Great Chat with Nyokokol!

Nyokolol: anyone with a brain would see it pie, it can remove counters that stop your other sweepers from sweeping and just trap them

Nyokolol: I was supporting you by the way haha
Nyokolol: if someone says that mega gengar isn't broken they are probably stupid
Piexplode: I know lol
Piexplode: I'm glad to hear your opinion
Nyokolol: do you think they'd ban it though?
Piexplode: first time I've seen someone without authority (and for that matter only probably ladder experience) speaking really intelligently
Piexplode: there's murmurs of it
Piexplode: I can see that
Piexplode: if a discussion gets going of it
Nyokolol: I listen to edgar a lot so i get a lot of my ubers knowledge from him haha
Piexplode: there would be support from some of the best players of the tier
Piexplode: ahhh okay
Piexplode: that would explain a lot
Piexplode: he's a really great player
Nyokolol: like idk mega gengar just fucks team building in its ass
Piexplode: one of the best of the best in XY imo
Piexplode: yeah it really does lol
Nyokolol: like if you're using ekiller and need skarm and ferro removed just run hp fire mega gengar
Nyokolol: or geomancy xerneas
Nyokolol: which personally i think is stupidly broken but who doesn't think that..
Piexplode: indeed or if you're teambuilding for stall then you have
Piexplode: to have scizor for pursuit for example and then something that assumes that you beat gar but didn't keep scizor e.g. destiny bond which is commoner than hp fire altho hp fire is good
Piexplode: and then u find scizor offers no synergy in reality whatsoever as a consequence
Nyokolol: exactly its just stupid, when people say mega gengar isn't the best stall breaker i just question them
Piexplode: it's like ur teambuilding iwth 5 mons AND have a coinflip versus certain matchups as to whether you get to win ignoring the rest of the battle
Piexplode: it depends what you mean by stall breaker but
Nyokolol: it can just remove whatever poke stops your sweeper
Piexplode: in a fundamentalsense, making stall weaker as a playstyle it achieves like nothing else
Piexplode: in sheer sweeping potential mewtwo Y is probably the best I think, lacking any real true counter due to its wide coverage and raw power
Nyokolol: i think ubers would just be a lot more balanced without mega gengar and powerherb xerneas
Nyokolol: it'd actually be a great tier without powerherb xerneas tbh
Piexplode: well xerneas is a different kettle of fish
Nyokolol: xerneas can actually be countered although barely
Piexplode: there's nothing really wrong with such a good sweeper in some ways, especially seeing that if you removed gengar you'd have more teamslots to beat it anyway
Nyokolol: unlike mega gar
Piexplode: yeah xern you can't really counter but you can run several checks without huge loss of synergy which is how
Piexplode: it's not quite so bad
Piexplode: anyway good teams tend to operate more on several soft checks to most threats than to hard counters since that is lwoer-risk in some ways but it also defines offense a lot more than stall
Nyokolol: yeah its impossible to bring a hard check to every mon on an ubers team
Piexplode: agreed, although in previous generations I think that sort of play was possible in some tiers
Nyokolol: Yeah like in gen 4 i think you could probably pull that off in OU
Piexplode: yeah well ther ewas
Piexplode: actually
Nyokolol: because nothing was really op back then
Piexplode: a famous stal team that I remember
Piexplode: reading the RMT about
Piexplode: probbably if you google Obistall
Piexplode: I might even have a copy of it somewhere it was by David Stone and it was like
Piexplode: celebi hippo spiritomb blissey and 2 other things
Nyokolol: o ye i just foudn it
Piexplode: beautiful little team
Piexplode: :)
Nyokolol: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stall-team.47785/
Piexplode: I really love
Piexplode: how he explains
Piexplode: the process behind it all as well
Piexplode: I mean
Piexplode: it's just a different way of viewing the same issues but it is important
Piexplode: in some tiers what matters more is having answers to different threats
Piexplode: in others that's less pressing but having the appropriate supporting moves is te more pressing issue
