Switching experiments

[:34] <anon_> so I had some switching/possession/OBE success today after I realized what some of us have been missing with regards to it
[:34] <Chupi> oh???
[:35] <Pronas> WHAT TEH FUCK IS IT
[:35] <anon_> well, remember how those that did possession or switching would look into their body from their imaginary perspective and either see themselves or the tulpa or both
[:35] <anon_> still not entirely confirmed, only did it 3 times
[:35] <endoalir> hey anon_3, do you have a progress log posted
[:35] <anon_> no
[:35] <Avalanche> Get one
[:36] <Avalanche> All the cool kids have one
[:36] <Chupi> endoalir: why "anon_3" btw?
[:36] <anon_> but I'm too lazy
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[:36] * GlaD0S sets mode: +v eatyourbeets_
[:36] <Avalanche> Don't you want to be cool?
[:36] <Avalanche> Don't you want to be popular-er?
[:36] <anon_> D;
[:36] <eatyourbeets_> i'm really sorry, but it happened again
[:36] <Sands|Roswell> Ha, we haven't exactly switched yet, Beets. Switching is a bit different from full body possession. I like to read and sing, they're things I can do when possessing too. Also eating real food, haha.
[:36] <anon_> anyhow
[:36] <endoalir> Chupi, borrowed from Japanese. san is an honorific title, and 3 has the same sound as it in Japanese
[:37] <anon_> oh
[:37] <Chupi> endoalir: oic
[:37] <eatyourbeets_> what happens to your master when you possess him?
[:37] <Pronas> >master
[:37] <Pronas> :I
[:37] <eatyourbeets_> i don't know what you call it
[:37] <eatyourbeets_> tulpamancer?
[:37] <Pronas> head buddy :I
[:37] <Chupi> Sands|Roswell: how's it that much different... seems it would basically be fully body possession and then stepping back into the wonderland
[:38] <anon_> for those using the meatpuppet idea, the tulpa syncs their form to the body's form and puppets that
[:38] * eatyourbeets ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[:38] <anon_> now I figured that most regular humans
[:38] <anon_> identify with their body's physical form
[:38] <anon_> and keep their focus on that all the time
[:38] <anon_> like when I'm imagining stuff
[:38] <anon_> I'm aware of both the wonderland form and the physical one
[:38] <Chupi> yes
[:38] <anon_> usually resulting in weird confusions in the wonderland
[:39] <anon_> and when you visualize yourself from above you typically see your real body form
[:39] <Sands|Roswell> It is difficult to find good tulpa terms. We don't really mind what you call us, haha. Sands is observing. The difference between switching and possession and what makes switching difficult for us is that Sands can't exactly concentrate on something else. Either he observes what I do or spaces out.
[:39] <Sands|Roswell> He is unable to go do his own things, which is what switching would require, yes?
[:39] <anon_> now if you remember some people who described looking at the body when the tulpa possesses or when switched
[:39] <anon_> they would either see
[:39] <Pleeb> Back for a second.  Bluesleeve, Amadeus (Juno_Nea?), I'd like you to give your input on something in the admin board please.
[:39] <anon_> tulpa instead of their body
[:40] <anon_> or tulpa and their body occupying same space (if stuck)
[:40] <Juno_Nea> Sure.
[:40] <Chupi> "if stuck"??
[:40] <anon_> like itsblah's stuff where he gets thrown back in his body
[:40] <anon_> if he tries to image stuff
[:40] <anon_> or glitch's issue as well
[:40] <Chupi> ah
[:41] <anon_> so I figured, what if switching is actually changing the body model that controls the physical body
[:41] <anon_> now the problem with that is
[:41] <Chupi> I seem to have a hard time staying even imagining the view from outside me
[:41] <anon_> that we tupically identify with that body model
[:41] <eatyourbeets_> this sounds so cool
[:41] <eatyourbeets_> i hope i can do this someday
[:42] <Chupi> but how to change it?
[:42] <anon_> so I tried to imagine another model, identical to my own and keep all my focus on it
[:42] <eatyourbeets_> did i get d/c again?
[:42] <anon_> now slightly o things which are inconsistent
[:42] <anon_> *do
[:42] <anon_> like move the hand outside of the model (after you can control the body with it)
[:42] <anon_> while keeping focus on it
[:42] <Chupi> what, like in the wonderland?
