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  1. [17:28:13] @cbrevan: heres our established threatlist: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-22-part-3-threats-discussion.3576526/page-3#post-6895593
  2. [17:28:34] +Snobalt: Yeah heal I need access to it too
  3. [17:28:46] boxofkangaroos: You have to go into Share and click Get Shareable Link
  4. [17:28:55] boxofkangaroos: Then that makes it accessible to everyone via link
  5. [17:29:27] #HeaLnDeaL: try this link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7enqoNCPMqqWmtRdUJhZFpzZEk/view?usp=sharing
  6. [17:29:38] boxofkangaroos: That works
  7. [17:29:44] Wyvern Lord Beruka: much better
  8. [17:29:48] @cbrevan: there we go
  9. [17:29:52] JDragon6299: what's all this for?
  10. [17:30:08] boxofkangaroos: CAP 22 Stat Limits
  11. [17:31:20] Animaignis: Do you guys think that CAP22 should have enough physical attack to deal significant damage to Colo and Chansey?
  12. [17:31:27] Animaignis: Like say, a mixed set?
  13. [17:31:31] @cbrevan: /announce we're starting the cap 22 stat limits discussion right now
  14. [17:31:36] Animaignis: ik
  15. [17:31:44] Animaignis: Thats why I'm asking around.
  16. [17:31:54] @cbrevan: /announce for the next two hours please keep this chat solely about cap 22
  17. [17:32:01] Natu worry: how should we start?
  18. [17:32:02] @cbrevan: /announce thank you
  19. [17:32:25] +Snobalt: I had some preliminary questions in PM but lost them. CB can post them if he wants
  20. [17:32:32] Agile Turtle: imo we shouldn't limit ourselves to physical or special
  21. [17:32:36] Wyvern Lord Beruka: Looking at speed stats, I'm seeing the CAP fit between 86-131 in terms of speed. The minimum puts us above Tomohawk (As that think can kill us if it is fast enough) whilst the higher puts us above stratagem
  22. [17:32:37] %Ria: Can someone save a log of the chat for the next two hours?
  23. [17:32:38] Animaignis: I assume cb starts with a summary-ish thing and some qs?
  24. [17:32:41] @cbrevan: Considering what we want to be able to use Parting Shot against, should we aim to do so on the switch-in or one-one one? What effect does each one have on our potential tankiness ratings?
  25. [17:32:48] NotRapNotHipHop: hmm
  26. [17:32:48] @cbrevan: How much sweepiness do we need to force the opponent into mind games? That is to say, stay in and risk eating an attack, or bail and have the switch-in get nailed by Parting Shot.
  27. [17:32:49] Animaignis: Ria I gotcha
  28. [17:32:51] NumberCruncher: Agreed, most of the big utility leads of the past have been mixed
  29. [17:32:59] NumberCruncher: *utility pivots
  30. [17:33:04] Rool821: true
  31. [17:33:11] Rool821: good wllbreaking to
  32. [17:33:36] Animaignis: I think we first of all need to be able to make Colo think twice about switching in, because of rebound.
  33. [17:33:38] Agile Turtle: who said anything about eading with this
  34. [17:33:42] Agile Turtle: leading*
  35. [17:33:53] NumberCruncher: We aren't. I mistyped
  36. [17:34:12] Animaignis: So probably you would use parting shot when anticipating a sweeper switching in, or during a one on one against a hard hitter.
  37. [17:34:15] NumberCruncher: Hence why I corrected myseld
  38. [17:34:19] Natu worry: So do we want a slower and bulkier pivot or a faster mon? has this been established?
  39. [17:34:23] +Snobalt: Ass vest colo is still quite common as well. On the other hand, several of the passive pokemon we want to threaten are specially frail as well
  40. [17:34:26] +Snobalt: Natu worry a faster one
  41. [17:34:31] Wyvern Lord Beruka: It was establish to be a faster one
  42. [17:34:32] Natu worry: ah
  43. [17:35:05] Rool821: I believe we can go mixed
  44. [17:35:17] Rool821: it compliments both typings
  45. [17:35:23] Animaignis: Faster was definetly established, speed will probably be over 105. Can't guarantee anything of course.
  46. [17:35:29] Animaignis: I agree with Rool on this.
  47. [17:35:52] Natu worry: definitely above 108! to outspeed keldeo
  48. [17:36:04] Rool821: i am thinking as a posiblity to out speed straya
  49. [17:36:07] Rool821: *strata
  50. [17:36:09] +Snobalt: Looking at the threats list, I personally feel that special sweepiness should be prioritized. A mixed set sounds viable but we obviously don't want to break this mon
  51. [17:36:26] +Snobalt: Rool821 keep in mind Strata doesn't threaten us on typing
  52. [17:36:31] Rool821: as it can set up and sweep w its mmense speed
  53. [17:36:32] Wyvern Lord Beruka: The bare min we can really go is 86. the we beat tmohawk
  54. [17:36:35] Natu worry: I agree special is more appealing
  55. [17:36:37] Animaignis: The speed tier I have been looking at is 119 or 120. This outspeeds Cawm while also keeping BST low and ieing or being beaten by Alak
  56. [17:36:46] Natu worry: I like that
  57. [17:36:49] temperarious: how often does stratagem set up and sweep
  58. [17:36:50] Animaignis: tie-ing*
  59. [17:36:51] NumberCruncher: We probably want to go higher for Latios
  60. [17:36:54] temperarious: not very often
  61. [17:36:54] +Snobalt: That's a moot point when +6 bullet punch is probably an OHKO
  62. [17:36:55] boxofkangaroos: Regarding cb's second question, I think the amount of sweepiness to force mind games really depends on the opposing Pokemon
  63. [17:36:58] @cbrevan: very rarely temp
  64. [17:37:29] Wyvern Lord Beruka: Cawmodor usually uses bullet punch as its STAB steel move, which is priority, which we should be threatened by
  65. [17:37:48] Rool821: maybye pull a tangela?
  66. [17:37:53] +Snobalt: One-on-one, yes, but whether we want it to switch into us is another story
  67. [17:37:58] Rool821: but less bulk
  68. [17:37:58] Animaignis: Quick question for CB: Priority should threaten us, but is Cawm included in that?
  69. [17:38:16] temperarious: depends
  70. [17:38:16] Agile Turtle: [17:32:42] +Snobalt: That's a moot point when +6 bullet punch is probably an OHKO
  71. [17:38:20] temperarious: after of before a drum
  72. [17:38:23] Agile Turtle: actually it's not a moot point
  73. [17:38:26] NumberCruncher: I've been looking at 122 so we can Parting against Torn, given that' we're supposed to Parting against our non-Scarfed counters, and we actually just lose to Torn if we don't, which is a problem when CAP and Torn compete for a similar slot.
  74. [17:38:28] Agile Turtle: at 120 speed
  75. [17:38:30] Animaignis: But heres the thing: You now know they will use Bullet Punch.
  76. [17:38:35] Natu worry: I think it should have a higher spatk stat but a usable atk stat
  77. [17:38:36] @cbrevan: no, cawmodore is not intended as part of the priority section of checks and counters
  78. [17:38:38] Animaignis: So you can swap into Mollux or Kraken.
  79. [17:38:43] @cbrevan: at least not unboosted
  80. [17:38:46] +Snobalt: Actually yeah
  81. [17:38:52] Animaignis: So this gives you another chance to swap into a cawm counter past the BD
  82. [17:38:58] +Snobalt: Ideally we do have ways to get around it before it sets up
  83. [17:39:01] Alfalfa: Alright
  84. [17:39:11] Alfalfa: Alright
  85. [17:39:12] Animaignis: But it is definetly a loss in 1v1 against cawm.
  86. [17:39:16] Alfalfa: Where are we in the discussion
  87. [17:39:24] Wyvern Lord Beruka: If you look at the wording for steel types, it says we should threaten the slower ones. but cawm is fast
  88. [17:39:31] +Snobalt: It's a moot point if we intend to go against a +6 cawm, is what I was trying to say
  89. [17:39:32] Agile Turtle: if caw switches in, hsasn't set up yet, it has the choice of setting up or bullet punching to hurt cap, or switch out, no matter what it does, the CAP 22 user has the momentum here
  90. [17:39:44] boxofkangaroos: Should we be 2HKOed or 3HKOed by Cawmodore's Bullet Punch?
  91. [17:39:55] temperarious: 3 is ideal
  92. [17:39:57] Alfalfa: In terms of speed, I think that Weavile should be the highest target we should consider outspeeding
  93. [17:40:00] Animaignis: I think along Number's point, I think we should discuss if we want to be faster than Torn-T or not.
  94. [17:40:06] temperarious: 4 is stretching it a lot
  95. [17:40:13] Agile Turtle: if it is already set up, yeah it doesn't really matter, whether drill peck/acro or bullet ounch hits it, it's dying anyway
  96. [17:40:17] Rool821: i feel like def bulk if any
  97. [17:40:17] Natu worry: NumberCruncher I love the idea of outpacing torn bit that also means we outspeed practically the entire unboosted metagame (with niche exceptions)
  98. [17:40:20] boxofkangaroos: Alfalfa, I agree.
  99. [17:40:34] Agile Turtle: but a caw that hasn't set up yet shouldn't be ignored
  100. [17:40:41] Rool821: but keep in mind assault vest cant be uses with parting shot
  101. [17:40:48] Natu worry: ^
  102. [17:40:51] Rool821: i feel we should keep that in mind
  103. [17:40:53] Alfalfa: Why are we discussing Assault Vest
  104. [17:41:01] Animaignis: I think perhaps we should be outsped or at least tie with Torn-T and mega Pidge because otherwise we feel too fast in the relevant meta.
  105. [17:41:01] Rool821: it is a pivot
  106. [17:41:09] Alfalfa: Life Orb is the only practical item we should consider
  107. [17:41:11] Alfalfa: So you know
  108. [17:41:14] Animaignis: I agree
  109. [17:41:17] Alfalfa: We can actually threaten passive mons
  110. [17:41:31] Rool821: there are other options
  111. [17:41:32] +Snobalt: Torn-T is an interesting case
  112. [17:41:42] NumberCruncher: Band could be another option to threaten passives
  113. [17:41:42] Natu worry: or specs could be pretty cool
  114. [17:41:44] Alfalfa: We want to actually threaten passive mons
  115. [17:41:50] Animaignis: Likewise, Alakazam is a similar situation.
  116. [17:41:58] Rool821: i hope it doesnt start runnign sludge wave
  117. [17:42:00] Animaignis: Both aren't on out threatlist.
  118. [17:42:02] Agile Turtle: I've liked 112 speed for thundy, and 120 speed to outpace Caw but still be outsped by pidge and torn t so they can be used as checks
  119. [17:42:20] Animaignis: Do we want to be able to be revenged by either Alakazam or Torn-T?
  120. [17:42:28] Alfalfa: I want base 126 speed specifically for Weavile
  121. [17:42:34] Alfalfa: Weavile is a mon we check
  122. [17:42:55] Rool821: indeed
  123. [17:42:59] @cbrevan: honestly i wouldn't be too worried about regular alakazam
  124. [17:42:59] Animaignis: I think Weavile is stretching the stat a bit however.
  125. [17:42:59] Alfalfa: And the only checks that are screwed over are LO TornT
  126. [17:43:10] Natu worry: I'm afraid if we make it too fast we turn this into a revenge killer
  127. [17:43:13] Rool821: i assume it will get stab
  128. [17:43:16] Agile Turtle: I feel like we should, so in my sub I'm going slower than pidge and torn, but it's really up to the submitters where they put their speeds
  129. [17:43:17] Alfalfa: Animaignis
  130. [17:43:22] Animaignis: I agree with Natu
  131. [17:43:27] +Snobalt: Torn-T is pretty unaffected by Parting Shot, so it's probably something we'd want to go after
  132. [17:43:27] Alfalfa: We are still outspeed by some mega mons
  133. [17:43:28] Rool821: Natu worry it can be
  134. [17:43:32] Rool821: then part out
  135. [17:43:48] Alfalfa: Did we discuss a consensus on any other stat yet
  136. [17:43:53] NumberCruncher: Torn is competing for the fast utility spot we're trying to get CAP to occupy, and that's going to be harder to justify that spot over Torn if it just loses to other Torn users
  137. [17:44:01] Rool821: nothing wrong w being able to revenge some mons
  138. [17:44:05] Rool821: it is a support
  139. [17:44:06] +Snobalt: It seems we've already sealed our fate against Thundurus thanks to Natural Cure, so no longer baiting in Flying-types doesn't seem like a huge issue
  140. [17:44:12] Natu worry: but the concept was momentum we don't want it to be a hit and run mon
  141. [17:44:18] Agile Turtle: I like higher physical tankiness because priority is a bitch, personally
  142. [17:44:23] Alfalfa: Agreed
  143. [17:44:24] Alfalfa: But
  144. [17:44:27] Rool821: agreeded
  145. [17:44:37] Alfalfa: Defog Mega Scizor should be able to 2HKO with Bullet Punch without investment
  146. [17:44:39] NumberCruncher: Technically we didn't specify that CAP had to be a momentum mon
  147. [17:44:42] Rool821: vacum wave is rare unless strata gem
  148. [17:44:46] Rool821: and we res that
  149. [17:44:48] @cbrevan: keep in mind priority users are listed as pokemon we want to be able to check us
  150. [17:44:52] Natu worry: it should be fast! but we should not go overboard
  151. [17:45:01] Animaignis: I think that offensive mega scizor should OHKO.
  152. [17:45:08] Animaignis: But defensive shouldn't.
  153. [17:45:12] Rool821: fair
  154. [17:45:16] Alfalfa: Most priority users already threaten us
  155. [17:45:20] boxofkangaroos: Alfalfa, is this assuming no attack investment on the Mega Seizor?
  156. [17:45:20] Alfalfa: Except for Weavile
  157. [17:45:23] boxofkangaroos: Scizor*
  158. [17:45:25] Alfalfa: Correct
  159. [17:45:30] Alfalfa: 0 Atk Mega Scizor
  160. [17:45:32] Natu worry: nah thats unnecessary its not like we're doing much to scizor anyway
  161. [17:45:38] Agile Turtle: nah snoball, it doesn't matter, even if we had wonder skin to help avoid those twaves and taunts, thundy does a hell of a lot of damage with tbolt
  162. [17:45:42] Rool821: colo does not threaten
  163. [17:46:05] NumberCruncher: Depends on how much attack we give it if Colo threatens
  164. [17:46:05] +Snobalt: if we're specially frail then yeah
  165. [17:46:06] boxofkangaroos: Does anyone have a link to a CAP damage calculator?
  166. [17:46:12] Alfalfa: Specifically, in terms of benchmarks, I want the following:
  167. [17:46:12] Animaignis: So anyways, do we want to OHKO Colossoil? Sure it depends a bit on the BP of our STABs, but that dictates a bit on if we are special, physical, or mixed.
  168. [17:46:17] Agile Turtle: not even specially frail
  169. [17:46:18] Airwind: ./calc
  170. [17:46:25] Alfalfa: *Defog Mega SCizor always 2HKOs with Bullet Punch
  171. [17:46:35] Animaignis: Colossoil will 2HKO most spreads, I can tell you that already. i researched earlier today.
  172. [17:46:38] Alfalfa: *Mixed defensive Hippowdon is 2HKOd with Moonblast
  173. [17:46:38] Agile Turtle: just average special bulk
  174. [17:46:43] Alfalfa: *AV Torn-T OHKOs with Hurricane
  175. [17:46:45] Natu worry: we need a cubic shitton of spatk to Ohko AV
  176. [17:46:47] Alfalfa: *Weavile is outspeed
  177. [17:46:48] Rool821: i feel it should have somewhere between 121 and 130
  178. [17:46:50] +Snobalt: Probably a 2HKO i think
  179. [17:46:51] Rool821: in speed
  180. [17:46:59] @cbrevan: a 2hko on colossoil is reasonable
  181. [17:47:04] Natu worry: ye
  182. [17:47:09] Rool821: i agree cbrevan
  183. [17:47:11] @cbrevan: we'll most likely be faster so we'd win in a 1v1
  184. [17:47:12] NumberCruncher: Definitely less than 130. I don't think outspeeding Stratagem is a good plan
  185. [17:47:16] Animaignis: Do we want Chansey to wall us, on a similar note?
