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- <shnatsel> now, which "unofficial" apps did we have?
- <shnatsel> Eidete - one...
- <shnatsel> Strip - two...
- <shnatsel> Calculator, lol...
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: well strip is currently a two sided blade, as they have kindof joined the team xD
- * hcabaguio (~hcabaguio@S0106002127da7c9b.wp.shawcable.net) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
- * RabbitBot дал голос hcabaguio
- * hcabaguio ушел (Changing host)
- * hcabaguio (~hcabaguio@unaffiliated/hcabaguio) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
- * adams.freenode.net дал голос hcabaguio
- * RabbitBot дал голос hcabaguio
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: we need a second project group
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: yeah, I've been through this already
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: good idea
- <agent00tai> I'll do that right now
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: thanks!
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: elementary-unofficial ?
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: staging
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: call it staging
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: because many apps are actually quite official
- <agent00tai> staging is the wrong name imho
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: well, like Strip - they're not third-party
- <TheLolrus> scratch HAS to be official
- <TheLolrus> or I hope
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: Linux kernel has it like that
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: I'm not a native English speaker, so...
- <agent00tai> staging gives the impression of saying: this has to evolve to be included
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: yes, it exactly is
- <shnatsel> TheLolrus: it kinda is but kinda is not
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: where this is not the case for every app, we just can't include everything under our umbrella
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: why? we'll have to oversee design of every single app anyway
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: so you can either have an official app, or a not offical app, there should be no in the middle, because it confuses us and the users as well
- <hcabaguio> ++
- <tom95> shnatsel: I should start implementing your mockup now?
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: wait... I get your point
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: any ideas about improving http://imagebin.org/191433 ?
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: it will have a little round about icon on the left too
- <hcabaguio> make it more like the way Dan did it
- <hcabaguio> :P
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: so if we decide that an app is worth of us making it official and the developers feel the same way, it will get official, if not, then it's not
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: with preferences? I feel like it's a different thing, but it might be a good idea to try...
- <tom95> agent00tai: so even eidete could become official?
- <shnatsel> tom95: sure
- <tom95> oh, nice :)
- <agent00tai> tom95: yes I totally can see it beeing offical, maybe not included in the default install, but one doesn't cross out the other
- * grenadejumper ушел (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
- <tom95> shnatsel: I can expect a mockup revision 3 soon? :P
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: it would be useful in default install
- <shnatsel> tom95: maybe tomorrow
- <tom95> agent00tai: like in gnome-shell now
- <tom95> shnatsel: ok :(
- <shnatsel> tom95: or today in several hours
- <tom95> shnatsel: ok :)
- <tom95> shnatsel: your today or my today?
- <shnatsel> tom95: oh shi...
- <shnatsel> tom95: in several hours
- <shnatsel> omg it's 1 am
- <tom95> shnatsel: ok :D
- <tom95> 22 pm for me :P
- <shnatsel> where did all my time go?!
- * mefrio (~mefrio@net-93-149-42-238.cust.dsl.teletu.it) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
- * RabbitBot дал голос mefrio
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: I feel like "unofficial" is not the right word either... Strip is not the focus in any way but its dev is on the team and works on other stuff too, and Scratch is a weird one because it's developed by xapantu for euclide too and we want it for sure but it doesn't meet the quality standards yet
- <TheLolrus> shnatsel, scratch will be official most likely
- <TheLolrus> dan even said
- <shnatsel> TheLolrus: WILLL
- <TheLolrus> lol
- <shnatsel> TheLolrus: but not IS
- <hcabaguio> scratch should totally be a part of devkit
- <TheLolrus> no.
- <shnatsel> that's the problem...
- <hcabaguio> but not a part of default install
- <TheLolrus> it's a text editor
- <hcabaguio> you don't meed a text editor
- <shnatsel> TheLolrus: admit it, it's a CODE editor, not TEXT
- <hcabaguio> shnatsel: +
- <TheLolrus> not really
- <hcabaguio> it should be
- <shnatsel> TheLolrus: for everything else you have rich text editor
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: then make it offical and mark it as in development or something for christs sake
- <hcabaguio> mefrio: scratch is a code editor
- <TheLolrus> do we have a rich text editor?
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: yep. Staging.
- <shnatsel> TheLolrus: not yet
- <TheLolrus> lol
- <mefrio> hcabaguio: yep
- <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: see?
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: I'm no way splitting stuff in three project groups, that's just ridiculous
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: exactly
- <tom95> shnatsel: how to do quicklists? :S
- <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: I told you soz
- <TheLolrus> lame
- <shnatsel> tom95: ask MBarvian
- <TheLolrus> unix philosophy bros!