[:42] <Sands|Roswell> You are still with us, Beets.
[:42] <anon_> just in the room where I was
[:42] <anon_> I faileda bunch of times
[:42] <Chupi> I think you lost me
[:43] <anon_> hmm
[:43] <Chupi> "like move the hand outside of the model (after you can control the  body with it)
[:43] <Chupi> what exactly do you mean?
[:43] <anon_> Chupi, remember when I was interacting with my tulpa while I was imposing her and accidentally confused my real body with the imaginary one
[:43] <anon_> and slapped my forehead with the imaginary one and still felt it
[:43] <Chupi> what, you actually felt it?
[:43] <anon_> imagined-felt, but it was vivid
[:44] <Chupi> okay
[:44] <anon_> I figured I wouldn't be able to unfocus on my real body's senses because I wouldn't have anything to unfocus on
[:44] <Chupi> how does that really differ from just "imagine slapping your head"?
[:44] <anon_> like remember endoalir's tutorial where
[:44] * Juno_Nea ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Bye)
[:44] <anon_> his imagined senses are as real as the original ones
[:44] <Chupi> yeah
[:44] <anon_> the idea is to keep the focus on the imagined body all the time
[:44] <anon_> and identify with it
[:45] <anon_> first have it control the real body, then try to differentiate from it
[:45] <anon_> anyhow, tried this for a while, small steps and all
[:45] <Chupi> but how to do this?
[:45] <anon_> the focus on the real one wouldn't go away at first
[:45] <anon_> so I was making dupes I figured
[:45] <anon_> and tried to imagine the focus going away, a finger, then a hand, etc
[:46] <Sands|Roswell> Ha, we just seem to be getting odd visuals of seeing two things at the same time. So Sands isn't quite able to fully let go of this body's senses?
[:46] <anon_> eventually ended up in an OBE after a lot of tries, still not 100% sure if dream OBE or actual switching
[:46] <anon_> but I had my tulpa sit in my body and focus on my senses
[:46] <anon_> in the OBE, thinks felt about like a lucid dream, but a bit less "vivid"
[:46] <anon_> *things
[:47] <endoalir> sounds like a lot of win anon_3 :D
[:47] <anon_> but I wouldn't feel my real senses
[:47] <Chupi> hmmm
[:47] <anon_> I couldn't change my environment as easily as in a LD
[:47] <anon_> like I tried to fix some broken item in my environment
[:47] <anon_> and couldn't
[:47] <anon_> I tried to imagine it being fixed then blinked
[:47] <anon_> and it was
[:47] <anon_> so there are workarounds
[:47] <anon_> I could also conjure up my music player and it would play fine, just not as loud as
[:48] <anon_> in a LD, but louder than when I'm in a typical trance (see: sucky auditory imagination)
[:48] <anon_> another time after that
[:48] <anon_> (second try)
[:48] <anon_> I tried to summon my tulpa by using the same trick as with the item, but
[:48] * Nikodemos ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[:48] <anon_> I couldn't open my eyes, and my focus on my visual senses came back to my eyes
[:49] <anon_> (real ones)
[:49] <anon_> but auditory focus was still on my imagination (audio player)
[:49] <anon_> (couldn't open my imaginary eyes that is)
[:49] <Chupi> I may be being able to defocus/deidentify a hand... it's like I can still move and feel it but it feels somewhat tingly/numb, weird and slightly less "mine"
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[:49] <anon_> I first tried it with my hands
[:49] <anon_> about that though
[:49] <anon_> when I came back to my real senses (focusing on them on purpose this time)
[:50] <anon_> my hand was clenching/unclenching on its own, so I guess the tulpa was trying it out
[:50] <anon_> she was left in the body while I tried leaving after all
[:50] <Chupi> nice
[:50] <anon_> when I tried to move it
[:50] <anon_> the movement was irregular
[:50] <anon_> and eventually she couldn't move it anymore
[:50] <anon_> and that's about it, but
[:50] <Chupi> so takes time to reconnect
[:50] <anon_> I still don't know for sure if it's switching or something inbetween dream OBE and awake one
[:51] <anon_> need to reproduce this a few more times
[:51] <anon_> I was going to try endoalir's daydreaming thing today, but ended up doing this instead
[:51] <Pronas> why didnt you ask your tulpa
[:51] <Chupi> anyway, on how to actually accomplish this de-identifying
[:51] <anon_> Pronas, they claimed to have been messing around with my body with some mild success
[:51] <schlondark|school> yolk suggested staring at your hands until they don't feel like they belong to you
[:51] <Pronas> also, explain this shit better
[:51] <anon_> but it hasn't moved much
[:52] <Pronas> you said you focused on your imaginary body
[:52] <Pronas> and not your phsycial body?
