<Vryheid> I gotta find some way to respond to this massive scribe of violence this slanders guy posted
<InvictusZero> Unown: same way you can be the goodguy savior of the world despite using three versions of the Devil as your Personas
<Vryheid> I'm hoping invictus has realized that his delusions of peace and fairness in pokemon is now futile and that all pokemon fanfics should be about torching nidoran babies
<InvictusZero> Vryheid did you read that discussion Unown and I had the other day?
<Vryheid> some of it
<Vryheid> ideals vs morals
<Unown> Vryheid: To be fair, Pokemon are fairly resistant to getting torched it seems.
<Vryheid> the problem I have with this guy's writing is that it comes off as really try-hard edgy at first like he's making the guy swear so much its offputting
<ThatGuywiththatOneAshfic> http://i.4cdn.org/co/1441337769422.jpg
<ThatGuywiththatOneAshfic> hehehehe
<Vryheid> once it gets going it's really good but he can't just make bastard come off to be some meathead arnold schwarzeneggar type
<Vryheid> and the actual arnold is cool, bastard is not
<so_s> http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=48976218
<so_s> wud u
<InvictusZero> Vryheid: more like ideals vs reality, unless you're a fan of Nietzsche
<Vryheid> once it gets going though it's really good
<Vryheid> I like the whole nietzche vs kant moral debate
<ThatGuywiththatOneAshfic> http://i.4cdn.org/co/1441334170801.jpg
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* DreamWeaver has quit (Quit: Gotta go fluff it up irl)
<Vryheid> he also copied this whole snorlax is the toughest pokemon ever spiel which I didn't get in game of champions and I don't get now
<Vryheid> why does snorlax have to be some unstoppable 20 ton monster of death
<InvictusZero> basically I was arguing against idealism in fiction because overstating the power of ideals is unrealistic to the point where it lowers verisimilitude
<Krouscht> Explain
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<Vryheid> invictus I think whether or not you think as an individual that idealism should be in fiction is irrelevant
<Vryheid> the fact is that idealism is what drives a lot of people and therefore it MUST be in fiction whether you personally like it or not
<InvictusZero> I've come to the conclusion than my setting can at best only attain a local maximum; even if implemented perfectly, it could never be great
<InvictusZero> it's about how much actual power is assigned to "being right"
<InvictusZero> fiction frequently portrays "good" winning over "evil" by merit of its morals (often with ludicrous excuses) when this is not how it works in reality
<Vryheid> reality is though that often nobody really gets what they want
<Krouscht> You know what wins really often, Invictus?
<Krouscht> .yt Lodsamoney
<Internets> :: YouTube BF HARDLINE: LODSAMONEY :: URL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQVLiTK0J6w (01:38) :: Views 278 :: Rating [+] 4 likes [-] 0 dislikes ::
<Vryheid> you can shape ideas and history after the fact but even the "winning" side ends up fucking themselves over quite often
<Vryheid> my problem with a lot of fics is that they give you quick and easy answers to everything
<Vryheid> they never make you ask if the protagonists did the right thing or if there was a better way
<Krouscht> .yt Loadsamoney
<Internets> :: YouTube Harry Enfield:  loadsamoney :: URL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON-7v4qnHP8 (03:20) :: Views 2,864,435 :: Rating [+] 31,501 likes [-] 512 dislikes ::
<Vryheid> that's why I kind of liked the ending to The Last of Us, it made a lot of people angry
<Krouscht> Correct version
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<InvictusZero> vryheid: and pretending that the "good ending" exists or that victory is assured if you're on the "right" side is what makes stories unbelievable
<Krouscht> EHL OH DEE ES OV EE EM OH EN EE
<Krouscht> WOT'ZAT SPELL?
