bni.txt

Names below posts are people who "liked" a post. And everything that seems to
be repeated are nested quotes in the original. I know it's a clusterfuck to
read, sorry, blame their forum... Paragraphs whose first word is indented are quotes!

deathzor Tsukaya
about 11 hours ago
Open message to leader ship ( o boy i'm gonna get so much shit for this one )
Dear, Brave leadership

The more i have been browsing reddit and the forums to more i notice:
The newest members of the alliance are running out of isk rather quickly.
I seen more and more high skill pilots switch back to frigs, most people have
some huge wallet pains.
Personally it feels like the only thing making money of this war is well the
corp wallet.
While SRP exists its not and more likely will not cover anything beyond T1
frigs, let alone at sendaya prices.
Given the price point for everything is higher and the SRP amounts have not
been changed,
every op any member go's on he or she loses some amount of isk ( regardless of
the SRP amounts ).

Now there a couple of assumptions i'm gonna make if these are false by all
means correct me:
1. We are getting paid by a party intrested in catch to burn it.
2. we are making a profit by doing so.
3. leadership isn't spending the profit on 'exotic dancers'.

Now given the reason this deal exists is because of us the members the people
that are hurting the most because of it.
Given we are effectively merc's i guess i could ask this very simply where is
my or anybody else his or her share.
Given SRP is currently not covering ships ( even for strat ops ) its not
covering ship costs by any margin.
( an no the market will not get cheaper the JF costs will keep existing )
it feels to me like we are donating combat time and ships to bigger goals, that
i personally have no reason to care about.
Now i personally really don't mind defending a friendly pos or saving a fleet,
without SRP but at this point SRP is meaningless
it feels more and more like for me i'm donating combat time to a merc corp that
isn't paying its members or refunding ships.
Its start to feel more and more like i'm fighting for somebody that is clearly
not me to make isk.
Personally i'm in the lucky position where i can use 50 mil a day without any
worry, but i rather not have all combat based around filling somebody else his
or her bank account.
Nicolai Serkanner ARMOREDSTARFISH Tedward Lennelluc Thyrfa Miromme Reran Hibra
Allister McGruffin

Toros Culzean
about 11 hours ago
oh, boy.
brianicus mcfail Benjaminion

Nicolai Serkanner
about 11 hours ago
Since the early days I have been a supporter of a more open financial report
from leadership. I have given up hope it will ever happen.

It is better to not expect SRP at all in my opinion. Make your own money in
your own preferred way and join a stratup when you can. I will never have to
depend on the wellfare of the corp.alliance wallet and I will keep it that way.
The best way to make money at the moment is in Barleguet and surroundings
hunting clone soldier tags. I average 2 to 3 an hour at the moment.

If the corp/alliance wants me/us to fly battlecruiser+ level of ships they can
hand me one and I'll gladly join. I am not in favour of the current
deployment's goals and abandoning all we have worked for the last 6 to 7 months
in Placid So I will not waste my "hard-earned" isk losing ships in this
deployment.

Leadership told us not so long ago we would not head for sov untill CCP changes
the sov mechanics. Yet here we are doing exactly that. It is becoming harder
and harder for real newbies to join us and participate in our ops. Damn, it is
also harder for older newbies to keep up when doctrines switch from race to
race and from shield to armour in the blink of an eye.

And that whole "status-Quo" excuse as a the framework for this deployment; I
don't buy it one second. We had just beaten Usurper and could have setup a
larger presence in NPC Null to train more and more people to live (and die) in
Null. It was an excellent opportunity to spread our influence in both low and
null sec. Newbies could join us, learn the ropes in low sec and after
"graduation" move into Null … and all without grinding sov.

But alas … things are as they are and neither me or any other line member is
going to change the current situation. We just have to make the best of it.
Reran Hibra

deathzor Tsukaya
about 11 hours ago
Sorry but i rather kick up the shit and bring it to leaderships attention then
to ignore it and silently move away.
Given when i join a big op i'm fighting for alliance or coalition goals i do
expected to not lose money on them ( if this is in disagreement with Brave's
idea of alliance operations ) guess what don't expect me on a other operation
for alliance goals orbiting a bunch of cruisers while they bash or orbitting a
POS and repairing it isn't exactly my idea of fun but i do it because its
important to the alliance i don't expect to pay for a privilege, same go for
gate camps etc most of this is really dull stuff i'm willing to do it but don't
make me pay for it currently i'm doing the dull stuff for SRP and paying for it
that's where i personally draw the line.

Sure going on some crazy roam is done for fun and i don't care about SRP, but
not all ops are done for fun its the non-fun ops that need to be done that i
expect not to lose money on

Julian Stencsk
about 10 hours ago
The loss of money is certainly a big issue on players who don't have alts or
just simply don't know how to make money. I've lost a lot of Cruisers in the
past week but mostly during fun ops of fighting enemy fleets in Sendaya, but if
I were to lose something like my Megathron and no SRP was offered etc. Then I
would be quite peeved at the situation.

While this is not something of a massive concern for me at this time, I would
like to know how newbies are suspected to stay stable with this model.
Reran Hibra

deathzor Tsukaya
about 10 hours ago
Julian Stencsk i do the same thing you do make money on a alt ( hence why i
don't have heavy money troubles but i do notice my pool of money is shrinking
somewhat ) i generally can withdraw about 50 mill a day from this alt without
damaging its ability to generate income.

Arik Alabel
about 10 hours ago
Now there a couple of assumptions i'm gonna make if these are false by all
means correct me:
1. We are getting paid by a party intrested in catch to burn it.
2. we are making a profit by doing so.

The alliance isn't making a "profit". If we were paid anything, the majority of
it is going back out for SRP.




where is my or anybody else his or her share.
Kind of entitled, don't you think? If you'd prefer no SRP, you're free to join
the million of other corps out there.





( an no the market will not get cheaper the JF costs will keep existing )
I disagree. How much was a maulus or griffin last week? How much are they
today? Cheaper





If the corp/alliance wants me/us to fly battlecruiser+ level of ships they can
hand me one and I'll gladly join. I am not in favour of the current
deployment's goals and abandoning all we have worked for the last 6 to 7 months
in Placid So I will not waste my "hard-earned" isk losing ships in this
deployment.
Again, this feels entitled. We've been flying battlecruiser+ ships since raha,
if you recall. Regarding the "abandonment" issues you have, what's the point of
staying in the same place forever? The same things would be happening (same
srp, same doctrines shifts, etc) but with no end except for more of the same
old crows flying around barleguet and people not having anything to do.




Given when i join a big op i'm fighting for alliance or coalition goals i do
expected to not lose money on them
This is how it works, and always worked within brave. Do you know how that
changes, and we can just pass around isk like a joint at a DMB concert? Sov
(imo).





Damn, it is also harder for older newbies to keep up when doctrines switch from
race to race and from shield to armour in the blink of an eye.
As far as I can remember, we've had several main line doctrines. Minmatar for
talwars (and scythes). Gallente for thoraxes, exeqs and megathrons, and amarr
for ani. The talwar is MAYBE a 3-4 day train from 0 skills. Thoraxes have been
our main line doctrine forever, and megathrons play directly on those skills.
ANI doctrine is something amarr people have been begging for forever.



And if you're an "old newbie" and don't have decent shield/armor skills, I'm
confused. Since armor brawlers was our kinda doctrine even after moving to
barleguet, and thoraxes have been around forever.





The loss of money is certainly a big issue on players who don't have alts or
just simply don't know how to make money.
But there are so many ways for people to make isk. Every single week there's a
new thread with someone asking how to make isk, and every week we run through
the options. The eve universe is a newbie's oyster, they simply have to grind
for isk, like everyone else.

Honestly, what this feels like to me - as someone who invests my isk grinding
time in helping run fleets, plan ops, and run a department, as people who don't
want to spend time making isk. Its really frustrating that rather than simply
going out and doing it for yourself, and flying what you can.
Le Petite More Diece Opherus Toros Culzean Nick Moretti Arkonios Evotori Hauler
McSwag Nxtg3n Reran Hibra

Altrue
about 9 hours ago
I was telling myself the same constatation a few days ago, comparing SRP +
insurance and actual ship prices. With the money we received to burn catch, I
suppose SRP values could be increased. In my opinion this not impossible. That
being said, it is also important to consider some rational arguments:

1- SRP is here to ease the pain and effectively decrease your farming time to
increase your pvp time. It has never been made to have members making profit on
it, or to fully reimburse your ship once you take the insurance into account.
This does not mean that you'll never see a SRP that, with an insured ship,
covers 100% of your losses, but it means that loosing a bit of money despite
having SRP is not something unexpected.

2- As far as I know (and I know very little), leadership is careful about not
overspending said money. In my opinion, it is better to have your memberbase be
short on money but being able to continue SRP through the whole campain, than
having to cease all SRP at some point and see a dramatic (and fatal) decrease
in fleet participation (although in my opinion again most members don't care
that much about SRP, and they are definitely not assisted people). Also keep in
mind that part of the money we received is kept as an emergency
anti-fail-cascade fund, and I bet some other is held in case its time to leave
Sendaya but we decide not to go back in Barleguet.

3- Every finance guy is making a lot of work to ensure that the money goes
where it needs to go. It may not be perfect and maybe SRP values were not
updated recently, but you have to keep in mind that in Eve, finance is one of
the domains where you need a constant amount of manual work to keep everything
running, no matter how well organized you are. And since we are 8 000 people in
Brave, this is probably a very tiring task. So before talking about a the
financial report, SRP rates, and (I'm sure someone will bring this up) SRP
payout delay, please keep in mind this point.

4- Money is certainly not going into leadership pockets. If you want to make
money by being in a leadership position, BRAVE is not the place to go. Thus, do
not expect leadership to be ran by personal greed, it is quite the opposite
actually. And if some of them were, technically they should have already left.

5- I do agree however that, on a personal level, my corp and me joined Brave
for the fights and the fun, not some sov grind and unclear goals. Some of us in
Brave followed the alliance because we are loyal to it and because we know that
grind does not prevent fights, even if we don't like sov fights, but it seems
legitimate to make sure that at least for the time we dedicate to it, we do not
loose money in the process, especially since we are fighting offensively, and
not defensively (aka a situation where you only attack if you know you can
sustain said attack).

You can be assured that this last point will be discussed by leadership in a
very near future. There are plans to improve communication, increase divisions
efficiency, and know where we are headed. These things are not "going to
happen" in an undefined future, there are people working on it right now as we
speak, so hopefully most of your points should be adressed sooner rather than
later.
Reran Hibra

Boson Clownstep
about 9 hours ago
If newbro's are having issues generating income, they should look at low sp
options such as exploration. There are many entities in this game that have no
SRP at all. We are lucky to have what we have.

If you can't afford to fly battlecruisers, then don't buy them. You can't
properly fly cruisers on up anyways until you finish your fitting skills,
around 8-10m sp.

We outgrew syndicate.

We get content here every day, all day.

There is a lot of overhead in an organization like ours. A LOT. I do not think
that leadership is embezzling isk to all buy monocles.

The bottom line is that nobody causes your ships to get blown up except for you.

That being said, the undock situation is kinda ridiculous, but that is because
we live in lowsec. If we lived in null, even npc null, nobody could do what
they get away with here because they would get their shit pushed in by out
bombers.

If you are struggling to make isk, there are a lot of ways to make money that
are not very SP intensive. Exploration is perfect for newbros because it
teaches them very quickly the skills they need to survive in null. PI is
awesome because you can train into it quickly.

Mobile Syphen Units on reactors is another way to generate passive income.

Make an alt and scam in jita if you are that desperate.

Be self sufficient. Do some research, Stop sucking of the teat of the alliance.

"we could have setup a larger presence in NPC Null to train more and more
people to live (and die) in Null".

Living in null is no different then living in lowsec, except in lowsec you
can't prevent people from camping your undock all day long like you can in null.

Exploration will teach you how to travel around null safely, while generating a
steady and respectable income that you can watch grow in your wallet.

The bottom line is that this is an internet spaceships video game that we all
play for fun. Why should someone else be obligated to insure that you have a
constant supply of ships to whelp?

Arik Alabel Barabas Steerpike Reran Hibra

Eigenvalue
about 9 hours ago
If we are getting paid by anyone I can't imagine any entity can afford our SRP
expenses and pay a profit on top of that. The premise that brave is somehow
profiting at newbie expense is through and through simply absurd.

We are not a rich alliance and frankly we will probably never be rich. We play
to have content and fun. So yes you're going to lose ships and it'll cost you
to play in the content. That's life my friend.

The isk positive outcome for newbies is we secure a section of sov space that
is ours. Sov is where the isk is outside of wormholes. You can set up ratting
chains that yield you tons of isk per hour and run anoms that drop officer loot
and turn you instantly space rich. You can mine ABC 24 hours a day. The
alliance can mine massive amounts of space rich moons. Your PI will spew isk
out of your bum. Exploration will be juicy and fat.

However there's a bootstrap problem. How do you wrest those riches from the
people who have the riches? If you don't already have riches elsewhere you have
to spend in the red to do it.

That's life.

And the SRP whining does sound like a bad entitlement issue. SRP is to defray
the cost of participating not fully offset it.

Finally if you don't want to make isk using your play time, just use a few
dollars here and there and buy the isk you need. There's no shame is selling
plex to fund your game time, it's a totally rational course of action to
optimize your playtime to your pleasure. If you make more than $1/hour it's
probably worth it to just fund your pvp with your income. If you enjoy the pve
then go for it and spend your time that way. If you're grinding pve spending 10
hours of pain for 1 hour of fun, stop it. Spend 1 hour at work earning real
money and have 10 hours of fun.
Arik Alabel Reran Hibra

deathzor Tsukaya
about 9 hours ago
Kind of entitled, don't you think? If you'd prefer no SRP, you're free to join
the million of other corps out there.