[:52] <Pronas> is that it?
[:52] <Chupi> schlondark|school: I still don't see how staring at them will accomplish this
[:52] <anon_> Pronas, the idea is to change the body identity from physical one to imaginary one (like the tulpa has) and have the imaginary one unconsciously control the real one
[:52] <schlondark|school> didn't really work for me either
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[:52] <Pronas> sounds like its hard as dicks
[:52] <anon_> I failed a lot of times with it, tried for about 4 hours
[:52] <Chupi> yeah
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[:53] <endoalir> hey fur face
[:53] <Atasco> Hello endo :0
[:53] * Pronas ([email protected]) Quit (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Prunus)))
[:53] <Purlox> nice method anon_
[:53] <anon_> I couldn't do it the last time today though, so I still don't know for sure if it's switching or just something between dream OBE and awake OBE
[:53] <Chupi> the imaginary one being not at all imposed or anything like that, right?
[:54] <anon_> but will have to practice more and will see
[:54] * Prunus is now known as Pronas
[:54] <Purlox> You should write about it if you get more success later
[:54] <anon_> also want to see if itsblah can do it too
[:54] <anon_> he has had the unfocus problem all the time he tried
[:54] <anon_> and I figured that you have to have something to unfocus onto if it is to work
[:54] <Chupi> so I need to do anything special to make this imaginary form?
[:55] <schlondark|school> you could try dissociating yourself while watching a movie
[:55] <anon_> <Chupi> the imaginary one being not at all imposed or anything like that, right? <-- it's still fuzzy, I might want to have a session where I do some visualization/touch senses on my imaginary body like you do for a tulpa
[:55] <Chupi> do you mean like in wonderland or trying to impose?
[:55] <anon_> I did this as in the snapshot method
[:56] <anon_> but I suppose wonderland/void might work
[:56] <anon_> the problem with those is that
[:56] <Chupi> schlondark|school: it sounds like it involves a ton of focusing
[:56] <anon_> you end up making dupes
[:56] <anon_> instead of changing the focus
[:56] <Chupi> dupes?
[:56] <anon_> like you're aware of both real and imagined versions at the same time
[:56] <Chupi> ...
[:56] <Chupi> that is exactly what happens when I imagine my view from behind me
[:56] <anon_> and many times the real position of my body
[:57] <anon_> influences the imaginary one
[:57] <Chupi> and then it instantly collapses to just my body
[:57] <anon_> which is half the reason I'm so curious about getting this to work
[:57] <Chupi> you talking closed-eye visualizing snapshot?
[:58] <anon_> yea, that's what I did
[:58] <anon_> but I think open-eyed would work too, if you're doing what endoalir has been doing
[:58] <Chupi> sort of like take a snapshot and then imagine waking around it
[:58] <Chupi> I can't impose daydreams, I am not a wizard
[:59] <anon_> also I need to figure out how not to confuse closing/opening imaginary eyes with closing/opening real eyes, since it broke the OBE the second time around
[:59] <anon_> either that or I need to find another way to modify memory landscapes which are not created by me
[:00] <anon_> but unlike the LD, I didn't just woke up if I didn't do anything, I could just sit quietly and think and had a far clearer mind than in dreams
[:00] <Chupi> so, for the actuall OBE part... is there like an "exiting" thing you do like normal OBE?
[:00] <Chupi> or like poof and your focus is shifted to the imaginary you that happens to be across the room
[:00] <anon_> not sure, the actual transition part I can't remember in enough detail, "it just worked"
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[:00] <anon_> what I do remember though is that
[:01] <anon_> at one point I was finally seeing everything vividly enough
[:01] <anon_> while before that it was still imagined
[:01] <Chupi> this is all closed eye?
