Brett-sensei

[19:42] <Brett> the core jp back play philosophy is based around understanding and using the map
[19:44] <lostconfused> hmmmmm, well maybe my front philosophy needs adjustment, I always feel like I am getting blindsided
[19:44] <Brett> easy to describe but hard to execute flowchart:
[19:45] <Brett> 1. If your team doesn't control the center, take the center.
[19:45] <Brett> 2. If your team controls the center, attack outward.
[19:45] <Brett> that's basically all you need to do
[19:46] * Quits: KinAsuka (~Kincaido@c-24-8-40-103.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 33.0.3/20141105223254])
[19:46] * Joins: KinAsuka (~Kincaido@c-24-8-40-103.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
[19:47] <lostconfused> hmmmmm
[19:47] <Brett> a lot of front players feel confident because they can handle 1v1 situations by playing safe, and on paper its really easy to think you can just do something like play Norn and poke forever, or stall as WTV until you get zero system
[19:47] <lostconfused> well in a partner game, not everyone might subscribe to that concept and would prefer to surrender teritory
[19:48] <Brett> but then you get pushed back, your partner gets choked out, and if you dont get a kd then your team is fucked
[19:48] <Brett> surrendering territory is something done only grudgingly
[19:49] <Brett> the more space you take, the more room you give your back player
[19:49] <Brett> by moving forward, you force opposing teams to either escape and risk being pinned by your back player, or be put into a bad position
[19:49] * Joins: ALmega (webchat@ip70-171-88-157.no.no.cox.net)
[19:50] <Enron> how the hell do you guys figure all this out
[19:50] <Brett> a front player who uses the map selfishly just leaves his partner prone to dying
[19:50] <Brett> a lot is jp theory
[19:50] <@haly> it sounds like moba theory tbh
[19:50] <Brett> if you analyze the strength of 2ks
[19:50] <Enron> how much time does one have to put in to this to get this kind of understanding
[19:50] <@haly> replace back with hard carry
[19:50] <Brett> its pretty obvious
[19:51] <Brett> why the good suits are good
[19:51] <Enron> shit amazes me
[19:51] <Brett> its because they either are strong at center defense, influence, or can function without center control
[19:51] <lostconfused> well I mean you play the game enough
[19:51] <lostconfused> you kind of form your own understanding of how it works
[19:52] <Enron> that's not true.  i think you still have to make the effort to learn
[19:52] <lostconfused> at a core level I see it as how Brett described
[19:52] <Enron> i have thousands of games played, and i still suck
[19:52] <KinAsuka> stop bein casuals
[19:52] <KinAsuka> Kappa
[19:52] <Enron> because im not willing to put in this kind of work
[19:52] <Enron> getting good at gundam feels like a job D:
[19:53] <Brett> its based on this concept that you can get an understanding of how you can win the battle as a back player
[19:53] <@haly> getting good at any game can feel like a job
[19:53] <Brett> since the back player often times is the one who is fighting to maintain their territory
[19:55] <lostconfused> well
[19:55] <Brett> basically if you play front and you don't actively think about space control
[19:55] <lostconfused> not everyone has to be good at a game
[19:55] <lostconfused> you might not want the same thing
[19:55] <lostconfused> from it
[19:55] <lostconfused> as someone else
[19:55] <Brett> your back player has a tough time matching vector or getting in position
[19:56] <Brett> all you have to do is imagine where you would move as a back player given a front players position
[19:56] <Brett> if the front player is not even at the center point of the map
[19:56] <Brett> the back player has to wrap around the sides
[19:56] <Brett> the back player has less boost than the front player though, and it makes it difficult to actually get into position while accomplishing as much
[19:57] <Brett> its much easier for the front player to be the one moving along the sides outside the center, acquiring lock etc
[19:57] <Brett> while the back player who is in a central position is able to get L-shapes and match vector quite easily
[19:57] <Brett> this is how seemingly "random" or "accidental" shots / situations are actually created
[19:58] <Brett> and how players can become "blind-sided" and get hit by stray stuff
[19:58] <Brett> its not actually accidental.
[19:58] <Brett> it's due to the relative positioning of players, which is something that's actually constructed.