Give there are 2 options Brave is making money or Brave is not making money

Option 1 ( brave is making money):
Means i'm losing isk for the alliance its ability to make money meaning brave
gets money of my activity.
Meaning my small part in making this isk should be rewarded.

Option 2 ( brave is losing money):
This means brave made a deal that results in us losing money, to help out a
party that is not US.
Let me put this in other terms we are working for an other alliance for and
paying for the privilege.
this would make leadership incompetent, or have twisted priorities ( meaning
the first goal of the leadership isn't brave.)

So pick for me is leadership just stupid (and/or not working in brave
intrested) or is brave profiting of the backs of line members ?
yes you snark post gets the same level or reply.


I disagree. How much was a maulus or griffin last week? How much are they
today? Cheaper
there is a minimal cost that ship have to cost to move them in and its always
above barl price that was the point here
no i didn't spreadsheet the numbers exactly to see if some item dropped in
price.

This is how it works, and always worked within brave. Do you know how that
changes, and we can just pass around isk like a joint at a DMB concert? Sov
(imo).

Well i won't fly strat ops anymore then ( at all any important timers comming
up sorry not there ).
While i as one pilot do not matter at all to the success to such an op, i hope
more people will follow this example until
Leadership is:
A willing to refund ships for ops that keep the refund system up or
B stops running strat ops.
So next time you wonder why people are not helping when some important timer
come out well look back here.

Nicolai Serkanner

Thyrfa Miromme
about 9 hours ago
I disagree with your Option 2, Brave losing money despite being paid doesn't
mean the leadership is incompetent. We lose a ton of ships, wherever we are,
and that is what makes Brave fun. I don't see it as losing isk to do somebody
elses work, I see it as subsidized content.

Arik Alabel
about 9 hours ago
@ OP

Then I'm sorry but you're either completely misguided, or misinformed, but most
certainly entitled. As stated above, there are ZERO people in leadership making
MORE isk than if they weren't in leadership. They are donating their time and
energies to make this thing work, as best they can.

So you have done no research, but you just base your expectations off of
feeling? Prices in a fully seeded and mature market like barleguet?



Well i won't fly strat ops anymore then…until
A willing to refund ships for ops that keep the refund system up or
B stops running strat ops.
So next time you wonder why people are not helping when some important timer
come out well look back here.


That's what SRP is, mate. Isk back for anything lost in fights. Again, you'd
prefer the alternative? If 150% srp or some shit is what you want, go fly with
CFC. That sort of reimbursement isn't possible, regardless of what system we're
in. If you aren't willing to fly and shoot stuff with us unless your ransom of
complete reimbursement is paid , then perhaps this isn't the place for you.
Arkonios Evotori Barabas Steerpike Hauler McSwag Nxtg3n Benjaminion Reran Hibra

Boson Clownstep
about 9 hours ago
You are coming off sounding very narcissistic, which i am sure is not your
intent. Are you really demanding money from the alliance before you help out
your fellow alliance members? How do you think that makes you look in the eyes
of the vast majority of your fellow alliance members who are self sufficient
and whose participation in alliance activities is not dependent on receiving
handouts?

The way you talk makes it sound like EVE is a job. It isn't - its an internet
spaceship video game.

Ryvarant
about 9 hours ago
Ive been on quite a few strat ops now that havnt had SRP or ive been unable to
stay the whole fleet and unable to find the SRP for that fleet as it gets
sorted last minute before the FC goes offline, so i wont be going on anymore
strat ops unless SRP is sorted before the fleet even sets off which is how it
should be as currently SRP isnt very organised.
Nicolai Serkanner

Arik Alabel
about 9 hours ago
IM NOT DROPPING MY CAPITAL SHIPS UNLESS LYCHTON PERSONALLY DELIVERS A HAND
JOBBER TO ME. AND THEN IM NOT GOING TO UNDOCK UNLESS NANCY CONTRACTS ME SHIPS
FULLY FITTED.

seriously though, i agree ry that SRP code should be sorted in the MOTD before
the fleet embarks. Hopefully we'll get better at that. But I would suggest as I
did above, that the whole "ransom" thing really doesn't play well. If it's a
strat op, and the fleet is still forming, politely ask for the SRP code to be
put into the MOTD.

Dunk Dinkle
about 9 hours ago
http://i.imgur.com/w31PWL9.gif
Arik Alabel Diece Opherus Boson Clownstep Toros Culzean Motre Arkonios Evotori
Drewson Houten Anja Kovac Barabas Steerpike Nescient Reran Hibra Thrina

Ryvarant
about 9 hours ago
Im not demanding for full srp thats just silly with braves finances, the 50% we
currently have for strat ops is a good amount.

Allister McGruffin
about 8 hours ago

    What is inflicted upon all by few always takes place as the overpowering of
the individual by many: the oppression of society always carries the traits of
an oppression by a collective.


The above quote summarises what this thread demonstrates, and what can be seen
time and time again in alliance chat: To the individual pilot, all decisions
appear as decisions of the alliance as such, even if the actual decision for
the alliance has been made by a select few. However, you cannot argue with the
"universal consent" that is the alliance, whereas you would be able to argue
with any single person or defined group.

This thread does not and will never work, not because it is a bad idea or made
in bad faith, but because BNI's whole structure actively works against this
line on enquiry.

Conveniently, whoever dares to ask questions about motiviations, motives and
intentions behind the deployment and the "being paid to do somebody's dirty
work" will be confronted with the same mantras, repeated (dare I say shouted?)
by different people and from different angles, all piling onto the seemingly
singular dissenting voice. We are here because we get paid, and we get paid as
long as we are here. We are here because we have content, and we will have
content as long as we are here.

All I have heard so far about this deployment are answers that follow a
circular logic, or answers that end up in tautology. What I have not heard,
however, is a justification of the power structures behind this decision.
Content seems to follow no matter where BNI goes, yet the alliance (as a
seeming unified entity) has decided to deploy to Sendaya, a system and station
that is an absolutely terrible staging system by any measure. BNI moved
nonetheless, despite the obvious shortcomings, and the deployment has since
been regarded as a sine qua non, because without the deployment, there would be
no money or content.

This, however, is a sleight of hand. What is covered up are the processes and
decisions that lead to the decision to deploy to Sendaya. However, we are not
told who is paying BNI (even though it's not that hard to guess), and we are
not told whether there were alternatives. The decision to deploy to Sendaya
seems to have materialised out of thin air, without anybody in particular being
involved, and without anybody in particular being responsible. That way, any
past decision seems "natural" and as if it stemmed from a universal consesus,
as if things had always been that way.

SRP or not, 25%, 50%, 100% ,150%, that's a question that doesn't matter. In
fact, that question is a red herring. The only question that matters is: Why
are we here? Which structures and which power constellations lead to the
decisions as they present themselves to us afterwards? And, who is paying us,
and what do they get out of it?

It's these questions that need to be answered, though I know they won't.
Instead, the status quo serves to justify itself, and the initial act is
covered up, naturalised, it magically vanished, and what we are left with is a
deployment that could never be anything but itself.
Nicolai Serkanner Crazy HybridChick Reran Hibra

Arik Alabel
about 8 hours ago
Ry - i know, i'm asking that you either ask for srp code at the beginning of
the fleet, or after its started to roll and things are quiet.

I'll try and get that communicated to other FC's as well :)

Arik Alabel
about 8 hours ago
SRP or not, 25%, 50%, 100% ,150%, that's a question that doesn't matter. In
fact, that question is a red herring. The only question that matters is: Why
are we here? Which structures and which power constellations lead to the
decisions as they present themselves to us afterwards? And, who is paying us,
and what do they get out of it?

I don't know or can't say some of the answers to your questions. But what I can
say for sure is, we are here to burn catch, we started to get some real trouble
finding fights of any sort in barleguet, and we needed room to grow and a new
challenge. This move allows all of the above.
Reran Hibra

Baton Rouge
about 8 hours ago
http://i.imgur.com/RswDAMY.jpg
Boson Clownstep Toros Culzean Arik Alabel Reran Hibra Thrina

Toros Culzean
about 8 hours ago


    Well i won't fly strat ops anymore then ( at all any important timers
comming up sorry not there ).
    While i as one pilot do not matter at all to the success to such an op, i
hope more people will follow this example until
    Leadership is:
    A willing to refund ships for ops that keep the refund system up or
    B stops running strat ops.
    So next time you wonder why people are not helping when some important
timer come out well look back here.


http://i.imgur.com/j9LJOHv.gif
Diece Opherus Arkonios Evotori Reran Hibra

deathzor Tsukaya
about 8 hours ago
@Boson Clownstep given i'm a station traded i lose money when i spent it on PVP
its not about self-sufficient i demand not to lose money over helping out
alliance members that seems rather reasonable to me, this isn't about the odd
save some friendly's fleet either this is about me spending large amounts of
time defending or targeting a objective, meaning you spent time you could have
been roaming helping out on a tactical goal and if it go's wrong losing money
for the privilege of staring at a gate.

@Arik Alabel SRP isn't remotely covering the cost of ships when you buy them in
sendaya ( specially for cruiser sized objects ).

@Thyrfa Miromme it means we are working for a other alliance for free it means
we are pushing a goal for somebody else to profit hence we are being played by
a other party or to put in better terms somebody is making huge profits of this
and if its not use that its the party we made the deal with so we are
effectively donating to them.

as for the SRP i expect to be able to refit my ship after insurance with the
money i get out of srp currently it generally will pay for the hull only if i
move them out of jita.
Sorry but we are either being played by a big party ( aka doing work for them
for free or below cost ) or we are being played by leadership ( they are making
money of the rest of us by us doing work ) now i would like to believe
stupidity here and believe we are being played by a big power block into
working for them below cost but i'm skeptical.


Arik Alabel
about 8 hours ago
http://i0.wp.com/kpeeps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/alwaysunny-job.gif

Lorilath
about 8 hours ago
I am on the Council as an elected member, we came to Sendaya for the exact
reasons we have stated, burning catch is our pure goal. We could have done this
in syndicate or venal or placid or geminate but instead we were paid to be
here, this payment covers strat op SRP, it cover's the cost of sbu's and tcus
and ihubs, it allows us as a an alliance and a coalition to learn how to
operate in sov null.

I am also one of the alliance capital pilots, I've lost 2 dreads since I joined
in december, that has hurt my wallet as much as the guy losing cruisers
everyday, we don't SRP these at an alliance level if any SRP happens it is down
to the kindness of several people within the alliance and/or the coalition, but
you know what I'd lose 100 more Dreads if it means we as an alliance have fun.

SRP is not designed to cover your full ship loss it there to release a burden
on you, I highly suggest finding ways to make isk on your account in other
ways, PI is often suggested, but you can even pause training on your "main" and
go skill a mission running alt on the same account. EVE is not about being
handed anything on a plate, it is the ultimate sandbox. It is what you make of
it. We are not being played by any power block as I said above we could and
would do this anywhere, the isk we are getting is just prompting our location.
Arik Alabel Anja Kovac Reran Hibra

Arik Alabel
about 8 hours ago
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcStzxzuxpgTkiLQm2DSFciOyFD3
zu0dUwubYwfgX1QGBS4z3I-i

Allister McGruffin
about 8 hours ago

    I am on the Council as an elected member, we came to Sendaya for the exact
reasons we have stated, burning catch is our pure goal. We could have done this
in syndicate or venal or placid or geminate but instead we were paid to be
here, this payment covers strat op SRP, it cover's the cost of sbu's and tcus
and ihubs, it allows us as a an alliance and a coalition to learn how to
operate in sov null.

This is a contradiction. If "burning Catch" were indeed a pure goal, why does
it matter that somebody pays for it? Somebody paying for it obviously
influenced the decision. Which leads back to my above question: Who is paying
for this, and what do they gain from it?

Dreamer Targaryen
about 8 hours ago
Let's think of us being in Barleguet a couple of weeks ago. We had defeated an
somewhat easy to beat target (Usurper) and were left with nothing much to
do/fight. The nearby lowsec-entities were either non-existant or afraid of
fighting our numbers. Nullsec only offered some asymmetrical targets in the
form of ev0ke, a group not big enough to fight us in an open battle, but
skilled (skillpoints-wise ;p) and whealthy (look up their history of selling
their sov-systems) enough to fight us on a regular basis without us getting
much from it.
Given the fact that one need to offer their members something to do in order to
keep them interested in the game and the alliance (especially the "older"
characters), there had to be a new sort of content. Remember all the complains
about not doing stuff and people sperging(?) in comms? That was due to not
having an idea or direction. The alliance needed a goal to work towards, new
situations that point you in directions to skill for (why train dictors in
lowsec?).
So I don't know who (if true), why and whatfor, but somehow the opportunity
with catch presented itself. If you see how many leadership-figures left -A-,
it's almost too good to pass out on the opportunity to profit from their
downfall. New groups of people would arise to fight us (24/7 :O) and the
glimpse of owning some system for our own might motivate some people even more
to play and enjoy eve.
In other words: the alliance need(s/ed) this deployment in order to provide
meaningful content. I highly doupt that we make a financial profit out of
"being hired" by someone. Looking at the numbers, our coalition lost 300b the
last 10days in the Sendaya-area including Catch - lot's of them in strat-ops.
How much isk did we receive - if any at all? I don't know, but I highly doubt
that it's enough to finance even more than 50% srp as suggested in this thread.
BUT: Even though the alliance needs this deployment, it's a somewhat sub-par
experience for some of us - especially isk-wise. If you do not have an alt
getting isk for you, Sendaya is pretty much shattering. The system is camped
more than Barleguet ever was, the pipe to highsec is more camped than in
Barleguet, the nullsec-gate in Doril is pretty much camped 24/7 with more
bubles than my hands have fingers, if you try to rat somewhere you are pretty
much garanteed of getting shoot by BL withing 5-10min. The fleets we fight in
Sendaya itself are most of the time more than we can handle (props to the
BL-guys for sometimes shipping down to give a good fight) and end up with
rather short-lasting experiences of being killed within 5min after joining a
fleet. The operations into catch are always suicide commandos (I have yet to
survive one) and fighting for sov while stating all the time, that we "don't
want those systems anyway" seems rather confusing to me and defeats somewhat
the purpose of deploying - what does "burning catch" mean anyway?
Reran Hibra

Lorilath
about 8 hours ago

        I am on the Council as an elected member, we came to Sendaya for the
exact reasons we have stated, burning catch is our pure goal. We could have
done this in syndicate or venal or placid or geminate but instead we were paid
to be here, this payment covers strat op SRP, it cover's the cost of sbu's and
tcus and ihubs, it allows us as a an alliance and a coalition to learn how to
operate in sov null.