- <agent00tai> and staging is not the right thing imho
- <tom95> MBarvian: how to do quicklists?
- <TheLolrus> I use vim anyway
- <shnatsel> tom95: unix philosophy says that concision and modularity is the key
- <shnatsel> TheLolrus: ^
- <TheLolrus> but when scratch gets a vim plugin I'll use it
- <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: so your opinion is invalid
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: let's see what we need to express again
- <TheLolrus> hcabaguio, not necessarily
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: category 1: this is a good project we like and oversee
- <mefrio> TheLolrus: you don't like scratch because it has not vim emulation?
- <TheLolrus> you don't even edit code
- <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: your opinion is invalid
- <TheLolrus> mefrio, well I like scratch but I don't use it
- <mefrio> if I use geany it is because I want to use geany
- <mefrio> if I use scratch it is because I want to use scratch
- <TheLolrus> hcabaguio, you don't edit code, so you'rs is invalid
- <mefrio> if I use gedit it is because I want to use gedit
- <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: your opinion is still invalid
- <TheLolrus> so what
- <mefrio> not because I want to use vim -.-
- <TheLolrus> vim is awesome
- <mefrio> scratch != vim
- <hcabaguio> vim users don't get an opinion
- <TheLolrus> hcabaguio, not really I've used scratch before
- <hcabaguio> end of story
- <TheLolrus> mefrio, well it'd be cool to use vim inside of scratch
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: category 2: it's a project [possibly third-party] that doesn't meet UX, speed or other quality standards
- <TheLolrus> that'd be epic
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: what else?
- <mefrio> ah and according to Dan, in Luna will probably be scratch because he wants to replace gedit
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: what shouldn't we take under our umbrella?
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: everything that we can't handle
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: examples?
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: if elementary really grows and gets more apps there's no way all of them are going to be official
- <TheLolrus> dude the name of the rich text editor should be Calligraphy
- <TheLolrus> though that could be misleading
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: why not? We develop very quickly and we'll have to stimulate app developers to keep up.
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: so for example a app catering one specific use case
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: doesn't meet UX standards
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: huge projects are a huge mess
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: too bloated: doesn't meet UX standards
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: or philosophy
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: or whatever
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: if that app has one use canse it can still follow the HIG
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: doesn't meet them, but nobody said it will never meet them in the future
- <TheLolrus> some projects need that bloat/specific use case
- <hcabaguio> only support what's going to be in elementary OS
- * datagutt ушел (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
- <hcabaguio> problem solved
- <TheLolrus> hcabaguio, +1
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: -1
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: devkit?
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: UI is not everything, there's UX also
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: hig is not everything
- <agent00tai> hcabaguio: yeah we though of that a while ago as well
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: exactly, so where do you draw the line
- * toptive (~toptive@f053077227.adsl.alicedsl.de) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: where designers deem :P
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: I could code you an awesome bot for use in a irc chat, that has an awesome UX, now what?
- <hcabaguio> let's have a dev meeting
- <hcabaguio> right now
- <agent00tai> or even a different panel than wingpanel, now what?
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: it just doesn't make sense to have everything under our umbrella
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: deduplicate projects and choose one
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: so where does the other end up? in staging?
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: in staging if they want it
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: elsewhere if they don't
- <agent00tai> because that would indicate, by my understanding, in development by elementary to be used in future elementary os
- <hcabaguio> hey guys
- <hcabaguio> just let dan decide what he wants to support
- <hcabaguio> :P
- <agent00tai> because that is what staging means
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: IRC bot is probably command-line and we mess only with GUIs
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: staging means "doesn't meet our standards or philosophy, yet"
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: see, the blueprint was not bitesize
- <elementary-site3> Might I propose: official and universe naming is consistent with ubuntu et. al
- <shnatsel> hmm, sounds like a good idea
- <shnatsel> or maybe not
- <agent00tai> so from a user standpoint, what does universe stand for, it just doesn't say anything at all
- * TheLolrus ушел (Remote host closed the connection)
- <shnatsel> I still support "staging"
- <elementary-site3> well it says its of the same style to me
- <agent00tai> sure it's consistent with ubuntu and all, but offical and unofficial is just munch clearer
- <elementary-site3> but not close, as in official
- <elementary-site3> explicit is good
- <hcabaguio> unofficial doesn't sound good
- <elementary-site3> just look at the internet...
