writing logs

<Antioch> Hey, Bow.
<Antioch> Mulling over the possibility of making this channel voice-only, w.r.t. voicing people who have work up in the topic document for discussion/critique.
<Antioch> Thoughts?
<Cyrix> Why would you want to do that Antioch? :o
<Cyrix> I mean - its kinda hard to get critique if you shut out most people would could give critique?
<storryeater> it also kind of makes it harder to access for new people
<storryeater> or people who have yet to write stuff, but may want advice for starting
<abyssonym> I can see the merit and developing a more rigorous & intimate "writing club" but I think that fills a different niche than this channel does
<abyssonym> and the discussion that occurs here would quickly be diverted to another channel anyway
<Faustus|Kaspar> Hmm, I don't know, submitting some work isn't a very high mark to hit
<abyssonym> any barrier to entry is going to drive people away
<Faustus|Kaspar> Is that the point of this channel?
<storryeater> no, but most people who want critique are gonna fret a lot about submitting something good rather than submitting anything
<Faustus|Kaspar> I think Antioch is just discussing having the critique be more focused to avoid off-topic discussion
<abyssonym> sure
<abyssonym> it strikes me as an overreaction to what I perceive as the first real surge of activity in this channel in all the time I've been here, though
<Faustus|Kaspar> Which I would support actually, it's pretty low as a bar and it ensures that we're not talking about things unrelated to writing.
<storryeater> it also could be solved by way less drastic means, if that is the problem
<Faustus|Kaspar> This isn't drastic at all.
<Faustus|Kaspar> Also, some credit has to go to the fact that Anti is one of the people managing this channel
<VereorNox> calling it drastic seems a bit melodramatic
<Faustus|Kaspar> If he thinks it's a problem, I'm willing to trust his judgment.
<storryeater> true
<abyssonym> ???
<Faustus|Kaspar> ...
<VereorNox> calling it drastic seems a bit melodramatic
<storryeater> he is the manager, and I won't contest his decision
<abyssonym> Naturally, no one is questioning his authority
<abyssonym> but I don't adopt the opinions of people in positions of authority merely because they have authority
<storryeater> I will, however, say why I disagree with it if it comes up
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<Faustus|Kaspar> I don't think it would be as much of a change as you're guessing, if you've got nothing to contribute as a work I don't think your advice is that valid anyway. And just PMing Antioc to voice you so you can ask for criticism isn't hard.
<storryeater> for one, lets use a personal reason: I want to write something, but my big obstacle is apprehension on how it will be received. Making me unable to communicate before submitting it would drive my apprehension to the roof. I want to imagine its the same for others and that I am not insane.
<abyssonym> I stand by everything I've said so far, including where I said that it isn't an altogether terrible idea
<Faustus|Kaspar> PM someone who can voice you. It's easy.
<abyssonym> Yes, but like I said before, any barrier to entry is going to drive people away.
<abyssonym> Even trivial ones
<Faustus|Kaspar> Is that the point of the channel?
<storryeater> for another, writers themselves can get off topic
<Faustus|Kaspar> I don't think it is. Writing seems to focus on criticism, advice, and feedback.
<storryeater> the point, I thought, was for the channel to be a calm and accepting place for new writers
<abyssonym> Yeah I can see that different people want different things from this channel
<abyssonym> which is why it's not a bad idea
<Faustus|Kaspar> If anything, this would make the chat much calmer and more controlled
<abyssonym> I don't see why that is necessary
<Faustus|Kaspar> Okay.
<ixi> I thought this channel was already calm and controlled.
<abyssonym> yeah that's why I'm so confused
<storryeater> so that they can improve, not only writingwise, but also as far as the psychology of writing is concerned
<abyssonym> there was a lot of discussion yesterday but that's such an anomaly in this channel
<abyssonym> or this morning, rather
<storryeater> the second is needed for people who feel too apprehensive to write. For them, it would be a high bar
<Faustus|Kaspar> This channel doesn't need to always have discussion in it
<abyssonym> And like, a completely dead chat is very calm and controlled... but that's not exactly a good thing
* Faustus|Kaspar shrugs
<Faustus|Kaspar> If asking permission is too high of a barrier for you to overcome, maybe you should got to #Fanfic or something
<abyssonym> Like I said, the discussion would quickly be diverted to a different channel
<storryeater> as a third, discussing writing ideas and their validity instead of just submitted work can help young and unexperienced writers
<abyssonym> but not #fanfic becuase it would be off-topic there
<ixi> My main qualm with such a measure is... why? I mean, take the current list of member works - out of those, who has talked in this chat in the previous month or two? Have their works been read and discussed? It feels like the measure is simply just adding extra steps to talking, than really adding anything of value.
<Rhet> There's a difference between "hey writers, critique my work" and "hey everyone, critique my work"
<abyssonym> the channel would probably just fracture into #seriouswriters and #writingtopics
<Faustus|Kaspar> I agree with Rhet
<Faustus|Kaspar> A split might actually be good
<storryeater> good critics are not nexessarily good writers
<Cyrix> I do not think it was the intention of this channel to be a writers only channel, no?