    This is a contradiction. If "burning Catch" were indeed a pure goal, why
does it matter that somebody pays for it? Somebody paying for it obviously
influenced the decision. Which leads back to my above question: Who is paying
for this, and what do they gain from it?


Where is the contradiction? We already affect any area we base out of and
technically whatever we do burns the area. Our payment literally only affected
where we are, that was my point.

Dunk Dinkle
about 8 hours ago
Shush...

Pax Civitas
about 8 hours ago
The best reasoning for SRP that I've heard is this:

    "SRP is not there to refund your losses. SRP is there to encourage you to
fly doctrine fits, and make our fleets more effective."


When you start thinking about it like that, and stop thinking about it as an
"entitlement", life becomes much simpler. You still have to write off the cost
of anything you fly as soon as you undock - it's just that if it's a doctrine
ship in an SRP fleet, you can fly more of them (and have more content) before
you have to go make ISK.
Hail Sagan Professor Randy Marsh Arik Alabel Reran Hibra

Allister McGruffin
about 8 hours ago

    Where is the contradiction? We already affect any area we base out of and
technically whatever we do burns the area. Our payment literally only affected
where we are, that was my point.

Does that mean the only deciding factor when Sendaya was chosen was that BNI
would get paid for it?

Motre
about 8 hours ago
Not going to hash out the other arguments kicking around in here, but I want to
answer a question. Why are we here? Yes we are being paid for this, and it's a
good amount of content(seriously, there's enough enemies here that we can fight
on a close to fair field that it's enjoyable) and it's also to try out Sov, not
seriously that's another reason.

Let's look at the first one together. Content. What made the statement from
before, "We're growing too fast for Syndi and Placid to maintain content for
us." true? The last major engagement we had in Syndi was with an Evoke Tengu
gang in our Mega fleet, which at the time was about half Megas, half other
Armor BSs, and before we fully SRPed them. We kicked their ass. HARD. And it
was over a r64 moon they previously held. They made a massive push to take that
moon back with all their effort and we kicked their teeth in badly. Evoke is
larger than any other group in Syndi that was operating there at the time. What
does that mean then? There was no one there left that we could not out ship and
out gun. Very quickly we would have no one left to fight that could actually
engage us. Our content would dry up and we'd be looking to deploy or leave the
area. We decided to not wait for BRAVE to stop having content and start only
ever sitting in station doing nothing because everyone runs from us. We got an
offer that would allow us to do go to a content rich area, so we did.

Second part of that. We wanted to try Sov. What do I mean? Sov has been a topic
that comes up from time to time within BRAVE. And it was gets argued out to a
stalemate. People on both side, BRAVE should take Sov(provide means for members
to make money to have FUN with) and BRAVE shouldn't take Sov(it's boring and
unFun!). The largest voice, both in BRAVE and from the outside has been to not
do it as Sov is unFun. But recently(last few monthes) there was another
opinion, another voice that started getting more people behind it. Why should
we assume it's unFun? We've never been there. People told us POS Bashes were
boring and yet people come out of the woodwork to do it and are enjoying the
time spend with their Alliance mates and having Fun on POS bashes. So should we
take people's word for it? Or take a dip into this gaint pool and find out if
it could be Fun for us?

We decided to try it out for a bit. To see if we could have Fun with this
supposed boring aspect of EVE. And maybe we won't, but maybe we will. And if
we're here to have Fun we should explore all routes that could lead to having
Fun in EVE. Worst comes to worst we are back were we started with more money in
our pockets to rebuild in a new location and continue our journey in EVE.
Reran Hibra

deathzor Tsukaya
about 8 hours ago
So let me make sure i get this, we are currently burning catch at a lost of isk
for a unknown party, so they can use it to take sov systems and/or fuck over
one of there enemies and we end up with nothing in the end ( outside of a huge
bill ), o and we gave up a majority of are poses and poco's in placid to do so
that sounds like somebody made the most amazing deal in the world.

does anybody wonder why i would call leadership incompetent if this is the deal
we have turned in to mercs how pay for the privilege of fighting somebody else
his war.

Allister McGruffin
about 8 hours ago

    Not going to hash out the other arguments kicking around in here, but I
want to answer a question. Why are we here? Yes we are being paid for this, and
it's a good amount of content(seriously, there's enough enemies here that we
can fight on a close to fair field that it's enjoyable) and it's also to try
out Sov, not seriously that's another reason.

    Let's look at the first one together. Content. What made the statement from
before, "We're growing too fast for Syndi and Placid to maintain content for
us." true? The last major engagement we had in Syndi was with an Evoke Tengu
gang in our Mega fleet, which at the time was about half Megas, half other
Armor BSs, and before we fully SRPed them. We kicked their ass. HARD. And it
was over a r64 moon they previously held. They made a massive push to take that
moon back with all their effort and we kicked their teeth in badly. Evoke is
larger than any other group in Syndi that was operating there at the time. What
does that mean then? There was no one there left that we could not out ship and
out gun. Very quickly we would have no one left to fight that could actually
engage us. Our content would dry up and we'd be looking to deploy or leave the
area. We decided to not wait for BRAVE to stop having content and start only
ever sitting in station doing nothing because everyone runs from us. We got an
offer that would allow us to do go to a content rich area, so we did.

    Second part of that. We wanted to try Sov. What do I mean? Sov has been a
topic that comes up from time to time within BRAVE. And it was gets argued out
to a stalemate. People on both side, BRAVE should take Sov(provide means for
members to make money to have FUN with) and BRAVE shouldn't take Sov(it's
boring and unFun!). The largest voice, both in BRAVE and from the outside has
been to not do it as Sov is unFun. But recently(last few monthes) there was
another opinion, another voice that started getting more people behind it. Why
should we assume it's unFun? We've never been there. People told us POS Bashes
were boring and yet people come out of the woodwork to do it and are enjoying
the time spend with their Alliance mates and having Fun on POS bashes. So
should we take people's word for it? Or take a dip into this gaint pool and
find out if it could be Fun for us?

    We decided to try it out for a bit. To see if we could have Fun with this
supposed boring aspect of EVE. And maybe we won't, but maybe we will. And if
we're here to have Fun we should explore all routes that could lead to having
Fun in EVE. Worst comes to worst we are back were we started with more money in
our pockets to rebuild in a new location and continue our journey in EVE.

This does not answer why BNI has to be deployed to "burn Catch", or to Sendaya
specifically. Which leads back to my original question: Why Sendaya, and why
Catch?

All of your stated goals could have been achieved anywhere, yet here we are in
Sendaya, a system that is a nightmare for fleet logistics (and I do not mean
the repair ships) and that is a non-obvious choice.

Lorilath
about 8 hours ago

        Where is the contradiction? We already affect any area we base out of
and technically whatever we do burns the area. Our payment literally only
affected where we are, that was my point.

    Does that mean the only deciding factor when Sendaya was chosen was that
BNI would get paid for it?


Sendaya in particular was a decision made by PVP there were several reasons for
this, the biggest one imo (and this is not a reflection on others opinions) is
strike range, we can bridge in very easily from here. Catch was and still is
the target of the Burning.

deathzor Tsukaya
about 8 hours ago
@Allister McGruffin sendaya has to do with cyno distances from catch why catch
because we are getting paid to burn catch ( by a party more then likely
interested in either using us a buffer between them and the goons or for a
other party to take catch ).

Lorilath Allister McGruffin

Allister McGruffin
about 8 hours ago
So we are in Sendaya because it's in cyno range/bridge range for Catch, and we
are in cyno range for Catch because we are Burning Catch?

Nicolai Serkanner
about 8 hours ago

    Again, this feels entitled. We've been flying battlecruiser+ ships since
raha, if you recall. Regarding the "abandonment" issues you have, what's the
point of staying in the same place forever? The same things would be happening
(same srp, same doctrines shifts, etc) but with no end except for more of the
same old crows flying around barleguet and people not having anything to do.


    As far as I can remember, we've had several main line doctrines. Minmatar
for talwars (and scythes). Gallente for thoraxes, exeqs and megathrons, and
amarr for ani. The talwar is MAYBE a 3-4 day train from 0 skills. Thoraxes have
been our main line doctrine forever, and megathrons play directly on those
skills. ANI doctrine is something amarr people have been begging for forever.


You have mixed a few posts into one comment, so I have taken out your replies
to two of my items.

We had a Revelation destroyed in Ussad a few days after we arrived in
Rahadalon. I remember. I do not want to get my own Battlecruiser+ ships blown
up on Corp/Alliance ops without a decent SRP. That is just my own opinbion and
I stick to it.

We have left Barleguet and again in my opinion we shouldn't have. People in
Brave weren't asked whether they wanted to leave. At least I didn't receive the
question. It might have been in the results of the survey, but as far as I know
those results have never been released. There were plenty of things left to do
in Barleguet … my first point. My second point … I believed leadership when it
was said we weren't going for Sov just yet. And now it seems I shouldn't have.

And I predict we aren't going back to Barleguet at all anymore … and that is
also not what has been said before. And if this becomes a trend … leadership
saying one thing and doing the other, well … I have to strongly disagree with
that.

We have switched main doctrines a few times. Are you denying that? Getting into
a Talwar is 3 or 4 days, flying the doctrine ship is way longer and you know
that, so why use this argument? Skills are always useful of course, but I would
have liked a bit more consistency … again, just my opinion.

And I share my opinions so leadership might learn that people might think
differently from the small group forming leadership.

Boson Clownstep
about 8 hours ago

    @Boson Clownstep given i'm a station traded i lose money when i spent it on
PVP its not about self-sufficient i demand not to lose money over helping out
alliance members that seems rather reasonable to me,


You are talking to someone who has spent well over 2billion on this deployment
so far and who has not recieved any SRP. (because I didn't request any).
Unfortunately I can't really say what I want to say to you, other than I think
it is unfortunate you are not more of a team player.

Goodluck.
Julian Stencsk Barabas Steerpike

Motre
about 8 hours ago

        Where is the contradiction? We already affect any area we base out of
and technically whatever we do burns the area. Our payment literally only
affected where we are, that was my point.

    Does that mean the only deciding factor when Sendaya was chosen was that
BNI would get paid for it?


No. Okay maybe Yes, but there's a reason for it. We are getting paid to Burn
Catch. That means we have to reach into Catch effectively. Reaching into Catch
from low sec by bridge is always a task of finding the least depressing choice.
Combine that with also wanting to ensure extract from Catch, and by the same
token getting into Catch when there is no bridge, by the fewest number of jumps
and you land on few choices. Then factor in ability to stage.

Ability to Stage? Yes. Office space, station advantages, cloning facility, ect.
Finding a staging system is like working magic almost. And finding one that can
support both BRAVE and three other alliances is…Well, let's just say finally
deciding on Sendaya was a royal b****. Office Space, when scouting in and
around Sendaya we located close to 40 offices to use spread out across a few
systems. While that meant offices may not be in Sendaya, they would be close.
Station. Sendaya is an almost kick out. One of our biggest problems was people
abusing the large dock ring in Barl to harass us. The ability of them to do
this in Sendaya is cut massively. They have to be willing to engage us if they
want to fuck with us. Cloning should explain itself, any staging location must
have cloning for swift returns.

Did we look at other systems? Yes. I'll be honest, they were looked for and
agrued over before we took the contract in full. Why? So we won't running
around like a headless chicken other wise.

Is Sendaya the perfect staging system? Bloody Hell no. But when we're contract
to Burn Catch it became the best choice for us to be able to achieve that
objective.

Other places we looked. Hasateem. Lots of stations and offices. Would be easy
to supply. Issue? Titans would have to be in Assah, forming up, reploying,
defending, bridging…All would become major issues. Faspera. PL is currently
living in that station. And so does RocketX(anyone remember him). We'd never
even get to leave system. Irshah. Terrible reach. We'd be unable to complete
objectives.
Reran Hibra

deathzor Tsukaya
about 8 hours ago
@Boson Clownstep well when the team is getting paid to do a job and i'm
expected to pay for my own stuff so the team can make money i'm not much of a
team player, neither you nor i should be expected to pay so the team can make
money.