  186. [17:47:17] Wyvern Lord Beruka: Rool821, 131 gets us the jump on stratagem
  187. [17:47:27] Alfalfa: No
  188. [17:47:28] boxofkangaroos: The jump on Stratagem is irrelevant
  189. [17:47:28] Rool821: to much
  190. [17:47:38] Wyvern Lord Beruka: Animaignis, no, that is one of our to-threaten
  191. [17:47:38] @cbrevan: and that would be enough to discourage it switching into parting shot
  192. [17:47:40] Agile Turtle: colo is easily dealt with by close combat
  193. [17:47:40] Natu worry: Animaignis it should have a usable atk I think
  194. [17:47:56] Alfalfa: Agile Turtle
  195. [17:47:56] Agile Turtle: imo attack should be higher than SpA
  196. [17:47:57] Animaignis: So then we need at least Mixed probably.
  197. [17:47:57] Alfalfa: I disagree
  198. [17:48:01] Alfalfa: Our CAP should be special
  199. [17:48:02] +Snobalt: Chansey too
  200. [17:48:04] Alfalfa: Avoids Intimidate
  201. [17:48:09] Natu worry: spatk>atk
  202. [17:48:09] Alfalfa: Rough Skin Iron Barbs
  203. [17:48:10] NumberCruncher: We're probably looking at a Greninja-ish sort of spread
  204. [17:48:12] Alfalfa: Plus
  205. [17:48:19] Agile Turtle: why is intimidate relevant
  206. [17:48:19] Rool821: fair
  207. [17:48:21] Alfalfa: We threaten Hippo and Skarm more with Special attacks
  208. [17:48:30] Alfalfa: We want to threaten SKarm
  209. [17:48:34] Alfalfa: Not be walled by it
  210. [17:48:38] Animaignis: So then Mixed is a pretty set choice?
  211. [17:48:42] Alfalfa: No
  212. [17:48:42] Wyvern Lord Beruka: I feel that, if it is mainly for parting shot, I feel the offensives are not the aim for the CAP. We do want it to punch some holes in some victims, but not OHKO everything. No-one said teh CAP has to threaten everything with an OHKO
  213. [17:48:47] boxofkangaroos: Don't we want to threaten Chansey too though?
  214. [17:48:47] Alfalfa: Mixed isn't necessary
  215. [17:48:54] Natu worry: mixed with an emphasis on spatk imo
  216. [17:48:55] Agile Turtle: we also want to threaten chnsey, not be walled by it
  217. [17:48:58] Animaignis: I mean, if we want to threaten both Hippo and Chansey, that will be tough.
  218. [17:49:01] Rool821: boxofkangaroos yes
  219. [17:49:01] Alfalfa: ...
  220. [17:49:09] @cbrevan: we don't have to ohko chansey to threat it
  221. [17:49:10] Alfalfa: If we want to threaten Chansey
  222. [17:49:10] Rool821: if were mixed
  223. [17:49:14] Rool821: and get some coverage
  224. [17:49:19] Animaignis: True enough CB
  225. [17:49:19] Alfalfa: Are we willing to tank both of our defenses?
  226. [17:49:20] +Snobalt: Alfalfa perhaps explain why physical attacks aren't necessary?
  227. [17:49:22] JDragon6299: Are we making the stat decisions for the new CAP?
  228. [17:49:29] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  229. [17:49:29] Agile Turtle: we only need like 90 SpA
  230. [17:49:29] Rool821: i imagine the primary set being daul stab coverage and part
  231. [17:49:31] Alfalfa: Answer my question first
  232. [17:49:36] +Snobalt: what question
  233. [17:49:37] +Snobalt: oh
  234. [17:49:48] #HeaLnDeaL: we have having a stat limits discussion, jd
  235. [17:49:49] Natu worry: I like the idea of specs on this mon!
  236. [17:49:50] Animaignis: I think that we don't need to sacrifice both. It just requires some thoughtful statting.
  237. [17:49:50] Agile Turtle: imo ~105 attack ~90 SpA is fine
  238. [17:49:52] Rool821: JDragon6299 yes
  239. [17:50:02] Alfalfa: I think 126 Special Attack is necessary
  240. [17:50:03] NumberCruncher: I'd actually flip the opposite way
  241. [17:50:13] Alfalfa: ALways 2HKOs mixed defensive Hippowdon
  242. [17:50:16] Natu worry: yeah it needs a high spatk
  243. [17:50:20] #HeaLnDeaL: we're not explicitly making decisions, just having a discussion to help decisions later
  244. [17:50:20] boxofkangaroos: Okay. I don't think we need to threaten Chansey by OHKOing it, but Chansey should not be a consistent switch-in to this mon.
  245. [17:50:27] NumberCruncher: something like 95 ATK and 105 Sp Atk
  246. [17:50:29] Agile Turtle: that is overkill
  247. [17:50:40] Rool821: NumberCruncher i like thay
  248. [17:50:42] Rool821: *that
  249. [17:50:45] +Snobalt: Not necessarily
  250. [17:50:47] Animaignis: Do we want dominately special or physical attack is a key question.
  251. [17:50:48] Alfalfa: We also
  252. [17:50:48] NumberCruncher: Our Physical STAB hits way harder than our Special STAB
  253. [17:50:49] Agile Turtle: If you go that high you're just making a glass cannon
  254. [17:50:50] @cbrevan: i think we should be specially biased
  255. [17:50:54] Alfalfa: Want to do at least 75% to CHansey
  256. [17:51:10] Alfalfa: That always 2HKOs if Chansey Softboileds
  257. [17:51:11] +Snobalt: Yeah I think we can conclude that special sweepiness will be heavily prioritized
  258. [17:51:13] NumberCruncher: Not really, we 4x resist everything we resist
  259. [17:51:16] @cbrevan: if you look at what we want to threaten a lot of the pokemon are a lot more physically defensive than specially defensive
  260. [17:51:17] Animaignis: To deal more significant damage overall, we could go Physical since fighting has some absurd BP STABs.
  261. [17:51:21] Natu worry: how about this: it should 2hko chansey after rocks and a spike with specs aura sphere!
  262. [17:51:27] @cbrevan: garchomp, cyclohm, bisharp, tomohawk, etc
  263. [17:51:32] Alfalfa: Specs is bad with Parting Shot
  264. [17:51:33] boxofkangaroos: Alfalfa, realistically that means we need to have an alright Physical Attack stat
  265. [17:51:39] +Snobalt: What Alfalfa said
  266. [17:51:44] Alfalfa: If we want to threaten Chansey
  267. [17:51:50] Alfalfa: We will need attack
  268. [17:52:00] Agile Turtle: physical bias is more reliable
  269. [17:52:03] Alfalfa: But
  270. [17:52:16] Alfalfa: I think that either special or mixed are the only viable options offensively
  271. [17:52:22] boxofkangaroos: So... mixed?
  272. [17:52:26] Animaignis: So really our options are frail mixed, or bulkier SpA
  273. [17:52:30] NumberCruncher: So we can just get walled and OHKO'd by Tomohawk?
  274. [17:52:31] +Snobalt: That much we know
  275. [17:52:38] Rool821: mixed
  276. [17:52:44] Agile Turtle: tomo does not wall
  277. [17:52:46] Agile Turtle: lol
  278. [17:52:50] temperarious: if only secret sword..
  279. [17:52:50] boxofkangaroos: If we want to do 75% to Chansey, it's gonna be either physical or mixed, and I don't think people want it to be physical.
  280. [17:52:50] +Snobalt: Maybe not Animaignis, we don't use the build triangle anymore
  281. [17:52:54] Animaignis: True enough
  282. [17:52:59] @cbrevan: for those wanting physically biased over specially biased, is the main part of your reasoning that we want to directly threaten chansey?
  283. [17:53:03] Alfalfa: I have our offensive stats
  284. [17:53:04] NumberCruncher: Even with a ton of investment and high stats, we don't OHKo with Play Rough
  285. [17:53:07] Natu worry: special sounds allot better
  286. [17:53:08] Alfalfa: If we want to go mixed
  287. [17:53:08] Agile Turtle: no cb
  288. [17:53:12] #HeaLnDeaL: needing to do 75% to chansey is a bit high
  289. [17:53:20] +Snobalt: Because you wouldn't use a Fighting-type move on Chansey...?
  290. [17:53:24] #HeaLnDeaL: keep in mind chansey does not even get leftovers recovery
  291. [17:53:26] Alfalfa: We run 110 Atk / 126 SpA
  292. [17:53:26] Agile Turtle: that's a part, sure, but it's also that Focus Blast is poopy butt
  293. [17:53:29] NumberCruncher: Probably only need to do 60%
  294. [17:53:31] Alfalfa: HealnDeal
  295. [17:53:34] Alfalfa: One on one
  296. [17:53:42] Rool821: Alfalfa i like it
  297. [17:53:44] Alfalfa: 75% always 2HKOs CHansey after Softboiled
  298. [17:53:52] @cbrevan: aura sphere is also an option as far as special fighting stabs go
  299. [17:53:52] Animaignis: I think we need to make sure we do over 50% on chansey for sure. maybe not 75%.
  300. [17:53:52] Rool821: but it may be to high
  301. [17:53:57] Alfalfa: And 110 base attack guarantees that without attack investment
  302. [17:53:58] NumberCruncher: That seems ridiculouxsly high
  303. [17:54:00] Natu worry: I like that!
  304. [17:54:04] Agile Turtle: aura sphere is only 80 bp
  305. [17:54:12] NumberCruncher: especially since we're talking speeds in the triple digits
  306. [17:54:12] #HeaLnDeaL: Alfalfa, we don't need to ko it in two clean hits if we can force it to be passive and get it in 4 or 5
  307. [17:54:21] boxofkangaroos: 110 / 126 / 126 offenses seems like overkill. Maybe a 3HKO against Soft-Boiled Chansey would be better?
  308. [17:54:24] Alfalfa: Life orb
  309. [17:54:27] Alfalfa: HealnDeal
  310. [17:54:31] boxofkangaroos: so 66% against it?
  311. [17:54:32] Alfalfa: We need Life Orb to do such
  312. [17:54:33] +Snobalt: boxofkangaroos that wouldn't do anything really
  313. [17:54:42] +Snobalt: It uses softboiled and walls us
  314. [17:54:46] #HeaLnDeaL: life orb should be an option, but not mandatory
  315. [17:54:53] Animaignis: 109 attack with LO can get a guaranteed OHKO on Colo using Superpower/Close Combat, for reference.
  316. [17:55:02] Rool821: cbrevan ik it maybye spaand pychical stabs ik we arent doing movepool yet
  317. [17:55:02] Agile Turtle: this thing imo shouldn't be so aggressive
  318. [17:55:13] Agile Turtle: it should be at least kinda bulky
  319. [17:55:14] Rool821: it needs not be
  320. [17:55:22] Alfalfa: I think we are having too many conflicting desires here
  321. [17:55:24] Rool821: it is a fps
  322. [17:55:25] NumberCruncher: We don't need to OHKO Colossoil, since we 4x resist the punch
  323. [17:55:26] Alfalfa: Let's get this straight
  324. [17:55:30] boxofkangaroos: Snobalt, if we do between 67% and 74% to Chansey, that's not really "walling"
  325. [17:55:38] Animaignis: Like I said, Colossoil AV can 2HKO us with EQ unless we have massive defensive investment.
  326. [17:55:43] Animaignis: And I mean CYclohm big.
  327. [17:55:43] +Snobalt: I meant if we go special only, it walls us
  328. [17:55:55] Alfalfa: What is more important: threaten fat mons, or offense + defense?
  329. [17:56:11] Rool821: we should go mixed so nothing walls us
  330. [17:56:14] Alfalfa: Personally, I think threatening fat mons is more important, as long as we can keep one defensive stat
  331. [17:56:15] NumberCruncher: So we just don't switch in on Colo. That's not an insane problem. Even Torn doesn't switch in to Colo.
  332. [17:56:20] Rool821: and have a greninja like spread
  333. [17:56:25] Natu worry: it should be able to threaten stuff out but yeah we don't want to make this an offensive juggernaut idk
  334. [17:56:43] boxofkangaroos: Threaten fat mons, since that was a major part of the what CAP is supposed to do (in addition to Parting Shot)
  335. [17:56:48] Animaignis: I think we need to threaten fat pokemon more.
  336. [17:56:55] Alfalfa: Let's compromise
  337. [17:56:56] Agile Turtle: v
  338. [17:56:57] +Snobalt: It doesn't take much SpA to 2HKO AV soil
  339. [17:57:05] NumberCruncher: Why do we need a bunch of bulk? We 4x resist everything we're likely to switch in on.
  340. [17:57:06] @cbrevan: ideally we should be able to threaten out pokemon that are weak to our stab moves
  341. [17:57:14] Animaignis: I agree with Crunchr.
  342. [17:57:20] Rage.Spam.Quit.: So should we be able to 2HKO what we threaten or ohko with life orb?
  343. [17:57:21] Alfalfa: 110 Attack (Chansey) / 126 Special Attack (Hippo) / enough speed for Scarf Tar
  344. [17:57:22] @cbrevan: while still being able to apply some pressure to neutral pokemon
  345. [17:57:30] Alfalfa: Does that seem fair?
  346. [17:57:37] Natu worry: yeah nb
  347. [17:57:45] NumberCruncher: We could just give it a status to scary Hippo
  348. [17:57:45] Animaignis: 126 2 or 1 shots
  349. [17:57:54] Rool821: cbrevan and still part out on offensive ones
  350. [17:57:59] NumberCruncher: We are a utility mon
  351. [17:58:03] boxofkangaroos: NumberCruncher, we can also switch in on stuff like Ttar, which might not be using Crunch
  352. [17:58:29] Alfalfa: Basically, I want 110 Attack / 126 Special Attack / 117 Speed
  353. [17:58:36] #HeaLnDeaL: can we not
  354. [17:58:40] Rool821: a bit to much?
  355. [17:58:42] Agile Turtle: *sigh* this would not be such a big deal if we could decide rigth now whether this thing could get taunt
  356. [17:58:50] NumberCruncher: Tar's standard set is Crunch, Super Power, Stone Edge and Pursuit if it's not defensive
  357. [17:58:51] #HeaLnDeaL: this is stat limits discussion
  358. [17:58:53] Agile Turtle: but at this stage we can't assume either way
  359. [17:58:53] +Snobalt: Taking another look at the threatlist, are Chansey and (to a lesser extent) Colo that problematic that it warrants going mixed?
  360. [17:59:01] #HeaLnDeaL: not a "go ahead and submit your stat spread" discussion
  361. [17:59:02] boxofkangaroos: Yeah so we resists everything
  362. [17:59:03] @cbrevan: also keep in mind
  363. [17:59:12] Natu worry: lol we certainly don't look like a utility mon but I guess this is necessary?
  364. [17:59:14] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  365. [17:59:18] +Snobalt: B/c with a special attacking spread we already beat a crapload of fatmons
  366. [17:59:20] Agile Turtle: but I'd really not like to be pigeonholed into a glass canon
  367. [17:59:24] @cbrevan: a large number of pokemon we want to threaten are very physically defensive
  368. [17:59:32] @cbrevan: such as tomohawk, garchomp, and cyclohm
  369. [17:59:37] Alfalfa: I am fine going purely special
  370. [17:59:46] Rool821: i prefer to not
  371. [17:59:51] NumberCruncher: Again, we aren't a glass connon if we take amlost nothing from a ton of commonly used moves
  372. [17:59:52] Rool821: o we dont get walled
  373. [17:59:54] boxofkangaroos: also Skarmory and Hippowdon
  374. [17:59:56] Wyvern Lord Beruka: I really feel the CAP isn;t really needing very high attacking stats. Yes we want to poke holes in major mons, but we don;t want to turn it into a generic mixed sweeper.
  375. [18:00:06] Alfalfa: Going mixed seems a bit controversial
  376. [18:00:07] Rool821: but speciail bais seems great
  377. [18:00:07] Agile Turtle: 17:54:41] +Snobalt: Taking another look at the threatlist, are Chansey and (to a lesser extent) Colo that problematic that it warrants going mixed?
  378. [18:00:20] Animaignis: I think so.
  379. [18:00:22] Agile Turtle: imo focus blast is problematic too
  380. [18:00:34] Animaignis: Chansey is a staple of stall that we NEED to combat.
  381. [18:00:36] Wyvern Lord Beruka: Alfalfa, it provides us options to take down walls on both sides of the defensive spectrum
  382. [18:00:43] Agile Turtle: if you miss one focus miss, bam they just heal
  383. [18:00:43] NumberCruncher: Agreed on Focus Miss being somewhat of an issue
  384. [18:00:46] Agile Turtle: and then you run out of pp
  385. [18:00:56] Animaignis: Part of the tpying advantage is that we can break down the Chansey + Msab core many stall teams use if we stat it right.