<Saff|GM> I’d be all for a serious focus tbh
<Faustus|Kaspar> I wouldn't trust a bad writer's critique
<Saff|GM> It’s called writing.
<abyssonym> yeah I think a lot of writers would appreciate feedback from considerate non-writers
<Saff|GM> It’s in the name
<Saff|GM> Writing
<Cyrix> Yes. Thank you for telling me. I might not have been able to read otherwise.
<Saff|GM> I’m all for the voice only. Keeps discussions on topic.
<Faustus|Kaspar> Tragic
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<Faustus|Kaspar> Illiteracy is a large problem Cyrix
<Faustus|Kaspar> I can link you some resources
<Cyrix> yeah.
<Cyrix> thanks?
<Faustus|Kaspar> You can get through this
<Faustus|Kaspar> I believe in you
<Saff|GM> I mean that’s what I assumed.
<ixi> Splitting the channel feels like it's just breaking up the community even further, making them tinier and more dead.
<storryeater> "writing" can mean different things, but even if it is for a writing circle
<storryeater> which is my assumption
<storryeater> and was since I came here
<abyssonym> yeah writing circles are great and I don't think it's a bad idea to create one
<storryeater> it doesn't help the apprehension of artist who still are unsure on how to art
<abyssonym> but I never saw that as the purpose of this channel as it is now
<Cyrix> Yeah, just pointing out that this channel was *intended* for everyone who does something creative (writing being the most foremost one) to be able to get crit here or talk about things
<Saff|GM> Okay. Here’s my take. There are some of us here who are more serious than others. People who are trying to really hone their writing and who want to make a career of it. And it’s really discouraging when I come in here and feel like I have to defend my novel from people who haven’t read it and are just basing things on tropes of my genre.
<Cyrix> I did specifically ask and was present (even suggested some of the channel rules) when it was invented. @saff @Faustus|Kaspar
<storryeater> nobody really bashed your novel, as far as I remember
<Cyrix> So I have no idea why you two jump down my throat when I question why you would take this channel and make it something which it was not intended to be?
<abyssonym> I think you should just take initiative and create a writing circle
<Faustus|Kaspar> I don't think a split would be bad because obviously there are some who yeah Saff|GM said it
<storryeater> I could be wrong
<Cyrix> I dont remember anyone bashing your novel saff.
<Rhet> She didn't say her novel was bashed
<Cyrix> she said she had to defend it
<Faustus|Kaspar> She did.
<Rhet> She responded to criticism based on "this one thing appears in my novel"
<Rhet> She said "I had to age my characters down"
<Rhet> and three different people told her how she could improve her novel
<Cyrix> okay. I was not here for this discussion about age
<Faustus|Kaspar> Now this has happened before where certain people don't realize they are being combative.
<Faustus|Kaspar> But it's still discouraging
<storryeater> true
<abyssonym> I was part of that discussion. If I came off as combative, I really didn't intend to.
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<storryeater> but it can be solved with a warning
<storryeater> its not like writers are immune to being combative by accident
<Antioch> This channel began as a resource for writers who were looking for assistance with workshopping and storyboarding for help on subjects such as beta reading and revisions.
<abyssonym> I offered a suggestion but I wasn't saying that Saff's decision was bad or anything, I was just curious
<Antioch> I don’t feel the bar to entry is particularly high.
<storryeater> by the way, I apologise if I was one of those people. I was mostly defending tropes I, myself, wanted to use rather that critiquing yours
<Antioch> Write something, post it in the topic linked so others can view your work, either for critique or for others to see where you’re coming from as a writer.
<Antioch> That’s not a large hurdle to clear, in my opinion.
<abyssonym> I'm not going to do that
<abyssonym> but I will join a different channel if it gets created
<Faustus|Kaspar> More power to you
<storryeater> its not if you are confident
<storryeater> if you are trying to build courage, like me
<Rhet> I guess what's confusing to me is that this channel is supposed to provide value to writers
<storryeater> it can ruin you
<Rhet> since it's called Writing
<abyssonym> I'm just pointing out that the threshold is there
<abyssonym> there are people that it will drive away
<Antioch> If you’re unconfident about your work, then it’s all the more reason to turn to others for advice.
<abyssonym> And yeah I get that that's the point
<storryeater> because its a small hurdle, but you don't want to have a small jump
<Rhet> So if you're not a writer, it's not intended to provide value to you. There are other channels for that
<abyssonym> but there's a lot fewer people who are willing to publish that you think
<Faustus|Kaspar> It's not publishing
<Rhet> If you have written something, then pm an op and say "I wrote something can I have ops please so I can post it for criticism"
<Faustus|Kaspar> It's just a sample of how you write
<Nick> How big of a thing are we talking?
<ixi> Idk, Rhet - works are going to be read more by readers than other writers, I feel a reader's opinion is very helpful.