Lorilath
about 7 hours ago

        Again, this feels entitled. We've been flying battlecruiser+ ships
since raha, if you recall. Regarding the "abandonment" issues you have, what's
the point of staying in the same place forever? The same things would be
happening (same srp, same doctrines shifts, etc) but with no end except for
more of the same old crows flying around barleguet and people not having
anything to do.


        As far as I can remember, we've had several main line doctrines.
Minmatar for talwars (and scythes). Gallente for thoraxes, exeqs and
megathrons, and amarr for ani. The talwar is MAYBE a 3-4 day train from 0
skills. Thoraxes have been our main line doctrine forever, and megathrons play
directly on those skills. ANI doctrine is something amarr people have been
begging for forever.


    You have mixed a few posts into one comment, so I have taken out your
replies to two of my items.

    We had a Revelation destroyed in Ussad a few days after we arrived in
Rahadalon. I remember. I do not want to get my own Battlecruiser+ ships blown
up on Corp/Alliance ops without a decent SRP. That is just my own opinbion and
I stick to it.

    We have left Barleguet and again in my opinion we shouldn't have. People in
Brave weren't asked whether they wanted to leave. At least I didn't receive the
question. It might have been in the results of the survey, but as far as I know
those results have never been released. There were plenty of things left to do
in Barleguet … my first point. My second point … I believed leadership when it
was said we weren't going for Sov just yet. And now it seems I shouldn't have.

    And I predict we aren't going back to Barleguet at all anymore … and that
is also not what has been said before. And if this becomes a trend … leadership
saying one thing and doing the other, well … I have to strongly disagree with
that.

    We have switched main doctrines a few times. Are you denying that? Getting
into a Talwar is 3 or 4 days, flying the doctrine ship is way longer and you
know that, so why use this argument? Skills are always useful of course, but I
would have liked a bit more consistency … again, just my opinion.

    And I share my opinions so leadership might learn that people might think
differently from the small group forming leadership.


You are always welcome to fly an ewar frig or fast tackle dependant on what is
needed, cheap and easy to replace.

We left Barleguet pre-emptively to prevent content starvation as Motre has
described, Catch is a place for good fights and it is a place of learning. If
it all goes tit's up here we can return to Barleguet, it is low sec nothing
prevents us going back, that is what we have communicated the whole time.

There are a lot of people in the alliance who are excited by sov so have
through a lot into it, especially Le Petit who loves nothing better than a
structure bash.

Doctrines will always switch I guarantee it, I've watched doctrines switch from
Armor Tanked RR BS (so they can tank aoe doomsdays) to arty maels to 100mn
Tengus to Baltecs to Sentry Domis to Slowcats all within the last 5 years of
playing and these are just the general EVE metas, on top of that you have the
SB doctrines, the rail thoraxes, the Foxcat fits, the new railgus of European
Goonion. You have to adapt in EVE.

And I'll just echo Motre above on his reasons for Sendaya.

Boson Clownstep
about 7 hours ago
I am here to play internet spaceships. Sendaya his been the most violent system
in the game since we deployed them. You quite literally cannot get any more
action then we get. It doesn't get any better then this.

Appreciate what you have.
Le Petite More Barabas Steerpike Reran Hibra Pax Civitas

Nicolai Serkanner
about 7 hours ago

    SRP or not, 25%, 50%, 100% ,150%, that's a question that doesn't matter. In
fact, that question is a red herring. The only question that matters is: Why
are we here? Which structures and which power constellations lead to the
decisions as they present themselves to us afterwards? And, who is paying us,
and what do they get out of it?

    I don't know or can't say some of the answers to your questions. But what I
can say for sure is, we are here to burn catch, we started to get some real
trouble finding fights of any sort in barleguet, and we needed room to grow and
a new challenge. This move allows all of the above.


You keep saying "we" … but do not come up with any "proof" we wanted or needed
what you claim.

Nicolai Serkanner
about 7 hours ago

    I am here to play internet spaceships. Sendaya his been the most violent
system in the game since we deployed them. You quite literally cannot get any
more action then we get. It doesn't get any better then this.

    Appreciate what you have.


Not everybody likes the same kind of action.

Ryvarant
about 7 hours ago
What happened to the FW corp that was going to be made for brave members to go
and make isk?

Boson Clownstep
about 7 hours ago

    @Boson Clownstep well when the team is getting paid to do a job and i'm
expected to pay for my own stuff so the team can make money i'm not much of a
team player, neither you nor i should be expected to pay so the team can make
money.


Your argument does not resonate with me. I have donated T2 ships to members of
fleets I have FC'd out of my own pocket. Anything that furthers the alliance
furthers me as well. Let me ask you this: Do you think we deployed here
primarily because we were payed to?

I am willing to bet you a PLEX right now that our alliance was payed less then
the value of all my assets for this deployment. Keep in mind that I have been
playing for less then a year, and have run a grand total of 3 missions.

Man up. This is not some big fucking conspiracy to generate revenue for a
select few. The opportunity cost definitely would not being even close to worth
it.

Allister McGruffin
about 7 hours ago
I want to know why "we" are burning Catch, and the only way to give a somewhat
comprehensible answer to that question is by talking openly about who is paying
us and on what conditions. This seems to be impossible, because all I get is
people telling me, as predicted, that we are in Catch because we are burning
Catch, and that we are in Sendaya because we are burning Catch, and that we get
paid because we are burning Catch, and that we are burning Catch because we are
in Sendaya, and that we are burning Catch because we get paid.

Lorilath
about 7 hours ago

    I want to know why "we" are burning Catch, and the only way to give a
somewhat comprehensible answer to that question is by talking openly about who
is paying us and on what conditions. This seems to be impossible, because all I
get is people telling me, as predicted, that we are in Catch because we are
burning Catch, and that we are in Sendaya because we are burning Catch, and
that we get paid because we are burning Catch, and that we are burning Catch
because we are in Sendaya, and that we are burning Catch because we get paid.


Why do you need to know so badly? Does it change what we're doing? Would it
change how we're doing it?
Reran Hibra

Boson Clownstep
about 7 hours ago
Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps one of the conditions of us accepting
payment was us not revealing who payed us?

I think it is pretty damn obvious who payed us to anyone with any semblance of
critical thinking skills. Just think about it for a minute.

I pose this question to you Allister: What are you so worried about? What is
your worst case scenario; what answer do you fear most to the questions that
you have posed?
Reran Hibra

deathzor Tsukaya
about 7 hours ago
Do you think we deployed here primarily because we were payed to?
Yes, there is not really motivation other then that for use to leave placid (
the lack of content argument smell like propaganda to me ).

Julian Stencsk
about 7 hours ago
Thank you for all the leadership for going through this thread as well as more
of the experienced vets. This helped give me a new view on the way the SRP
should be viewed. Personally, I rarely ever use the SRP codes other than for
large ships such as Megathrons etc.

Boson Clownstep
about 7 hours ago
I think it was very obvious to everyone, both in BNI or not, that we outgrew
Placid/Syndicate.
Reran Hibra Arik Alabel

Nicolai Serkanner
about 7 hours ago

        I want to know why "we" are burning Catch, and the only way to give a
somewhat comprehensible answer to that question is by talking openly about who
is paying us and on what conditions. This seems to be impossible, because all I
get is people telling me, as predicted, that we are in Catch because we are
burning Catch, and that we are in Sendaya because we are burning Catch, and
that we get paid because we are burning Catch, and that we are burning Catch
because we are in Sendaya, and that we are burning Catch because we get paid.


    Why do you need to know so badly? Does it change what we're doing? Would it
change how we're doing it?


Yes, it does.

    I think it was very obvious to everyone, both in BNI or not, that we
outgrew Placid/Syndicate.


I don't think it is obvious at all.

Arkonios Evotori
about 7 hours ago
Guess what happened in Syndicate just about the same time we left? ev0ke formed
a coalition with some of the entities in Syndicate. You know why they did that?
To handle our numbers. We outgrew the region numbers wise. The area around us
tried to adapt to have a chance against us. Guess what happened to that area
when we left. Fucking Small Gang PvP returned to the area.
Arik Alabel

deathzor Tsukaya
about 7 hours ago
@Boson Clownstep: given most fleets where getting fights its was and still
isn't that clear given we could not get a market stable in Syndicate given we
could not secure TXW it seemed like we had a lot of stuff left todo given we
sold all we had been fighting for it seems like the POS people at the very
least agree with me we could not defend it while being deployed in sendaya.

Nicolai Serkanner
about 7 hours ago

        I want to know why "we" are burning Catch, and the only way to give a
somewhat comprehensible answer to that question is by talking openly about who
is paying us and on what conditions. This seems to be impossible, because all I
get is people telling me, as predicted, that we are in Catch because we are
burning Catch, and that we are in Sendaya because we are burning Catch, and
that we get paid because we are burning Catch, and that we are burning Catch
because we are in Sendaya, and that we are burning Catch because we get paid.


    Why do you need to know so badly? Does it change what we're doing? Would it
change how we're doing it?


Why are you so badly not telling membership?

Boson Clownstep
about 7 hours ago
In my observation, the main issue we are facing on this deployment is that we
live in a kick station in lowsec, If we lived 3 systems away in npc null, we
would not have to deal with many of the challenges we are currently dealing
with in Sendaya.
Reran Hibra

Lorilath
about 7 hours ago

            I want to know why "we" are burning Catch, and the only way to give
a somewhat comprehensible answer to that question is by talking openly about
who is paying us and on what conditions. This seems to be impossible, because
all I get is people telling me, as predicted, that we are in Catch because we
are burning Catch, and that we are in Sendaya because we are burning Catch, and
that we get paid because we are burning Catch, and that we are burning Catch
because we are in Sendaya, and that we are burning Catch because we get paid.


        Why do you need to know so badly? Does it change what we're doing?
Would it change how we're doing it?


    Yes, it does.

        I think it was very obvious to everyone, both in BNI or not, that we
outgrew Placid/Syndicate.


    I don't think it is obvious at all.


Yes we were obviously out-growing syndicate, the amount of entities that would
fight us on roams was close to 0, plus as I have said many times here there is
a lot of learning to be done in Sov Null that we will need to know going
forward. That you don't see it that way is not mine or any other part of
leaderships fault.

As to why I'm not saying who? Well that one is easy, it is opsec and will
remain so for the time being until the entity and/or person chooses that they
want the information released.

Also to answer on the not being able to get a market stable in Syndicate or
secure TXW welcome to npc nullsec you cannot secure it and the market is open
to anyone if the demand was there it would have been stocked.

Allister McGruffin
about 7 hours ago

        I want to know why "we" are burning Catch, and the only way to give a
somewhat comprehensible answer to that question is by talking openly about who
is paying us and on what conditions. This seems to be impossible, because all I
get is people telling me, as predicted, that we are in Catch because we are
burning Catch, and that we are in Sendaya because we are burning Catch, and
that we get paid because we are burning Catch, and that we are burning Catch
because we are in Sendaya, and that we are burning Catch because we get paid.


    Why do you need to know so badly? Does it change what we're doing? Would it
change how we're doing it?


I want to know because I don't like to be kept in the dark, and because I would
like to be able to base my own opinions, interpretations and decisions on as
solid a foundation as possible. A hermetic, circular argument doesn't fulfil
that requirement.

    Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps one of the conditions of us
accepting payment was us not revealing who payed us?

    I think it is pretty damn obvious who payed us to anyone with any semblance
of critical thinking skills. Just think about it for a minute.

    I pose this question to you Allister: What are you so worried about? What
is your worst case scenario; what answer do you fear most to the questions that
you have posed?

I am not worried about anything. But here is the thing: If you cannot tell me
why you do something, or, in this case, if BNI cannot tell me who pays BNI to
do something, then there is no foundation for the claims that all of this
happens because of an intrinsic need or because of self-evident necessity.

It doesn't matter whether "not telling" is part of the arrangement, because all
that betrays is that there is bad conscious involved, either on behalf of BNI
leadership or on behalf of whoever is paying BNI. You do hide your motivation
if it is indeed spawned by an altruistic mindset, and you do not hide an
agreement that doesn't disadvantage on of the parties.

Name whoever pays it, bring it out in the open, and everybody can scrutinise
the decision for themselves. It is silly and, frankly, insulting to repeatedly
hear that BNI is doing all of the things it does for the right reasons and that
it is not playing the meta game, while at the same time, the same people do not
want to substantiate those claims.

If all of this is for the "greater good" and in BNI's best interest, then play
with open cards. Until you do, all this says is that either you are deceiving
your members, or somebody is playing you while you desperately try to pretent
otherwise. Until this is out in the open, deathzor's original question stands:
Either leadership is malicious and lying, or leadership is stupid. The onus is
on you to disprove both versions by being open and transparent.

Allister McGruffin
about 7 hours ago

    It doesn't matter whether "not telling" is part of the arrangement, because
all that betrays is that there is bad conscious involved, either on behalf of
BNI leadership or on behalf of whoever is paying BNI. You do hide your
motivation if it is indeed spawned by an altruistic mindset, and you do not
hide an agreement that doesn't disadvantage on of the parties.



*conscience & *You do not hide, sorry for those

Boson Clownstep
about 7 hours ago

    I am not worried about anything. But here is the thing: If you cannot tell
me why you do something, or, in this case, if BNI cannot tell me who pays BNI
to do something, then there is no foundation for the claims that all of this
happens because of an intrinsic need


I started to reply but I am done engaging. I appreciate you being so candid
with your opinions..

    there is a lot of learning to be done in Sov Null that we will need to know
going forward. That you don't see it that way is not mine or any other part of
leaderships fault.


I agree.

In your opinion, how much of a role, (if any), do you feel our decision to base
out of lowsec (as opposed to npc null) is contributing to our current
logistical troubles?

