Ketchi: but in my understanding, it's where you attempt to force your own ethics to be a fact
  635. [1:00:39] xyxx: [22:58:33] Sir Monkington: Putting your happiness first implies putting others underneath you
  636. [1:00:55] Transcendent God Champion: But if you don't believe your own ethics to be a fact,
  637. [1:01:02] xyxx: For me, I do care about other people, and if by putting others underneath myself, I won't be generating the largest amount of happiness.
  638. [1:01:12] Transcendent God Champion: then what is the point of having ethics then?
  639. [1:01:21] xyxx: So ultimately, I am still acting on happiness maximization.
  640. [1:01:27] Transcendent God Champion: Yeah, true.
  641. [1:02:28] Transcendent God Champion: If you acknowledge moral relativism...
  642. [1:02:38] Transcendent God Champion: ...and allow other people to act based on their own ethics,
  643. [1:02:55] Transcendent God Champion: then what if someone believes that "randomly slaughtering people for fun is OK"?
  644. [1:03:20] Transcendent God Champion: Are you going to say that that isn't an evil person just because what they're doing isn't immoral from their own point of view?
  645. [1:03:48] Sir Monkington: Well there's always going to be a nutcase
  646. [1:04:13] Sir Monkington: But we shouldn't assume everyone will decide that killing is ok just because of the actions of one guy
  647. [1:05:08] Transcendent God Champion: So it's justified to call someone else evil even if they believe that what they're doing is OK, based on their own moral code.
  648. [1:05:31] xyxx: Again, moral relativism exists.
  649. [1:05:36] xyxx: It's what you make of it that matters.
  650. [1:06:09] Transcendent God Champion: So, there's nothing wrong with forcing what one has detected through their own sense of Justice/conscience to be right to be facts.
  651. [1:06:47] Transcendent God Champion: No, there's no moral relativism.
  652. [1:06:57] Transcendent God Champion: I explained before, I believe moral values are absolute.
  653. Ladder match: The Pyromaniac vs. scarface755!
  654. [1:07:37] xyxx: But a certain person or a culture will have their own moral code.
  655. [1:07:44] xyxx: Even if there are absolute morals,
  656. [1:08:00] xyxx: there are examples in the world of people who do not acknowledge some morals
  657. [1:08:07] xyxx: After a couple of generations of starvation conditions, the Ik, originally a cooperative, child loving tribe, became a group of selfish cruel people who don’t trust or help anybody. They would desert children at an early age and one story Turnbull tells is how after abandoning a baby to be eaten by wild animals the animals were hunted an [sic] eaten
  658. [1:08:25] xyxx: Deserting children at an early age and leaving them to be eaten.
  659. [1:08:34] xyxx: That would surely be against the moral code of modern society
  660. [1:08:44] xyxx: That would be against my personal code as well
  661. [1:08:51] xyxx: However, it is not against theirs.
  662. [1:08:57] Transcendent God Champion: But what you're committing is a logical fallacy: the proto-argument from disagreement.
  663. [1:09:08] Ketchi: well
  664. [1:09:11] Ketchi: have you seen Star Trek?
  665. [1:09:43] Transcendent God Champion: "There is widespread disagreement pertaining to moral values across space and time, therefore moral values are subjective."
  666. [1:09:49] Ketchi: if you have, I'd like to draw attention to Klingons
  667. [1:09:53] Transcendent God Champion: That is wrong, the conclusion does not follow from the premise.
  668. [1:09:57] Transcendent God Champion: I haven't, Ketchi.
  669. [1:10:07] Ketchi: they do not act inappropriately in their own society, but very contrary to our own
  670. [1:10:17] Ketchi: it's a shame...
  671. [1:10:26] Sir Monkington: Yes please let's move on to Star Trek
  672. [1:10:26] Ketchi: it has some really heavy philosophy in it
  673. [1:10:45] Ketchi: with the prime directive and racial cultures and stuff
  674. [1:11:15] Ketchi: it crafted my own moral code quite well
  675. [1:12:24] Ketchi: what, did I really kill the discussion with that?
  676. [1:12:37] Transcendent God Champion: I'm listening to you...
  677. [1:13:00] Ketchi: oh
  678. [1:13:03] Ketchi: yeah, I"m done
  679. [1:13:08] Ketchi: just wanted to comment on Klingons
  680. [1:13:12] Transcendent God Champion: I see.
  681. [1:13:14] Ketchi: it's a real shame that you don't know it
  682. [1:13:34] Ketchi: (done)
  683. [1:13:41] Transcendent God Champion: Anyway, Tendetta, think of this:
  684. [1:13:49] Transcendent God Champion: Say there's five kids in a group:
  685. [1:14:13] Transcendent God Champion: One believes 1 + 1 = 3, one believes 1 + 1 = 4, one believes 1 + 1 = 5, etc.
  686. [1:14:25] Transcendent God Champion: There is widespread disagreement on what 1 + 1 is.
  687. [1:14:33] Transcendent God Champion: That doesn't mean there isn't a truth to it.
  688. [1:14:40] Transcendent God Champion: Do you get my point?
  689. [1:14:47] xyxx: Yes
  690. [1:14:54] xyxx: but i don't think maths is subjective
  691. Ladder match: Apacheman vs. Richardope!
  692. [1:15:09] Transcendent God Champion: I don't think morals are subjective either.
  693. [1:15:10] xyxx: I see the point if you meant different beliefs though
  694. [1:15:26] Transcendent God Champion: Hmm, how to explain it better...
  695. [1:15:37] I Got That TM87: Guys
  696. [1:15:41] I Got That TM87: I just found out
  697. [1:15:44] Transcendent God Champion: Say you see a tennis ball in front of you.
  698. [1:15:52] I Got That TM87: that in the mewtwo Pokemon movie you see Gary
  699. [1:15:59] I Got That TM87: lemme give you guys a link
  700. [1:16:05] Transcendent God Champion: Because of what your sense of sight has shown you,
  701. [1:16:08] Ketchi: lol, isn't that a bit off-topic?
  702. [1:16:18] Ketchi: interested though
  703. [1:16:21] Ketchi: just a bit off-topic
  704. [1:16:22] I Got That TM87: http://youtu.be/roMB4NabzNY?t=8m6s
  705. [1:16:23] Transcendent God Champion: you consider it to be an objective fact that there is a tennis ball in front of you, right?
  706. [1:16:32] xyxx: Yes
  707. [1:16:39] I Got That TM87: Was rewatching
  708. [1:16:45] Transcendent God Champion: Yes, I know it, TM87. It's in the Mewtwo VS. Arcanine and Nidoking scene.
  709. [1:16:59] xyxx: but my theory of knowledge class taught me to question my senses.
  710. [1:17:15] xyxx: But yes
  711. [1:17:28] Transcendent God Champion: Now, if you hear a bell ringing with your eyes, you consider it an objective fact that there's a bell or bell-like sound coming from somewhere near you, right?
  712. [1:17:34] Transcendent God Champion: *ears
  713. [1:17:39] xyxx: yes
  714. [1:17:46] I Got That TM87: Sorry I just came here because I thought I should share it. I didn't realize it when I was younger.