  386. [18:00:56] Natu worry: Wyvern Lord Beruka 100 percent agree! this is supposed to be a utility mon with offensive presence
  387. [18:01:15] Rool821: we arent on moves but if we go spa maybye pyshock
  388. [18:01:22] Agile Turtle: no
  389. [18:01:27] Agile Turtle: we'd need secret sword
  390. [18:01:29] Animaignis: It won't do that much off-stab to chansey.
  391. [18:01:35] NumberCruncher: That's absurd. It destroys Poison as a counter
  392. [18:01:36] #HeaLnDeaL: don't talk about coverage moves pls
  393. [18:01:44] Agile Turtle: which would require someone to pull some very special strings to get allowed
  394. [18:01:49] Animaignis: lol
  395. [18:01:49] Wyvern Lord Beruka: ^^
  396. [18:01:54] Agile Turtle: it's not happening
  397. [18:02:06] Rool821: ok
  398. [18:02:07] Animaignis: Anyways, so I think we all agree it needs to have some sort of viable attack.
  399. [18:02:07] Wyvern Lord Beruka: Yeah, unfortunately
  400. [18:02:15] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  401. [18:02:16] Animaignis: Or, most agree.
  402. [18:02:21] Alfalfa: I think you should make it clear:
  403. [18:02:26] Alfalfa: Mixed, or purely special?
  404. [18:02:36] +Snobalt: That's what I'm trying to conclude now
  405. [18:02:40] NumberCruncher: Mixed
  406. [18:02:45] Animaignis: Purely Special is iffy to me since it loses out against a lot of big threats.
  407. [18:02:46] NumberCruncher: Would be my vote
  408. [18:02:52] Wyvern Lord Beruka: A specially based mixed is where I'd vote
  409. [18:02:56] Rool821: ^
  410. [18:03:05] Alfalfa: Agreed with Beruka
  411. [18:03:06] NumberCruncher: Agreed on Special Mixed
  412. [18:03:08] Rool821: HeaLnDeaL do we know our bst max?
  413. [18:03:10] Animaignis: I would agree with Beruka.
  414. [18:03:29] Natu worry: yup special based mixed
  415. [18:03:37] Natu worry: sounds good imo
  416. [18:03:39] Agile Turtle: there is no bst max
  417. [18:03:43] boxofkangaroos: Mixed is my vote as well. We mainly need to beat physical walls, but then there's also Chansey sticking out like a sore thumb. So we need great Special Sweepiness and slightly worse Physical Sweepiness.
  418. [18:03:43] #HeaLnDeaL: there is no bst max in CAP. it's a BSR max.
  419. [18:03:51] Rool821: bsr?
  420. [18:03:52] Agile Turtle: physical based mixed is better
  421. [18:03:53] Animaignis: Probably below 600 however is a good limit.
  422. [18:04:02] Rool821: ok
  423. [18:04:04] Alfalfa: 600 is relative right now Animaignis
  424. [18:04:04] Animaignis: Like, in addition to the BSR max
  425. [18:04:08] Animaignis: True
  426. [18:04:10] Rage.Spam.Quit.: What else would physical fighting threaten besides chansey
  427. [18:04:15] Rage.Spam.Quit.: That is relevant
  428. [18:04:25] Alfalfa: AV Colossoil if we want to OHKO it
  429. [18:04:25] NumberCruncher: Soil
  430. [18:04:28] Agile Turtle: high base powewr spammable STABs
  431. [18:04:29] #HeaLnDeaL: heatran?
  432. [18:04:32] Rool821: weavile
  433. [18:04:33] Rage.Spam.Quit.: Ah
  434. [18:04:34] Agile Turtle: that are more reliable than focus miss
  435. [18:04:39] Agile Turtle: are a lot more threatening
  436. [18:04:39] Rool821: ah heatran
  437. [18:04:40] Natu worry: we beat soil anyway
  438. [18:04:44] Animaignis: There are a few other things that run SpD too, but I can't think of them off my head.
  439. [18:04:56] Agile Turtle: a __lot__ more threatening
  440. [18:05:07] Rool821: mala?
  441. [18:05:12] NumberCruncher: Tyranitar
  442. [18:05:12] Animaignis: Mega Gyarados is one.
  443. [18:05:22] Rool821: ferro
  444. [18:05:23] @cbrevan: /announce snobalt and i have decided that we should be aiming for a specially biased mixed attacker
  445. [18:05:31] Rool821: yes
  446. [18:05:32] Rage.Spam.Quit.: Ferrothorn usually runs mixed doesn't it
  447. [18:05:33] NumberCruncher: Bisharp, which we've decided we need to counter
  448. [18:05:34] Natu worry: :D
  449. [18:05:48] Rage.Spam.Quit.: Bisharp is ohkoed regardless by fighting stab
  450. [18:05:49] Rool821: kyu b
  451. [18:05:51] JDragon6299: really!? :)
  452. [18:05:51] NumberCruncher: awesome, let's talk BSR
  453. [18:05:51] @cbrevan: /announce now lets start discussing what our specific sweepiness limits are
  454. [18:05:51] Agile Turtle: I was thinking 190 bsr limits on PS and SS
  455. [18:05:53] Rage.Spam.Quit.: whether special or physical
  456. [18:05:54] Rool821: we wa;; ot
  457. [18:06:04] Agile Turtle: if you want more special
  458. [18:06:04] Rool821: sweepiness?
  459. [18:06:12] Wyvern Lord Beruka: 190 is a bit too much imo
  460. [18:06:16] Agile Turtle: 170 PS and 190 SS
  461. [18:06:16] Rool821: ability to sweep?
  462. [18:06:16] Alfalfa: BSR PS 185 SS 217.5 for those benchmarks on Chansey and Hippo while having enough speed for ScarfTar
  463. [18:06:16] Animaignis: I'll just watch mostly for this one, since I didn't look at the calc stuff much yet for the PS and SS.
  464. [18:06:26] Natu worry: lets not make this greninja 2.0 pls
  465. [18:06:35] Agile Turtle: please
  466. [18:06:40] Rool821: lets
  467. [18:06:40] Agile Turtle: greninja has coverage
  468. [18:06:45] Agile Turtle: this doesn't
  469. [18:06:45] Animaignis: eh, greninja's stats weren't that bad.
  470. [18:06:47] boxofkangaroos: Stop talking about coverage
  471. [18:06:47] Alfalfa: Agile Turtle
  472. [18:06:50] Rool821: adn can change typing
  473. [18:06:50] Animaignis: Protean was the issue.
  474. [18:06:50] NumberCruncher: Again, we don't need to OHKO Hippo
  475. [18:06:53] Rool821: and isnt a pivote
  476. [18:06:56] Animaignis: Anyways, off topic x_x
  477. [18:06:56] Rool821: *ivot
  478. [18:06:58] Alfalfa: NumberCruncher
  479. [18:07:02] Rool821: **pivot
  480. [18:07:03] Alfalfa: My numbers 2HKO Hippo
  481. [18:07:07] Alfalfa: Not OHKO
  482. [18:07:22] boxofkangaroos: When talking about limits, does that mean both minimum and maximum?
  483. [18:07:26] Animaignis: My guess is most spreads will be that way.
  484. [18:07:27] Rool821: yes
  485. [18:07:39] NumberCruncher: We have utility moves. Hippo takes literally none of them well
  486. [18:07:42] Agile Turtle: I think there should be a minimum set in place to avoid BSR abuse
  487. [18:07:42] @cbrevan: focus on maximums for now
  488. [18:07:43] Rool821: and this isnt a greninja
  489. [18:07:47] boxofkangaroos: Okay
  490. [18:07:48] Rool821: dont compare
  491. [18:07:49] NumberCruncher: Outside of Wave
  492. [18:07:50] Agile Turtle: but a maximum is more important atm
  493. [18:08:04] Natu worry: I'm just saying let's not make this an offensive juggernaut
  494. [18:08:14] Agile Turtle: I'd agree
  495. [18:08:17] Rage.Spam.Quit.: ^
  496. [18:08:17] #HeaLnDeaL: agile turtle, BSR abuse is against the rules already
  497. [18:08:32] NumberCruncher: but every mon that's tried to do what we're doing has been heavily offensive
  498. [18:08:46] Rage.Spam.Quit.: A supportive pivot?
  499. [18:08:56] Rage.Spam.Quit.: Well tangrowth is one
  500. [18:08:57] Agile Turtle: yes but heal, my point is, not everyone will put their spreads as mixed, they might give an un usable attack stat just to hit under the bsr limit
  501. [18:08:58] Rage.Spam.Quit.: also Rotom-w
  502. [18:09:04] @cbrevan: we're not exactly a support pivot
  503. [18:09:10] Rage.Spam.Quit.: Hmm
  504. [18:09:16] Alfalfa: We are an offensive pivot
  505. [18:09:17] Natu worry: It should still threaten things out! but lets not get carried away
  506. [18:09:17] @cbrevan: the only support move this concept calls for is parting shot
  507. [18:09:25] #HeaLnDeaL: and so those submissions would be unslatable, Agile Turtle...
  508. [18:09:25] NumberCruncher: Ah, I forgot the godly speed of Tangrowth
  509. [18:09:27] Alfalfa: I am pretty sure we have already stated that
  510. [18:09:30] @cbrevan: which to work we need to be able to force switches
  511. [18:09:47] NumberCruncher: Truly fast support was changed forever by Tangrowth
  512. [18:09:54] Agile Turtle: I won't get into this with you rn heal because it's really not important
  513. [18:10:07] Agile Turtle: so we'll leave it at that
  514. [18:10:27] Alfalfa: Tangrowth isn't passive like Chansey or Hippo NumberCruncher
  515. [18:10:39] NumberCruncher: We're fast utility
  516. [18:10:42] Agile Turtle: that's cause tangrowth hass offensive stats
  517. [18:10:51] Agile Turtle: so does hippo tho, but it doesn;t use them often
  518. [18:10:56] Agile Turtle: tangy does
  519. [18:10:56] NumberCruncher: That's literally how we chose to fill the concept
  520. [18:11:28] @cbrevan: agile turtle there is no need to establish minimum limits to prevent something which is already illegal
  521. [18:12:14] Alfalfa: test
  522. [18:12:21] NumberCruncher: You'
  523. [18:12:21] Agile Turtle: It's not important rn cb
  524. [18:12:29] +Snobalt: moving on
  525. [18:13:10] NumberCruncher: As far as BSR total, can we agree we shouldn't have more than 330
  526. [18:13:22] Agile Turtle: I was thinking 310
  527. [18:13:29] Animaignis: I would agree with that @ Cruncher.
  528. [18:13:33] +Snobalt: Well the BSR limit is going to be stricter than the individual stat limit, but nothing's set in stone yet
  529. [18:13:38] Natu worry: lets not limit ourselves right away
  530. [18:14:04] Natu worry: lets meet certain benchmarks like speed tiers first imo
  531. [18:14:10] Alfalfa: In order to keep this thing from possibly being borderline broken
  532. [18:14:23] Alfalfa: We should establish one thing: which defense do we want to tank?
  533. [18:14:29] Natu worry: Atk
  534. [18:14:33] Animaignis: I would say Attack.
  535. [18:14:33] +Snobalt: so guys, what sweepiness do we need not just to KO certain threats, but also to outspeed them?
  536. [18:14:42] Alfalfa: Yes Snobalt
  537. [18:14:42] Alfalfa: We are FPS
  538. [18:14:44] NumberCruncher: Probably PS is the better stat we want
  539. [18:14:50] NumberCruncher: *PT
  540. [18:14:56] Agile Turtle: I'm thinking 170 PS limit, 190 SS limit, 150 PT limit, 130 ST limit, 310 BSR limt
  541. [18:15:02] Alfalfa: No
  542. [18:15:04] +Snobalt: Agile Turtle why those specificlaly
  543. [18:15:07] Agile Turtle: physical tankines is much more important
  544. [18:15:13] +Snobalt: And those look quite low to begin with
  545. [18:15:18] @cbrevan: guys please stay on topic
  546. [18:15:28] @cbrevan: we are discussion sweepiness rn, not tankiness
  547. [18:15:29] +Snobalt: Yeah we're still on sweepiness
  548. [18:15:36] #HeaLnDeaL: support your limits with calcs too, pls
  549. [18:15:40] Alfalfa: I think 225 Sweepiness
  550. [18:15:41] @cbrevan: !calc
  551. [18:15:41] |html|<div class="infobox">Pok&eacute;mon Showdown! damage calculator. (Courtesy of Honko)<br />- <a href="https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/">Damage Calculator</a></div>
  552. [18:15:44] Rage.Spam.Quit.: I agree with agile turtle
  553. [18:15:51] Alfalfa: SS
  554. [18:15:52] Agile Turtle: I'm spitballing rn but I will
  555. [18:15:55] Natu worry: do we plan on giving this mon a decent HP stat? that's important
  556. [18:15:58] Alfalfa: Not both PS and S
  557. [18:16:02] Alfalfa: To clarify
  558. [18:16:02] NumberCruncher: We should probably be physically tanky, since the only Dark/Bu move we'd be taking is Sycland or Aura's Bug Buzz
  559. [18:16:12] +Snobalt: As a benchmark, stratagem's SS is 199.9316877
  560. [18:16:14] Agile Turtle: I actually prefer lower HP higher defense
  561. [18:16:22] Rool821: sweepness is ss correct?
  562. [18:16:29] +Snobalt: ss = special sweepiness
  563. [18:16:32] +Snobalt: ps = physical sweepiness
  564. [18:16:32] Alfalfa: I prefer moderate HP high defense low special defense
  565. [18:16:39] Rool821: ok
  566. [18:16:45] Alfalfa: But
  567. [18:16:45] NumberCruncher: PT = Physical Tankiness
  568. [18:16:47] Animaignis: I agree with Alfalfa there.
  569. [18:16:50] Alfalfa: We are on sweepiness
  570. [18:16:50] Agile Turtle: yeah snowball, we don't really need to hit the sweepiness of strata to threaten things, so imo 190 is a fine limit
  571. [18:17:01] Alfalfa: 190 is rather low
  572. [18:17:04] Alfalfa: For SS
  573. [18:17:08] Agile Turtle: it's not
  574. [18:17:09] Agile Turtle: at all
  575. [18:17:19] Alfalfa: Our SS should be over 200 at least
  576. [18:17:25] Alfalfa: No higher than 230
  577. [18:17:35] +Snobalt: Turtle yeah it's pretty low
  578. [18:17:39] Rool821: keep in mind its mxed
  579. [18:17:40] #HeaLnDeaL: I think going over stratagem (going over 200) is kinda absurd
  580. [18:17:46] Rool821: but spa baised
  581. [18:17:46] #HeaLnDeaL: for SS
  582. [18:17:48] Wyvern Lord Beruka: base 89 Att would give us a 2 shot on Cawm with CC, which is where I'd see the minimum
  583. [18:17:49] NumberCruncher: Argeed with Heal
  584. [18:17:50] Agile Turtle: it's incredibly absurd
  585. [18:17:57] Natu worry: yeah it should not go above strata
  586. [18:18:13] Natu worry: no way
  587. [18:18:14] Rool821: mabye in the 170's to 190's?
  588. [18:18:19] +Snobalt: For all the worrying about FB, we also have aura sphere too
  589. [18:18:21] Rool821: or 160's
  590. [18:18:28] NumberCruncher: 170 to 190 seems fine
  591. [18:18:32] +Snobalt: Rool821 already that looks way too low
  592. [18:18:33] Agile Turtle: 117 SpA, 120 Spd is reachable within a 190 limit
  593. [18:18:41] Rool821: sorry my bad
  594. [18:18:47] Agile Turtle: aura sphere is less threatening
  595. [18:18:58] Agile Turtle: it does 2/3 the damage as focus miss
  596. [18:19:07] Alfalfa: Agile Turtle
  597. [18:19:13] Alfalfa: Can you stop being so conservative
  598. [18:19:15] Alfalfa: With BSR
  599. [18:19:20] Alfalfa: Offensively
  600. [18:19:21] boxofkangaroos: I think the maximum Speed should be 129, because there's no point in outspeeding Stratagem.
  601. [18:19:28] Alfalfa: We already concluded that we want a special mix
  602. [18:19:30] Rool821: ^
  603. [18:19:36] Alfalfa: And Hippo is a mon we want to threaten
  604. [18:19:41] +Snobalt: Even then we should go a little lower than 129
  605. [18:19:42] Alfalfa: Plus, we are FPS
  606. [18:19:48] NumberCruncher: Why are we talking Focus Miss and Aura, when it's probably going to end up in Superpower/Close Combat
  607. [18:19:55] Natu worry: 129 is overkill
  608. [18:19:56] boxofkangaroos: I know, but that's a MAXIMUM maximum
  609. [18:19:59] Agile Turtle: alfalfa what you're going for is something akin to scyclant, with __even better__ stats
  610. [18:20:04] Rool821: Snobalt 160 is to low?