Le Petite More
about 7 hours ago
Wow this thread managed to drag out a lot of bullshit I thought we had left
behind us. These whiny complaints are the same we heard in Hek, Rahadalon, and
Barleguet. I am surprised the term "mumble elite" hasn't been dragged out by
some awoxing shit stirring spy.

SRP is a nice thing that the alliance offers because it can. It is a
privilege,, not a right. be grateful for what you get and don't complain unless
leadership is stealing the money or mismanaging it. Trust me no one in
leadership is stealing the money. Even at the FC level (we aren't technically
leadership) we bleed isk for this alliance.Like someone said above we have lost
300 billion in the last ten days. That we can cover even a portion of that is a
miracle and due to some very hard work by a few unappreciated people in
leadership who then have to read whiny threads like this one.

Barleguet was out of content. Sure you could still get a fight but it was the
same fight every day. Bait out evoke with thorax fleet, drop bigger fleet,
murder evoke, and then go home. I was not growing in anyway as an FC or pilot
from that. While in the last few weeks in Sendaya (even with my limited play
time due to school) I have been learning way more. So we have to move to create
content so the alliance can have fun. Where do we go? We want some where with
lots of people fighting which means the south. We can't just invade a main
member of a huge block because we won't get fun content which leaves,
Providence, Geminate, and Catch. How do we decide? Well we aren't here to take
and claim a region as our primary goal so that rules out Geminate, Providence
is a lot of grinding, we don't have a feud, and they will fight us without
having to attack their sov. That leaves Catch which gets us fights with provi
(who we can beat), CFC (who we struggle to beat but sometimes get lucky), RUS
(who we beat when alone but they won't fight without sov being threatened), N3
(who brings good fights), and lots of juicy souther ratters. The payment was
icing on the top.plus Catch was weak enough that we managed to take some sov
without really trying which meant we get to play around with it and see how our
organization can be improved if we ever want to go for real sov somewhere that
we have a real chance of taking and holding

Who is paying us? Why do you have the right to know this? What have you
sacrificed? Do you stay up all night leading fleets for people or skip nights
with your friends to fuel pos's? There is such a thing as operational security,
plausible deniability, a public image as unaligned, group just looking for
fights, and the fact that the group didn't want us to say. Hell I don't even
know for sure who it is though I could probably guess or just ask the right
people. Leadership has to consider how appearing as a pet or being tied to a
party affects us. Even if every group in eve knows who paid us (and they do
because anyone can figure it out with two brain cells and a free second) that
is a very different thing then us saying we are accepting a contract from
*blank.*

Lol staging out of NPC nul. Then we would actually be camped in station and not
just ahve some people crying about it when you can always get out of a lowsec
station.

BRAVE isn't perfect. We can always strive to better ourselves by improving our
FC's, organization, reducing the amount of hurdles leadership has to go
through, and fighting against a misplaced desire for us to fall into a pile of
bickering corporations rather than an alliance. The division heads and Lychton
with the help of the four floaters do a great job for no reward other than the
pleasure of seeing BRAVE grow.
Gregor Adoulin Arkonios Evotori Reran Hibra

Lorilath
about 7 hours ago

            I want to know why "we" are burning Catch, and the only way to give
a somewhat comprehensible answer to that question is by talking openly about
who is paying us and on what conditions. This seems to be impossible, because
all I get is people telling me, as predicted, that we are in Catch because we
are burning Catch, and that we are in Sendaya because we are burning Catch, and
that we get paid because we are burning Catch, and that we are burning Catch
because we are in Sendaya, and that we are burning Catch because we get paid.


        Why do you need to know so badly? Does it change what we're doing?
Would it change how we're doing it?


    I want to know because I don't like to be kept in the dark, and because I
would like to be able to base my own opinions, interpretations and decisions on
as solid a foundation as possible. A hermetic, circular argument doesn't fulfil
that requirement.

        Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps one of the conditions of us
accepting payment was us not revealing who payed us?

        I think it is pretty damn obvious who payed us to anyone with any
semblance of critical thinking skills. Just think about it for a minute.

        I pose this question to you Allister: What are you so worried about?
What is your worst case scenario; what answer do you fear most to the questions
that you have posed?

    I am not worried about anything. But here is the thing: If you cannot tell
me why you do something, or, in this case, if BNI cannot tell me who pays BNI
to do something, then there is no foundation for the claims that all of this
happens because of an intrinsic need or because of self-evident necessity.

    It doesn't matter whether "not telling" is part of the arrangement, because
all that betrays is that there is bad conscious involved, either on behalf of
BNI leadership or on behalf of whoever is paying BNI. You do hide your
motivation if it is indeed spawned by an altruistic mindset, and you do not
hide an agreement that doesn't disadvantage on of the parties.

    Name whoever pays it, bring it out in the open, and everybody can
scrutinise the decision for themselves. It is silly and, frankly, insulting to
repeatedly hear that BNI is doing all of the things it does for the right
reasons and that it is not playing the meta game, while at the same time, the
same people do not want to substantiate those claims.

    If all of this is for the "greater good" and in BNI's best interest, then
play with open cards. Until you do, all this says is that either you are
deceiving your members, or somebody is playing you while you desperately try to
pretent otherwise. Until this is out in the open, deathzor's original question
stands: Either leadership is malicious and lying, or leadership is stupid. The
onus is on you to disprove both versions by being open and transparent.


Nice ultimatums, 10/10 for effort, but it is not a either or here. If someone
pays us money and agrees a contract with us and under those terms asks for who
they are or who they represent to not be disclosed then we are going to honor
those terms, it brings in isk which shock, horror pays for SRP. Whoever it is
may have a bad conscience themselves or maybe they want to help encourage Brave
Collective, the reasoning they have is entirely personal to them.

Also it is not a given right that you get to scrutinize every decision made,
and that's not a personal attack at you either, I have no right messing with
doctrines or industry as they are not my areas.

We do not have to play with open cards as you say, the reasoning that you have
"Cause you want to know" is not sufficient imo.

We can argue back and forth all evening, all week or all month if you so wish,
at the end of the day we aren't going to be pressured into releasing
information just because you're interested as to who paid us some isk.

@Boson Clownstep Lowsec is generally a good idea for bases of operations as you
cannot get sov flipped and also you cannot be bubble camped, it is far easier
to cyno into a location such as this. Sendaya is no where near perfect but it
is serviceable and we are making large inroads every week to normalising prices
and working on logistics. Every time I have operated in Null be it Sov or NPC,
I have always had a low sec staging system where things are supplied in from.
It doesn't take much to get Blockade Runner in and out of Sendaya, I do it
daily.

Julian Stencsk
about 7 hours ago

    I am not worried about anything. But here is the thing: If you cannot tell
me why you do something, or, in this case, if BNI cannot tell me who pays BNI
to do something, then there is no foundation for the claims that all of this
happens because of an intrinsic need or because of self-evident necessity.


If I am correct we're doing this for the fun of doing it. I don't understand
what the real issue being discussed is. The information is being withheld and
may be withheld for many reasons. But I just don't understand why needing to
know the name so we can generate more drama cynos is really necessary. The
Sendaya deployment was a bit sudden and provided a lot of Logistical concerns,
but in the end we've moved to an area even more flush with content. Formed our
own coalition and personally I am having a blast and I will trust the
leaderships moves because they have generated more fun content for me in this
game than any other corporation I've been involved in which hasn't been many.

At this point I just feel like we're trying to nitpick details for the sake of
being nitpicked. If you ultimately are so unhappy or frustrated with the way
things are going then there are other options in terms of Alliances/Coalitions
that operate differently.

And to the above post a few posts back about the SRP codes being hard to find
or having to leave before the op is over. I will address that in my fleets.
Cause it is an issue that definitely needs to be resolved.



Gregor Adoulin Reran Hibra

Boson Clownstep
about 7 hours ago

    @Boson Clownstep Lowsec is generally a good idea for bases of operations as
you cannot get sov flipped and also you cannot be bubble camped, it is far
easier to cyno into a location such as this. Sendaya is no where near perfect
but it is serviceable


I think what you said has a lot of merit (and I have personally not encountered
any logistical difficulties in Sendaya), however I feel that any fleet sitting
off our undock would quickly be reshipped into pods at the hands of our (or
someone else's) bombers. Currently our only option is to brawl it out, pound
for pound (holy shit that was a fun fight last night by the way vs ncdot
eagles!)

Lorilath
about 7 hours ago

        @Boson Clownstep Lowsec is generally a good idea for bases of
operations as you cannot get sov flipped and also you cannot be bubble camped,
it is far easier to cyno into a location such as this. Sendaya is no where near
perfect but it is serviceable


    I think what you said has a lot of merit (and I have personally not
encountered any logistical difficulties in Sendaya), however I feel that any
fleet sitting off our undock would quickly be reshipped into pods at the hands
of our (or someone else's) bombers. Currently our only option is to brawl it
out, pound for pound (holy shit that was a fun fight last night by the way vs
ncdot eagles!)


We would have similar problems to them plus have nice tasty bubbles preventing
us from warping off. There are ways to combat it certainly but for now it is
better for us to be in Sendaya.
Reran Hibra

Boson Clownstep
about 6 hours ago

    We would have similar problems to them plus have nice tasty bubbles
preventing us from warping off. There are ways to combat it certainly but for
now it is better for us to be in Sendaya.


Fair enough.

deathzor Tsukaya
about 6 hours ago

    SRP is a nice thing that the alliance offers because it can. It is a
privilege,, not a right. be grateful for what you get and don't complain unless
leadership is stealing the money or mismanaging it. Trust me no one in
leadership is stealing the money.

Well given nobody can check this outside of a small group all i have is trust,
so i have to accept the fact that leadership made a deal that costs us money (
because you say so )

    Even at the FC level (we aren't technically leadership) we bleed isk for
this alliance.Like someone said above we have lost 300 billion in the last ten
days. That we can cover even a portion of that is a miracle and due to some
very hard work by a few unappreciated people in leadership who then have to
read whiny threads like this one.

No idea what they do because its opsec.

    Who is paying us?

Well there are really not many options but neither of us is gonna name drop

    Why do you have the right to know this? What have you sacrificed? Do you
stay up all night leading fleets for people or skip nights with your friends to
fuel pos's?

Nope, i spent nights being logi at gate camps also given its my free time be
happy i give used to give up any time at all for operations that where dull
because like i said i won't be doing that anymore.

    There is such a thing as operational security, plausible deniability, a
public image as unaligned, group just looking for fights, and the fact that the
group didn't want us to say. Hell I don't even know for sure who it is though I
could probably guess or just ask the right people. Leadership has to consider
how appearing as a pet or being tied to a party affects us. Even if every group
in eve knows who paid us (and they do because anyone can figure it out with two
brain cells and a free second) that is a very different thing then us saying we
are accepting a contract from *blank.*

everyone in EVE can figure it out yeah the party paying us isn't the big deal
the fact that the alliance get paid for the work the members provide and they
get nothing back for is the problem that again means somebody else is making
money if its not inside brave then its are contractor meaning we are
effectively donating to them the argument still stand if we don't make money it
is stupid to accept such a deal.

Its also a deal that hurts are new players the most and this should be a deal
breaker for BNI a specially its a deal where new players struggle to make money
i have spent a lot of my free time in the dojo and its the biggest problem
facing are new players.

Allister McGruffin
about 6 hours ago

        I am not worried about anything. But here is the thing: If you cannot
tell me why you do something, or, in this case, if BNI cannot tell me who pays
BNI to do something, then there is no foundation for the claims that all of
this happens because of an intrinsic need or because of self-evident necessity.


    If I am correct we're doing this for the fun of doing it. I don't
understand what the real issue being discussed is. The information is being
withheld and may be withheld for many reasons. But I just don't understand why
needing to know the name so we can generate more drama cynos is really
necessary. The Sendaya deployment was a bit sudden and provided a lot of
Logistical concerns, but in the end we've moved to an area even more flush with
content. Formed our own coalition and personally I am having a blast and I will
trust the leaderships moves because they have generated more fun content for me
in this game than any other corporation I've been involved in which hasn't been
many.

    At this point I just feel like we're trying to nitpick details for the sake
of being nitpicked. If you ultimately are so unhappy or frustrated with the way
things are going then there are other options in terms of Alliances/Coalitions
that operate differently.

Instead of trying to "nitpick", I'm trying to point out what in my opinion are
significant structural shortcomings. There is no "ultimatum" or anything like
that, because, as people point out, neither I nor any other individual have any
power or right to do so. However, what I want is agency, which I do not feel I
have.

I will not bring it up again, because, as I said initially, I'd be surprised if
any concessions were to be made. There is no point arguing with a
self-referential, hermetic system.

The usual calls for "love it or leave" do not come unexpected, though I do
think any sufficiently big organisation needs to allow for reflexion,
self-scrutiny and needs a way to question its own decisions. I don't
particularly care whether we are indeed paid by PL or N3 (N2?) or whether all
of this is a desperate attempt to make TEST relevant again, but if I cannot be
given any form of logical reasoning that doesn't require me to already have
bought into what I have been told before, that tells me a lot in itself and can
form as starting point for my own actions and decisions.

Nicolai Serkanner

Lorilath
about 6 hours ago

        SRP is a nice thing that the alliance offers because it can. It is a
privilege,, not a right. be grateful for what you get and don't complain unless
leadership is stealing the money or mismanaging it. Trust me no one in
leadership is stealing the money.