  715. [1:17:47] Transcendent God Champion: OK, now...
  716. [1:17:52] Transcendent God Champion: The way I see it,
  717. [1:17:59] Transcendent God Champion: the "sense of Justice or "conscience"...
  718. [1:18:06] Transcendent God Champion: ...is no different from the five senses.
  719. [1:18:07] xyxx: everybody does, schizophrenic patients believe in their visions.
  720. [1:18:20] Transcendent God Champion: It is, to me, the "sixth sense".
  721. [1:18:21] Transcendent God Champion: So,
  722. [1:18:30] xyxx: But if you put it that way, then everyone would come to the same conclusion
  723. [1:18:35] Transcendent God Champion: if my sense of Justice/conscience tells me what is right and wrong,
  724. [1:18:54] Wanted Deino: Anyone wants to battle?
  725. [1:18:55] Transcendent God Champion: I, by the same logic, take what that sense has told me to be the truth.
  726. [1:19:11] I Got That TM87: Lemme make a quick team to test, Delno
  727. [1:19:29] Wanted Deino: alright.
  728. [1:19:59] scarface755: i think morals are subjective
  729. [1:20:03] xyxx: But if you assume the sense of conscience is a sense like the five senses, then everyone would come to the same moral conclusion in a given event.
  730. [1:20:19] Transcendent God Champion: No, Tendetta, people don't do that even with the five senses.
  731. [1:20:29] Transcendent God Champion: For example, someone may be a color blind,
  732. [1:20:36] Transcendent God Champion: or have inferior eyesight,
  733. [1:20:49] Transcendent God Champion: and thus observe different things with such senses.
  734. [1:20:53] xyxx: Hmm, I see where you're getting at
  735. [1:22:10] xyxx: So, by extension, one absolute moral code is right, while the others are wrong, correct?
  736. [1:22:17] Transcendent God Champion: Yes.
  737. [1:22:23] scarface755: thats subjective
  738. [1:22:25] xyxx: Then what defines the absolute moral code?
  739. [1:22:28] xyxx: Who defines it?
  740. [1:22:32] scarface755: society your living it
  741. [1:22:39] Transcendent God Champion: No one defines it.
  742. [1:22:41] scarface755: *in
  743. [1:22:55] Transcendent God Champion: That which is morally good is not good because people say it's good.
  744. [1:23:15] scarface755: what is morally good is decided by people
  745. [1:23:15] Transcendent God Champion: People who correctly say that something is morally good say that BECAUSE it is morally good.
  746. [1:23:28] Transcendent God Champion: No, it's not DECIDED by people.
  747. [1:23:33] Transcendent God Champion: It's IDENTIFIED by people.
  748. [1:23:41] scarface755: in most societies we consider practicing cannabilism bad
  749. [1:23:47] scarface755: but in new guinea
  750. [1:23:52] scarface755: its acceptable
  751. [1:24:02] scarface755: their society determines that is bad
  752. [1:24:07] Transcendent God Champion: Again, that's the proto-argument from disagreement.
  753. [1:24:21] Transcendent God Champion: "There is widespread disagreement pertaining to moral values across space and time, therefore moral values are subjective." is your argument, right?
  754. [1:25:12] scarface755: there is no one person who gets to decide whats right and wrong
  755. [1:25:33] Transcendent God Champion: I agree, no one DECIDES.
  756. [1:25:37] Transcendent God Champion: They IDENTIFY.
  757. [1:26:09] scarface755: so how can they be objective then
  758. [1:26:15] xyxx: Let's say there are 10 rules in the absolute moral code of human beings.
  759. [1:26:29] Transcendent God Champion: I already explained that in complete detail, scarface755.
  760. [1:26:32] xyxx: Peter identifies 7 rules, and that is his personal code of ethics.
  761. [1:26:33] scarface755: hypothetically?
  762. [1:26:35] Transcendent God Champion: Scroll up.
  763. [1:26:42] xyxx: Sam identifies 9 rules, and that is his code.
  764. [1:27:03] xyxx: Is that what you mean, Champion?
  765. [1:27:15] xyxx: That everyone identifies portions of the same code?
  766. [1:27:30] Transcendent God Champion: Not necessarily.
  767. [1:27:36] Transcendent God Champion: What I mean is this:
  768. [1:27:47] Transcendent God Champion: Everyone, through their conscience/sense of Justice,
  769. [1:28:01] Transcendent God Champion: TRIES to identify what is morally right and wrong.
  770. [1:28:07] Transcendent God Champion: However,
  771. [1:28:15] Transcendent God Champion: if people disagree,
  772. [1:28:31] Transcendent God Champion: only ONE set of moral rules is absolutely right.
  773. [1:28:41] Transcendent God Champion: But of course,
  774. [1:28:48] Transcendent God Champion: in theory at least,
  775. [1:29:08] Transcendent God Champion: EVERYONE is going to say that what THEIR own sense of Justice/conscience tells them is right.
  776. [1:29:11] Transcendent God Champion: In the same way...
  777. [1:29:14] xyxx: Oh
  778. [1:29:17] xyxx: then I agree
  779. [1:29:23] scarface755: i dont believe there can be one set of moral rules that can be right over all others
  780. [1:29:29] Transcendent God Champion: ...if two people look at a tree with green leaves,
  781. [1:29:33] Transcendent God Champion: and one is color blind,
  782. [1:29:48] Transcendent God Champion: the color blind people will BELIEVE that the tree has leaves of a different color.
  783. [1:30:00] xyxx: Because that is what he perceives.
  784. [1:30:04] Transcendent God Champion: Yes.
  785. [1:30:10] Transcendent God Champion: But that doesn't mean he is right.
  786. [1:30:14] Ketchi: welp, my conversation with Victini just ended
  787. [1:30:18] xyxx: Ah
  788. [1:30:18] Ketchi: -reads convo so far-
  789. [1:30:25] xyxx: I agree then.
  790. [1:30:26] Transcendent God Champion: Only the people who conclude that the tree has green leaves are right.
  791. [1:30:30] Transcendent God Champion: I see.
  792. Challenge: I Got That TM87 vs. Wanted Deino!
  793. [1:30:42] Ketchi: so
  794. [1:30:44] scarface755: because thats the label we gave it
  795. [1:30:49] Ketchi: where are we at?
  796. [1:30:51] xyxx: btw Ketchi, I made a pokebattle thread on our clan forums, feel free to check it out :]
  797. [1:30:51] scarface755: and in that example you are correct
  798. [1:30:55] Ketchi: what have people agreed upon?
  799. [1:31:00] Ketchi: oh, cool
  800. [1:31:04] Ketchi: shall do that some time
  801. [1:31:14] Transcendent God Champion: http://dragonmasters.forumeiros.eu/t299-pokebattle-discussion Here it is.
  802. [1:31:20] Transcendent God Champion: Also,
  803. [1:31:21] Ketchi: lol, thanks
  804. [1:31:29] Transcendent God Champion: one of you guys should post this conversation here: http://dragonmasters.forumeiros.eu/t214-interesting-conversations-thread
  805. [1:31:41] Transcendent God Champion: I was the last person to reply to that thread, so I can't.