  611. [18:20:08] +Snobalt: Much
  612. [18:20:10] +Snobalt: I think
  613. [18:20:11] Agile Turtle: and a __way__ better typing
  614. [18:20:12] Alfalfa: We are a Parting Shot pivot
  615. [18:20:25] Agile Turtle: what you want is a catch all
  616. [18:20:27] +Snobalt: Syclant uses U-turn and doubles as a TG sweeper as well
  617. [18:20:30] Agile Turtle: with absurd stats
  618. [18:20:35] Alfalfa: We are more affected by passivity than Syclant
  619. [18:20:36] Agile Turtle: that is borderline broken
  620. [18:20:49] Animaignis: I feel 190 is a realistic cap for special sweepiness.
  621. [18:20:52] +Snobalt: They're not THAT comparable I don't think
  622. [18:21:01] Agile Turtle: statwise they are
  623. [18:21:01] Natu worry: Agile Turtle makes a good point tbh
  624. [18:21:02] Alfalfa: I think 230 is a realistic maximum
  625. [18:21:09] Agile Turtle: even without the coverage scyclant has
  626. [18:21:09] #HeaLnDeaL: 230 is crazy
  627. [18:21:12] +Snobalt: That's probably overkill
  628. [18:21:14] #HeaLnDeaL: absolutely crazy
  629. [18:21:14] Agile Turtle: it's still very comparable
  630. [18:21:21] Alfalfa: Sorry 220
  631. [18:21:24] boxofkangaroos: Are there any relevant scarfers that hit between 386 and 392 speed?
  632. [18:21:28] Agile Turtle: even 220
  633. [18:21:32] +Snobalt: scarftar I think
  634. [18:21:34] +Snobalt: But that's it
  635. [18:21:40] NumberCruncher: I guess if you hook up Tar
  636. [18:21:40] @cbrevan: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-cap-speed-tiers.3572671/
  637. [18:21:46] Agile Turtle: I'd be ok if the limit was over 190 i guess
  638. [18:21:50] boxofkangaroos: Scarf tar only hits 364
  639. [18:21:54] Natu worry: scarftar does nothing to us anyway
  640. [18:21:57] Agile Turtle: but if it's over 200 that's just outright crazy
  641. [18:21:58] Animaignis: o_o I think above 210 is still crazy
  642. [18:22:06] #HeaLnDeaL: I think 195 would be as high as we should go... the higher we get, the closer to a sweeper we become and we lose sight of parting shot
  643. [18:22:14] Animaignis: ^
  644. [18:22:14] boxofkangaroos: I agree with HeaL
  645. [18:22:16] Natu worry: we literally wall scarftar
  646. [18:22:20] Natu worry: who cares
  647. [18:22:31] Agile Turtle: thanks HeaL
  648. [18:22:35] Rool821: i agree HeaLnDeaL
  649. [18:22:35] +Snobalt: Also thought it had 70 speed for a sec. my bad :P
  650. [18:22:37] Alfalfa: I disagree
  651. [18:22:42] Alfalfa: HeaLnDeaL
  652. [18:22:43] Animaignis: lol
  653. [18:22:59] Alfalfa: Hippo is a mon we want to threaten, and we specifically agreed on FPS
  654. [18:23:10] Rool821: can we set a maximum of 200 ss?
  655. [18:23:16] Alfalfa: I think 220
  656. [18:23:20] NumberCruncher: Again, Hippo loses to every status or support move we could give this mon
  657. [18:23:20] Agile Turtle: 190
  658. [18:23:25] Rool821: we are stil mixed
  659. [18:23:31] SHSP: do we plan on threatening stuff like hippo through our stats or through movepool is my question
  660. [18:23:36] +Snobalt: No need on a maximum
  661. [18:23:41] %DarkSlay: Hi all.
  662. [18:23:44] NumberCruncher: Movepool obviously.
  663. [18:23:46] Rool821: hi drak
  664. [18:23:49] Alfalfa: Stats
  665. [18:23:49] SHSP: hey ds
  666. [18:23:58] Alfalfa: We already have a STAB Moonblast
  667. [18:23:58] NumberCruncher: Howdy Slay
  668. [18:24:09] @cbrevan: either one works shsp
  669. [18:24:10] Animaignis: Keep it in that Excellent range imo.
  670. [18:24:15] %DarkSlay: What have I missed?
  671. [18:24:24] NumberCruncher: Currently not much
  672. [18:24:25] Natu worry: stats, we are special based mixed so yeah hippo should drop to LO moonblast (2hko)
  673. [18:24:26] boxofkangaroos: Can confirm, there are no relevant Scarfers between 386 and 392 speed. So I think base 126 (386 speed) should be our speed maximum.
  674. [18:24:27] Rool821: ~~scroll p~~
  675. [18:24:32] Animaignis: DS I can send you the logs once it finishes k
  676. [18:24:33] Alfalfa: Conflicts over how liberal we should be with BSR DarkSlay
  677. [18:24:38] Rool821: ds we are spa mixed
  678. [18:24:45] NumberCruncher: We're a specially-oriented mixed attacker
  679. [18:24:47] Rool821: we are dong swepiness
  680. [18:24:49] SHSP: either works, but i feel as though it's going to impact both processes depending on how we handle the issue cb
  681. [18:25:01] boxofkangaroos: 126 is the speed we need to outspeed Weavile, which could otherwise smash us with a Poison Jab
  682. [18:25:14] Natu worry: no way
  683. [18:25:19] +Snobalt: I don't think it usually runs PJ
  684. [18:25:20] +Snobalt: Does it?
  685. [18:25:20] Alfalfa: That is going to inflate BSR even more
  686. [18:25:24] Natu worry: thats way t o fast
  687. [18:25:31] SHSP: snobalt, the band set often does
  688. [18:25:34] boxofkangaroos: Snobalt, it's somewhat common.
  689. [18:25:46] +Snobalt: That's understandable in CAP actually
  690. [18:25:47] Alfalfa: Keep in mind
  691. [18:25:48] Animaignis: eh maybe I'm just outdated, but I though it usually runs Low Kick over Poison Jab
  692. [18:25:51] +Snobalt: b/c fairies
  693. [18:25:53] SHSP: and 4 attacks can run it although its less prominent
  694. [18:25:53] boxofkangaroos: Mainly to beat stuff like Clefable
  695. [18:25:54] Reminescent: Heyo :]
  696. [18:26:05] boxofkangaroos: I'm not quite sure how popular Poison Jab is in CAP, though.
  697. [18:26:09] SHSP: jab is somewhat recent iirc
  698. [18:26:09] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  699. [18:26:09] Animaignis: ^
  700. [18:26:12] Animaignis: ninja'd
  701. [18:26:12] NumberCruncher: Poison Jab is on less than 10% of Weavile
  702. [18:26:18] Alfalfa: Do you think 220 SS is too much
  703. [18:26:19] Natu worry: thats a niche option and Band runs pursuit>Jab
  704. [18:26:24] Reminescent: Tbh we can just run mach punch for bish and weavile
  705. [18:26:26] +Snobalt: Probably
  706. [18:26:26] Wyvern Lord Beruka: 220 is way too much
  707. [18:26:30] Reminescent: :/
  708. [18:26:30] Alfalfa: To 2HKO Hippo
  709. [18:26:40] Reminescent: Tbh we need like
  710. [18:26:42] NumberCruncher: 9.144 to be more presise
  711. [18:26:45] Reminescent: 188 SS
  712. [18:26:53] Reminescent: And 176 PS
  713. [18:27:01] Alfalfa: 188 is way too low
  714. [18:27:05] Reminescent: :(
  715. [18:27:09] Animaignis: Like I said, I think our SS should be in the range where it is rated as "Excellent"
  716. [18:27:10] boxofkangaroos: Poison Jab or not, it's still important to outspeed Weavile in my opinion.
  717. [18:27:16] Alfalfa: I think
  718. [18:27:16] Animaignis: That keeps it decent without being absurd
  719. [18:27:20] Alfalfa: In order to stop bickering over BSR
  720. [18:27:24] Wyvern Lord Beruka: What item would the CAP be likely holding? if a LO, then the 2HKO on hippo is easily done
  721. [18:27:26] Alfalfa: We should establish our ideal speed tier
  722. [18:27:27] Rool821: Reminescent i agree
  723. [18:27:31] Alfalfa: Wyvern Lord Beruka
  724. [18:27:34] boxofkangaroos: And for people saying 126 is WAY too high, I proposed it as a maximum.
  725. [18:27:37] Alfalfa: 220 SS factors in Life Orb
  726. [18:27:41] Agile Turtle: I want lefties on CAP
  727. [18:27:44] Agile Turtle: :>
  728. [18:27:48] Agile Turtle: but tbh
  729. [18:27:48] Reminescent: :o
  730. [18:27:59] Agile Turtle: Poison jab is not too prominent on weavile
  731. [18:28:01] Rool821: Alfalfa we arent counting items
  732. [18:28:02] NumberCruncher: 126 to 129 seems fine
  733. [18:28:05] Rool821: thats oburd
  734. [18:28:09] Reminescent: Tbh we need speed facctor on 221
  735. [18:28:12] Reminescent: :/
  736. [18:28:13] #HeaLnDeaL: boxofkangaroos, we don't have min/max on individual stats, only on the bsr limits
  737. [18:28:13] Alfalfa: 126 Special Attack + Life Orb 2HKOs Hippo
  738. [18:28:14] Rool821: *obsurd
  739. [18:28:17] Alfalfa: Rool821
  740. [18:28:19] Rool821: and confuing
  741. [18:28:25] Rool821: *canfusing
  742. [18:28:29] Agile Turtle: so with more than decent physica bulk, we can take any weavile that doesn't carry pj
  743. [18:28:31] Rool821: i give up
  744. [18:28:40] Alfalfa: Offensively, I would not be surprised if Life Orb was factored in in other CAP Projects
  745. [18:28:49] Animaignis: Same
  746. [18:28:54] Rool821: not inthe ss
  747. [18:29:00] boxofkangaroos: Yeah I know, I just thought it would help to take a certain speed stat into account to determine max SS.
  748. [18:29:00] Reminescent: Tbh idk if life orb is the best iten for cap22
  749. [18:29:01] Rool821: they thould be eperate
  750. [18:29:08] Reminescent: Longevity is the key to its usefulness
  751. [18:29:17] Agile Turtle: I agree 100% remmy
  752. [18:29:21] SHSP: how much offensive power can we afford to give this, breaking stuff like hippo is nice, but its a fine balance between "can't break what it needs to" and "breaks too much"
  753. [18:29:26] Reminescent: Maybe something like choice
  754. [18:29:31] Reminescent: Or expert belt/plate
  755. [18:29:34] Reminescent: Even lefties
  756. [18:29:40] Wyvern Lord Beruka: 220 would be way too much for the CAP, and has room for abuse in it,if people use lower speeds
  757. [18:29:44] Agile Turtle: lefties is my ideal
  758. [18:29:44] Alfalfa: Not running Life Orb contradicts one of the main targets we should threaten: passive mons
  759. [18:29:48] Animaignis: ^
  760. [18:29:51] Reminescent: ^
  761. [18:29:59] CantGreggMe: ^
  762. [18:30:00] Reminescent: But then again
  763. [18:30:02] Animaignis: I think Life Orb will be the best item on it in most scenarios.
  764. [18:30:11] Reminescent: Fairy fight alone is already a good offensive typing
  765. [18:30:18] Rool821: but we shouldnt add it to the ss or ps
  766. [18:30:26] NumberCruncher: It's about as good as mono-Fairy tbh
  767. [18:30:26] Rool821: those areseperate
  768. [18:30:32] #HeaLnDeaL: life orb is undoubtedly an option, but it shouldn't be our only consideration
  769. [18:30:41] Reminescent: We we really need is really good PT
  770. [18:30:45] Agile Turtle: it shouldn't even be our main consideration imo
  771. [18:30:46] SHSP: the fact we're mixed is another consideration, as walls that don't lose to one side of the spectrum still have to worry about the other
  772. [18:30:50] Reminescent: Cause its typing resustances/immunitied
  773. [18:30:55] NumberCruncher: We don't need much. Probably only like 130 PT
  774. [18:31:00] Natu worry: its also important to consider that this will probably not get many (if any) boosting moves so power is appreciated
  775. [18:31:00] Reminescent: Heal kind if u show us !weak fairy fighting
  776. [18:31:02] Agile Turtle: I think we should give it options for a set with longevity, and a powerhouse set
  777. [18:31:04] NumberCruncher: Probably 145 as a max
  778. [18:31:13] Rool821: ^
  779. [18:31:16] #HeaLnDeaL: !weak fairy fighting
  780. [18:31:16] |html|<div class="infobox">Fairy/Fighting:<br><span class="message-effect-weak">Weaknesses</span>: Fairy, Flying, Poison, Psychic, Steel<br><span class="message-effect-resist">Resistances</span>: <b>Bug</b>, <b>Dark</b>, Fighting, Rock<br><span class="message-effect-immune">Immunities</span>: Dragon</div>
  781. [18:31:16] Animaignis: My guess is as a mixed attacker, we won't be using choice items much.
  782. [18:31:21] Agile Turtle: 150 PT imo
  783. [18:31:21] Reminescent: Look at those nice resistances that match with nice physically defensive
  784. [18:31:31] Reminescent: And immune to dragon
  785. [18:31:36] +Snobalt: guys we're not onto tankiness yet
  786. [18:31:39] Reminescent: Maybe 160-170 PT
  787. [18:31:40] Reminescent: O
  788. [18:31:42] Reminescent: Ok
  789. [18:31:46] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  790. [18:31:47] Rool821: this kills kyu b
  791. [18:31:47] Agile Turtle: nah man that's high
  792. [18:31:57] Reminescent: :[
  793. [18:31:59] Wyvern Lord Beruka: The CAP doesn;t want to stick around much. Its supposed to be fast and furious
  794. [18:32:00] Alfalfa: Let's be realistic
  795. [18:32:10] Reminescent: So a hit and runner
  796. [18:32:13] Animaignis: ^
  797. [18:32:14] Alfalfa: We are going to have better odds threatening the Pokemon we want to threaten with offenses
  798. [18:32:14] Rool821: ^
  799. [18:32:24] Rool821: *^@Reminescent
  800. [18:32:24] Animaignis: Rather than outlasting them.
  801. [18:32:26] Reminescent: But tbh some nice Physical Bulk is cool eith its tuping
  802. [18:32:29] Alfalfa: Yet, we also agreed on being a FPS
  803. [18:32:34] Natu worry: yeah we can't be too fast our mon has incredible offenses and typing
  804. [18:32:44] Reminescent: Ik
  805. [18:32:49] Alfalfa: Is it not natural that our PS and SS BSR limits are going to be rather high
  806. [18:32:50] Wyvern Lord Beruka: 120 is more than enough for PT
  807. [18:32:53] Natu worry: poisons are rare as it is
  808. [18:32:54] Reminescent: Thats why im reccomending stuff like 115-120 speed
  809. [18:33:03] Reminescent: Idk what speed factor for that is
  810. [18:33:10] Rool821: we dont want to be able to switch in only 5 times
  811. [18:33:22] Alfalfa: 5 times is enough on a VoltTurn team
  812. [18:33:23] Rool821: we cant be super frail like hoopa u or mega bee
  813. [18:33:28] SHSP: i wouldnt worry much about switching in
  814. [18:33:35] Reminescent: HoopaU isnt that frail
  815. [18:33:41] Reminescent: Look at its Sp.def
  816. [18:33:45] Rool821: we should be able to switch in on some hits
  817. [18:33:49] Rool821: if you predict
  818. [18:33:51] Reminescent: Yea
  819. [18:34:00] Natu worry: physical ones at least
  820. [18:34:01] SHSP: we have a 4x resist to a very common type in dark and also an immunity to dragon which helps
  821. [18:34:05] Reminescent: Heres a good example for that
  822. [18:34:06] Rool821: like clo knock shoudlnt kill in like2 hits
  823. [18:34:10] Reminescent: Hawlucha
  824. [18:34:15] Reminescent: Not meant to swutch in to stuff
  825. [18:34:22] Rool821: it is a sweeper
  826. [18:34:23] Reminescent: But it does some key swutch in opportunities
  827. [18:34:25] Reminescent: Ik
  828. [18:34:36] Rool821: not a pivot
  829. [18:34:36] Alfalfa: Is 215 SS too high
  830. [18:34:39] Rool821: pivots have to switch
  831. [18:34:42] Reminescent: I know
  832. [18:34:42] Alfalfa: I will settle for nothing lower
  833. [18:34:47] +Snobalt: Alfalfa, CB and I are discussing it now
  834. [18:34:48] Reminescent: Tbh
  835. [18:34:49] Rool821: its not supposed to stay in
  836. [18:34:56] Reminescent: 160-180 SS
  837. [18:34:59] boxofkangaroos: I think 207 is a good SS limit.