    Well given nobody can check this outside of a small group all i have is
trust, so i have to accept the fact that leadership made a deal that costs us
money ( because you say so )

        Even at the FC level (we aren't technically leadership) we bleed isk
for this alliance.Like someone said above we have lost 300 billion in the last
ten days. That we can cover even a portion of that is a miracle and due to some
very hard work by a few unappreciated people in leadership who then have to
read whiny threads like this one.

    No idea what they do because its opsec.

        Who is paying us?

    Well there are really not many options but neither of us is gonna name drop

        Why do you have the right to know this? What have you sacrificed? Do
you stay up all night leading fleets for people or skip nights with your
friends to fuel pos's?

    Nope, i spent nights being logi at gate camps also given its my free time
be happy i give used to give up any time at all for operations that where dull
because like i said i won't be doing that anymore.

        There is such a thing as operational security, plausible deniability, a
public image as unaligned, group just looking for fights, and the fact that the
group didn't want us to say. Hell I don't even know for sure who it is though I
could probably guess or just ask the right people. Leadership has to consider
how appearing as a pet or being tied to a party affects us. Even if every group
in eve knows who paid us (and they do because anyone can figure it out with two
brain cells and a free second) that is a very different thing then us saying we
are accepting a contract from *blank.*

    everyone in EVE can figure it out yeah the party paying us isn't the big
deal the fact that the alliance get paid for the work the members provide and
they get nothing back for is the problem that again means somebody else is
making money if its not inside brave then its are contractor meaning we are
effectively donating to them the argument still stand if we don't make money it
is stupid to accept such a deal.

    Its also a deal that hurts are new players the most and this should be a
deal breaker for BNI a specially its a deal where new players struggle to make
money i have spent a lot of my free time in the dojo and its the biggest
problem facing are new players.


All you have is trust will be a mantra of your EVE life, you think the CFC
posts exactly where every incoming isk comes from? What about PL?

Members do get plenty back, you get SRP, you get constant fleets, you get the
glorious whelps where you fight outnumbered and still win on isk efficiency,
you got to participate in the taking of BRAVEs first Sov system and BRAVES
first Sov Station. These things are stuff that most EVE players dream about
doing. That you can do it in an atron or a maulus or a griffin is even better
than most coalitions.

I do not see a penny of extra isk for the added work that I do. I attend fleets
as much as the next guy which is on top of the duties I have by being on the
council.

This alliance and coalition has never been about the bottom line, we are here
to blow things up, sometimes it's ourselves, a lot of the time it's the enemy.

PVP is not an isk positive thing in eve, the sooner you get used to it the
better.
Toros Culzean Arkonios Evotori Reran Hibra

Boson Clownstep
about 6 hours ago

    PVP is not an isk positive thing in eve, the sooner you get used to it the
better.

/thread
Julian Stencsk Toros Culzean Arkonios Evotori Anja Kovac Reran Hibra

Julian Stencsk
about 6 hours ago

        PVP is not an isk positive thing in eve, the sooner you get used to it
the better.

    /thread


Toros Culzean

Lorilath
about 6 hours ago

            I am not worried about anything. But here is the thing: If you
cannot tell me why you do something, or, in this case, if BNI cannot tell me
who pays BNI to do something, then there is no foundation for the claims that
all of this happens because of an intrinsic need or because of self-evident
necessity.


        If I am correct we're doing this for the fun of doing it. I don't
understand what the real issue being discussed is. The information is being
withheld and may be withheld for many reasons. But I just don't understand why
needing to know the name so we can generate more drama cynos is really
necessary. The Sendaya deployment was a bit sudden and provided a lot of
Logistical concerns, but in the end we've moved to an area even more flush with
content. Formed our own coalition and personally I am having a blast and I will
trust the leaderships moves because they have generated more fun content for me
in this game than any other corporation I've been involved in which hasn't been
many.

        At this point I just feel like we're trying to nitpick details for the
sake of being nitpicked. If you ultimately are so unhappy or frustrated with
the way things are going then there are other options in terms of
Alliances/Coalitions that operate differently.

    Instead of trying to "nitpick", I'm trying to point out what in my opinion
are significant structural shortcomings. There is no "ultimatum" or anything
like that, because, as people point out, neither I nor any other individual
have any power or right to do so. However, what I want is agency, which I do
not feel I have.

    I will not bring it up again, because, as I said initially, I'd be
surprised if any concessions were to be made. There is no point arguing with a
self-referential, hermetic system.

    The usual calls for "love it or leave" do not come unexpected, though I do
think any sufficiently big organisation needs to allow for reflexion,
self-scrutiny and needs a way to question its own decisions. I don't
particularly care whether we are indeed paid by PL or N3 (N2?) or whether all
of this is a desperate attempt to make TEST relevant again, but if I cannot be
given any form of logical reasoning that doesn't require me to already have
bought into what I have been told before, that tells me a lot in itself and can
form as starting point for my own actions and decisions.


There is plenty of scope for scrutiny and this will be something that is talked
about at council meetings, but believe me there is nothing extra to be gained
here. You knowing where your SRP comes from amounts to nothing, if it comes
from a magical space cow that we milk on occasion or if it comes from a
benevolent god or if it comes out of leaderships own pockets, it makes no
difference. At the end of the day you have to spend less isk than you would if
we had no srp.

You knew Braves policies when you joined, you've surely seen our propaganda and
I'm sure you've watched our videos at some point or another. Brave is about
explosions, explosions everywhere!

Khaldune Ro
about 6 hours ago
ITT people complain about: 1) not enough isk, 2) too much content, and 3)
leadership is vague.

pssst, you (yes you reading this right now) have the power to change all three
things…
1) Go earn isk just like everyone else in the entire games does, welcome to eve.
2) Lead a fleet to kill all of the content OR if you can't handle the content
then move back to Barleguet. No one is forcing you to be in Sendaya. You will
always be welcome back when you get bored.
3) Become part of leadership and you too can become vague while learning the
reasons why.
Toros Culzean Boson Clownstep Reran Hibra

deathzor Tsukaya
about 6 hours ago
its not about knowing where its coming from again as simple as i can make it:
if brave is not making isk from the deal they accepted about catch then it was
a bad deal and stupid to accept, because it means brave is paying to advance
somebody else his political goals.

If brave is getting money from the deal ( something everyone denied so far ):
Then a specially are new players ( preferably people like me as well but a
specially are new players should be rewarded for this ), and yes this might
include tracking what members take part in what ops i have no problem with
collecting that data.
Then again i would reward players willing to site for 4 hours in an empty
system at a gate camp more then those that only go on fun roams ( currently
this is not done).

But i guess i should not complain because i get some isk when some content
shows up at the gate camp and i die lets ignore the fact that sitting at a gate
camp or bashing a structure isn't exactly fun i really have no personal reason
to go on those ops, its not because i hate leadership i won't go its because
why should i ?

Toros Culzean
about 6 hours ago
all the people complaining about too much content and not enough isk can fuck
off. seriously.
we can help newbies as much as humanly possible and ask cagali or many other
people i am the last one to deny help.
BUT
pvp doesnt make you isk and the way brave newbies does pvp makes even less isk.
you KNEW this when you joined us.
there are HUNDREDS of way to make isk in this game. they just require you to
get off your ass and stop station spinning.
we ALL had to start as newbies and we all have made our own fortune.
EVE is a game of consequences and if you dont want to sometimes do something to
earn you isk, then you have to live with the consequence: not being able to do
much pvp.

if you dont like the way we handle things, then leave for
highsec-carebear-corp20036. you can make plenty of isks with them.
Benjaminion Reran Hibra

Allister McGruffin
about 6 hours ago

    all the people complaining about too much content and not enough isk can
fuck off. seriously.
    we can help newbies as much as humanly possible and ask cagali or many
other people i am the last one to deny help.
    BUT
    pvp doesnt make you isk and the way brave newbies does pvp makes even less
isk. you KNEW this when you joined us.
    there are HUNDREDS of way to make isk in this game. they just require you
to get off your ass and stop station spinning.
    we ALL had to start as newbies and we all have made our own fortune.
    EVE is a game of consequences and if you dont want to sometimes do
something to earn you isk, then you have to live with the consequence: not
being able to do much pvp.

    if you dont like the way we handle things, then leave for
highsec-carebear-corp20036. you can make plenty of isks with them.


Please, do show me where exactly people are claiming they are unwilling to earn
ISK in this thread? deathzor Tsukaya made it obvious that he is funding his
ship loses via a money-making alt, so clearly you cannot be talking about him.

And please, tell me all about the things people know in advance when joining a
corporation that caters heavily towards new players.

Cordelia Clopton
about 5 hours ago
LOL at the leadership in this thread making the exact same arguments with the
exact same attitude that got some random dude kicked from corp last night and
made Caguli Caguli cry like a ten year old girl. But seriously…

I have watched the Brave propaganda, and I read every last word of the
recruitment materials on Reddit and in those first few emails. BNI advertises
itself as as first-stop corp for the newest of players, and even if it didn't,
its extraordinarily lax recruitment policies make it the default corporation
for those players. Its mission statement is, basically: FUN AND CLASSY. During
quite a lot of time playing over the past month, I've observed it meets these
objectives with an acceptable measure of success. After years of playing MMOs
it's certainly one of the more enjoyable groups I've experienced.

All that being said, this deployment is the opposite of fun for a lot of new
players. In case you guys have forgotten, EVE PVP - and particularly
fleet-based, strategic PVP - is an extraordinarily steep learning curve both in
terms of game skills and game mechanics. Our new bros hadn't even learned how
to adequately avoid Minas back in Barle, and we brought them to Sendaya, a kick
out station with blobs of Interceptors and sniping Tengus camping not only our
undock but also our corporate safes. The DIs have been instructed to teach our
fleets how to insta-undock because we have so many new bros losing their
precious few ships before they even get to the staging POS. Once they manage to
get in a fleet and out of the station, they are taken out on long, mysterious
if not boring ops with uncommunicative FCs which often result in a good
welping. When they finally run out of ships, they're told they need to start an
alt to go grind ISK or buy some PLEX. This is a fantastic strategy if Brave is
actually trying to smother new players in the crib by making it either
prohibitively expensive to play or *actually telling them to go away.*

This is a problem that more DI-led Talwar fleets will only solve to a point,
especially considering that we are still taking those fleets into Derelik and
Catch where ships will be lost more frequently than they were in Barle and
those ships will still be more expensive to replace than they were back in
Barle and thus there will be fewer and fewer opportunities to scale that
learning curve than there were back in Barle. Don't get me wrong, I love
Sendaya. It's driven me to space bankruptcy, but I love it here. That's why I
can sympathize when new players say they're having less fun here than they did
in a more peaceful system, because they simply can't afford to play at this
level yet. It's natural at that point to feel as though the corp's objectives
aren't so much to serve new players as some other, undisclosed motivation. This
inevitably leads to less classiness as people get bored and frustrated and
either quit or get up to no good.

BNI isn't purely a PVP organization. We have explorers. We have miners. We have
industrialists and haulers. We have members who are quite experienced at
ISK-generating activities such as Faction Warfare and ratting. We are quite
good at encouraging PVP training fleets and presenting ship doctrines and skill
training guides for that purpose, but when faced with an honest question of
"how do I sustain this PVP habit?" the responses usually boil down to "start an
alt and do X activity" "stop whining," and "Google." This doesn't do anything
to encourage member retention, and frankly it diminishes the fun per hour for
these players. Perhaps there might be a way to add the excellent camaraderie
BNI supplies for PVP into these other, ISK-generating activities? Would the
more industrial branches of BNI be willing to offer some beginner training or
mentoring for new Braves who just need to learn and do enough to stay in T1
frigs? Give a pilot SRP, they fly for a day. Teach a pilot how to ISK, they fly
for a lifetime.
Anja Kovac Crazy HybridChick Reran Hibra Thrina

Diece Opherus
about 5 hours ago
This thread has rapidly evolved into an Existential Crisis.

To solve this crisis, go to http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Catch , and take note
of who controls SOV there(Hint its AAA).
Then go to http://evemaps.dotlan.net/sovereignty and see if you can find what
Systems AAA Alliances have lost in the last week, and who took them.
Use some form of logic to deduce who might like to see us share our "FUN" in
Catch. Ignore this conclusion because who cares.

Now go to that terrible website http://themittani.com/news/solar-titan-down
,Ignore the article because there is nothing about how a member of HONOR baited
for a Titan Kill, and read my glorious Haiku in the comments section.

And lastly, take the saddles off of the Llamas, they are tired and need to rest
for a ilttle while, maybe you should all go out and blow up some spaceships.

7o





Pax Civitas

Lorilath
about 5 hours ago

    LOL at the leadership in this thread making the exact same arguments with
the exact same attitude that got some random dude kicked from corp last night
and made Caguli Caguli cry like a ten year old girl. But seriously…

    I have watched the Brave propaganda, and I read every last word of the
recruitment materials on Reddit and in those first few emails. BNI advertises
itself as as first-stop corp for the newest of players, and even if it didn't,
its extraordinarily lax recruitment policies make it the default corporation
for those players. Its mission statement is, basically: FUN AND CLASSY. During
quite a lot of time playing over the past month, I've observed it meets these
objectives with an acceptable measure of success. After years of playing MMOs
it's certainly one of the more enjoyable groups I've experienced.