  806. [1:31:45] xyxx: lol
  807. [1:31:47] xyxx: I will
  808. [1:31:47] Ethan: How are y'all liking the PB update?
  809. [1:31:50] scarface755: but say in some other country they were taught that green was really blue
  810. [1:31:54] xyxx: This was indeed very interesting.
  811. [1:32:01] xyxx: Ethan, I like it a lot.
  812. [1:32:01] Transcendent God Champion: True.
  813. [1:32:03] xyxx: :)
  814. [1:32:04] scarface755: they would be wrong by our standards
  815. [1:32:08] Transcendent God Champion: [1:31:50] scarface755: but say in some other country they were taught that green was really blue
  816. [1:32:13] scarface755: and we would be wrong by their standards
  817. [1:32:15] Transcendent God Champion: That's just a difference in language.
  818. [1:32:20] xyxx: Yes.
  819. [1:32:24] Transcendent God Champion: Nothing to do with what we're talking about.
  820. [1:32:27] Ketchi: oh yes
  821. [1:32:31] Ketchi: about that objective truths thing
  822. [1:32:40] Ketchi: unless proved by stuff like that 1+1=2 thing
  823. [1:32:44] Ketchi: nothing is true
  824. [1:32:53] Ketchi: for example
  825. [1:32:59] Transcendent God Champion: Descartes' demon?
  826. [1:33:02] Ketchi: a thousand years ago or something, they thought the world was flat
  827. [1:33:11] Ketchi: they were apparently wrong
  828. [1:33:14] Ketchi: we might be wrong too
  829. [1:33:21] Ketchi: yet, we entirely believe it
  830. [1:33:27] Transcendent God Champion: Yes, I completely agree with your point.
  831. [1:33:30] Ketchi: and we can act completely as if it is true
  832. [1:33:35] Ethan: That's great to hear xyxx. Be sure to thank Sarenji and Super when they log in for their "super" work on the sim!
  833. [1:33:47] Transcendent God Champion: We act completely as if it's true for one reason:
  834. [1:33:51] xyxx: Ah I already thanked Sarenji !
  835. [1:34:05] Transcendent God Champion: People HAVE to hold beliefs.
  836. [1:34:06] xyxx: He was here just now, fixing glitches, evidently working hard for the sake of this blooming community. :)
  837. [1:34:13] Ketchi: and I agree with that ^^
  838. [1:34:25] Transcendent God Champion: If someone held absolutely no beliefs whatsoever just because nothing can be proven,
  839. [1:34:25] scarface755: i agree with that as well
  840. [1:34:34] scarface755: when it comes to right and wrong
  841. [1:34:39] Ketchi: but I think that ethics are comparable
  842. [1:34:43] scarface755: and the way things are defined
  843. [1:34:45] Transcendent God Champion: they wouldn't hold the belief that "moving one's leg forward allows them to walk",
  844. [1:34:52] Transcendent God Champion: or "if I eat, I will cease to starve"
  845. [1:34:55] Ketchi: man, it would be so much easier if you knew Star Trek...
  846. [1:34:55] scarface755: it works but ethics is a completly different ballpark
  847. [1:35:07] scarface755: they are comparable
  848. [1:35:13] scarface755: but its different
  849. [1:36:12] scarface755: we can all agree that 1+1 is 2 because by definition thats what it equals and anything else would be wrong
  850. [1:36:28] Ketchi: well
  851. [1:36:39] Ketchi: if we define 2 as equalling 1+1, then yes
  852. [1:36:49] scarface755: or 2+0
  853. [1:37:06] Ketchi: I guess that because math is something we created, it is able to be objective
  854. [1:37:13] scarface755: exactly
  855. [1:37:14] Ketchi: ethics... are...
  856. [1:37:16] Ketchi: huh...
  857. [1:37:21] xyxx: Everyone holds to their own beliefs
  858. [1:37:21] Ketchi: champ has a good point
  859. [1:37:27] xyxx: There may be truth,
  860. [1:37:34] scarface755: you cant hold your own beliefs on math
  861. [1:37:36] xyxx: but people may not be able to see it as such.
  862. [1:37:40] scarface755: its either right or wrong
  863. [1:37:57] scarface755: but ethics is completly different
  864. [1:38:05] Ketchi: hmm
  865. [1:38:07] Ketchi: well
  866. [1:38:14] scarface755: thats why there is so much variation with different religions
  867. [1:38:16] Ketchi: ethics, like math, is a construct of the mind
  868. [1:38:21] Transcendent God Champion: Scarface755,
  869. [1:38:27] Ketchi: right and wrong are how we define them
  870. [1:38:30] Ketchi: just like math
  871. [1:38:37] Transcendent God Champion: did you see my comparison of the sense of Justice/conscience with the five senses?
  872. [1:38:42] Transcendent God Champion: As I talked about above?
  873. [1:38:56] Ketchi: if it was between 1 and 1.30, probably not
  874. [1:39:06] xyxx: I don't believe it's like maths tbh...
  875. [1:39:11] Ketchi: hmm
  876. [1:39:22] Ketchi: I don't think we'll agree on anything ><
  877. [1:39:34] xyxx: Ketchi, so you think maths is subjective?
  878. [1:40:21] Ketchi: I think it is objective
  879. [1:40:32] Ketchi: but that anything objective is a sum of the beliefs people have in it
  880. [1:40:41] scarface755: yes
  881. [1:41:03] xyxx: So if enough people believe 1+1=4 then it is objectively true?
  882. Ladder match: xyxx vs. Wanted Deino!
  883. [1:41:08] Ketchi: yes
  884. [1:41:19] scarface755: yeah
  885. [1:41:26] scarface755: we can change definitions of things
  886. [1:41:35] Transcendent God Champion: So, do you agree that "X is morally right" is as objective as "a tennis ball is in front of me", scarface755?
  887. [1:41:56] Ketchi: (assuming that there is in fact a tennis ball in front of you)_
  888. [1:42:21] Ketchi: but anyway, I don't think that is the case
  889. [1:42:27] xyxx: Then what if people deny that a tennis ball is in front of you?
  890. [1:42:28] scarface755: no i dont
  891. [1:42:31] xyxx: What would be the truth then.
  892. [1:42:59] scarface755: i dont see a tennis ball being in front of someone and say believing that something like abortion is wrong
  893. [1:43:05] scarface755: as the same
  894. [1:43:33] Ketchi: honestly, I never understood that whole "abortion is wrong" thing...
  895. [1:43:40] xyxx: Me neither
  896. [1:43:50] Ketchi: like...
  897. [1:43:53] Transcendent God Champion: Scarface755,
  898. [1:44:00] scarface755: reasons like that is why i think morality is subjective
  899. [1:44:06] scarface755: im not saying im right or wrong
  900. [1:44:10] Transcendent God Champion: Seeing something with one's sense of sight,
  901. [1:44:12] scarface755: its just what i think
  902. [1:44:18] Ketchi: even the bible comments on souls being given to those who are completely wound together within the womb, not incompletely
  903. [1:44:22] Transcendent God Champion: and detecting something to be wrong through one's sense of Justice,
  904. [1:44:27] Transcendent God Champion: what's the difference?