  838. [18:35:00] Reminescent: Is what i reccomend
  839. [18:35:17] Rool821: i feel our MAX should be 190 to 200 ss
  840. [18:35:19] Agile Turtle: I stil stand by 170 PS and 190
  841. [18:35:21] Agile Turtle: SS
  842. [18:35:27] Reminescent: Same
  843. [18:35:35] Rool821: l ike Agile Turtle's idea
  844. [18:35:42] Alfalfa: Agile Turtle, I want to state something
  845. [18:35:43] Animaignis: I feel maybe 170-195
  846. [18:35:43] Reminescent: 160-180 for me maaaybe ill be ok with 190-200
  847. [18:35:44] Wyvern Lord Beruka: Most of our to-threatens we resist most of their STABs
  848. [18:35:44] Alfalfa: I feel like
  849. [18:35:47] Reminescent: But nothing more
  850. [18:35:48] Agile Turtle: you can hit 106 Attack, 117 SpA, and still have 120 speed
  851. [18:35:52] Alfalfa: Whenever we try to balance out our CAPs like that
  852. [18:35:57] Alfalfa: We are going to get another Naviathan
  853. [18:36:06] NumberCruncher: 170-190 on SS and 150-170 on PS seem fine
  854. [18:36:11] Wyvern Lord Beruka: No we are not
  855. [18:36:11] Alfalfa: Which I actually had a point on when we considered the typing AND stats
  856. [18:36:14] Reminescent: Whats so bad about Naviathan
  857. [18:36:20] Rool821: ^
  858. [18:36:21] +Snobalt: NC we probably don't even need that much PS
  859. [18:36:32] Alfalfa: Naviathan's typing and physical offenses screwed it over on its Dragon Dance sets
  860. [18:36:37] Wyvern Lord Beruka: Naviathan was mainly based around hitting at +1, that's why the stats were so low
  861. [18:37:06] SHSP: ah, makes sense
  862. [18:37:06] NumberCruncher: To be fair, it doesn't actually hit particularly hard even at +1
  863. [18:37:10] Agile Turtle: except the stats weren't all that low
  864. [18:37:17] Agile Turtle: except for spdef
  865. [18:37:28] Alfalfa: Let's not redirect our discussion to Naviathan anymore
  866. [18:37:29] boxofkangaroos: Naviathan is good, just not a centralizing threat.
  867. [18:37:32] Natu worry: CM is the only Naviathan set
  868. [18:37:34] Rool821: can we stay on topic
  869. [18:37:34] Alfalfa: This discussion should last 25 minutes
  870. [18:37:46] Reminescent: Tbh
  871. [18:37:52] Reminescent: If anythinf should be low
  872. [18:37:56] boxofkangaroos: We started late, so I think we can end late too?
  873. [18:37:56] Reminescent: Is ST
  874. [18:37:57] Rool821: about an hour left
  875. [18:38:02] Rool821: 53 mins
  876. [18:38:07] Alfalfa: I just wanted to make a point, you guys are only distorting it
  877. [18:38:07] +Snobalt: Realistically we can go over time
  878. [18:38:09] Reminescent: Its typing doesnt let it take special hits
  879. [18:38:25] Reminescent: So maybe do like ST like 110-150
  880. [18:38:30] +Snobalt: Also CB and I have reached a decision
  881. [18:38:31] NumberCruncher: ST probably only needs 125 Max.
  882. [18:38:31] Agile Turtle: nah
  883. [18:38:39] Alfalfa: *drumroll*
  884. [18:38:40] Agile Turtle: 110-130 is fine
  885. [18:38:47] Reminescent: I agree agile turtle
  886. [18:38:50] boxofkangaroos: *drumroll enhances*
  887. [18:38:51] Reminescent: What about PT
  888. [18:38:59] Reminescent: I agree with 150-170
  889. [18:39:03] Reminescent: Maybe 140
  890. [18:39:10] +Snobalt: Uh still waiting on him to confirm
  891. [18:39:10] @cbrevan: /announce we're heavily considering 205 for ss
  892. [18:39:17] Animaignis: :O
  893. [18:39:17] NumberCruncher: probably 140, to bring it in line with Torn's ST
  894. [18:39:22] boxofkangaroos: Hey that's really close to my proposal
  895. [18:39:26] Reminescent: Cbrevan i can understand why
  896. [18:39:27] Agile Turtle: any specific reason why 205?
  897. [18:39:28] Reminescent: And tbh
  898. [18:39:29] Wyvern Lord Beruka: 120 is max is really needs
  899. [18:39:44] SHSP: 205 seems to strike a good balance between the low and the high arguments
  900. [18:39:46] Reminescent: I like it
  901. [18:39:49] Alfalfa: I personally say 210 isn't that insensible
  902. [18:39:49] Reminescent: :]
  903. [18:39:52] Agile Turtle: I'll take a 200 limit, but 205 seems a bit much
  904. [18:39:56] +Snobalt: Guys before we get to tankiness let's finish physical sweepiness
  905. [18:40:01] +Snobalt: Which shouldn't take long imo
  906. [18:40:02] boxofkangaroos: Note: with 126 speed, this is a maximum of 123 special attack
  907. [18:40:13] Rool821: i feel like we need ps o f150 - 190 - MAX
  908. [18:40:21] Animaignis: 150-180 in my opinion.
  909. [18:40:24] +Snobalt: Even then that looks too high
  910. [18:40:26] Agile Turtle: 170 PS
  911. [18:40:32] Rool821: like Animaignis
  912. [18:40:33] Rool821: said
  913. [18:40:37] Alfalfa: 175 PS
  914. [18:40:42] Animaignis: I like 175 too.
  915. [18:40:43] Agile Turtle: it let's you hit a nice 105 attack even with 120 speed
  916. [18:40:49] boxofkangaroos: 160 PS is enough in my opinion.
  917. [18:40:52] Alfalfa: We need at least 110 attack
  918. [18:40:53] Rool821: snobalt as a max if wego a bit lower on ss
  919. [18:40:54] SHSP: what would we be threatening from the physical side over the special?
  920. [18:41:00] boxofkangaroos: Alfalfa, why?
  921. [18:41:02] +Snobalt: True
  922. [18:41:02] NumberCruncher: 175 is really low if we're actually planning to have in the range of 122 to 130
  923. [18:41:02] Alfalfa: Chansey
  924. [18:41:11] Alfalfa: I stated that Softboiled argument before
  925. [18:41:15] Animaignis: We need at least 110 attack for Chansey, so we need a little bit of wiggle room.
  926. [18:41:17] SHSP: identifying that would help point us in the right PS direction
  927. [18:41:19] +Snobalt: 160 PS with that speed range would be plenty for Chansey
  928. [18:41:23] Alfalfa: Doing at least 75% will always 2HKO after Softboiled
  929. [18:41:29] Alfalfa: SNobalt
  930. [18:41:37] boxofkangaroos: 160 PS is definitely enough if we have strong physical STABs
  931. [18:41:41] Alfalfa: I will never settle for not outspeed Latios
  932. [18:41:45] Animaignis: ^
  933. [18:41:45] Rool821: we should ahve 150 to 180 ps is what i think
  934. [18:41:46] %DarkSlay: 205 SS?!?
  935. [18:41:49] Alfalfa: We need at least 170 PS for that
  936. [18:41:52] Animaignis: We NEED to outspeed latios I think.
  937. [18:41:56] %DarkSlay: That's super high.
  938. [18:41:58] Agile Turtle: chansey, malaconda, spdef heatran, etc are all thing we want PS for
  939. [18:42:02] Reminescent: I will never settle eith not outspeeding starmie
  940. [18:42:11] Agile Turtle: and 105 qattack can handle them
  941. [18:42:11] Alfalfa: Starmie we can afford to lose to
  942. [18:42:14] Animaignis: DS I don't think most spreads will hit it.
  943. [18:42:14] Alfalfa: Latios is NOT
  944. [18:42:14] NumberCruncher: Not really, given the speed tier we're thinking about
  945. [18:42:19] Alfalfa: Because Latios is a dragon
  946. [18:42:23] Agile Turtle: which is reachable with 120 speed within a 170 limit
  947. [18:42:31] Reminescent: I cant affoed to lose to Thundy either cause speed creep
  948. [18:42:42] Alfalfa: I will never settle for less than 210, because 2HKOing Hippowdon is important
  949. [18:42:45] +Snobalt: DS it also accommodates for how much special bias we want
  950. [18:42:46] Alfalfa: On SS
  951. [18:42:48] SHSP: starmie is fine and thundy gets twave priority in the first place
  952. [18:42:52] Animaignis: I think we need 180 PS so that we can reach around 110 attack with around 120 speed.
  953. [18:43:15] SHSP: id agree with Ani if that's what it takes to break chansey as we've discussed
  954. [18:43:16] Reminescent: Shsp we have nat cure tho
  955. [18:43:16] Animaignis: like, 180 or less.
  956. [18:43:21] Rool821: ^
  957. [18:43:32] Agile Turtle: if you wanna hit those high attack and special attack stats, I don't think you should be giving it 120 speed
  958. [18:43:38] Rool821: maybye 190 depending on the ss
  959. [18:43:46] Alfalfa: I agree with Agile Turtle for once
  960. [18:43:46] NumberCruncher: We don't need nearly that much ATK. The only move that we're even somewhat likely to hit with from the Physical end is Close Combat
  961. [18:43:51] SHSP: we do remi, but it still can twave on the switch and we can't outspeed
  962. [18:43:52] Animaignis: 110 isn't high.
  963. [18:43:58] NumberCruncher: or Superpower
  964. [18:44:03] Rool821: Alfalfa its maximum
  965. [18:44:14] boxofkangaroos: Assuming outspeeding Weavile, 100 Attack is about 160 PS. That really should be fine.
  966. [18:44:16] Agile Turtle: like I said, 170 PS lets you hit 105 attack with 120 speed, which is reasonable
  967. [18:44:18] +Snobalt: 110 uninvested CC is enough to guarantee the 2HKO using Alfalfa's method
  968. [18:44:19] #HeaLnDeaL: oh jas I already updated the link, but thanks
  969. [18:44:32] Alfalfa: Snobalt is talking about Chansey
  970. [18:44:39] +Snobalt: ^
  971. [18:44:42] Wyvern Lord Beruka: Alfalfa, is 2HKOing important? we just need to threaten it. That's all.
  972. [18:44:45] boxofkangaroos: Who is really gonna be switching a Chansey in on this thing anyways?
  973. [18:44:45] #HeaLnDeaL: your link is auto download so tht's nice too : O
  974. [18:44:55] Rool821: 6:55 est i have to restart
  975. [18:44:57] #jas61292: Did you see my post in the mod thread?
  976. [18:45:06] Reminescent: :O
  977. [18:45:08] Alfalfa: 3HKOing CHansey is unsatisfactory
  978. [18:45:09] SHSP: similar question- what do we need to outspeed reliably? Lati@s and other base 110s?
  979. [18:45:15] Alfalfa: Yes SHSP
  980. [18:45:17] #jas61292: There were a few other things that needed to be changed from your version
  981. [18:45:18] Reminescent: We need to 2hko chansey for sure
  982. [18:45:20] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  983. [18:45:21] Animaignis: A spread with 110 Attack and 120 Speed requires a top limit at least of 176 PS.
  984. [18:45:27] Alfalfa: Should we 2HKO Hippowdon as well?
  985. [18:45:32] #HeaLnDeaL: oh just read
  986. [18:45:32] Reminescent: And def need to 2hko skarm after rocks
  987. [18:45:32] Rool821: Agile Turtle we arent giving it the max gaurneteed
  988. [18:45:39] #HeaLnDeaL: ye kids, go get the new bsr calc
  989. [18:45:41] Reminescent: 1 thing we need to do
  990. [18:45:48] SHSP: And what should we be outsped by?
  991. [18:45:49] Reminescent: 2hko skarmchansey
  992. [18:45:51] #HeaLnDeaL: jas is good with math and fixes things
  993. [18:46:04] SHSP: woo jad
  994. [18:46:06] SHSP: jas*
  995. [18:46:13] Agile Turtle: rool much more than what I've suggested is almost unreasonable
  996. [18:46:21] Agile Turtle: but 175 I'll take
  997. [18:46:26] Rool821: how so?
  998. [18:46:27] |raw|<div class="broadcast-blue"><b>check the stat thread to get the new bsr calc, sorry for the inconvenience</b></div>
  999. [18:46:32] Rool821: 180
  1000. [18:46:35] Rool821: max
  1001. [18:46:38] #jas61292: Eh... more like I'm good with following the instructions I was given by someone who is actually good at math, but same thing I guess
  1002. [18:46:40] Rool821: makes sense
  1003. [18:47:10] Rool821: Agile Turtle if we go like idk 190 on ss we might go 180 on ps
  1004. [18:47:15] Alfalfa: There is no BSR calc on the thread
  1005. [18:47:24] Animaignis: Is the new spreadsheet using the same link as before in the top post?
  1006. [18:47:25] boxofkangaroos: There's a spreadsheet linked
  1007. [18:47:26] Rool821: link?
  1008. [18:47:28] Agile Turtle: it's just with super high PS and SS, and we need a good enough PT to deal with things like weavile
  1009. [18:47:34] Agile Turtle: it becomes a bit ngoverwhelmi
  1010. [18:47:38] Agile Turtle: like it's a catchall
  1011. [18:47:44] +Snobalt: We're talking it over now
  1012. [18:47:58] +Snobalt: We cleanly 2HKO chansey with CC even if we go as low as like 70
  1013. [18:48:14] Rool821: 70
  1014. [18:48:24] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  1015. [18:48:25] SHSP: I'd suggest we find our speed we'd like to have first and then finish sweepiness, considering that seems to be an important part of the topic
  1016. [18:48:27] #HeaLnDeaL: jas your new version has weird color coding... but oh well
  1017. [18:48:30] +Snobalt: 100 is also about what we need to ohko standard colossoil with no hazards
  1018. [18:48:31] Alfalfa: Nvm
  1019. [18:48:32] NumberCruncher: 70 ATK I assume and not 70 PT
  1020. [18:48:36] +Snobalt: yes atk
  1021. [18:48:45] NumberCruncher: 70 PT doesn't seem like it would even OHKO Magikarp
  1022. [18:48:48] Reminescent: 70 atk? O.O
  1023. [18:48:52] #jas61292: It does? I didn't change anything about the color coding from the original I worked off of
  1024. [18:48:53] Animaignis: o_o it says that 110 atk with 120 speed would now be 185 PS
  1025. [18:49:00] Agile Turtle: did you calc that snowball?
  1026. [18:49:00] +Snobalt: Exactly
  1027. [18:49:08] Alfalfa: What words are hyperlinked with the "new" BSR calculator?
  1028. [18:49:12] #HeaLnDeaL: oh nvm it was just an error because I didn't hit enable editing yet
  1029. [18:49:14] Rool821: thatd make spa gator more vaible
  1030. [18:49:18] Rool821: than the mixed cap
  1031. [18:49:19] +Snobalt: I calced that yes
  1032. [18:49:20] Alfalfa: On the thread
  1033. [18:49:31] Agile Turtle: cause then that 170 PS limit sounds perfectly reasonable
  1034. [18:49:35] boxofkangaroos: To ensure a 3HKO on Soft-Boiled-spamming Chansey, 95 Attack is required. To ensure a 2HKO, 109 Attack is required.
  1035. [18:49:38] Rool821: keep in mind gator's ss is 107 arounf that
  1036. [18:49:38] NumberCruncher: Agreed
  1037. [18:49:39] Alfalfa: 175 PS
  1038. [18:49:44] Alfalfa: So we actually outspeed Latios
  1039. [18:50:05] Alfalfa: Anything else is undesireable
  1040. [18:50:05] +Snobalt: We've reached a PS decision it appears
  1041. [18:50:05] #HeaLnDeaL: snobalt, can you adjust your PS limit to the new calc?
  1042. [18:50:05] Rool821: have ps of miinimum 150 and max 170
  1043. [18:50:10] +Snobalt: Wait
  1044. [18:50:10] boxofkangaroos: Alfalfa why do you think it is specifically important to __2__HKO Chansey?
  1045. [18:50:10] #HeaLnDeaL: err SS I mean
  1046. [18:50:12] Rool821: *180
  1047. [18:50:14] +Snobalt: aw man
  1048. [18:50:24] Reminescent: Tbh
  1049. [18:50:26] SHSP: we wanna outspeed lati's but be outspeed by what?