[:01] <anon_> like the player would finally worked
[:01] <anon_> yes, but I sometimes moved in my bed or opened the eyes a few times
[:01] <anon_> eventually it was closed eyes though
[:01] <Chupi> were you in any funny sort of state?
[:02] <anon_> not sure, it was probably a pretty deep trance, but the problem is that I cna't imagine music well enough in those
[:02] <anon_> but it didn't feel like regular hypnagogic states either
[:02] <anon_> will need more people to try this and I'll try this tommorow again, or later today
[:02] <anon_> I was in my bed relaxing though
[:02] <anon_> didn't try doing it upright
[:03] <Chupi> I'd love to try it, though I think I need more description on how to set up this imaginary form so it's something more than "imagine doing X"
[:03] <anon_> well, I tried to set up a link between the movements of the imaginary form and the real one
[:04] <Chupi> ...how?
[:04] <anon_> that said, I never worked much on my imaginary form before and always wondered how it looked to my tulpa
[:04] <anon_> Chupi: imagine the form, I tried a clone of my own bodies' form, then try to have it move the body, then not move the body
[:04] <anon_> to find what the difference is between them
[:05] <anon_> I also wonder if switching forms is possible later
[:05] <Chupi> is this part open or closed eye?
[:05] <anon_> don't think it matters
[:05] <anon_> try both
[:05] <Chupi> I've done a lot of sensory detail stuff in my wonderland, though didn't look that closely at my own form
[:05] <anon_> ... and I still want to try the blindfolding experiment, oh wel
[:05] <anon_> l
[:05] <Chupi> though I did create an alternate form there
[:05] <anon_> I did create an alt form too once
[:06] <anon_> it was more clear than my own
[:06] <Chupi> yeah
[:06] <Chupi> I basically forced it briefly
[:06] <Chupi> now when working on my own form, should I be "in" it?
[:06] <anon_> I was in it, but I wonder what results you'd have if you weren't
[:07] <anon_> I imagined it as being a perfect copy of my body
[:07] <anon_> but I think you can probably do either, so just experiment and let me know
[:07] <Chupi> now how do I even make this work in snapshot? when I do snapshot I just seem to have my physical body
[:07] <anon_> what I figured is that tulpa probably have easy time going in and out of the body because they identify with the imagined form
[:07] <Chupi> this is why I hate snapshot
[:07] <Chupi> I can't move around
[:07] <anon_> you're supposed to try moving the imagined form
[:08] <anon_> which starts as controlling the physical body
[:08] <Chupi> yeah -- then there's 2 of me in the room and in 2 seconds it collapses to my physical body
[:10] * Sands|Roswell is now known as Sands
[:11] <anon_> well, it'll probably take you a few tries, you'll know you have some success when you start confusing them or when you unfocus on one
[:11] <Chupi> so, I'm having trouble figuring how to do this "imaginary form moves the physical one" thing... I can imagine moving and then actually move, but this is the basic "planning" everyone does
[:11] <Chupi> what do you mean "unfocus on one"?
[:12] <Chupi> if I move the physical body, the imaginary one more or less poofs for a moment if that's what you mean
[:12] <Chupi> or it gets sucked back into the physical one's exact location perhaps
[:12] <anon_> maybe it's similar to that body suit training JDBar and glitch did, I'm not sure how to describe it. I also had imagined the physical body as having a "sucking-in" property as to drag the nearest thoughtform in. Maybe have Lyra focus on it while you do your stuff?
[:13] <anon_> the thing isn't unfocusing on it, but focusing on the other part so much that you end up unfocusing on the original one
[:13] <anon_> it reminded me of
[:13] <Chupi> well, I still feel very "present" in my physical body at all times, even if I'm imagining standing behind me
[:14] <anon_> itsblah's situation when his tulpa imposing him causes an OBE, but only for that duration
[:15] <anon_> Chupi, I still don't feel comfortable enough trying this while I'm fully awake and focused on my computer. I did this while fully relaxed in my bed. I suppose learning to do this at any time (like Clint can) would be the next step.
[:15] <Chupi> how does that work?