  905. [1:45:01] Ketchi: idk what anyone else here believes in though
  906. [1:45:21] Ketchi: but from a christian perspective, I just don't get it
  907. [1:45:25] scarface755: the difference is that depending on your religious beliefs alters your answer on that where as it doesn't for seeing something in front of you
  908. [1:46:07] Transcendent God Champion: But things like color blindness, myopia, etc affect what you see, no?
  909. [1:46:15] scarface755: if something like a tennis ball
  910. [1:46:19] Transcendent God Champion: So you can behold the same sight as someone else,
  911. [1:46:25] Transcendent God Champion: and yet come to a different conclusion.
  912. [1:46:44] scarface755: so your saying someone is seeing something other than a tennis ball
  913. [1:47:08] scarface755: something that we can define
  914. [1:47:24] scarface755: with certainty like math
  915. [1:47:46] scarface755: and something that can change due to religion are the same?
  916. [1:48:03] scarface755: i dont think they are the same
  917. [1:48:22] xyxx: I don't think maths and morals are comparably in that regard
  918. [1:48:40] scarface755: my point exactly
  919. [1:48:47] scarface755: there not the same
  920. [1:48:49] Transcendent God Champion: You think that something is moral or immoral because your sense of Justice tells you that.
  921. [1:49:07] Transcendent God Champion: You think a tennis ball is in front of you because your sense of sight tells you that.
  922. [1:49:13] Transcendent God Champion: If religion gets in the way,
  923. [1:49:21] scarface755: yes which changes with different cultures
  924. Ladder match: Apacheman vs. The Pyromaniac!
  925. [1:49:23] Transcendent God Champion: what your sense of Justice tells you is distorted.
  926. [1:49:35] Transcendent God Champion: If myopia, color blindness, etc gets in the way,
  927. [1:49:44] Transcendent God Champion: what your sense of sight tells you is distorted.
  928. [1:50:03] Transcendent God Champion: They're comparable.
  929. [1:51:01] scarface755: the color example doesnt work
  930. Ladder match: Wanted Deino vs. xyxx!
  931. [1:51:27] Transcendent God Champion: Well, say the proposition was
  932. [1:51:28] scarface755: scientists have no way of knowing that what you see as green and what i see as green are actually the same
  933. [1:51:37] Transcendent God Champion: "There's a yellow tennis ball in front of me"
  934. [1:51:58] scarface755: what two people are actually seeing is unknown
  935. [1:52:18] scarface755: but we agree what the definition is that we were given when we learned about colors
  936. [1:52:25] Transcendent God Champion: So you're claiming that "there's a yellow tennis ball in front of me" can never be objective?
  937. [1:52:35] Ketchi: it's funny how this all began from judging between choosing what is ethical or choosing what is according to the rules in regards to banning someone
  938. [1:52:42] scarface755: no that can be true
  939. [1:53:06] Transcendent God Champion: In the same way, then, "X action is morally wrong" can be true,
  940. [1:53:08] Ketchi: yup, sorry for the interruption
  941. [1:53:09] scarface755: im just saying even color itself isnt exactly objective
  942. [1:53:15] Transcendent God Champion: even if not a single person believes it to be true.
  943. [1:53:18] Ketchi: have fun, I'm going to bed
  944. [1:53:19] Transcendent God Champion: OK.
  945. [1:53:24] Transcendent God Champion: See you, Ketchi.
  946. [1:53:27] Ketchi: hopefully we'll get open beta before I wake up ^^
  947. [1:53:32] scarface755: see you ketchi
  948. [1:53:34] Transcendent God Champion: Yeah :)
  949. [1:53:39] Ketchi: actually, it's likely
  950. [1:53:44] Ketchi: I'll try to wake up extra-soon
  951. [1:54:02] Ketchi: all the bugs have been sorted out except for the challenge buttons
  952. [1:54:10] Ketchi: bye :)
  953. [1:54:15] Transcendent God Champion: Bye :)
  954. [1:54:59] xyxx: Bye Ketchi :)
  955. [1:55:04] scarface755: it doesnt matter what you think about color we dont have any evidence stating that what 2 people are seeing in regards to color is actually the same
  956. [1:55:31] scarface755: as far as shape were seeing the same thing
  957. [1:55:31] Transcendent God Champion: OK,
  958. [1:55:50] Transcendent God Champion: but various eyesight disabilities change that, no?
  959. [1:56:06] Transcendent God Champion: Or someone might have an illusion,
  960. [1:56:15] Transcendent God Champion: and claim to have seen something that doesn't exist.
  961. [1:56:56] scarface755: yes they do but eye color still remains subjective even with certain disabilities
  962. [1:57:05] scarface755: when someone makes a claim
  963. [1:57:23] scarface755: they have to provide evidence
  964. [1:57:38] scarface755: or there is no obligation to believe them
  965. [1:57:49] Transcendent God Champion: OK, consider this then:
  966. [1:58:03] Transcendent God Champion: At a certain point in time, you are the one and only person looking up at the sky.
  967. [1:58:09] Transcendent God Champion: You see a shooting star.
  968. [1:58:12] Transcendent God Champion: You say that.
  969. [1:58:16] scarface755: ok
  970. [1:58:17] Transcendent God Champion: No one believes you,
  971. [1:58:18] Transcendent God Champion: and yes,
  972. [1:58:26] Transcendent God Champion: they're under no obligation to believe you.
  973. [1:58:30] scarface755: yes
  974. [1:58:46] Transcendent God Champion: Does this mean that you consider the fact that there was a shooting star in the sky at the time to be subjective?
  975. [2:01:34] scarface755: thats a really good question but there isnt a clear answer to it, you would obviously consider it to be objective because of the consensus of what a shooting star is, but if no one else saw it, it would be considered subjective by everyone
  976. [2:02:42] scarface755: its like saying you saw a ghost
  977. [2:03:24] Transcendent God Champion: That's not how I see it.
  978. [2:03:29] Transcendent God Champion: To me, subjective is this:
  979. [2:03:33] scarface755: you could have seen one and they very well may be real, but everyone needs to agree on it for it to be widely considered objective
  980. [2:03:36] Apacheman: It seems pretty objetive to me
  981. [2:03:45] Transcendent God Champion: "Chocolate tastes better than vanilla."
  982. [2:03:48] scarface755: the shooting star?
  983. [2:03:53] Apacheman: yeah
  984. [2:03:54] Transcendent God Champion: "Gold is more beautiful than silver."
  985. [2:03:59] scarface755: i agree that the shooting star is objective
  986. [2:04:02] Transcendent God Champion: Things like that,
  987. [2:04:05] Transcendent God Champion: are subjective.
  988. [2:04:14] Transcendent God Champion: But that which is objective...
  989. [2:04:27] Transcendent God Champion: ...is true INDEPENDENT on what anyone believes.
  990. [2:04:41] scarface755: yes
  991. [2:04:43] Apacheman: or false.