<Antioch> And if you’re unconfident about your work, then where your criticism is coming from (without context for your lack of readable material) seems less applicable in the context of revision.
<storryeater> some amateur writers who don't feel confident at showing their work yet will be really discouraged
<Antioch> Two to three paragraphs.
<Nick> Oh, yeah
<Antioch> Just like, a synopsis of your current work, at the least.
<Rhet> ixi: right, but the readers don't lose any value
<abyssonym> It's like that old adage "don't criticize a movie until you can make one"
<Nick> I'm down for that, as a person who just removed his non-thing from the topic link
<Rhet> by not being able to speak in #writing without having written something
<abyssonym> Yeah there's merit in getting feedback from other writers
<abyssonym> but reader feedback is valuable too, particularly when it is earnest and considerate
<Nick> If I ever want to talk in the channel I can post them or write something better
<storryeater> I may be able to do that
<Antioch> A reader’s opinion is valuable, ixi.
<Antioch> An unsolicited reader’s opinion is not.
<Rhet> storryeater: To be frank, if they don't feel confident in showing anything they've written ever, then why do they need to talk in #writing?
<Cyrix> so the issue some people have is that they feel like some people in here are not qualified to talk here?
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<storryeater> oh boy, first of all, I never said "ever", secondly, art is like that sometimes Rhet
<Cyrix> to formulate it a bit more drastically?
<abyssonym> I'm absolutely not qualified, I'd never describe myself as a writer even though I aspire to write
<Rhet> They feel like the currently non-existent barrier to entry leads to too much noise and not enough signal
<Rhet> and that limiting voice to those who have written and presented something would help improve that ratio
<storryeater> also, I read the rules several times, and all criticism seems soliticized by default under the current rules
<Cyrix> I mean - we have rules in this channel? I think one of them is that if a creator says he doesnt want any more crit from you then you *have* to stop?
<storryeater> ^
<storryeater> I mean, the rules can change
<Rhet> Yes, that's literally what's being discussed
<ixi> True, Antioch, but does that mean you only want writers in here to give opinions?
<Saff|GM> i mean. I don't see why this is a problem. it's a channel for writers
<Saff|GM> if you aren't a writer, why are you here?
<abyssonym> yeah and to reiterate I don't think a writing circle is a bad idea
<Cyrix> its a channel about writing
<Cyrix> not a channel for writers
<Rhet> The point of this channel is to provide value for writers, not for pure readers
<Rhet> or so it would seem
<abyssonym> but I liked having an environment to casually talk about topics in writing without having to *be* a writer
<storryeater> as an aspiring writer
<Nick> The obvious solution seems to be a split
<storryeater> I came here to have an environment that would encourage me to write
<Nick> Make a new channel for more casual discussion
<storryeater> as well as give me some advice
<Rhet> or make a #writing-criticism
<Saff|GM> Cyrix> its a channel about writing
<Saff|GM> 4:41 PM not a channel for writers
<Saff|GM> Writers are the ones that write, Cyrix
<Rhet> or #writerscircle
<Antioch> That's reasonable, Rhet.
<Rhet> But I had thought that that was what this channel was
<Cyrix> it isnt exclusivly for writers saff
<Rhet> and that general discussion about writing could be in #para, for instance, along with other general discussion
<Antioch> There's been a lot of pushback on the idea of making more channels or subdividing them, hence why I proposed the change in the first place.
<Saff|GM> I don't understand what you are trying to argue, cryix
<Antioch> I was under the same impression, Rhet.
<Nick> I sort of thought this channel was meant to be a writer's circle thing from the start
<Antioch> ^
<Antioch> It was.
<Saff|GM> you're stating that a channel about writing is not for writers
<storryeater> knowing that I'd have to submit something would have the opposite effect for me, not ure about others
<abyssonym> Saff: you don't have to be a writer to be interested in writing, that's the crux of the issue
<Antioch> I should have logs from the channel's inception.
<Rhet> And the argument is that that lower level of interest in writing can be satisfied by the general discussion in, e.g., #parahumans, abys
<Nick> It's just, like, really big now
<Nick> so it fails to be what it was supposed to be, partially because of the size
<Antioch> This is a pretty big channel, yeah.
<Cyrix> @Saff|GM I am saying this is about writing - mostly about getting critique for something you have written. This *does not* inherently imply that you have to be a writer.
<Antioch> I don't mind splitting it off.
<Nick> but mostly because lots of us in here aren't actively writing
<Rhet> Just like we don't have a #causalvideogamediscussion and a #seriousvideogamediscussion
<storryeater> but I would understand it if other people feel different
<Rhet> Because #parahumans is the first one
<Antioch> Yes, but what's to say that someone's critique will be worthwhile, Cyrix?
<Faustus|Kaspar> A smaller, focused group could accomplish more as a writer's circle, but general reader opinion seems like a #para thing.
<Cyrix> @Saff|GM Furthermore it isnt for writers *only* but also for people who create other stuff. like drawings etc.