[:15] <Chupi> I mean having his tulpa impose him
[:15] <anon_> probably just them imagining him in the environment while they're doing full-body possession
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[:16] <Chupi> eh, there *HAS* to be something more to it than that
[:16] <Nikodemos> Just finished beating Metal Gear Solid
[:16] <Chupi> else I could just imagine myself across the room and boom, OBE
[:16] <Nikodemos> Ten hours of epicness
[:17] <anon_> I don't know Chupi, but the thing is that the tulpa was focusing on your body
[:17] * eatyourbeets_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[:17] <Chupi> tulpa focusing on physical or imaginary body?
[:17] <anon_> it's not like you're doing this without their help or without being in a trance state already
[:17] <anon_> physical
[:18] <anon_> I still wonder how do people do this stuff instantly
[:18] <anon_> took me too many hours of tries to do it
[:18] <Chupi> hmm
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[:18] <anon_> and I can't do it right now heh
[:18] <anon_> likely a matter of practice
[:19] <Chupi> so, would a goood start be laying still and imagining walking around the room? or am I thinking wrong?
[:19] <Chupi> (eyes closed I mean)
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[:20] <Chupi> and what do I do when I would see my physical body laying in the bed? see it there, or imagine it to not be there?
[:20] <anon_> I just saw it there, but I was no longer identifying with it at that point
[:21] <Chupi> hmm
[:21] <anon_> although it went away after I came back to it and had to do it all over again
[:21] <anon_> maybe if I tried a distinct form
[:21] <anon_> it would have been different
[:22] <Chupi> what do I do with physical senses though?
[:23] <anon_> Chupi, it's kind of like imposition, the idea is that the focus on your imaginary form's 1p becomes stronger than the real ones
[:23] <anon_> it's still tricky and I couldn't do it initially, it just "worked" after many tries, and I was probably in a deep trance by then
[:24] <Chupi> so, what should happen if I imagine walking up to and touching my physical form?
[:24] <anon_> but I didn't put myself into a trance state purposefully because I would have just timeskipped if I did that
[:25] <Chupi> or don't do it because it will break things?
[:25] <anon_> I only tried that while I was trying to "walk out" of it, and it was just confusing
[:25] <anon_> but eventually I stopped senses both
[:25] <anon_> *sensing
[:26] <Chupi> how does doing this result in stopping sensing the real senses when spending time in the wonderland does not?
[:26] <anon_> the main problem is that you end up with 2 forms when you just do your regular stuff in the wonderland
[:26] <Purlox> so what have you been talking about the past few minutes?
[:26] <anon_> and the 2 forms sometimes influence each other
[:26] <mouse_> Probably a matter of profivciency
[:26] <anon_> here I'm trying to keep it as only one form
[:27] <mouse_> You could probably get an obe in wonderland
[:27] <anon_> and dissociate myself from the other
[:27] <anon_> Clint claims to be able to insta-OBE in his wonderland
[:27] <anon_> I haven't tried doing it that way yet
[:27] <Chupi> how would I not just have 2 forms with this too -- one in my bed and one walking around?
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[:27] <anon_> your awareness of the other goes away slowly
[:28] <anon_> because you're focusing very hard on the other form, eventually it becoming your 1p
[:28] <Chupi> why doesn't this work in the wonderland then? I've spent long enough there
[:28] <anon_> for me I always have awareness of both while I'm in my wonderland
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[:29] <Chupi> me too
[:29] <anon_> while here I kept trying until I didn't notice my awareness of the real ones
[:29] <Asgardian> Heya
[:29] <anon_> hi
[:29] <Purlox> hi Asgardian
[:29] <Chupi> hmm... it's probably something to do with being in the same room as the physical form
[:31] <anon_> I'll be trying this some more and see if I can get it working consistently, it still takes a while here, and I only had 3 successes so far (today)
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[:31] <Chupi> okay
[:32] <anon_> but I hope more people that were interesting in switching try it and see what the results are.
[:33] <anon_> *interested
[:34] <Asgardian> Maybe a research thread would be good, if it doesn't exists already (as I'm not informed about the topic).
[:34] <Purlox> rather guide thread
[:34] <Purlox> but with warning that it isn't final yet