  992. [2:04:46] Transcendent God Champion: Say there's a planet made of cheese somewhere billions of light years away.
  993. [2:04:56] Transcendent God Champion: Not a single person on Earth believes that,
  994. [2:05:05] Transcendent God Champion: because they can't detect it as it's too far away.
  995. [2:05:09] scarface755: you would be suprised
  996. [2:05:12] Transcendent God Champion: But there is still a TRUTH
  997. [2:05:19] Transcendent God Champion: regarding whether or not that planet.
  998. [2:05:28] Transcendent God Champion: Truth is independent on anyone's belief about anything.
  999. [2:05:48] scarface755: yes
  1000. [2:05:51] Transcendent God Champion: *regarding whether or not that planet exists
  1001. [2:05:57] Transcendent God Champion: So yes,
  1002. [2:06:01] scarface755: i was about to say that about the shooting star analogy
  1003. [2:06:05] Transcendent God Champion: back to the shooting star example,
  1004. [2:06:16] Transcendent God Champion: there is a TRUTH about whether or not that shooting star was in the sky.
  1005. [2:06:19] Transcendent God Champion: You saw it.
  1006. [2:06:26] Transcendent God Champion: So unless you question your sense of sight,
  1007. [2:06:28] scarface755: wait
  1008. [2:06:35] scarface755: before we continue
  1009. [2:06:36] Transcendent God Champion: you are completely justified to say it's objective.
  1010. [2:07:15] scarface755: is this shooting star that was spotted by you actually there or is it just you saying you saw one
  1011. [2:07:39] scarface755: it does matter
  1012. [2:07:41] Transcendent God Champion: You're claiming "at X point in time, there was a shooting star in the sky"
  1013. [2:08:13] scarface755: for arguments sake is a shooting star actually there you see it and tell everyone around you that you saw one
  1014. [2:08:22] scarface755: or are you just saying you saw one
  1015. [2:08:41] Transcendent God Champion: You see one, it's actually there, and you say you saw it.
  1016. [2:08:49] Transcendent God Champion: But only you saw it.
  1017. [2:09:00] scarface755: then it is objective and everyone else would be wrong
  1018. [2:09:16] Transcendent God Champion: Why can't the same be said about moral values then?
  1019. [2:09:26] Transcendent God Champion: You're acknowledging that something can be objective
  1020. [2:09:34] Transcendent God Champion: even IF you can't prove it to others.
  1021. Ladder match: .: Victory Star :. vs. PBKing!
  1022. [2:12:08] scarface755: the thing that muddies the water with this is that most things we dont have the answers to because they
  1023. [2:12:14] scarface755: *they're
  1024. [2:12:19] scarface755: not provable
  1025. [2:12:39] scarface755: did a shooting star pass by yes
  1026. [2:12:52] scarface755: im with my friend that saw it and i didnt see it
  1027. [2:13:15] scarface755: i cant take his word for it because he cant prove that it happened
  1028. [2:13:24] scarface755: could it of happened yes
  1029. [2:13:45] scarface755: in that case you would be stuck saying i dont know
  1030. [2:13:57] scarface755: which is the position of most things
  1031. [2:14:47] scarface755: im not a religious person and i dont think there was a flood that killed all life on the planet except a few things on a giant ark
  1032. [2:14:56] scarface755: could it of happened though yes
  1033. [2:15:14] scarface755: it could very well be objective that it happened
  1034. [2:15:24] scarface755: but there is no way of proving this
  1035. [2:15:34] scarface755: but when it comes to things like choices
  1036. [2:15:58] scarface755: like thinking abortion is right or wrong, there is no right answer
  1037. [2:16:02] scarface755: at least not yes
  1038. [2:16:05] scarface755: *yet
  1039. [2:16:41] scarface755: something like that hasn't been widely agreed on by everyone whether its right or wrong
  1040. [2:17:12] scarface755: and it doesnt rely on an event that happened at a given time
  1041. [2:17:46] scarface755: get what i'm saying?
  1042. [2:17:54] Transcendent God Champion: Let me try to understand.
  1043. Ladder match: The Pyromaniac vs. FoSho!
  1044. [2:18:32] Transcendent God Champion: I think fundamentally...
  1045. [2:18:46] Transcendent God Champion: ...we have different definitions of "subjective" and "objective".
  1046. [2:19:06] Transcendent God Champion: You think that which we don't know is always subjective,
  1047. [2:19:14] Transcendent God Champion: even though a truth exists about the matter,
  1048. [2:19:23] scarface755: no i dont
  1049. [2:19:37] Transcendent God Champion: whereas I think that which is subjective is ONLY limited to what is REALLY different for everyone,
  1050. [2:19:39] scarface755: what we dont know could either be objective or subjective
  1051. [2:19:48] Transcendent God Champion: like "chocolate tastes better than vanilla"
  1052. [2:20:17] Transcendent God Champion: So let me get this straight:
  1053. [2:20:37] scarface755: chocolate tastes better than vanilla is subjective
  1054. [2:20:39] Transcendent God Champion: If you're the only one who saw the shooting star, then would YOU say it's objective or subjective that there was a shooting star at the time?
  1055. [2:20:42] scarface755: but it can be objective
  1056. [2:21:02] scarface755: it would be objective
  1057. [2:21:09] Transcendent God Champion: "Chocolate tastes better than vanilla for Person X" is objective.
  1058. [2:21:22] Transcendent God Champion: "Chocolate tastes better than vanilla" is subjective.
  1059. [2:21:35] scarface755: it is
  1060. [2:21:40] Transcendent God Champion: So...
  1061. [2:21:43] scarface755: but it can be objective
  1062. [2:21:44] Transcendent God Champion: [2:20:39] Transcendent God Champion: If you're the only one who saw the shooting star, then would YOU say it's objective or subjective that there was a shooting star at the time?
  1063. [2:22:30] scarface755: its objective but no one would have the obligation to believe that it was objective since you dont have proof
  1064. [2:22:38] Transcendent God Champion: OK.
  1065. [2:22:49] Transcendent God Champion: Then here's my position regarding morality:
  1066. [2:23:06] Transcendent God Champion: My sense of Justice/conscience tells me X action is wrong,
  1067. [2:23:13] scarface755: ok
  1068. [2:23:15] Transcendent God Champion: so because I detected that with one of my senses,
  1069. [2:23:32] Transcendent God Champion: I'd say it is objectively true that X action is wrong.
  1070. [2:23:40] Transcendent God Champion: But of course,
  1071. [2:23:46] Transcendent God Champion: others wouldn't buy that.
  1072. [2:23:57] Transcendent God Champion: Can you agree on that view?
  1073. [2:24:09] Transcendent God Champion: *wouldn't necessarily buy that
  1074. [2:24:29] scarface755: yes but that's not objective
  1075. [2:24:42] scarface755: its different when it comes to thoughts
  1076. [2:24:53] scarface755: thoughts and actual events is what changes things
  1077. [2:25:09] Transcendent God Champion: But you see,
  1078. [2:25:19] Transcendent God Champion: the way I see it,
  1079. [2:25:23] scarface755: saying you think you saw a shooting star is completely different then actually seeing it
  1080. [2:25:33] Transcendent God Champion: moral values are REAL things.