Nyokolol: well like you or someone else said in the chat, ubers is really based on finding the right team match ups
Piexplode: yeah it wasn't me but I totally concur
Piexplode: I think with removing gar
Piexplode: and seeing how the new meta takes shape
Piexplode: which is currently a bit unpredictable
Piexplode: then maybe it'll become less so
Piexplode: tbh I think offensive mewtwo Y and stalltwo as well as geoxern would probably be the true dominating forcs
Nyokolol: hopefully people won't use the same argument that people in ou are using right now lol, everyone says "all these bans are taking place because people want stall"
Piexplode: as they're really difficult to properly handle in stall
Piexplode: yh Ik what u mean nyko
Piexplode: I was speaking with Hack
Piexplode: about why he'd want tag removed and
Piexplode: well he sorta said
Piexplode: what it comes down to is
Piexplode: about what skill in pokemon is
Piexplode: now I'm still to personally contemplate that question and I think it's highly fundamental but
Piexplode: either way
Piexplode: his answer was that it was switching
Piexplode: and essentially his arguement centers around the idea that shadow tag reduces this skill within the metaga
Piexplode: *metagame
Piexplode: I actually pastebinned the conversation
Piexplode: http://pastebin.com/iTCWHXEy
Nyokolol: Thats a pretty good point to be honest, it really doesn't take much skill to mega evolve one turn and then you can just trap whatever you need to the turn they send in that certain poke
Nyokolol: and then d bond something, its just so stupid
Piexplode: yeah I mean
Piexplode: in a pragmatic sense it can be
Piexplode: a bit more complex than that but
Piexplode: the practice isn't too far from the theory
Nyokolol: I mean I remember when it got ban from OU, everyone freaked out including myself because nobody realized it got ban because of its supporting aspects not because of its offensive aspects
Nyokolol: and here we are now discussing why it should go in ubers
Nyokolol: but I agree with what you said on that mega mewtwo y/x and Geomancy xern would become dominant
Piexplode: mewtwo x
Piexplode: not really
Piexplode: it kinda has to go mixed to be a threat
Piexplode: it's not a good mon, it's usable but
Piexplode: idk it's really underwhelming
Nyokolol: You think so? I've used its stall break set before and i thought it was pretty good
Piexplode: well I mean it has 4MSS comparable to pokemon like gira-o
Piexplode: it just is waled by
Piexplode: a lot of pokemon
Piexplode: it's a crap stallbreaker really
Piexplode: I mean it's probably oaky versus balance
Piexplode: and checking ekiller is decent but
Piexplode: that's like all that's going for it really
Nyokolol: good point
Piexplode: stalltwo on the other hand
Piexplode: even in the gengar meta
Piexplode: that is
Piexplode: well team-destroying really
Piexplode: balance/stall has issues handling it
Piexplode: for a start
Piexplode: unless u have a physically-based scarfer or scarfogre I guess then it's difficult to really handle; it's more a mon that is designed to
Piexplode: be revenge killed than switched in on
Piexplode: and to get it in isn't too hard since there's mons that it threatens and it can come in when a mon on your side dies
Nyokolol: Does it also open up paths for sweepers? like xern
Nyokolol: zekrom even
Nyokolol: you could kill groudon and just start freely clicking bolt strike
Piexplode: it's not even about
Piexplode: opening up paths for sweepers
Piexplode: it's more about causing havoc
Piexplode: spreading burns
Piexplode: preventing recovery
Piexplode: hitting with psychic stab attacks
Nyokolol: that actually sounds like something i wanna try now
Nyokolol: I'm gonna go to the gym for a bit and ill probably be back on in two hours, are you gonna be on then?
Piexplode: umm
Piexplode: it'll be
Piexplode: 4am by them
Piexplode: so I think I'll probably go tbh
Piexplode: xD
Piexplode: but yeah maybe speak to edgar about stalltwo that mon
Nyokolol: well shit hahahaha well I'll cya tomorrow then!
Piexplode: is one to fuck shit up
Piexplode: yeah sure bud
Piexplode: ;)
Nyokolol: have a good one
Piexplode: you too