  1050. [18:50:27] Alfalfa: Chansey is mon we want to threaten
  1051. [18:50:32] #HeaLnDeaL: new calc has strat's ss at 211
  1052. [18:50:34] Alfalfa: Starmie
  1053. [18:50:34] NumberCruncher: Because otherwise it beats us 1-on-1
  1054. [18:50:39] Animaignis: rip Snobalt's decision.
  1055. [18:50:53] Reminescent: Tbh
  1056. [18:51:00] boxofkangaroos: What can Chansey do back to us? Doing over 50% or 66.7% to Chansey is enough of a threatening in my opinion. Plus we can shrug off Toxic/Twave with Natural Cure.
  1057. [18:51:01] Rool821: snobalt
  1058. [18:51:05] Reminescent: We want to outspeed starmie to pull off a fast Ps
  1059. [18:51:09] NumberCruncher: Sesmic Toss
  1060. [18:51:23] Rool821: alakazm's ps is 80 for compaision
  1061. [18:51:25] Animaignis: BoK we need to break it, otherwise we will be easily shut down by a staple of stall teams.
  1062. [18:51:37] boxofkangaroos: If it uses Seismic Toss, then we'll just 2HKO it anyways.
  1063. [18:51:42] Rool821: if you gave the cap 70 its atk would be incredibly low
  1064. [18:51:46] boxofkangaroos: I don't think it's important to 2HKO with Soft-Boiled spam
  1065. [18:52:13] SHSP: wanting to outspeed lati but not starmie would put us at 111-114 speed
  1066. [18:52:24] boxofkangaroos: Why not Starmie?
  1067. [18:52:24] Animaignis: I think we just need to be able to deal over 50% for sure.
  1068. [18:52:31] Reminescent: We want to outspeed scarf tar fir sure
  1069. [18:52:35] boxofkangaroos: ^
  1070. [18:52:40] %DarkSlay: Erm.
  1071. [18:52:43] NumberCruncher: We pretty much only need to do 60% to Chansey, since it's the only mon on Stall that we want to throw CC at
  1072. [18:52:50] Rool821: thats pretty slow
  1073. [18:52:50] Animaignis: But an attack of 109 is required to OHKO standard AV colossoil when using a 120 BP fighting move and LO
  1074. [18:52:54] Reminescent: Tuatd he 117 speed
  1075. [18:53:08] boxofkangaroos: I thought we decided we didn't need to OHKO AV soil?
  1076. [18:53:12] Rool821: Animaignis yes
  1077. [18:53:12] Alfalfa: NumberCruncher
  1078. [18:53:19] Alfalfa: Chansey could still Life Orb stall us
  1079. [18:53:25] Alfalfa: To bring down our HP a lot
  1080. [18:53:30] Animaignis: true
  1081. [18:53:32] Alfalfa: Unfortunately
  1082. [18:53:37] Rool821: boxofkangaroos 70 ps is to low alakazam's os is 80 and it has 50 atk
  1083. [18:53:51] boxofkangaroos: What?
  1084. [18:53:56] Reminescent: You know what we havent considered
  1085. [18:53:57] Rool821: *ps
  1086. [18:54:04] Alfalfa: 126 Special Attack / 111 speed is just above 210 SS on the new calc
  1087. [18:54:04] boxofkangaroos: When did I suggest 70 PS?
  1088. [18:54:05] Reminescent: Parting Shot + Focus Punch
  1089. [18:54:14] Rool821: boxofkangaroos Snobalt did
  1090. [18:54:15] NumberCruncher: That's actually awful
  1091. [18:54:22] Reminescent: :(
  1092. [18:54:29] Animaignis: ehh I don't think so
  1093. [18:54:37] Reminescent: we want 115+ speed this i know
  1094. [18:54:38] Animaignis: Substitute would wear it down to fast pbobably.
  1095. [18:54:54] Reminescent: I didnt say sub
  1096. [18:54:54] NumberCruncher: Also, why would we want to be the Sub, Parting Shot user
  1097. [18:55:04] Animaignis: o_o
  1098. [18:55:11] Animaignis: Not sub? Preposterous :P
  1099. [18:55:12] boxofkangaroos: Alfalfa, It's just above 200
  1100. [18:55:12] Reminescent: I have an idea
  1101. [18:55:15] NumberCruncher: Otherwise, you literally don't threaten anything
  1102. [18:55:25] Rool821: thats like volt sub thund
  1103. [18:55:27] Reminescent: Try being outsped by starmie so we can pull off a Pasrying dhot on the switch
  1104. [18:55:33] +Snobalt: ok NOW we have it for real
  1105. [18:55:34] Reminescent: To switch on our ScarfTar or Band tar
  1106. [18:55:35] #HeaLnDeaL: haang tight kids, cb or sno will announce our adjusted SS for the new calc soon
  1107. [18:55:38] boxofkangaroos: *drumroll*
  1108. [18:55:39] Reminescent: And bop with pursuing
  1109. [18:55:40] Alfalfa: SS is 210.942
  1110. [18:55:43] Rool821: /me grabs popcorn
  1111. [18:55:43] @cbrevan: /announce we're heavily considering 170 for ps, and due to changes in the stat equations our previously considered 205 is now 215
  1112. [18:55:44] Alfalfa: Boxofkangaroos
  1113. [18:55:51] Alfalfa: cbrevan
  1114. [18:55:56] Animaignis: o_o
  1115. [18:56:00] Alfalfa: 175 should be considered
  1116. [18:56:00] Rool821: .3.
  1117. [18:56:02] boxofkangaroos: Oh wait, there was __another__ update to the equations?
  1118. [18:56:03] @cbrevan: /announce *we're heavily considering 175 for ps, and due to changes in the stat equations our previously considered 205 is now 215
  1119. [18:56:07] +Snobalt: There we go
  1120. [18:56:12] +Snobalt: I knew we said 175 in the PM
  1121. [18:56:14] Reminescent: 175 PS why?
  1122. [18:56:19] %DarkSlay: Quick question.
  1123. [18:56:28] %DarkSlay: Why is ScarfTar such a big deal again?
  1124. [18:56:31] Alfalfa: Oh wait cbrevan
  1125. [18:56:32] SHSP: out of curiosity, what would our speed hit with 175ps 215ss?
  1126. [18:56:36] Alfalfa: That would need to be bumped to 180
  1127. [18:56:37] +Snobalt: That's more than enough to OHKO colossoil and outspeed what we need
  1128. [18:56:45] Reminescent: Ok
  1129. [18:56:52] Reminescent: 114 speed is cool imo
  1130. [18:56:55] NumberCruncher: Because Scarf Tar is our main switch-in opportunity
  1131. [18:56:55] Alfalfa: To update
  1132. [18:56:58] #HeaLnDeaL: 175 PS = 120 speed and 104 atk... somewhat low regarding the earlier chansey arguments
  1133. [18:57:11] +Snobalt: We're not OHKOing Chansey though
  1134. [18:57:12] Alfalfa: It should be 180 PS with the updated calc
  1135. [18:57:13] +Snobalt: are we?
  1136. [18:57:17] Reminescent: No
  1137. [18:57:22] Alfalfa: We are dong 75%
  1138. [18:57:23] boxofkangaroos: I think we should do 67-75% to Chansey
  1139. [18:57:25] Reminescent: Just enough to pressure chansey
  1140. [18:57:34] #HeaLnDeaL: it was to 2 hko through sot boilied with life orb
  1141. [18:57:38] Natu worry: but we wall scarftar anyway so who cares if we outspeed it..
  1142. [18:57:47] %DarkSlay: tbh
  1143. [18:57:55] %DarkSlay: I haven't seen a TTar in CAP for quite some time.
  1144. [18:58:01] Natu worry: same
  1145. [18:58:03] %DarkSlay: In fact, TTar is pretty bad in CAP.
  1146. [18:58:11] boxofkangaroos: Well Sand isn't bad
  1147. [18:58:13] Reminescent: Rip
  1148. [18:58:24] Animaignis: I can't log anymore, is there a considerable amount that will be happening after this?
  1149. [18:58:27] Subject 001: TTar is bad in cap? oh...
  1150. [18:58:32] NumberCruncher: It's better than Hippo, which we won't stop talking about, so I suppose it's fine
  1151. [18:58:33] +Snobalt: heaL I know alfalfa proposed that, but is it that important?
  1152. [18:58:39] +Snobalt: yes Animaignis we need to get to tankiness next
  1153. [18:58:42] Rool821: so 175 max PS and 215 max SS
  1154. [18:58:54] Animaignis: So is someone else willing to log from this point on?
  1155. [18:59:00] Alfalfa: No
  1156. [18:59:05] %DarkSlay: I mean...both are kind of irrelevant. Hippo is more relevant than TTar in this metagame.
  1157. [18:59:05] Alfalfa: 180 PS
  1158. [18:59:07] +Snobalt: That's unofficial but it's what we're leaning on
  1159. [18:59:14] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  1160. [18:59:17] %DarkSlay: But Lando-T is the Ground Pokemon of choice in CAP, plus Soil.
  1161. [18:59:19] Rool821: ani i cant
  1162. [18:59:19] Alfalfa: With the update to the BSR calc
  1163. [18:59:27] +Snobalt: Alfalfa we'd need nearly 190 to do the 2Hko with softboiled
  1164. [18:59:27] Alfalfa: 175 PS goes up to 180 PS
  1165. [18:59:37] Alfalfa: On what speed tier
  1166. [18:59:37] Animaignis: k rest is unlogged then, cyall
  1167. [18:59:45] Reminescent: Tbh
  1168. [18:59:49] +Snobalt: On 122
  1169. [18:59:51] Reminescent: Speedtying MCruci is cool
  1170. [18:59:53] Reminescent: Sorta
  1171. [18:59:54] Alfalfa: 122 speed?
  1172. [19:00:00] #HeaLnDeaL: Alfalfa, he has 170 originally
  1173. [19:00:01] +Snobalt: ye
  1174. [19:00:06] Alfalfa: Are we still 2HKOing Hippowdon with Moonblast?
  1175. [19:00:06] Reminescent: Idk if we wanna outspeed TornT
  1176. [19:00:09] NumberCruncher: It's not though, Hippo has way lower usage and Tyrantiar is a Pursuit trapper
  1177. [19:00:12] +Snobalt: Our initial proposal of 170 went up to 175
  1178. [19:00:24] Alfalfa: I must be using and outdated bSR calc
  1179. [19:00:45] Reminescent: Snobalt do u think Parting Shot + Pursuit suppory is gonna rise?
  1180. [19:00:46] Alfalfa: When I proposed 175
  1181. [19:01:09] #HeaLnDeaL: honestly I'm fine with 180 PS, but I'm also fine with 175
  1182. [19:01:09] +Snobalt: With somewhere around 120 SpA (maybe a bit more) we have a strong chance to 2HKO
  1183. [19:01:21] +Snobalt: There's some leeway with power vs speed here
  1184. [19:01:44] +Snobalt: Personally I think 175 is fine, but I'll confirm
  1185. [19:01:48] #jas61292: Haven't really been paying much attention to the actual conversation about limits, and I have to leave shortly anyways, but I just want to say that if there is a particular task you think needs to be accomplished, find the ratings necessary, and set it somewhat higher than that.
  1186. [19:01:50] #jas61292: We want variety, and all limits do is prevent us from going too far. They are not goals to hit. But anyways, have fun chatting. Be back later.
  1187. [19:01:52] Sabernite: Guys I hhave a question
  1188. [19:01:53] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  1189. [19:02:04] Alfalfa: 180 is updated with new BSR calc
  1190. [19:02:05] Alfalfa: Check it
  1191. [19:02:17] Alfalfa: For 110 Atk / 111 Speed
  1192. [19:02:23] Alfalfa: For 122 speed
  1193. [19:02:26] Alfalfa: It will be different
  1194. [19:02:36] Sabernite: whats Snobalt
  1195. [19:02:43] Reminescent: Do we really want to outspeed TornT?
  1196. [19:02:51] Alfalfa: Snobalt proposed it
  1197. [19:02:56] Reminescent: O
  1198. [19:02:58] Alfalfa: But I don't think it is necessary anymore
  1199. [19:03:00] SHSP: I've got to go, good luck in the rest of the discussion- im sure its in very capable hands :)
  1200. [19:03:01] Agile Turtle: we should be outsped by torn t imo
  1201. [19:03:08] Reminescent: ^
  1202. [19:03:08] +Snobalt: why turtle
  1203. [19:03:08] Agile Turtle: I think it should check CAP22
  1204. [19:03:09] Sabernite: Guys I have a question
  1205. [19:03:21] Reminescent: We should be outsped by cawmodore And TornT
  1206. [19:03:22] Reminescent: Imo
  1207. [19:03:24] Agile Turtle: but that's just me
  1208. [19:03:25] +Snobalt: It's a regenerator mon that doesn't give a shit about PS
  1209. [19:03:45] Agile Turtle: because I think flying types should check us
  1210. [19:03:57] Agile Turtle: and torn t is a prominent one
  1211. [19:04:02] Agile Turtle: as is pidge
  1212. [19:04:17] @cbrevan: pidge isn't prominent at all
  1213. [19:04:19] +Snobalt: Pidge isn't THAT prominent, is it?
  1214. [19:04:31] Reminescent: No
  1215. [19:04:32] Agile Turtle: well
  1216. [19:04:36] Agile Turtle: it's not reallty
  1217. [19:04:45] @cbrevan: for what its use for in cap, it should see no usage
  1218. [19:04:48] +Snobalt: There's not a lot of viable flying types that'd be blanket checked if we beat Torn-T
  1219. [19:04:49] Agile Turtle: but by letting torn t check, we also let pidge check
  1220. [19:04:55] Agile Turtle: so I tho I'd mention it
  1221. [19:05:24] NumberCruncher: So if we're trying to be a fast utility mon, and we hard lose to Torn, which is the other fast utility mon, which presumably has better coverage than us because it's Torn, and Torn is faster than us and can thusly do it's job better, why would you use CAP?
  1222. [19:05:25] +Snobalt: Pidge is irrelevant
  1223. [19:05:44] Agile Turtle: I wanna lure some flying mons in, so that we can't parting shot to aurumoth and QDance like that
  1224. [19:05:49] NumberCruncher: When you can just run Torn
  1225. [19:06:16] Rool821: back
  1226. [19:06:27] %DarkSlay: Because we can threaten things Tornadus-T doesn't? And we can set up teammates better with Parting Shot?
  1227. [19:06:28] %DarkSlay: ?_?
  1228. [19:06:33] Natu worry: beause torn and cap22 are completely different..
  1229. [19:06:36] @cbrevan: /announce we've decided to give a little but more leeway for potential submissions so we're now considering 180 ps and 220 ss
  1230. [19:06:44] Reminescent: OmO
  1231. [19:06:47] Agile Turtle: 220 SS is a bit much
  1232. [19:06:48] Reminescent: O.O*
  1233. [19:06:56] %DarkSlay: BST better be pretty low.
  1234. [19:06:58] +Snobalt: If you're riding the limit we'll crack down on it then
  1235. [19:06:59] boxofkangaroos: Yipes
  1236. [19:07:17] @cbrevan: we want to give people flexibility with their submissions
  1237. [19:07:18] %DarkSlay: That's what I'm assuming at this point.
  1238. [19:07:22] NumberCruncher: If we put a hard CAP on the BSR total, it should be fine, though I think the maxes are getting a bit ridiculous at this point
  1239. [19:07:26] Rool821: we need sa logger
  1240. [19:07:33] Agile Turtle: I don't intend to go anywhere near that high :0
  1241. [19:07:42] #HeaLnDeaL: k, onto tankiness stuff? : O
  1242. [19:07:43] NumberCruncher: *hard cap as in max
  1243. [19:07:44] Agile Turtle: but I fear if I don't people would just ignore it
  1244. [19:07:50] +Snobalt: NC the idea is that if we set the limits too low, they become benchmarks themselves
  1245. [19:07:53] +Snobalt: So yeah onto tankiness
  1246. [19:08:00] %DarkSlay: I want this thing to have 10 ST.
  1247. [19:08:03] %DarkSlay: (Kappa)
  1248. [19:08:04] Rool821: im shinking
  1249. [19:08:09] Rool821: *thinking
  1250. [19:08:17] Rool821: aksi abyone logging htis?