  1081. [2:25:40] Transcendent God Champion: They exist in the universe.
  1082. [2:25:44] Transcendent God Champion: They're intangible,
  1083. [2:25:50] Transcendent God Champion: and have no physical form,
  1084. [2:25:55] Transcendent God Champion: but they exist in the universe,
  1085. [2:26:05] Transcendent God Champion: they're not just thoughts or constructions of the mind,
  1086. [2:26:17] Transcendent God Champion: and my sense of Justice/conscience detects these real things,
  1087. [2:26:25] Transcendent God Champion: in the same way the five senses detect real things.
  1088. [2:26:51] Transcendent God Champion: You might say I can't prove that.
  1089. [2:26:53] Transcendent God Champion: That's true.
  1090. [2:26:58] Transcendent God Champion: I indeed can't prove that.
  1091. [2:27:10] Transcendent God Champion: But I can't prove that ANY of what I hear or see is real either,
  1092. [2:27:18] Transcendent God Champion: due to descartes' demon.
  1093. Ladder match: FoSho vs. .: Victory Star :.!
  1094. [2:29:32] scarface755: yes
  1095. [2:32:51] scarface755: anything that is subjective can change at any time to objective given a change in agreement, but not everything objective can change to subjective
  1096. [2:33:38] Transcendent God Champion: That's not how I see it.
  1097. [2:33:43] Transcendent God Champion: Consider this question:
  1098. [2:33:51] Transcendent God Champion: "Is there a planet out there made of cheese?"
  1099. [2:34:03] Transcendent God Champion: People would answer: "I don't know"
  1100. [2:34:09] scarface755: yes
  1101. [2:34:10] Transcendent God Champion: No one can prove yes or no,
  1102. [2:34:14] scarface755: there could be one
  1103. [2:34:18] scarface755: there may not be one
  1104. [2:34:22] Transcendent God Champion: but it's still an objective matter to me.
  1105. [2:34:23] scarface755: there is no way of knowing
  1106. [2:34:33] scarface755: doesnt matter what you think it is
  1107. [2:34:33] Transcendent God Champion: Can you see how that matter is different from:
  1108. [2:34:37] scarface755: without evidence
  1109. [2:34:48] Transcendent God Champion: "Which tastes better, chocolate or vanilla?"
  1110. [2:34:59] Transcendent God Champion: The above question's answer is different for EVERYONE.
  1111. [2:35:03] scarface755: yes
  1112. [2:35:06] scarface755: but that can change
  1113. [2:35:09] Transcendent God Champion: There is NO objective truth whatsoever to that question,
  1114. [2:35:14] Transcendent God Champion: No, it can't.
  1115. [2:35:18] Transcendent God Champion: It will NEVER change.
  1116. [2:35:22] scarface755: yes, at least not right now
  1117. [2:35:24] scarface755: it can
  1118. [2:35:30] scarface755: is it plausible
  1119. [2:35:32] scarface755: yes
  1120. [2:35:39] scarface755: but extremely unlikely
  1121. [2:35:56] Transcendent God Champion: But "is there a planet made of cheese?" IS an objective matter, and we CAN determine an answer someday.
  1122. [2:36:05] scarface755: you can get everyone in the world to agree that vanilla is better than chocolat
  1123. [2:36:22] scarface755: as unlikely as it is
  1124. [2:36:43] scarface755: we dont no the answer to that
  1125. [2:36:48] Transcendent God Champion: No, it doesn't work that way.
  1126. [2:36:58] scarface755: we dont know if there is a definate size to the universe yet
  1127. [2:37:05] Transcendent God Champion: Objectivity and subjectivity has nothing to do with people's agreements on the matter.
  1128. [2:37:23] scarface755: theres no way of knowing if there could possibly be a planet made out of cheese
  1129. [2:37:24] Transcendent God Champion: That which is objective: There is a TRUTH.
  1130. [2:37:33] scarface755: it has everything to do with it
  1131. [2:37:37] scarface755: yes
  1132. [2:37:37] Transcendent God Champion: That which is subjective: There is NO universal truth for everyone.
  1133. [2:37:39] Transcendent God Champion: That's it.
  1134. [2:37:42] scarface755: yes
  1135. [2:37:48] ausogle: Np
  1136. [2:37:52] ausogle: moop
  1137. [2:37:56] Transcendent God Champion: It has nothing to do with whether or not something can be proven to others.
  1138. [2:38:17] ausogle: Hey guys! theres no mods! NO RULES!!!!
  1139. [2:38:29] Transcendent God Champion: "Is there a planet made of cheese?" - Even if no one knows the answer, an objective truth on the matter exists.
  1140. [2:38:33] Transcendent God Champion: Either yes or no.
  1141. [2:38:44] ausogle: does find battle work?
  1142. [2:38:46] scarface755: yes
  1143. [2:38:47] ausogle: yet
  1144. [2:38:51] ausogle: cool
  1145. [2:39:08] Transcendent God Champion: But "does chocolate taste better than vanilla?" - The truth on this matter doesn't even exist if it's not relative to a person.
  1146. [2:39:23] Transcendent God Champion: THAT'S the difference between objective and subjective.
  1147. Ladder match: FoSho vs. ausogle!
  1148. [2:39:35] Transcendent God Champion: Whether or not you can prove something to others has nothing to do with it.
  1149. [2:39:41] scarface755: i agree
  1150. [2:39:47] Transcendent God Champion: How many people agree on the matter has nothing to do with it.
  1151. [2:40:02] scarface755: you cant prove that vanilla is better than chocolate
  1152. [2:40:09] scarface755: you can give your opinions
  1153. [2:40:14] Transcendent God Champion: Exactly.
  1154. [2:40:56] scarface755: but it could one day be objective that vanilla is better than chocolate
  1155. [2:41:11] scarface755: if everyone agrees that it is
  1156. [2:41:23] Transcendent God Champion: No, it couldn't.
  1157. [2:41:24] scarface755: just like the answers to math can change
  1158. [2:41:35] scarface755: does 1+1=2
  1159. [2:41:56] Transcendent God Champion: Because vanilla tasting better than chocolate would STILL be relative to every person who tastes that way.
  1160. [2:42:18] scarface755: does 1+1=2
  1161. [2:42:21] Transcendent God Champion: Everyone agreeing that vanilla tastes chocolate doesn't mean that matter isn't subjective.
  1162. [2:42:46] scarface755: im giving you a different example does 1+1=2
  1163. [2:42:54] Transcendent God Champion: Yes.
  1164. [2:43:07] scarface755: would you say this is objective or subjective
  1165. [2:43:12] Transcendent God Champion: Objective.