<Krouscht> LOADSMONEY
<Krouscht> (prob'ly)
<Krouscht> Anyways I'm off to bed
<Krouscht> G'dnight
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<Vryheid> happy endings are lame
<Vryheid> I kept reading that chapter and thinking "if your only advice for surviving half the pokemon is not encountering them in the first place, you need more fucking training"
<Vryheid> you'd think after seeing the decapitated nidoking heads you'd be like "hey guys maybe we should head back and regroup for a bit"
<Vryheid> "maybe we should send that flying pokemon we should have brought in the first place to scout ahead"
<InvictusZero> well it was Command's bright idea to send a bunch of noobs on the road of pain
<Vryheid> "maybe we should camoflage our scent so grumpy bearlax can't spot us as easily"
<Vryheid> maybe we should bring a halfway decent battling pokemon so we don't get our asses wrecked"
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<InvictusZero> you know what was kinda weird about the chapter? the early part about Amber sounded like the author was taking out his frustration over someone he knew; then he realized that his protag now sounded like a /pol/tard, so he had him agree with liberal opinions
<Vryheid> the liberal opinions came out of fucking nowhere
<Vryheid> like really
<InvictusZero> exactly
<Vryheid> you telling me an assclown like bastard suddenly cares about global warming
<InvictusZero> like the author felt he had to compensate for something
<Vryheid> no the only thing this guy cares about is guns, sex, and evolving his fucking magikarp
<Unown> What are we talking about here?
<Vryheid> this monster of a chapter unown
<Unown> From?
<Vryheid> if you have some time I highly recommend reading it
<Vryheid> I mentioned it in the vp thread
<InvictusZero> https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11463818/3/The-Saga-of-Kings-Book-I-Hero
<Vryheid> it's easily the biggest single chapter I've ever seen on fanfiction.net
<Vryheid> I don't know why he didn't split it up
<Vryheid> but still it's very good writing
<Unown> >48000 words
<Unown> >chapter
<Unown> why.png
<Unown> >58000 words total
<so_s> http://www.animemaru.com/oblivious-mother-happy-to-hear-her-sons-friend-group-going-on-about-their-love-lives/
<Vryheid> invictus what made me upset about the whole passage is that I was so ready for some serious character arcs
<Vryheid> like finally they got away from the big threat, time for amber to reveal her past and become more cooperative with bastard
<Vryheid> time for cortez to grow into his secondary leadership role
<InvictusZero> the chapter's ending was disappointing in that regard, that's true
<Vryheid> time for echo team to finally have that teamwork and comrodarie
<Vryheid> nope
<Vryheid> gotta fuck it all up
<Vryheid> but it was a punch in the gut of an ending you gotta admit
<Vryheid> I think it did a good job showing why the guy is so angry
<Vryheid> I can empathize with his attitude more
<InvictusZero> it did turn the protagonist into more than just a monster in human skin, but it really didn't need to ruin the potential it implied with the other characters, especially after all that setup
<InvictusZero> like
<Vryheid> what honestly is kind of telling about how I've been trained towards certain biases is that despite everything I've read, I have some vague hope that these trainers can keep the peace just by being nice with their pokemon
<Vryheid> like I have some inner thought like "well maybe, maybe if all the humans just tried to live peacefully and stopped murdering all the wild pokemon, maybe they wouldn't kill each other"
<Vryheid> that's how it usually works in fanfiction
<Vryheid> but I'm getting the impression slanders is really going all the way in trying to make trainers look like a bunch of delusional hippies
<InvictusZero> Amber was supposedly a total bitch and everyone hated her; the only reason she wasn't fired was because the rangers have serious personnel problems, but how and why did she stay for 16 years despite being attacked and without changing her attitudes in any way? I thought there'd be some insight and development, but NOPE
<InvictusZero> vryheid if that story ends in some hippie bullshit way I'll have to invent a way to keelhaul the author over the internet
<InvictusZero> that has zero basis for the world he has set up
<Vryheid> well what I mean is
<InvictusZero> worse than what I originally had
<Vryheid> what if his premise is that training is by definition futile
<Vryheid> that the rangers really are right
<InvictusZero> it better be that
<Vryheid> and that people should all give up with "friendship" and treat their pokemon like shit
<Vryheid> and become a bunch of bitter pokemon abusing psychopaths holed up in military bunkers
<InvictusZero> unless the history part is completely made up, I don't see a canon-like attitude towards pokémon working at all
<Vryheid> you know when I first saw amber and how much zane complained about her I thought it was just him being an unreliable narrator
<Vryheid> like, maybe this guy is just so biased that he's making up details about her or exaggerating it