  1251. [19:08:31] @cbrevan: i'm going to log this rool
  1252. [19:08:35] Rool821: ok
  1253. [19:08:37] Agile Turtle: 150 PT is a fine max imo
  1254. [19:08:42] NumberCruncher: We probably only need a max of 150 for PT
  1255. [19:08:42] @cbrevan: anyways yes, onwards to tankiness
  1256. [19:08:47] Agile Turtle: around 140 is pretty nice for it
  1257. [19:08:55] Rool821: i like a bit of pt on it
  1258. [19:09:08] Rool821: espaicly going against kyu b and colo
  1259. [19:09:21] Rool821: if we are to frail out tyoing wont matter
  1260. [19:09:22] Reminescent: Tbh
  1261. [19:09:26] Agile Turtle: kyub would use ice beam on this if it wasn
  1262. [19:09:35] Agile Turtle: 't switching out anyway
  1263. [19:09:40] NumberCruncher: Keep in mind that the PT lets it sponge a bit better than you would think, given how many good resists and immunities we have
  1264. [19:09:43] Reminescent: 140-160 PT is fine for me
  1265. [19:09:46] #HeaLnDeaL: 90 / 90 is 141, just so people know
  1266. [19:09:48] Reminescent: Yea
  1267. [19:10:07] Rool821: HeaLnDeaL 90 pt is 141 def
  1268. [19:10:29] +Snobalt: As more benchmarks, Volk is 134.7087992 PT and 169.3138929 ST
  1269. [19:10:31] Agile Turtle: which is above averAGE, AND PRETTY FINE IMO
  1270. [19:10:43] Agile Turtle: oops
  1271. [19:10:44] @cbrevan: nice capslocks
  1272. [19:10:57] Reminescent: Tbh
  1273. [19:10:58] +Snobalt: As the late boTTT would say, this is the cap room, not the CAPS room
  1274. [19:10:59] Agile Turtle: pls don't point it out cb
  1275. [19:11:05] Agile Turtle: ur making me self conscious
  1276. [19:11:07] Agile Turtle: u bully
  1277. [19:11:12] @cbrevan: back to stats
  1278. [19:11:12] Reminescent: I still want 140-160 PT
  1279. [19:11:14] Reminescent: :]
  1280. [19:11:14] NumberCruncher: *pat pat*
  1281. [19:11:14] Rool821: lol
  1282. [19:11:19] +Snobalt: So what specific hits should we be surviving?
  1283. [19:11:20] Reminescent: Rool :]
  1284. [19:11:22] Rool821: __pat__
  1285. [19:11:30] +Snobalt: Back to CB's threatlist: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-22-part-3-threats-discussion.3576526/page-3#post-6895593
  1286. [19:11:41] #HeaLnDeaL: 90/90 141 = we take less than 75% from metagross BP
  1287. [19:11:42] Rool821: snobalt eq's from collo on ht eswithc in
  1288. [19:11:50] Rool821: killing heatran of course
  1289. [19:12:00] %DarkSlay: We should definitely have an emphasis on PT over ST.
  1290. [19:12:03] Rool821: chomp?
  1291. [19:12:12] Rool821: kyu b?
  1292. [19:12:24] %DarkSlay: Rock, Steel, Fighting, Dark, and Dragon-types listed as things we want to beat.
  1293. [19:12:28] Rool821: the lati's saybyeye
  1294. [19:12:39] Electric-Froggy: We need to lose to more physical things than we do special.
  1295. [19:12:45] Rool821: ^
  1296. [19:12:53] Reminescent: UH
  1297. [19:13:06] NumberCruncher: No, our counters are mostly special
  1298. [19:13:07] Reminescent: i find that weird cause the typing has good physical tankinesd
  1299. [19:13:07] Agile Turtle: the physical things we lose to have SE STABs anyway
  1300. [19:13:10] Rool821: maybye a bit of st
  1301. [19:13:13] Rool821: but more pt def
  1302. [19:13:32] %DarkSlay: A majority of the types identified that we should be beating are primarily Physical attackers, with the exception of Dragon which is more mixed.
  1303. [19:13:32] Agile Turtle: but the physical things we beat we
  1304. [19:13:43] Agile Turtle: ll do fine with at around 140 pt
  1305. [19:13:54] %DarkSlay: I mean, I'll be honest.
  1306. [19:14:21] %DarkSlay: I don't think this thing should have above average defenses in either stat for it to accomplish its job.
  1307. [19:14:28] Rool821: we are going to be htere
  1308. [19:14:32] Rool821: to stop outrage
  1309. [19:14:34] Electric-Froggy: The type's we're beating are all things we have strong SE STAB on.
  1310. [19:14:43] Rool821: yes
  1311. [19:14:54] Agile Turtle: we still want to be able to swtch in
  1312. [19:14:54] %DarkSlay: Okay, but you're going to need to be able to switch into those things.
  1313. [19:15:00] Rool821: as of now as we have not done
  1314. [19:15:05] +Snobalt: Explain what 140 PT would help us survive then
  1315. [19:15:05] Agile Turtle: and longevity is important
  1316. [19:15:05] Rool821: DarkSlay yes thank you
  1317. [19:15:07] %DarkSlay: Especially on coverage.
  1318. [19:15:20] #HeaLnDeaL: 90/90 141 takes on average 50% from tankchomp's EQ... which is a tieensy bit high for my likings personally. not awful tho
  1319. [19:15:35] Rool821: what is 90/90 141
  1320. [19:15:41] Reminescent: Tbh
  1321. [19:15:47] Reminescent: I want 85/97 bulk
  1322. [19:15:48] Agile Turtle: 90/90 is HP/defense
  1323. [19:15:50] Reminescent: :/
  1324. [19:15:51] Rool821: oh
  1325. [19:15:52] Agile Turtle: 141 is the PT
  1326. [19:16:00] Electric-Froggy: With Dragon, we have an immunity to their STAB. Rock and Fighting, we resist. Dark, we doubly resist.
  1327. [19:16:10] +Snobalt: Chances are it'll 2HKO us most of the time unless we do something absurd like 100/100
  1328. [19:16:18] Agile Turtle: we don't resist earthquakes
  1329. [19:16:28] Rool821: yes
  1330. [19:16:36] Rool821: and colo and chomp are things that need to gye
  1331. [19:16:40] Rool821: *die
  1332. [19:16:45] Rool821: also sableye
  1333. [19:16:45] Agile Turtle: hippo/chomp/colo all have it
  1334. [19:16:53] Rool821: which can hard counter us
  1335. [19:17:03] Electric-Froggy: That's why we try not to switch in on an Earthquake...
  1336. [19:17:11] Agile Turtle: try all you want
  1337. [19:17:18] Agile Turtle: doesn't mean you won't
  1338. [19:17:29] Agile Turtle: if PT is too low, this thing becomes risky to use
  1339. [19:17:30] Rool821: we dont want ot only be able to counter things
  1340. [19:17:33] Rool821: if we sack a mon
  1341. [19:17:50] #HeaLnDeaL: 90/100 156 let's us always take less than 50 from chomp eq... which is... rather high for or PT, so uhhh yeah. just don't switch into chomp.
  1342. [19:18:02] #HeaLnDeaL: *for our pt
  1343. [19:18:17] Electric-Froggy: Like I said. :/
  1344. [19:18:28] Reminescent: :/
  1345. [19:18:30] #HeaLnDeaL: ye I'm backing you up with calcs
  1346. [19:18:30] Agile Turtle: 150 is still a perfectly fine limit for PT
  1347. [19:18:31] +Snobalt: Well as long as it doesn't OHKO CAP 22, we can probably OHKO it back with moonblast
  1348. [19:18:40] +Snobalt: 150 is actually what I was considering turtle
  1349. [19:18:43] Rool821: or playrough
  1350. [19:18:45] Agile Turtle: good
  1351. [19:18:47] Agile Turtle: :D
  1352. [19:18:52] +Snobalt: No not play rough
  1353. [19:18:57] #HeaLnDeaL: 150 is reasonable
  1354. [19:18:58] +Snobalt: remember tankchomp is physically defensive
  1355. [19:19:04] Rool821: oh nm\
  1356. [19:19:17] Agile Turtle: also for longevity's sake you don't wanna take rough skin damage
  1357. [19:19:28] Reminescent: ^
  1358. [19:19:34] Reminescent: Agile Turtle ure awesome rn
  1359. [19:19:35] NumberCruncher: 150 get's us 70/110 for stats, which is actually pretty nice
  1360. [19:19:37] Reminescent: :3
  1361. [19:19:41] Agile Turtle: ty
  1362. [19:20:30] @cbrevan: /announce we're heavily considering 150 for pt
  1363. [19:20:40] Rool821: yes
  1364. [19:20:54] @cbrevan: now onto special tankiness
  1365. [19:21:19] Alfalfa: What did I miss
  1366. [19:21:26] Electric-Froggy: And what does 150 leave us taking from Mega Metagross and Scizor?
  1367. [19:21:26] NumberCruncher: ST doesn't need to be that big. Most of our Counters are going to be attacking that stat
  1368. [19:21:32] Alfalfa: Why are we using 150 PT
  1369. [19:21:37] Reminescent: Tbh i want 100-130 ST
  1370. [19:21:54] Reminescent: Maybe even 90
  1371. [19:22:20] Alfalfa: test
  1372. [19:22:24] NumberCruncher: I think 125 is perfectly reasonable as a max
  1373. [19:22:27] +Snobalt: Well alfalfa we didn't get many specifics, but after a couple calcs (like on tankchomp) it seems reasonable enough
  1374. [19:22:34] Electric-Froggy: With 130 ST, we're still easily OHKO'd by Megazard Y and Analytic Volkraken.
  1375. [19:22:37] #HeaLnDeaL: electric froggy, cb scizor KOes us with 150
  1376. [19:22:45] Reminescent: Thats a good thing
  1377. [19:23:06] Rool821: NumberCruncher we should have semi high maxes for flexibility but we arent going to go full max all
  1378. [19:23:09] Reminescent: Cause zard y and volkraken already pressure us anywau
  1379. [19:23:26] Electric-Froggy: Exactly, so there's no need to limit it to 125.
  1380. [19:23:37] NumberCruncher: Frankly, 125 seems like an egregiously high max
  1381. [19:23:48] +Snobalt: What would it interfere with, NC?
  1382. [19:24:29] Agile Turtle: most of the spreads I've been playing with have had 110-120 ST
  1383. [19:24:33] NumberCruncher: Mollux ought to OHKO it
  1384. [19:24:36] #HeaLnDeaL: Rem, not like our stabs even hit kraken and volc, so their damage calcs are rather irrelevant
  1385. [19:24:37] Agile Turtle: si 130 ST seems like a fine max
  1386. [19:25:03] Reminescent: Yea
  1387. [19:25:12] #HeaLnDeaL: I think we should calc looking at tomo tbh
  1388. [19:25:26] Electric-Froggy: Hell, even at 80/100, we still get cleanly KO'd by Megazard Y's Fire Blast and more than KO'd by Analytic Volkraken.
  1389. [19:25:31] +Snobalt: why heal
  1390. [19:25:34] Agile Turtle: tomo murders no matter what tbh
  1391. [19:25:53] #HeaLnDeaL: defensive hawk
  1392. [19:25:56] #HeaLnDeaL: air slash
  1393. [19:26:03] Electric-Froggy: We are supposed to beat Tomohawk, AT.
  1394. [19:26:13] Agile Turtle: we do
  1395. [19:26:14] #HeaLnDeaL: we should try to survive tomo's air slash
  1396. [19:26:19] Agile Turtle: we'e faster
  1397. [19:26:24] #HeaLnDeaL: agile, tomo is
  1398. [19:26:25] Agile Turtle: eh that's a reasonable benchmark
  1399. [19:26:26] #HeaLnDeaL: bulky
  1400. [19:26:31] Alfalfa: We should survive Tomo's Air Slash, but not AV Torn-T's Hurricane
  1401. [19:26:32] #HeaLnDeaL: we don't always OHKO
  1402. [19:26:34] Agile Turtle: lemme calc
  1403. [19:26:56] Newcomer1: should we survive a keldeo hydro pump?
  1404. [19:27:01] +Snobalt: It doesn't take much to avoid the OHKO from air slash
  1405. [19:27:04] #HeaLnDeaL: assuming sr damag, we only need around 90/80 to survive airslash
  1406. [19:27:06] +Snobalt: Newcomer1 there's no way we're surviving specs
  1407. [19:27:20] NumberCruncher: And Sracf beats us anyway
  1408. [19:27:25] Alfalfa: We are not switching in on Keldeo
  1409. [19:27:47] +Snobalt: heal how many sp atk EVs does that tomo set run?
  1410. [19:27:47] Alfalfa: Our CAP would be way too bulky to not be broken for that
  1411. [19:27:53] #HeaLnDeaL: 4
  1412. [19:27:59] #HeaLnDeaL: or 0
  1413. [19:28:03] #HeaLnDeaL: basically same thing
  1414. [19:28:31] Newcomer1: we should survive scarf keldeo though if we want to threaten it, what we want according to the threatlist
  1415. [19:28:35] @cbrevan: 90/90 is enough for us to be ohkoed by av torn
  1416. [19:28:36] Agile Turtle: 0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 210-248 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  1417. [19:28:42] Agile Turtle: aboma is 90/85
  1418. [19:28:46] +Snobalt: Assuming a naive nature, somewhere in the 120 range is enough ST to avoid the ohko
  1419. [19:28:46] Electric-Froggy: We can afford a bit more ST since our special checks hit VERY hard.
  1420. [19:28:48] Agile Turtle: we can reasonably go a bit lower
  1421. [19:29:12] #HeaLnDeaL: 90/85 is 136
  1422. [19:29:25] Agile Turtle: but we can still go lower
  1423. [19:29:30] Electric-Froggy: That seems fairly reasonable.
  1424. [19:29:31] Agile Turtle: we don't need 90/85
  1425. [19:29:39] #HeaLnDeaL: ye, as I said before we can go 90/80
  1426. [19:29:39] Agile Turtle: I just did it with aboma's base stats lol
  1427. [19:30:28] Agile Turtle: 0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 200-236 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  1428. [19:30:34] Agile Turtle: I changed it to 60/90
  1429. [19:30:39] #HeaLnDeaL: also... becaue of mixed I'm calcing with naive
  1430. [19:30:54] Reminescent: Yea
  1431. [19:30:57] Agile Turtle: oh I forgot the ne lolatur
  1432. [19:31:03] Agile Turtle: nature lol*
  1433. [19:31:04] Alfalfa: I am calcing 89/71 and that avoids the OHKO but not after Stealth Rock
  1434. [19:31:07] Electric-Froggy: I have been calcing with Hasty.
  1435. [19:31:14] #HeaLnDeaL: 4 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Lucario: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (assuming 90/80)
  1436. [19:31:16] Reminescent: :[
  1437. [19:31:33] Rool821: times up
  1438. [19:31:37] Reminescent: Can we do like higher HP and try to equate de damage
  1439. [19:31:37] Rool821: its beed 2 hrs
  1440. [19:31:39] Reminescent: Tip
  1441. [19:31:41] Alfalfa: No
  1442. [19:31:45] Reminescent: Rip*
  1443. [19:31:47] Alfalfa: That can risk BSR abuse
  1444. [19:31:50] Rool821: idk
  1445. [19:31:52] Reminescent: O
  1446. [19:31:53] Electric-Froggy: Reminescent, that is in the next part of the CAP.
  1447. [19:31:57] NumberCruncher: So what we've established is that non-offensive Tomohawk is not offensive in the slightest
  1448. [19:32:03] Alfalfa: 89 / 90 base HP is all we need
  1449. [19:32:13] Agile Turtle: 0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Abomasnow: 222-264 (79 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  1450. [19:32:14] #HeaLnDeaL: I mean, CAP taking 90% still sucks
  1451. [19:32:18] Agile Turtle: that's 70/90
  1452. [19:32:21] #HeaLnDeaL: workable for us
  1453. [19:32:31] #HeaLnDeaL: but still sucks
  1454. [19:32:33] NumberCruncher: We should actually avoid a Stealth Rocks+air slash kill
  1455. [19:32:33] Alfalfa: Agile Turtle
  1456. [19:32:40] #HeaLnDeaL: and if we're not LO, we can't reliably OHKO tomo
  1457. [19:32:45] Alfalfa: cbrevan's PT metrics factored in base 90 HP
  1458. [19:33:12] @cbrevan: /announce we're heavily considering 135 for st
  1459. [19:33:21] Electric-Froggy: Yeah, but you can change that and still have the same PT. That's what the entire Stat stage after this is all about...
  1460. [19:33:32] Agile Turtle: we don't decide on base HP during stat limts, sweetie ;)
  1461. [19:33:56] Electric-Froggy: We are deciding only the BSR limits.