[19:59] <Brett> this is why every single strong back suit has good tools to allow them to either a) take the center, b) preserve the center, or c) ignore the center.
[20:00] <Brett> this is also an easy way to concretely figure out what strengths your suit has, and how to utilize them progressively
[20:00] <@haly> where would ez8 fall between those 3
[20:01] <Brett> he's strong at playing outside the center and he's also good at taking it
[20:01] <@haly> my instinct would tell me that his range allows him to ignore positioning
[20:01] <@haly> ah
[20:01] <Brett> he's very good at 1v1 situations, which makes him good at actually wrestling the center from opposing back players
[20:02] <Brett> though he has issues controlling it due to scrambling when being double-locked
[20:02] <Brett> but you basically win when you have ez8 in the center of the map
[20:03] <@haly> i'm confused about that first part, why are the back players meeting in the center, in my mind teams are arranged along rows, with the fronts occupying the middle rows and the backs in their respective back rows, backs meeting would imply the front collapsed somewhere
[20:05] <Brett> yes
[20:05] <@haly> i see
[20:05] <Brett> because at some point, one team gets a knockdown and takes the center
[20:06] <JKTrixer> oo, lesson time
[20:06] <JKTrixer> and it's not even 3 am. lucky
[20:07] <lostconfused> yeah no one advancing means a stalemate
[20:07] <Brett> basically once the front player takes the center
[20:07] <Brett> its actually not very productive to just sit in the center thinking your central position means anything
[20:07] <Brett> the back player cannot move up to the front player in the center because he'll just become an easy target
[20:07] <Brett> so he still needs to be slightly behind
[20:08] <Brett> ultimately even if you have center, if you just try and stay there eventually things just even out again
[20:08] <Brett> its not necessarily a bad thing, because you aren't really risking anything either
[20:08] <Brett> but conversely if you allow your back player to move to the center and the frornt player engages forward
[20:08] <Brett> you put pressure on the positioning wise and it causes a few various situations to occur
[20:09] <Brett> one is that the opposing back player wraps around to the side as this occurs and attempts to fight for the middle
[20:09] <Brett> this ends up basically being a pseudo split 1on1 situation, which is fine
[20:10] <Brett> its still much better for the team who had the center because if either team chooses to double lock instead of taiman, the back player who controls the center has much more room to either run or chase
[20:10] <@haly> in JP tournaments, do they call out this stuff to each other or is it just assumed/relayed through coms
[20:10] <@haly> it sounds like the kind of thing voice chat would be used for in other games
[20:10] <@haly> but in an arcade setting that wouldn't be feasible
[20:11] <Brett> well generally in local play if you want a double lock you can call it but
[20:11] <Brett> its usually just assumed
[20:11] <Brett> in most cases there is an option that makes more sense
[20:11] <Brett> OR
[20:11] <Brett> you just look at the map
[20:11] <Brett> if you're the front player you can just see your partners actions on the map
[20:11] <Brett> even if you cant see him
[20:12] <Brett> an alternative situation is that when the front player pushes forward, the cornered opposing team decides to double lock the front player
[20:13] <Brett> this is still okay, because both players ignoring a central back player makes it pretty likely (depending on the suit) that they will match vector and get a hit
[20:13] <Brett> (this hit is what many may mistakenly feel is accidental)
[20:14] <Brett> in addition, if the enemy back player is ignoring the back player in the middle, even in a damage trade its much better: you're getting damage on their back player in exchange for dmg on your front
[20:15] * Joins: crimsonlink (Mibbit@108-214-153-47.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net)
[20:15] <Brett> a third scenario is one in which either opponent attempts to escape into the center
[20:15] <JKTrixer> you said taiman and I knew what that was because of Smash Bros of all things
[20:15] <Brett> if you're a suit with either a) strong close ranged tools or b) good ways of protecting your position
[20:15] <@haly> what is taiman jktrix
[20:15] <Brett> you can actually just hit this front player
[20:15] <JKTrixer> 1v1
[20:16] <@haly> ah
[20:16] <crimsonlink> darn I missed out part of Brett's lecture on Gundam lol
[20:16] <Brett> a) if they run away low to the ground, they have to avoid your fire from the center And the front player who's back they're showing
[20:16] <Brett> this is extremely scary and likely to make them get hit
[20:16] <Brett> b) they jump and focus on defense while moving forward
[20:17] <Brett> if you are a suit with good tools, this means you just hit them
[20:17] <Brett> because you can steal a landing here
[20:18] <Brett> or, if you have a good close range tool, they can basically do nothing about you closing in distance
[20:18] <Brett> such as, say, blue frame
[20:18] <Brett> if they jump to escape the corner and you read that (minimap / observation)
[20:18] <Brett> and move forward at the same time
[20:18] <Brett> you can just boomerang them in the face and there's nothing they can do
[20:19] <Brett> this is basically one of the ways melee suits can press their advantage
[20:19] <Brett> even though, for example, red frame loses to delta in a 1v1
[20:19] <Brett> delta has to run backwards from redframe in general
[20:19] <crimsonlink> da wut?