    All that being said, this deployment is the opposite of fun for a lot of
new players. In case you guys have forgotten, EVE PVP - and particularly
fleet-based, strategic PVP - is an extraordinarily steep learning curve both in
terms of game skills and game mechanics. Our new bros hadn't even learned how
to adequately avoid Minas back in Barle, and we brought them to Sendaya, a kick
out station with blobs of Interceptors and sniping Tengus camping not only our
undock but also our corporate safes. The DIs have been instructed to teach our
fleets how to insta-undock because we have so many new bros losing their
precious few ships before they even get to the staging POS. Once they manage to
get in a fleet and out of the station, they are taken out on long, mysterious
if not boring ops with uncommunicative FCs which often result in a good
welping. When they finally run out of ships, they're told they need to start an
alt to go grind ISK or buy some PLEX. This is a fantastic strategy if Brave is
actually trying to smother new players in the crib by making it either
prohibitively expensive to play or *actually telling them to go away.*

    This is a problem that more DI-led Talwar fleets will only solve to a
point, especially considering that we are still taking those fleets into
Derelik and Catch where ships will be lost more frequently than they were in
Barle and those ships will still be more expensive to replace than they were
back in Barle and thus there will be fewer and fewer opportunities to scale
that learning curve than there were back in Barle. Don't get me wrong, I love
Sendaya. It's driven me to space bankruptcy, but I love it here. That's why I
can sympathize when new players say they're having less fun here than they did
in a more peaceful system, because they simply can't afford to play at this
level yet. It's natural at that point to feel as though the corp's objectives
aren't so much to serve new players as some other, undisclosed motivation. This
inevitably leads to less classiness as people get bored and frustrated and
either quit or get up to no good.

    BNI isn't purely a PVP organization. We have explorers. We have miners. We
have industrialists and haulers. We have members who are quite experienced at
ISK-generating activities such as Faction Warfare and ratting. We are quite
good at encouraging PVP training fleets and presenting ship doctrines and skill
training guides for that purpose, but when faced with an honest question of
"how do I sustain this PVP habit?" the responses usually boil down to "start an
alt and do X activity" "stop whining," and "Google." This doesn't do anything
to encourage member retention, and frankly it diminishes the fun per hour for
these players. Perhaps there might be a way to add the excellent camaraderie
BNI supplies for PVP into these other, ISK-generating activities? Would the
more industrial branches of BNI be willing to offer some beginner training or
mentoring for new Braves who just need to learn and do enough to stay in T1
frigs? Give a pilot SRP, they fly for a day. Teach a pilot how to ISK, they fly
for a lifetime.


We aren't saying Sendaya is easy, we also aren't necessarily saying go
elsewhere, what we are saying is that we're not being bullied into releasing
information that people don't need to know. I'm more than happy to guide people
through my ISK making process, it's nothing fancy.

Also we can't cater to everyone whilst we want as many people to have fun on
fleets as possible, appeasing 100% of your player base is impossible, Sendaya
and operations in the Catch area have lead to some hugely interesting fights
recently as I outlined above, hell one of our coalition members lost his
carrier in a takedown of a russian titan how awesome is that?

The suggestion of buying plex is going to be a valid one especially at the
moment with plexs gaining huge value and honestly the best way to earn isk is
to start a neutral alt and go grind it, that's EVEs beginner money making for
you. The ships will be more expensive for a while yet I agree but they will
only come down in price.

Also there are people pushing for ISK making activities look at The Desolate
Order or Crow Vanguard's recent posts on reddit, I've said it before in this
thread and I will say it again, EVE is what you make of it.

P.s. if you need to make isk find 10 buddies take some interceptors or
destroyers and go rat with them (I suggest not in sendaya), sure you'll get
jumped sometimes but who knows you might even win.

Le Petite More
about 4 hours ago
The only person from leadership who has commented is Motre and Lorilath.
Dismissing the rest of us isn't going to change the fact that you are just
trying to stir up trouble Cordelia.

We had sniping Macharial and Dramiels on our undock in Hek, arty cynabels and
talwars in Rahadalon, and Crows and Navy Omens in Barleguet. These are the same
issues we face every time we move. Eve is not safe. We help you. We don't
dismiss you because we are new. We don't punish you for losing ships. We also
cannot hand hold you and guarantee your safety. People have to listen, ask
questions, and use all the wonderful guides we put up or they are going to die
more than the rest of us.

Alts and buying isk are two options we suggest. Honestly plex is the best isk
per hour for most of us. But we also suggest clone soldiers, sites, belt
ratting, wormholes, exploration, and many other ways in this thread and in all
the threads on how to make isk. We give extensive lessons on this and I
personally help lots of newbies as does everyone else in the Brave dojo. You
are lying through your teeth when you present those three responses because
there are many easy ways to make isk that we show people, they just have to be
willing to put in a little bit of time.

Frigates will always be useful and with SRP and the free frigate program anyone
can pvp "at this level." You are just trying to stir up trouble because every
argument you used had already been disproved by multiple people in this thread.
This drama lama has been sheared before and it will end with one or two bad
apples leaving, some constructive criticism that helps us improve as an
organization, and nobody will remember it in five months and I will have to
make this post again.
Toros Culzean Lorilath Reran Hibra

Nicolai Serkanner
about 4 hours ago

        I want to know why "we" are burning Catch, and the only way to give a
somewhat comprehensible answer to that question is by talking openly about who
is paying us and on what conditions. This seems to be impossible, because all I
get is people telling me, as predicted, that we are in Catch because we are
burning Catch, and that we are in Sendaya because we are burning Catch, and
that we get paid because we are burning Catch, and that we are burning Catch
because we are in Sendaya, and that we are burning Catch because we get paid.


    Why do you need to know so badly? Does it change what we're doing? Would it
change how we're doing it?


Why are you so badly not telling membership?

                I want to know why "we" are burning Catch, and the only way to
give a somewhat comprehensible answer to that question is by talking openly
about who is paying us and on what conditions. This seems to be impossible,
because all I get is people telling me, as predicted, that we are in Catch
because we are burning Catch, and that we are in Sendaya because we are burning
Catch, and that we get paid because we are burning Catch, and that we are
burning Catch because we are in Sendaya, and that we are burning Catch because
we get paid.


            Why do you need to know so badly? Does it change what we're doing?
Would it change how we're doing it?


        Yes, it does.

            I think it was very obvious to everyone, both in BNI or not, that
we outgrew Placid/Syndicate.


        I don't think it is obvious at all.


    Yes we were obviously out-growing syndicate, the amount of entities that
would fight us on roams was close to 0, plus as I have said many times here
there is a lot of learning to be done in Sov Null that we will need to know
going forward. That you don't see it that way is not mine or any other part of
leaderships fault.

    As to why I'm not saying who? Well that one is easy, it is opsec and will
remain so for the time being until the entity and/or person chooses that they
want the information released.

    Also to answer on the not being able to get a market stable in Syndicate or
secure TXW welcome to npc nullsec you cannot secure it and the market is open
to anyone if the demand was there it would have been stocked.


I am not saying it is anybodies fault. I just have a different opinion. And I
have not been convinced by any argument so far. The only thing I read is that
you and others just say "because it is so" … That doesn't make it true.

I also reads in your response we will not go back, and holding that back from
membership I find less tolerable than the move itself.

Cordelia Clopton
about 4 hours ago
How incredibly dismissive of you, Le Petite. Maybe instead of repeating
yourself over and over you should try listening, especially if you find you're
getting the same feedback from players over and over. I'm sure you're right,
though: you'll still be here long after they've all taken your advice and moved
on to other things. You win, I guess.

Hail Sagan
about 4 hours ago
I've tried writing alot of stuff but it didn't come out right.

SRP is something we have because it funds our PvP habits by fighting
objectives, ergo we get more fights. Right now we aren't very good at
completing objectives, so our SRP remains relatively small, while our losses
are high. As we get more skilled, 2 things will get alot better.

1) We can complete more objectives because we can fly the right counters, so we
have higher SRP wallets
2) People will have high enough skills to fly a battleship with T2 guns, or T2
logi, or a T3 cruiser, which can all be used to blitz missions, do incursions
with a hi-sec alt, or do a C5/C6 wormhole, and with that capital, you could
station trade, where profits are percentage-based. Hell, you could quit corp,
and salvage level 4 missions.

I think right now we're adapting to our current environment, but whether sov
null-sec is for us is a question we'll have to answer eventually. I don't know
the answer to that question, and I can't speak for everyone. If I could be I'd
be Jebus. Actually, no, I'd be Super Jebus.
Lorilath Reran Hibra

Le Petite More
about 4 hours ago
I am not being dismissive of anybody. There are some good points that people
have brought up for review in this thread such as your point about FC's needing
to be more communicative which is something we do need to work on. Though I do
ask people to be patient with FC's, we have a lot of pressure on us, and have
to deal with a lot. My suggestion is to ask the FC at the end of a fleet what
is going on. Most of us are happy to give a quick debriefing after a fight
about what our goal was and what we accomplished. I usually give my fleet a
quick brief before hand too. "We are grinding this structure because bashing
makes me happy and you guys enjoy my company." Or something to that affect.

That being said there are also people just trying to stir up shit or being
obtuse. Nicolai we clearly explained why we are here. We needed more content
and almost everyone is down here to shoot. Plus we get to play with sov
mechanics and third party big fights and events while having our alliance
wallet boosted with payment so SRP can continue and so we can field more
expensive doctrines. Burn catch, have fun, feed on the content.
Lorilath Arkonios Evotori

Mango Radius
about 4 hours ago
Obvious spies are obvious.

We are playing a spaceship game. Alliances everywhere are falling over each
other for good fights.

Enjoy it. This doesn't happen everywhere.
Reran Hibra

Nicolai Serkanner
about 4 hours ago

    The only person from leadership who has commented is Motre and Lorilath.
Dismissing the rest of us isn't going to change the fact that you are just
trying to stir up trouble Cordelia.

    We had sniping Macharial and Dramiels on our undock in Hek, arty cynabels
and talwars in Rahadalon, and Crows and Navy Omens in Barleguet. These are the
same issues we face every time we move. Eve is not safe. We help you. We don't
dismiss you because we are new. We don't punish you for losing ships. We also
cannot hand hold you and guarantee your safety. People have to listen, ask
questions, and use all the wonderful guides we put up or they are going to die
more than the rest of us.

    Alts and buying isk are two options we suggest. Honestly plex is the best
isk per hour for most of us. But we also suggest clone soldiers, sites, belt
ratting, wormholes, exploration, and many other ways in this thread and in all
the threads on how to make isk. We give extensive lessons on this and I
personally help lots of newbies as does everyone else in the Brave dojo. You
are lying through your teeth when you present those three responses because
there are many easy ways to make isk that we show people, they just have to be
willing to put in a little bit of time.

    Frigates will always be useful and with SRP and the free frigate program
anyone can pvp "at this level." You are just trying to stir up trouble because
every argument you used had already been disproved by multiple people in this
thread. This drama lama has been sheared before and it will end with one or two
bad apples leaving, some constructive criticism that helps us improve as an
organization, and nobody will remember it in five months and I will have to
make this post again.


I agree with posters here that say it is especially difficult for the newest
members to learn this unforgiven game while we are in a situation as we have
found ourselves in at the moment.

As a suggestion for improvement:
Is it perhaps an idea to have a different (nearby) location where the newest
people are trained and helped how to survive in this game and make ISK. A place
where they aren't immediately jumped by Minas and his cronies ( Hi Minas! ) or
get into complicated ops where asking many questions about basic stuff is not
very handy.
I learned most about this game when flying with smaller groups where there was
plenty of room for asking questions and practise. I know most would like to
jump into the deep from the get go, but would a few days of waiting hurt?
Reran Hibra

Le Petite More
about 4 hours ago
The problem is if we move people Minas and the like will just follow. Being
with us is the safest they can be…
Lorilath Reran Hibra

Nxtg3n
about 4 hours ago
I didn't bother reading the whole thread (this thing is circular as hell) so if
someone else has said this i apologize. I also apologize if i offend. Seems
like a Mittens plot to drive a wedge in Brave. Dare i say Spai? Sorry but i
don't see content beyond our wildest dreams as a problem. SRP is nice and to
some extent required, but i dont decide to have fun based on if i am getting
Internet pixel money. If i get low on isk (and it happens as i am not space
rich) i buy a plex. If i cant afford a plex i guess i may have to either find a
way to make it or just not play as much as i would like. Thats just how it is,
RL is a real thing. One final final comment and this is the one that may offend
but i don't believe i have ever really expressed my true feelings about the SRP
thing. Stop your bitching and get back to having fun. It doesnt take much to
fly a frig and most everyone will give those out for free if asked. For real
this whining about ISK and SRP is complete bullshit. Again i apologize for my
frank opinion.
Lorilath Reran Hibra

Arik Alabel
about 4 hours ago

    I'd like to point out that there's tons of low sec systems nearby to rat in
and high sec to mission run in. Your last idea isn't a bad one, my hungarian
friend
    I'd also like to point out the mittani's consistent usage of meta gaming
thru in corp spies saying negative things in forums, in chat, and on comms.
    Sometimes you don't get to know things. That's how large alliances work.
You can demand it until you're blue donut in the face, but sometimes, you just
don't get to know everything. Sorry.
    We are probably the most open and transparent large alliance in the game.
Council seats, meeting notes. I know that most of you making the most noise are
all almost exactly 1 month and 8 days in this corp/alliance, but that's a hell
of a lot more transparent and voice than you typically get, which is 0
    Seems like a Mittens plot to drive a wedge in Brave. Dare i say Spai? Sorry
but i don't see content beyond our wildest dreams as a problem.
    I honestly am offended that a "one month vet" in brave is accusing me or
someone else in leadership of using this alliance as a personal profit machine.
Its silly, and ridiculous. As much as anyone that's been here for any time (you
know, besides the spies and brand new players accusing us) can tell you - they
may not agree with leadership's stance sometimes, but they sure as hell don't
make isk off of what we do

Lorilath Diece Opherus Boson Clownstep Reran Hibra Thrina

Benjaminion
about 4 hours ago
All this crying for ISK makes me sad. There are so many ways to get super
spacerich - most people just don't bother exploring (HINT) the options. They
instead sit in station all day, spin their frigate and wait for someone who can
take blame when it blows up to come along (FC/leadership) ant tell them what to
do. Then complain about being poor. And about the market (HINT). And about
people not moving their contracts from Mendori (HINT).
Reran Hibra

Barabas Steerpike
about 3 hours ago
I joined Brave to shoot things. I fly what I can afford to explode. When it
does, I buy another and rinse and repeat. I never ask for SRP, I often don't
even insure my ships. When I run out of ISK, I make more. and then I buy stuff
to explode again. If I can't afford it, I don't fly it.
Reran Hibra Arik Alabel

Boson Clownstep
about 3 hours ago
You are doin it rite

Dunk Dinkle
about 3 hours ago
Allister McGruffin

Kiryen O'Bannon
about 2 hours ago
The move has happened. It's what we're doing. I wasn't asked for my opinion as
a director of my corp, nor was my CEO, and we're both OK with it. I don't see
"why did we move" as germane to the question of "how do I ISK?" now that we're
here. Leadership in this alliance puts in tremendous amounts of time, and by
leadership I include FCs and all the various other people in positions where
they.. well, lead, not just the alliance council and such.