  1462. [19:34:06] Alfalfa: Base 90 HP was the reference stat he spoke of
  1463. [19:34:15] #HeaLnDeaL: 135 seems... reasonable. there's a bit of wiggle room, but not a lot. so reasonable
  1464. [19:34:24] +Snobalt: So that leaves the unofficial limits as: 180 PS, 150 PT, 220 SS, and 135 ST
  1465. [19:34:29] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  1466. [19:34:31] Electric-Froggy: And we can CHANGE THAT in stats submissions...
  1467. [19:34:31] Alfalfa: 160 PT
  1468. [19:34:41] Agile Turtle: and what's wrong with me wanting 60 HP alfy
  1469. [19:34:41] NumberCruncher: Seems fair. For BSR 330 should definitely not be crossed.
  1470. [19:34:44] Alfalfa: Your desired avoiding 2HKO from Garchomp needs 160 PT
  1471. [19:34:55] Alfalfa: Check it if you need to
  1472. [19:35:03] #HeaLnDeaL: we decided not to switch into garchmop I thought
  1473. [19:35:09] +Snobalt: Yeah we didn't
  1474. [19:35:11] #HeaLnDeaL: ... garchmop
  1475. [19:35:11] Electric-Froggy: ^
  1476. [19:35:20] +Snobalt: As long as we avoid the 2HKO we can OHKO it with moonblast without problems
  1477. [19:35:22] Alfalfa: This is what cbrevan told me though
  1478. [19:35:26] %DarkSlay: Joke's on you Heal.
  1479. [19:35:28] @cbrevan: i'm just a dumb, ignore me
  1480. [19:35:33] %DarkSlay: I'm running Balloon CAP22.
  1481. [19:35:44] #HeaLnDeaL: i love you cbro
  1482. [19:35:49] NumberCruncher: Hardest counter to Lando in the game
  1483. [19:35:53] Reminescent: 0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Abomasnow: 260-308 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  1484. [19:35:59] +Snobalt: So now that we have that out of the way, we need a real BSR limit
  1485. [19:36:05] Reminescent: This is after 1 LO hit and rocks
  1486. [19:36:12] Alfalfa: So are we using 150 PT or 160 PT
  1487. [19:36:13] Alfalfa: Snobalt
  1488. [19:36:14] Reminescent: It still doesnt ohko after rocks
  1489. [19:36:19] +Snobalt: 150
  1490. [19:36:19] Alfalfa: After the factoring in new BSr calc
  1491. [19:36:27] Alfalfa: What for
  1492. [19:36:27] Reminescent: This is 115/74 bulk
  1493. [19:36:32] Reminescent: And naive
  1494. [19:36:37] #HeaLnDeaL: undoubtedly I think our bsr limit should be below 350. maybe even more like 340
  1495. [19:36:48] #HeaLnDeaL: or 330 is fairly restrictive
  1496. [19:37:11] Agile Turtle: 330 is reasonable imo
  1497. [19:37:20] +Snobalt: 330 is too low imo
  1498. [19:37:31] Alfalfa: I think it should be at 360
  1499. [19:37:38] Agile Turtle: no
  1500. [19:37:44] Agile Turtle: it should not be bove 350
  1501. [19:37:51] Newcomer1: I think 340 seems like a good limit
  1502. [19:38:01] %DarkSlay: I'm for 330.
  1503. [19:38:11] NumberCruncher: at 340, we can actually reach pretty close to max on far more of the benchmarks than is probably desirable
  1504. [19:38:13] Agile Turtle: if it's at 360 I'm pretty sure you can hit almost every limit we decided and still be within bsr limit
  1505. [19:38:15] #HeaLnDeaL: DS did you get the new calc
  1506. [19:38:17] %DarkSlay: Yep.
  1507. [19:38:21] Animaignis: Hey can someone fill me in where we're at?
  1508. [19:38:25] %DarkSlay: I'm running some test spreads in here.
  1509. [19:38:28] Agile Turtle: that's insane
  1510. [19:38:34] %DarkSlay: Oh wait.
  1511. [19:38:43] %DarkSlay: Was there a new calc after the one you gave me?
  1512. [19:38:56] %DarkSlay: Or was the one you sent me the one you're talking about?
  1513. [19:39:42] #HeaLnDeaL: there's a new one
  1514. [19:39:46] %DarkSlay: o
  1515. [19:39:47] #HeaLnDeaL: because jas logged on
  1516. [19:39:51] Alfalfa: 350 then, and never anything lower
  1517. [19:39:54] #HeaLnDeaL: and brought forth it
  1518. [19:39:55] %DarkSlay: Could you PM it to me?
  1519. [19:39:56] Alfalfa: Wait
  1520. [19:39:59] Animaignis: Are all the limits going to be posted in the main page on Smogon?
  1521. [19:40:01] Reminescent: Brb guys
  1522. [19:40:01] Alfalfa: HealLnDeaL
  1523. [19:40:02] Reminescent: Cua
  1524. [19:40:04] #HeaLnDeaL: 350 seems reasonable
  1525. [19:40:05] %DarkSlay: Maybe that might help.
  1526. [19:40:08] Animaignis: Like, in the stat discussion page
  1527. [19:40:11] Alfalfa: Jas updated it a third time?
  1528. [19:40:24] #HeaLnDeaL: yes
  1529. [19:40:25] %DarkSlay: I was getting some incredible stat spreads and didn't even scratch 330.
  1530. [19:40:29] %DarkSlay: lol
  1531. [19:40:35] Electric-Froggy: You're welcome for catching that, by the way. :P
  1532. [19:40:38] #HeaLnDeaL: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xfe6R2JZXEgD8jTqHy5jmBPEeGJJTZCo_IIiFPFrVLw/pub?output=xlsx
  1533. [19:40:49] %DarkSlay: thankeeeee
  1534. [19:40:53] #HeaLnDeaL: I have one stat spread rn of
  1535. [19:41:12] Alfalfa: HeaLnDeaL
  1536. [19:41:26] Alfalfa: That "updated" calc is showing up as the same one I downloaded an hour ago
  1537. [19:41:41] Alfalfa: Are you sure she did not just update it
  1538. [19:41:51] #HeaLnDeaL: 90/100/90/115/80/115 bst 590 (so kinda high) and it's saying bsr 350
  1539. [19:41:56] Electric-Froggy: Jas is a guy...
  1540. [19:42:02] #HeaLnDeaL: I don't really want anything higher than that
  1541. [19:42:07] Rool821: wb it?
  1542. [19:42:14] Agile Turtle: Heal cut it to 580 imo ;)
  1543. [19:42:24] Rool821: nah
  1544. [19:42:36] Electric-Froggy: 590 is not "kinda high." :P
  1545. [19:42:45] temperarious: .dt aurumoth
  1546. [19:42:46] Alfalfa: HeaLnDeaL is the BSR calc I downloaded after Jas posted on the thread the most updated version?
  1547. [19:42:50] Rool821: its hte disrtibution
  1548. [19:43:01] Rool821: its fine for a mixed mon
  1549. [19:43:05] #HeaLnDeaL: the one jas posted in the thread is the most updated version yes
  1550. [19:43:11] Alfalfa: Good
  1551. [19:43:26] Electric-Froggy: HeaL, can you PM me the updated formulae on IRC?
  1552. [19:43:40] Alfalfa: Electric-Froggy
  1553. [19:43:50] Alfalfa: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xfe6R2JZXEgD8jTqHy5jmBPEeGJJTZCo_IIiFPFrVLw/pub?output=xlsx
  1554. [19:44:25] Electric-Froggy: ...I don't use the calc, i do it by hand.
  1555. [19:44:40] Animaignis: o_0
  1556. [19:44:54] #HeaLnDeaL: I'm kinda too lazy to change the cell's name to match the corresponding base stat x.x
  1557. [19:45:14] #HeaLnDeaL: but you should be smart enough to figure out what the cells correspond to
  1558. [19:45:34] %DarkSlay: I mean, I'm still getting some pretty good spreads with well below 330.
  1559. [19:45:34] #HeaLnDeaL: since PT tells you it's hp and defense involved in the calc, for example
  1560. [19:45:53] #HeaLnDeaL: post a spread here DarkSlay
  1561. [19:46:01] %DarkSlay: What was the ST value chosen?
  1562. [19:46:18] Electric-Froggy: 135?
  1563. [19:46:31] Electric-Froggy: Yeah, 135.
  1564. [19:46:54] Animaignis: wow, already 2h10min
  1565. [19:47:08] Animaignis: approximatley anyways
  1566. [19:47:19] %DarkSlay: I'm currently rocking 100/80/80/120/70/130.
  1567. [19:47:34] Agile Turtle: I hit almost 345 BSR with 70/100/110/110/90/120 at 600 BST
  1568. [19:47:41] Electric-Froggy: Damn, 120 is a bit... Fuck, what did I miss?
  1569. [19:47:42] Agile Turtle: I feel like this is too much
  1570. [19:47:43] %DarkSlay: And I'm just under 330.
  1571. [19:48:06] Agile Turtle: and we should limit to 340
  1572. [19:48:18] Alfalfa: I say 350
  1573. [19:48:19] Animaignis: I've been looking at 75/110/80/115/60/120, which has 316. Not sure if the stats are within the ranges completely since I missed a bitl.
  1574. [19:48:29] Animaignis: I think 340 is a solid range.
  1575. [19:48:37] Animaignis: Maybe lower
  1576. [19:48:48] +Snobalt: I think that's significantly too frail
  1577. [19:49:05] +Snobalt: Honestly I keep plugging stuff in and the limit I keep getting is 355
  1578. [19:49:10] +Snobalt: I'll see if we can get it lower than that
  1579. [19:49:20] %DarkSlay: I would compromise to 335 if that's something people would be interested in.
  1580. [19:49:35] Agile Turtle: if you make it >345
  1581. [19:49:50] Agile Turtle: I'll probably just submit that 600 bst spread then lol
  1582. [19:49:50] Electric-Froggy: 335 seems like a fair limit.
  1583. [19:50:01] Agile Turtle: 70/100/110/110/90/120
  1584. [19:50:18] Agile Turtle: and I still think that spread is a bit too strong
  1585. [19:50:39] Agile Turtle: which is why I think the limit should be 340 at most
  1586. [19:50:42] #HeaLnDeaL: I think 335 is even a bit low
  1587. [19:50:48] #HeaLnDeaL: I'd be fine with 340
  1588. [19:50:52] Alfalfa: 350 and you get 89 / 110 / 82 / 126 / 71 / 111
  1589. [19:51:01] Alfalfa: Which is 350
  1590. [19:51:27] boxofkangaroos: Have the limits been officially decided?
  1591. [19:51:34] Newcomer1: I like 340
  1592. [19:51:45] +Snobalt: Not yet
  1593. [19:51:50] @cbrevan: we're doing bsr rn
  1594. [19:51:58] Alfalfa: Snobalt where you do leen on BSR? 350? 340?
  1595. [19:52:02] %DarkSlay: I don't really understand the need for having near balanced attacking stats, we're going to be relying mostly on Physical Fighting STAB most of anything tbh.
  1596. [19:52:06] Alfalfa: I think 350 is not that out of question
  1597. [19:52:24] Animaignis: same
  1598. [19:52:27] %DarkSlay: But different strokes, I suppose.
  1599. [19:52:37] Alfalfa: It reaches most of our offensive limits but tones down on PT
  1600. [19:52:41] Alfalfa: ANd speed
  1601. [19:52:45] %DarkSlay: 350 is incredibly high, and tbh, doesn't present much of a challenge nor a necessity.
  1602. [19:53:23] Alfalfa: I am proposing 350 because if you checked the logs it is necessary if we want to reach our offensive limits
  1603. [19:54:20] #HeaLnDeaL: if you want our offensive limits, then you need to cut down on tankiness. that's how BSR works.
  1604. [19:54:25] Agile Turtle: we don't have to reach our offensive limits
  1605. [19:54:34] #HeaLnDeaL: you can't have the limits for something without cutting back on something else
  1606. [19:54:35] Agile Turtle: you're gonna have to compromis
  1607. [19:54:57] %DarkSlay: What's the PS on this thing again? Sorry, kind of forget as we go along.
  1608. [19:55:12] +Snobalt: 150 iirc
  1609. [19:55:16] %DarkSlay: lol
  1610. [19:55:24] %DarkSlay: Okie dokie.
  1611. [19:55:39] %DarkSlay: Yeah, 340 is the highest I'd allow.
  1612. [19:55:44] %DarkSlay: If it were me running stats.
  1613. [19:56:10] %DarkSlay: I think optimal is 335, so 340 gives a 5 margin of error.
  1614. [19:56:16] %DarkSlay: Or w/e you want to call it.
  1615. [19:56:23] Master Mewking: allo
  1616. [19:56:39] #HeaLnDeaL: I think it's very very hard to hit more than one limit with 340
  1617. [19:56:44] #HeaLnDeaL: which is a good thing
  1618. [19:56:48] Alfalfa: I was over the PS limit anyways
  1619. [19:56:58] #HeaLnDeaL: I mean I have some spreads right now not hitting any limits and still going over 335
  1620. [19:56:58] Alfalfa: So 350 is not as accurate
  1621. [19:57:18] %DarkSlay: That's fine. 340 sounds like a good maximum then.
  1622. [19:57:24] @cbrevan: what are you getting now alfalfa?
  1623. [19:57:30] NumberCruncher: I can live with 340
  1624. [19:57:39] Sabernite: HeaLnDeaL
  1625. [19:58:01] #HeaLnDeaL: yeah?
  1626. [19:58:18] Sabernite: Can i ask you something via PM?
  1627. [19:58:22] #HeaLnDeaL: sure
  1628. [19:58:25] Alfalfa: 330
  1629. [19:58:38] Alfalfa: cbrevan
  1630. [19:59:11] +Snobalt: signing off; CB will wrap this up
  1631. [19:59:15] %sUnfishED: gdi I missed this stage
  1632. [19:59:20] %sUnfishED: :(
  1633. [19:59:23] Rool821: 6
  1634. [19:59:36] @cbrevan: /announce we're heavily considering 345 for bsr
  1635. [19:59:41] #HeaLnDeaL: honestly I'd be fine with something like 337/338, but weird numbers are weird (most of my "high" spread versions only go over 335 by a tiny bit
  1636. [20:00:11] Agile Turtle: then heavily consider that I can submit 70/100/110/110/90/120
  1637. [20:00:11] %DarkSlay: Why 345?
  1638. [20:00:20] Agile Turtle: 340
  1639. [20:00:28] %DarkSlay: I didn't see anyone discuss 345 yet. x_x
  1640. [20:00:37] @cbrevan: we realized 340 is the max everyone likes, but we'd like to give a little bit more leeway
  1641. [20:01:08] Agile Turtle: then do 344
  1642. [20:01:26] %DarkSlay: I'm afraid that will lead to spreads that provide too much maximum utility in multiple areas. I don't think we need this CAP to run the risk of being generally "good".
  1643. [20:01:27] Agile Turtle: ot70/100/110/110/90/120 should not be allowed imho
  1644. [20:01:30] #HeaLnDeaL: cbrevan
  1645. [20:01:38] @cbrevan: hi
  1646. [20:01:47] #HeaLnDeaL: the point of having higher maxes was for ST/PT/SS/PS
  1647. [20:01:55] #HeaLnDeaL: not necessarily for BSR
  1648. [20:02:25] @cbrevan: i'm personally fine w/ 140, but 145 is what me and snobalt talked about before he had to leave
  1649. [20:02:34] NumberCruncher: 340 should be an absolute max
  1650. [20:02:42] #HeaLnDeaL: high category limits but middling total limits leaves room for plenty of variation
  1651. [20:03:00] %DarkSlay: I would not advise 345 personally.
  1652. [20:03:05] @cbrevan: as i said, 345 is what we got before he left
  1653. [20:03:18] @cbrevan: i will talk to him later about 340
  1654. [20:03:21] Agile Turtle: cb the reason I support 340 is so that the spread I keep posting is not possible
  1655. [20:03:52] Agile Turtle: I would actually go for more like 335
  1656. [20:04:08] #HeaLnDeaL: alright, well with snobalt gone and almost everything decided, I guess now is a fair stopping point
  1657. [20:04:21] @cbrevan: anyways thank you all for participating with the discussion
  1658. [20:04:27] %DarkSlay: Thanks everyone!
  1659. [20:04:32] Alfalfa: Good
  1660. [20:04:37] #HeaLnDeaL: snobalt and cbrevan have more than enough information from the discussion to make their final decisions later
  1661. [20:04:41] Alfalfa: I have exhausted myself from being overly stubborn
  1662. [20:04:50] #HeaLnDeaL: so we'll anticipate the final results soon : )
  1663. [20:04:52] @cbrevan: you guys made it relatively easy for us, great job everyone
  1664. [20:05:00] +vulpix mayhem: o.o
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