[20:19] <crimsonlink> wow knowledge bomb right there
[20:20] <lostconfused> cant let red frame get close
[20:20] <Brett> this inherently means red frame can just take the center away from a delta who has it (this is assuming the fronts are off 1v1'ing in the corner or sides etc)
[20:20] <lostconfused> too risky
[20:21] <Brett> since most melee suits force the opponent to run away, you can use your inherent influence to take the center, and create a good situation from there. this is part of why melee suits aren't just garbage.
[20:21] <crimsonlink> just CSa Kappa
[20:21] <Brett> this is extremely easy to see concretely if you just play gerbera
[20:21] <crimsonlink> tfw you realize you have used Exia wrong all this time lol
[20:21] <Brett> unless the opponents are really bad and haven't realized how gerbera's main works, you will see that in general you just have to run away from gerbera the entire game
[20:22] <Brett> (until she runs out of ammo temporarily)
[20:22] <crimsonlink> unless quanta or one of the X suits
[20:22] <crimsonlink> lol ammo, let me melee you
[20:22] <Brett> its very easy to analyze and see how spacial control is influenced when you play a suit that operates primarily on it
[20:22] <lostconfused> nah
[20:22] <lostconfused> you dont want to challenge gerbera tetra in melee
[20:22] <lostconfused> while its holding down A
[20:22] <Brett> in general, nothign beats gerbera.
[20:22] <Brett> every.
[20:23] <Brett> gerbera is basically the best melee suit in the game
[20:23] <@haly> i have
[20:23] <Brett> her melee is A.
[20:23] <@haly> never seen a good gerbera
[20:23] <@haly> ever
[20:23] <crimsonlink> ^
[20:23] <Brett> we have a good one in norcal actually
[20:23] <Brett> but he doesnt netplay
[20:23] <@haly> lame
[20:23] <ALmega> oh you'll know one when you meet it lol
[20:23] <@haly> no i won't cause i don't play, kappa
[20:23] <Brett> thats the only reason we know a lot about gerbera here lol
[20:23] <crimsonlink> no one ever plays it except Brett that one time
[20:23] <@haly> the theory is interesting though
[20:23] <Brett> this is why its also easiest to understand this entire concept if you play delta
[20:24] <crimsonlink> delta is my next 2k after F91
[20:24] <Brett> since delta's entire gameplan operates around spacial influence
[20:24] <Enron> i love delta
[20:24] <Brett> and you can win with delta without actually even paying attention to landing punishes if you master this concept
[20:24] <crimsonlink> are you gonna make a thread on dust loop about space control?
[20:24] <Brett> not really
[20:24] <Enron> its great for a bad player like me
[20:24] <JKTrixer> my poor, beautiful f91
[20:25] <@haly> would be a shame tow aste all those knowledge
[20:25] <Brett> if your interested in implementing this kind of strategy, the easiest thing to do is first recognize which moves your suit has that are good at punishing exposed backsides
[20:25] <Enron> i get a lot of hits against random not-gundamgaf players with delta as they go high and try and hang in the air
[20:25] <Enron> dont even have to punish landings!