  1166. [2:43:18] scarface755: and i would agree
  1167. [2:43:21] scarface755: however
  1168. [2:44:10] scarface755: if you got every single person on this planet to agree that it should equal 3 and that was the new rule, 1+1 would now equal 3
  1169. [2:44:26] scarface755: it would then become objective that 1+1=3
  1170. Ladder match: blissey vs. .: Victory Star :.!
  1171. [2:44:39] scarface755: same way with ice cream flavor
  1172. [2:44:59] scarface755: extremely unlikely yes
  1173. [2:45:11] scarface755: but plausible none the less
  1174. [2:45:13] Transcendent God Champion: No,
  1175. [2:45:26] Transcendent God Champion: 1 + 1 = 3 wouldn't be the objective truth even in that scenario.
  1176. [2:45:27] Transcendent God Champion: But eh,
  1177. [2:45:35] Transcendent God Champion: let's just say that our definitions are different.
  1178. [2:45:37] Transcendent God Champion: Ultimately,
  1179. [2:45:43] scarface755: yes it would
  1180. [2:45:46] Transcendent God Champion: our disagreement is on a matter of semantics.
  1181. [2:45:53] scarface755: we as humans invented math
  1182. [2:46:09] Transcendent God Champion: We fundamentally define "objective" and "subjective" differently.
  1183. [2:46:52] scarface755: i dont see how you dont agree with this
  1184. [2:47:01] scarface755: numbers are a human construct
  1185. [2:47:09] Luxuryball13: anyone wanna battle
  1186. [2:47:16] Luxuryball13: i wanna test my team'
  1187. [2:47:22] scarface755: the answers to the numbers we made up are also human inventions
  1188. [2:47:29] scarface755: they can be subject to change
  1189. [2:47:53] Transcendent God Champion: I can agree with this alternate way of looking at it:
  1190. [2:47:57] Luxuryball13: :/
  1191. [2:48:07] Transcendent God Champion: 1 + 1 = 3 would be an objective truth if...
  1192. [2:48:17] scarface755: sorry luxury lol
  1193. [2:48:19] Transcendent God Champion: ...LANGUAGE changes,
  1194. [2:48:23] Luxuryball13: It's alright
  1195. [2:48:31] Luxuryball13: I just want to test it
  1196. [2:48:33] scarface755: language has nothing to do with it
  1197. [2:48:36] Luxuryball13: Doesn't have to be ladder
  1198. [2:48:36] Transcendent God Champion: such that "3" now refers to what was once referred to as "2"?
  1199. [2:48:38] Transcendent God Champion: *.
  1200. [2:48:52] scarface755: thats what im saying
  1201. [2:49:03] scarface755: thats exactly what i was getting at
  1202. [2:49:08] scarface755: it can change
  1203. [2:49:21] Transcendent God Champion: OK, but by that point of view,
  1204. [2:49:26] Transcendent God Champion: absolute EVERYTHING is subjective.
  1205. [2:49:34] scarface755: no
  1206. [2:49:43] Transcendent God Champion: Name something that's objective then.
  1207. Ladder match: HisFavoriteTier vs. .: Victory Star :.!
  1208. [2:49:52] Transcendent God Champion: I can tell you how it can be otherwise.
  1209. [2:49:53] scarface755: the year i was born
  1210. [2:50:02] Transcendent God Champion: Which year is it?
  1211. [2:50:09] scarface755: 1994
  1212. [2:50:16] Transcendent God Champion: OK.
  1213. [2:50:17] Twisted Cosmos: shit son
  1214. [2:50:23] Transcendent God Champion: So let's say,
  1215. [2:50:26] Twisted Cosmos: I should be proud for beating scar several times then
  1216. [2:50:29] Transcendent God Champion: language changes,
  1217. [2:50:38] Transcendent God Champion: so what we now refer to as "4"
  1218. [2:50:41] scarface755: whys that?
  1219. [2:50:46] Transcendent God Champion: is now referred to as "9".
  1220. [2:50:49] scarface755: yes
  1221. [2:50:56] Twisted Cosmos: im '96
  1222. [2:51:01] Transcendent God Champion: So then it will be an objective truth that you were born in 1999.
  1223. [2:51:23] scarface755: if you could get everyone in the world to agree on that then yes you would be correct
  1224. [2:51:36] scarface755: but until that point it is objective
  1225. [2:51:57] Transcendent God Champion: Then I stick to what I said before:
  1226. [2:52:17] Transcendent God Champion: The definition of the words "objective" and "subjective" are different for you than for me.
  1227. [2:52:23] Transcendent God Champion: It's a semantic disagreement.
  1228. [2:52:35] Transcendent God Champion: We can't discuss anything more, it won't get anywhere.
  1229. [2:52:44] Transcendent God Champion: But, I enjoyed this debate anyway :)
  1230. [2:52:50] FoSho: this reminds me of the "is your red my red" debate
  1231. [2:52:59] scarface755: objective (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
  1232. [2:53:43] scarface755: subjective- based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. "his views are highly subjective"
  1233. [2:54:00] scarface755: my year of birth being in 1994 is objective
  1234. [2:54:14] Twisted Cosmos: lol I'm so glad we don't have those kinds of debates in pharmacy school
  1235. [2:54:32] scarface755: i would be scared if you did
  1236. [2:54:34] FoSho: scarface
  1237. [2:54:39] FoSho: let me give you a scenario
  1238. [2:54:42] scarface755: ok
  1239. [2:54:55] FoSho: suppose that me and you meet randomly
  1240. [2:54:59] scarface755: ok
  1241. [2:55:01] FoSho: and we see an apple
  1242. [2:55:04] scarface755: ok
  1243. [2:55:08] FoSho: we both agree the apple is red
  1244. [2:55:11] scarface755: ok
  1245. [2:55:19] FoSho: and we then turn and walk our seperate ways
  1246. [2:55:20] FoSho: however
  1247. [2:55:23] Transcendent God Champion: Tendetta, can you update your post to include the whole conversation so far?
  1248. [2:55:43] FoSho: how do you know that the red colour that you saw is the same as the red colour that i saw?
  1249. [2:55:59] Transcendent God Champion: Showering, be right back.
  1250. [2:56:01] FoSho: perhaps there is some abnormality in your brain where
  1251. [2:56:01] scarface755: it isnt
  1252. [2:56:10] Luxuryball13: At least I got to test it
  1253. [2:56:14] FoSho: your perception of colours is different
  1254. [2:56:20] scarface755: there is no evidence to support that or no way of testing that
  1255. [2:56:27] FoSho: yes there isnt
  1256. [2:56:43] FoSho: but the thing is even though if this is the case
  1257. [2:56:50] scarface755: we could be seeing 2 different colors
  1258. [2:56:54] xyxx: Transcendent God Champion, I refreshed the page, so i don't have the log anymore.
  1259. [2:56:55] FoSho: and one may be wrong and one might be right
  1260. [2:57:05] FoSho: or even both wrong
  1261. [2:57:19] scarface755: we just agree with the same label
  1262. [2:57:22] FoSho: objectively we are both right correct?
  1263. [2:57:26] FoSho: yeah exactly
  1264. [2:57:34] scarface755: no right answer
  1265. [2:57:37] scarface755: we dont know
  1266. [2:57:47] FoSho: what you have labeled red may actually be green in your eyes
  1267. [2:57:56] FoSho: but it doesnt make a difference at all in your life
  1268. [2:58:06] scarface755: no not really
  1269. [2:58:46] FoSho: because essentially you will always say the right colour in the end even if you percieve it differently
  1270. [2:58:55] FoSho: so does this fall under objectiveness?