That said, there is a hidden issue amongst all the general disrespect,
trolling, and drama above: While there's plenty of people willing to explain
generally how to make ISK (PLEX, make an alt, PI, rat, etc.) people are still
learning how to apply those methods in this environment, and are losing ships
faster than they are making ISK in the process. This is right after paying for
jump freightering out here, or taking time off from any ISK-making activities
to fly ships up because it's too expensive to strip a bunch of rigs.

Content is great for the alliance; it is not so great when the content in
Sendaya and its environs is wiping out people's ratting ships and anomoly
running ships and PI haulers because effective local defense is wanting, for
various reasons. A "Sendaya defense fleet" isn't going to do it either because
the attackers are not a couple catalysts in crows; they're BL or PL or whoever
in AHACs with logi.

It is a real concern too because most people can really only welp so many
times, and that number of times is far fewer with Fireflys and Megalodons than
with Pocket Rockets or Talwars. If that number of times is reached by too many
people too soon, then ability to do stratops will inevitably affected while
people are off trying to recoup losses.. and getting constantly set back by
roving gangs of kill-farmers. If I lose one ratting assault frigate, that's
several hours of work right there, and while less expensive alternatives are
available they generally don't have the firepower to rat effectively or lack
agility to avoid the aforementioned attackers. This is a problem for me, with
excellent support skills and a wide variety of available ships, who can take
time out to train PI without limiting my development too much. For someone that
doesn't even have capacitor or fitting skills, it's more of an issue.

All that said, have some basic respect for your leadership, or at least just
quit with the spai tactics.. I mean come on, how obvious can you be? It's very
easy when you are NOT in leadership to sit back and criticize in a
non-constructive way because you bear no responsibility and can just
oversimplify everything down to how you see it. They are right - everyone does
not need to know everything, just like in real life you do not need access to
things like the operational and technical details of an AEGIS cruiser's warfare
systems.
Diece Opherus Dreamer Targaryen

deathzor Tsukaya
about 2 hours ago
Sorry I stupidly assumed that we where like making money when we fight somebody
else his war for money not that we where losing money on fighting somebody else
his war, guess I was wrong I think you can write me down as one of the bad
apples Le Petite More was talking about.

I can remember the words, we are not gonna rent sov guys because we don't want
to become pets when they where said on mumble I guess that was a lie sorry we
are sucking dick and paying for the privilege at this point.
If this is the type of content we can expect in the future and the goal of the
alliance then yes I’m out, sorry I really just don't like paying for sucking
dick.

Either leadership is so stupid the are sucking dick and paying to do so or the
question hey guys where is the money going is a valid question, guess what
either scenario means my faith in leadership is misplaced there for why should
I trust them?
Given this to be true and given any bridge I had have clearly been burned
because I spoke up honestly about something that I still going on and something
that is a big problem for many players how don't dear to speak up about getting
isk at this point and have tried many of the suggestions.
Given I gave voice to something going on right now within brave that is a
problem an got this response I literally see no reason to stay.

So long and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this
We tried to warn you all but oh dear?

You may not share our intellect
Which might explain your disrespect
For all the natural wonders that
grow around you

So long, so long and thanks
for all the fish
P.s. feel free to kick me as i can't be asked to login right now.

Kiryen O'Bannon
about 2 hours ago
Don't expect responses to your concerns from leadership if all you're going to
do is use abusive and loaded language rather than engage in intelligent
conversation. People that are willing to discuss concerns reasonably and listen
to what others have to say get good responses from leadership; people that make
sarcastic comments about dick-sucking get told to be quiet and like it.
Allister McGruffin Arik Alabel

deathzor Tsukaya
about 2 hours ago

    Don't expect responses to your concerns from leadership if all you're going
to do is use abusive and loaded language rather than engage in intelligent
conversation. People that are willing to discuss concerns reasonably and listen
to what others have to say get good responses from leadership; people that make
sarcastic comments about dick-sucking get told to be quiet and like it.


tried the friendly route already didn't work

Boson Clownstep
about an hour ago
Obvious troll is obvious.
Arik Alabel

Dreamer Targaryen
about an hour ago
Sad to see that after bringing up some legitimate concerns you jeopardized all
of this effort because you could not accept a "no" for an answer. If you would
have thought about it beforehand, there is and never will be any reason to
reveal/confirm which party payed the coalition. Getting angry about it won't
change anything.

deathzor Tsukaya
about an hour ago
Dreamer i don't give a fuck about it anymore because clearly bring the problems
up gets me trolled and called spai so i might as well not bring them up as for
the new members with the problems well my advice is drop corp ( i have done so
at this point )
Really its beyond my ability to help anybody on this, and there is no point in
having the argument ( it never was about the party in question ).

Dreamer Targaryen
about an hour ago
Indeed, it was Allister McGruffin somehow derailing it into an "who paid us
anyway"-story.
You on the other hand insist on getting "your share of the money". (Moneyquote:
"preferably people like me as well but a specially are new players should be
rewarded for this".) If "the leadership" tells you, that it goes into the
srp-fund and therefore in our pockets then I don't understand why you are being
upset. We have 4 elected people in the council in order to "watch over" the
stuff "the other" leadership-people do. They (should) know about what happens
with the isk (if we got any). If they think this information is "opsec", you
should try to get elected next term and then find out for yourself.

Lorilath
about an hour ago

    Dreamer i don't give a fuck about it anymore because clearly bring the
problems up gets me trolled and called spai so i might as well not bring them
up as for the new members with the problems well my advice is drop corp ( i
have done so at this point )
    Really its beyond my ability to help anybody on this, and there is no point
in having the argument ( it never was about the party in question ).


Given your basic premise in your original post was SRP is not enough and tell
me who's paying my SRP, then when it was calmly explained to you and a couple
of others in this post, you still rejected the notion, I'm not sure what else
we could have done.

I honestly came into this thread to try and explain what I could about the
situation, at the end of the day people will always struggle to bring ships to
fleet whether that's through isk, logistics or wardecs. We provide SRP to help
offset these issues that is all.

Whether our isk comes through a merc contract or from R64s it's all plowed into
getting you guys ships. Most people in this thread started off friendly and
offered advice, instead at every turn, you've ignored the helpful information
and consistently whined about it being a bad deal.

It's a shame you've seen it all this way and honestly do wish I could have
helped, best of luck wherever you end up.

P.s. anyone reading this that still has questions feel free to mail me in game,
as I said I am a floater on the council and I want to help.
Toros Culzean Arik Alabel

deathzor Tsukaya
43 minutes ago

        Dreamer i don't give a fuck about it anymore because clearly bring the
problems up gets me trolled and called spai so i might as well not bring them
up as for the new members with the problems well my advice is drop corp ( i
have done so at this point )
        Really its beyond my ability to help anybody on this, and there is no
point in having the argument ( it never was about the party in question ).


    Given your basic premise in your original post was SRP is not enough and
tell me who's paying my SRP, then when it was calmly explained to you and a
couple of others in this post, you still rejected the notion, I'm not sure what
else we could have done.

    I honestly came into this thread to try and explain what I could about the
situation, at the end of the day people will always struggle to bring ships to
fleet whether that's through isk, logistics or wardecs. We provide SRP to help
offset these issues that is all.

    Whether our isk comes through a merc contract or from R64s it's all plowed
into getting you guys ships. Most people in this thread started off friendly
and offered advice, instead at every turn, you've ignored the helpful
information and consistently whined about it being a bad deal.

    It's a shame you've seen it all this way and honestly do wish I could have
helped, best of luck wherever you end up.

    P.s. anyone reading this that still has questions feel free to mail me in
game, as I said I am a floater on the council and I want to help.


Read the post again i NEVER asked for the source, as its not hard to figure out
what i asked for a specially is when we do ops to secure SRP budget that are
generally boring ops or do ops of importance to the alliance people get paid
SRP @ sendaya prices, given i was basically told this is what you get or else
fuck off i choice to fuck off because at this point fighting for brave in major
ops feels like I'm flipping the bill for securing the SRP budget ( not me alone
by a long shot ).

Who is paying us was never something i asked about or cared to known, i do care
that we are fight for somebody else at a loss because that is what ultimately
for me destroys my faith in leadership i don't care who this party is i care
its not us and where losing money helping them.

Nxtg3n
38 minutes ago
Not sure who the "we" is since you dropped corp.

deathzor Tsukaya
35 minutes ago

    Not sure who the "we" is since you dropped corp.


We would be correct there because it was speaking about past ops there for ops
when i was still a member of brave also it was repeating a past question there
for i can us we ( as i was part of the group at the time of asking the question
do strat ops ) but nice troll

Lorilath
32 minutes ago

            Dreamer i don't give a fuck about it anymore because clearly bring
the problems up gets me trolled and called spai so i might as well not bring
them up as for the new members with the problems well my advice is drop corp (
i have done so at this point )
            Really its beyond my ability to help anybody on this, and there is
no point in having the argument ( it never was about the party in question ).


        Given your basic premise in your original post was SRP is not enough
and tell me who's paying my SRP, then when it was calmly explained to you and a
couple of others in this post, you still rejected the notion, I'm not sure what
else we could have done.

        I honestly came into this thread to try and explain what I could about
the situation, at the end of the day people will always struggle to bring ships
to fleet whether that's through isk, logistics or wardecs. We provide SRP to
help offset these issues that is all.

        Whether our isk comes through a merc contract or from R64s it's all
plowed into getting you guys ships. Most people in this thread started off
friendly and offered advice, instead at every turn, you've ignored the helpful
information and consistently whined about it being a bad deal.

        It's a shame you've seen it all this way and honestly do wish I could
have helped, best of luck wherever you end up.

        P.s. anyone reading this that still has questions feel free to mail me
in game, as I said I am a floater on the council and I want to help.


    Read the post again i NEVER asked for the source, as its not hard to figure
out what i asked for a specially is when we do ops to secure SRP budget that
are generally boring ops or do ops of importance to the alliance people get
paid SRP @ sendaya prices, given i was basically told this is what you get or
else fuck off i choice to fuck off because at this point fighting for brave in
major ops feels like I'm flipping the bill for securing the SRP budget ( not me
alone by a long shot ).

    Who is paying us was never something i asked about or cared to known, i do
care that we are fight for somebody else at a loss because that is what
ultimately for me destroys my faith in leadership i don't care who this party
is i care its not us and where losing money helping them.


My apologies it is late you specifically did not ask who. The rest of my posts
still stand though, we've done some really awesome things since we came down to
Sendaya and will continue to do them. Sure there's some stuff that is boring,
but most fleets end up in some sort of fun fight or a challenge such as the
other week where I had to fly 15 jumps through camped null with only 1 other
pilot for company after we welped, but that's a story for another time.

Unless you explicitly join the goons corp (which btw you still have to pay irl
money to join as you have to be a member of SA) you will always lose money
pvping, that's kinda what makes it fun you have a distinct risk every time you
undock from a station.

As I said above it's a shame we can't see eye to eye and best of luck out there.

Nxtg3n
27 minutes ago

        Not sure who the "we" is since you dropped corp.


    We would be correct there because it was speaking about past ops there for
ops when i was still a member of brave also it was repeating a past question
there for i can us we ( as i was part of the group at the time of asking the
question do strat ops ) but nice troll


Good one calling me a troll. I laughed. Go away Mittens

deathzor Tsukaya
16 minutes ago

    Unless you explicitly join the goons corp (which btw you still have to pay
irl money to join as you have to be a member of SA) you will always lose money
pvping, that's kinda what makes it fun you have a distinct risk every time you
undock from a station.

    As I said above it's a shame we can't see eye to eye and best of luck out
there.


Well given how it was handled there is no way those gaps can be resolved in the
near future ( i would advice you to have a seriously look at the points that
where made).
I seriously doubt i will have a long term future in eve to be honest ( brave
was kinda me giving eve a last shot after dropping the game before because it
was dull, and it was trapped in a US TZ corp ), the moment i posted the topic i
known there was a huge risk it would escalate into me leaving ( given it has
grown beyond the point where i could even function as a member anymore within
brave ) its kinda the only thing i could really do because regardless of me
staying or leaving i had to burn any supply of trust i had build up (it was a
small stack luckily enough) to bring the issue to light in the first place.