[20:25] <Brett> or what suits fulfill what roles
[20:31] <Brett> you intercept fleeing opponents with your good close range options and get hard knockdowns etc
[20:31] <@haly> when i try to approach, i often get double locked, or just run into a vernier shot
[20:31] <@haly> i assume this is just skill deficiency on my part
[20:31] <Brett> these concepts are also very hard to apply when your front player is bad at positioning, mind you.
[20:31] <Brett> since these concepts only function when you aren't being cornered
[20:32] <Brett> but the thing is, even if your front player is bad at positioning or clueless
[20:32] <Brett> 90% of players don't have an understanding of central control at all, so the following pattern is extremely common:
[20:33] <Brett> your team is cornered, your partner moves left, you move right - the opposing back player reacts by thinking that 2v1'ing your front player is a good idea, and rather than intercepting your movement, leaves a hole for you to move forward
[20:33] <Brett> if you're playing against a back player who doesn't understand the significance of positioning (extremely common), you can just randomly take the center and reverse the situation
[20:34] <lostconfused> i need to start recording some of my matches for critique
[20:34] <crimsonlink> when you say center, you mean the literal center of the map?
[20:34] <Brett> yes
[20:34] <lostconfused> yes
[20:34] <crimsonlink> so you have the most attack angles
[20:34] <lostconfused> from the center you can attack any part of the map
[20:34] <lostconfused> you dont have added distance
[20:34] <lostconfused> from one corner to another
[20:34] <crimsonlink> if you are chased/pushed away from the center what do you do?
[20:34] <Brett> this is why, given front players of equivolent strength, if your opposing back has no positioning understanding, you can just pick a suit that has positioning as its forte, like delta, fobi, prov, blue frame, etc, and just autowin consistently against them.
[20:34] <JKTrixer> kick your Front
[20:35] <JKTrixer> (don't listen to me)
[20:35] <@haly> er
[20:35] <Brett> if you dont have the center, you can do two main things
[20:35] <@haly> who is fobi
[20:35] <@haly> forbidden?
[20:35] <Brett> 1) wait for your partner to win the center
[20:35] <JKTrixer> yeah, forbidden
[20:35] <Brett> 2) wait for your opponents team to overextend and push forward, then sneak out and take it from them
[20:36] <Brett> defending against option 2 is a back players duty primarily, so if the opposing back player is not doing this well, you aim for this hole.
[20:36] <@haly> "overextend", in this case, means breaking formation right?
[20:36] <Brett> it means when the front and back players drive forward
[20:36] <lostconfused> no
[20:37] <lostconfused> moving too far forward
[20:37] <lostconfused> runing out of boost
[20:37] <Brett> something people will do because they want to kill you Kappa
[20:37] <lostconfused> bad landing
[20:37] <@haly> what's the difference between that and "pushing out" as you said before?
[20:37] <lostconfused> over comitting, doing something dumb
[20:37] <Brett> the difference is how safe you are as you are moving forward, or where the back player is, mainly
[20:37] <Brett> overextending is usually due to the back player moving up with his partner to appear more like double front
[20:38] <Brett> its something common when they have an opponent cornered in order to pin them down
[20:38] <crimsonlink> ah
[20:38] <@haly> and this leaves the back open for you to take even if you're cut off from your partner
[20:38] <crimsonlink> me and starwind did that last night a lot
[20:38] <Brett> @haly: yes
[20:38] <@haly> *center
[20:38] <@haly> i see
[20:38] <crimsonlink> well mostly since I moved up too fast
[20:39] <Brett> this entire discussion generally also makes a lot of sense for discussing 2.5ks strengths as a class
[20:39] <Brett> since they're able to fight against 2ks in the center with ease, put a lot of pressure overall
[20:39] <crimsonlink> hmm what about double 3k and 2k?
[20:39] <Brett> and generally are a bit more loose with positioning confines
[20:39] <Brett> well
[20:39] <Brett> double 2k is just bad
[20:39] <lostconfused> you say that, but 2.5k has more unique suits in my opinion
[20:39] <JKTrixer> these things don't happen in a Real Match
[20:39] <crimsonlink> lol
[20:39] <lostconfused> which are pigeon holded into their roles