  1271. [2:59:12] FoSho: because the facts that you have
  1272. [2:59:12] scarface755: the label we give colors is objective
  1273. [2:59:16] FoSho: are different to mine
  1274. [2:59:19] scarface755: the actual color isnt
  1275. [2:59:35] FoSho: but they are essentially correct for ourselve
  1276. [2:59:51] scarface755: fosho we both agree with each other
  1277. [3:00:34] FoSho: im just trying to understand what TG disagrees with
  1278. [3:00:59] scarface755: ill give you an example of something we didnt agree on
  1279. [3:01:47] scarface755: "vanilla is better than chocolate" is this subjective or objective
  1280. [3:01:55] Apacheman: subjective
  1281. [3:02:20] scarface755: i agree
  1282. [3:02:33] FoSho: subjective yes
  1283. [3:03:00] scarface755: now if we got everyone in the world to agree that vanilla is better than chocolate is it now objective or subjective
  1284. Ladder match: blissey vs. .: Victory Star :.!
  1285. [3:03:26] FoSho: depends
  1286. [3:03:42] FoSho: the problem with this example is how are they agreeing
  1287. [3:03:57] FoSho: are they agreeing based on tasting it or what
  1288. [3:04:38] FoSho: though i would still think its subjective because thats the case with chocolate. Almost the entire world loves chocolate
  1289. [3:04:41] FoSho: my mom doesnt
  1290. [3:04:57] scarface755: everyone has tasted both and sencerely agrees that vanilla is better than chocolate
  1291. [3:04:57] FoSho: we subjectively love chocolate because of our own particular taste
  1292. [3:05:49] scarface755: for arguments sake this is the conditions
  1293. [3:06:01] scarface755: everyone in the world has tried both
  1294. [3:06:11] scarface755: and sincerely agrees that vanilla is better
  1295. [3:06:17] scarface755: is it now objective or subjective
  1296. [3:06:42] FoSho: I think in this particular scenario
  1297. [3:06:54] FoSho: you can put it as both
  1298. [3:06:58] scarface755: how so
  1299. [3:07:01] FoSho: because
  1300. [3:07:52] FoSho: taste pathway coincidies with the limbic system
  1301. [3:07:58] scarface755: something cannot be both objective and subjective at the same time
  1302. [3:07:59] FoSho: the limbic system is your emotions
  1303. [3:08:01] scarface755: by definition
  1304. [3:08:08] FoSho: however
  1305. [3:08:29] FoSho: seeing as EVERYONE is agreeing to it you can also argue that its an objective fact
  1306. [3:08:48] FoSho: kinda like them saying chocolate is better than sewer water
  1307. [3:09:03] FoSho: i think that if a variation arrived
  1308. [3:09:11] FoSho: if 1 person was born in the world
  1309. [3:09:24] FoSho: who preferred chocolate over vanilla
  1310. [3:09:34] scarface755: then it would no longer be objective
  1311. [3:09:36] FoSho: then it would revert back to subjectiveness completely
  1312. [3:09:45] scarface755: thats my point
  1313. [3:10:01] scarface755: he didnt think that something subjective could become objective
  1314. [3:10:15] FoSho: I think its interchangeable in this specific example
  1315. [3:10:37] scarface755: its plausible although extremely unlikely
  1316. [3:10:45] FoSho: thing is though
  1317. [3:10:51] FoSho: tell me this
  1318. [3:11:14] FoSho: if you asked chocolate vs sewer water
  1319. [3:11:33] FoSho: would you say the taste be objective or subjective
  1320. [3:11:42] scarface755: i would say chocolate although i dont think their fair comparisons
  1321. [3:11:58] scarface755: i think most would agree chocolate is better
  1322. [3:12:05] scarface755: but i cant say that for certain
  1323. [3:12:11] FoSho: it would be subjective
  1324. [3:12:13] FoSho: because
  1325. [3:12:16] scarface755: yes i agree
  1326. [3:12:20] scarface755: it would be subjective
  1327. [3:12:26] FoSho: there are people in this world who are allergic to chocolate
  1328. [3:12:50] FoSho: objectiveness is hard facts
  1329. [3:13:13] FoSho: however, one thing you have to agree on
  1330. [3:13:22] FoSho: is that there are people in this world
  1331. [3:13:26] FoSho: who mix the two up
  1332. [3:13:31] scarface755: yes
  1333. [3:13:40] FoSho: their emotions cloud their judgement
  1334. [3:13:57] scarface755: objectivness doesnt have to deal with emotions
  1335. [3:14:12] FoSho: one interesting thing
  1336. [3:14:20] FoSho: in my psychiatry rotations
  1337. [3:14:28] FoSho: when ive taken history of patients
  1338. [3:14:39] FoSho: we devide it into objective and subjective
  1339. [3:14:49] FoSho: objective is what the patient is telling us
  1340. [3:15:16] FoSho: subjective is what we are observing eg if we look at the patients body language and think hes sad etc
  1341. [3:15:27] scarface755: i agree
  1342. [3:15:52] FoSho: thats one of the ways a psych history is taken
  1343. [3:16:05] Twisted Cosmos: my team was 995 points a few days ago
  1344. [3:16:12] Twisted Cosmos: now it's 970
  1345. [3:16:16] Twisted Cosmos: not bad
  1346. [3:16:21] FoSho: they changed the PBV twisted cosmos
  1347. [3:16:37] FoSho: try making a team with mega kangheskhan now :P
  1348. [3:16:37] scarface755: i have to work my way back up the latter
  1349. [3:16:48] scarface755: i was mid 1700s
  1350. [3:16:55] scarface755: for points
  1351. [3:16:56] Twisted Cosmos: WHAT
  1352. [3:17:00] Twisted Cosmos: THEY RESET THE LADDER
  1353. [3:17:04] Twisted Cosmos: just notices :'(
  1354. [3:17:04] scarface755: yes
  1355. [3:17:07] Twisted Cosmos: noticed*
  1356. [3:17:08] FoSho: unfortunately all the good players are online right now
  1357. [3:17:13] scarface755: lol
  1358. [3:17:17] FoSho: so my ratings are falling :P
  1359. [3:17:32] FoSho: only started playing pokemon competitively when this site started :P
  1360. Ladder match: PokeyMcGee vs. .: Victory Star :.!
  1361. [3:18:05] scarface755: apacheman and blissey are only 2 that give me alot of trouble
  1362. [3:18:30] FoSho: you mean medicham?
  1363. [3:18:42] scarface755: no
  1364. [3:18:49] scarface755: i meant actual players
  1365. [3:18:57] FoSho: oh right :P
  1366. [3:19:10] blissey: im 0-2 lol
  1367. [3:19:15] FoSho: all of them give me trouble unless they are relatively new :P
  1368. Ladder match: scarface755 vs. shinylugia!
  1369. Ladder match: PokeyMcGee vs. .: Victory Star :.!
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