<InvictusZero> all I could think of was "author, get off your soapbox"
<Vryheid> honestly I think that would have been more effective because it would allow me to more easily distinguish between what the author is saying and what zane is saying
<Vryheid> but I mean, amber apparently was as much of a bitch as zane said she was which I think is kind of problematic
<Vryheid> she's treated like crap the entire chapter and there's no real sympathetic moment for her at all
<InvictusZero> so far, the narrative has always agreed with the protag and that's not exactly a good thing; someone like him should not be a reliable narrator even if the world is a post-postapocalyptic hellhole
<InvictusZero> >but I mean, amber apparently was as much of a bitch as zane said she was which I think is kind of problematic    that's why the author inserted the liberal opinion part
<Vryheid> the whole point of us as readers being willing to accept such an unpleasant narrator is the ability to be put in the perspective of an unpleasant protagonist
<Vryheid> but it seems like the protagonist is right about everything all the time
<Vryheid> which means it kind of feels like the author is endorsing this
<Nandosagi> which story is this again
<Vryheid> https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11463818/1/The-Saga-of-Kings-Book-I-Hero violence the fanfic
* Nandosagi is now known as Nandosagi|writing
<Nandosagi|writing> >open page
<Nandosagi|writing> >roll mouse wheel one revolution
<Nandosagi|writing> .yt Dr. Weird Snake
<Internets> :: YouTube Dr. Weird's Snake :: URL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6B_g6bZKP8 (00:12) :: Views 110,790 :: Rating [+] 419 likes [-] 8 dislikes ::
<Nandosagi|writing> Steve is mfw
<InvictusZero> it would be hilariously subversive if the protagonist ended up learning that history has been thoroughly rewritten to justify human mistakes and pokémon being so brutal was adaption to humanity's first encounter response, but given that the protag is talking about his past, that can't happen
<Vryheid> we know that pokemon freak out due to gunfire
<Vryheid> another element borrowed directly from game of champions
<Vryheid> maybe if, you know, they didn't shoot the pokemon the pokemon wouldn't get so hostile
<Vryheid> just a thought
<InvictusZero> according to history, pokémon just started rampaging when they first appeared
<InvictusZero> game of champions did that too? I remembered it as the justification for medieval weaponry in Sun Soul
<Nandosagi|writing> I don't even remember why I actually liked Sun Soul
<Nandosagi|writing> when I read it like two years ago
<InvictusZero> since the protag has been right about everything so far, history is probably accurate
<InvictusZero> Sun Soul had a few interesting ideas but never followed through with them; I kinda liked the world and would've wanted to see more of its inner workings, but that wasn't on the author's agenda; instead, generic war plot and deus ex machina artifact
<Nandosagi|writing> https://vine.co/v/eTu9JOJ1AM0
<Nandosagi|writing> I don't know the one thing I remember is that it at least seemed like it held on to itself
<Nandosagi|writing> but who knows
<Vryheid> invictus in one of the footnotes in game of champions it goes on about how pokemon go in a blood frenzy at the sound of gunfire and how they need to use gas powered crossbows
<Vryheid> it's exactly the same concept
<Nandosagi|writing> >gas powered crossbows
<Nandosagi|writing> this just makes me think of SnK
<Vryheid> this story expands it entirely to explosions of any kind
<Vryheid> I like zane as a character though, like, he feels a lot more human than these goofy trainer stereotypes
<Vryheid> he actually has to think on his feet to solve problems
<Unown> >Pokemon freak out at gunfire
<Vryheid> the power of friendship does not see him through
<Unown> But how does that work when there's *literally* explosions everywhere in most incarnations of the canon?
<InvictusZero> thinking about it, I remember snorlax being some sort of terror beast in Sun Soul too; which came first, Game of Champions of Sun Soul?
<Nandosagi|writing> isn't Sun Soul from like 2001
<Unown> If they freak out over a boolet getting shot, why not freak out over every missed Hyper Beam ever?
<InvictusZero> Unown: gotta fabricate excuses for the lack of guns in canon and crank up the "humanity is fucked" angle
<Unown> And wouldn't "freaking out over bullets" just motivate the development of silencers earlier on in history?
<Nandosagi|writing> just develop laser guns
<Nandosagi|writing> :P
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<Unown> Invictus: Simple. They're largely redundant and inherently "anti-personnel weapons". Meaning they'd be more prone to be looked down upon and "muh chillens"'d
<InvictusZero> vryheid: yeah, overall the protagonist is still an interesting character
<InvictusZero> Unown: but if pokémon are stronger than guns, how has humanity survived?
<Unown> Invictus: Depends on how idealistic your setting is.
<Vryheid> lots and lots of guns