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: official/unofficial is a bit too harsh and not quite explanatory either; it was not obvious for tom95 that an unofficial project can become official
- <hcabaguio> apple doesn't call third-party apps unofficial
- <shnatsel> yeah, we're discouraging devs with "unofficial"
- <elementary-site3> third-party +1
- <agent00tai> I can live with third-party
- <shnatsel> and "staging" stimulates to improve your app
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: that's not true either... we've been trough this already
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: Strip is a third-party app from a non-third-party developer
- <tom95> I think we need something funny, like gstreamer's good, bad, ugly system :P
- <shnatsel> tom95: we won't have ugly I hope
- <hcabaguio> shnatsel: being made by a non-third-party dev doesn't stop it from being a third-party app
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: third-party app? ridiculous
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: the party is us but we make a third-party app
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: but I think you still haven't got my point on how to split this, imo apps that are planned to be used by us, even if they are not perfect should be official ones, like scratch is listed now, we want to use it, we develop it => official
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: lolwut?
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: ok, what about Strip?
- <hcabaguio> the definition of a third party app is an app that isn't in elementary OS
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: let's say it's finished and polished and shines. Where shall we put it?
- <hcabaguio> or used by elementary
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: strip is not developed by us last time I checked, we also don't want to ship it, but it follows the HIG and is a nice app -> third-party
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: its dev was on the team and helped with other projects too last time I checked
- <tom95> or: elementary app, elementary based app
- <agent00tai> hcabaguio: yeah that's my opinion exactly
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: so made by us
- <hcabaguio> the definition of a third party app is an app that isn't in elementary OS
- <shnatsel> tom95: elementary-based is broad term and may or may not mean a good thing
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: really? do we need to start at the beginning again now?
- <shnatsel> tom95: and doesn't even indicate the level of integration
- * jalcine (~desktop@sii/jackyalcine) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: I can't see any harm from e.g. Strip [finished] being in elementary main or whatever
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: but it doesn't belong there AT ALL
- <tom95> shnatsel: btw, did you see, kazam is gstreamer based now too...
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: I think it's good to have yet-another-great-app and associate it with us because it uses our tech, follows our hig and philosophy, and otherwise is good for us
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: "doesn't belong there AT ALL" is a subjective thing
- <shnatsel> tom95: yes, I did
- <hcabaguio> it doesn't belong because its not in elementary OS
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: devkit is not installed by default either.
- <tom95> shnatsel: they copied the settings from gnome-shell screencaster too :P
- <hcabaguio> devkit doesn't even exist
- <shnatsel> tom95: good thing to do XD
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: well then you need to let every app in that follows the HIG & has good UX, if apple did that, they now had millions of applications
- <shnatsel> hcabaguio: scratch, euclide
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: apple is different
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: or even google with their android market
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: how? what makes it so different?
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: apple is a commercial company with strict boundaries and list of apps for which they pay
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: because it makes money? because it's bigger?
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: they pay a strict list of people to make a strict list of apps
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: and we're bazaar
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: people come and go, and so do apps
- <agent00tai> so? that doesn't make any difference there
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: we're open
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: we're a community
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: we surely are open, but we're not open ended
- <hcabaguio> apple is also a community
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: we have a brand and standards of quality, that's all
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: oh, and a council
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: you can't just say that everything that is going to be made in "elementary style" is something we want to maintain and have on our list, because this is going to be a fucking huge task someday
- <tom95> (hopefully)
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: if some guy comes and makes a good app that integrates with our desktop and has good UX, there's no reason to not label it elementary. We'll both benefit from doing so.
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: I'm fine with creating a community around the core, but the core is the core and the community does what it does best, organize itself
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: if it gets abandoned, or stops meeting quality standards, it will be sent back to staging
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: no it won't, that's the problem, once we go and say it's an official thing it IS official and maintained by us
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: so we should and have to really draw a border there
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: calling something elementary doesn't obligate you to maintain it. In fact, I think you never touched a line of code in BeatBox or Scratch.
- <agent00tai> you can't say "yay we have this awesome new app in our project" and go two months later "oh there is no activity in this project anymore we're dropping it"
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: nautilus-elementary, rhythm-e, what else was there?
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: no, because their code works and is alive, also I don't have time to work on any more stuff
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: well rythm-e was never released or anything, and nautilus-elementary has a replacement in form of marlin
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: also it was a huge fight to keep it alive at all
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: if something stops meeting our quality standards, it's set back to staging. We don't drop it or anything and it's still installable from the OS.
- <hcabaguio> sounds irresponsible
- <shnatsel> that division will happen only at major releases anyway
- <shnatsel> hmm, wait...
- <hcabaguio> by labeling something as official, its kinda your responsibility
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: ok, I'm not going to submit anything to lp about a new group now, thankfully I didn't yet
- <shnatsel> if something doesn't meet our standards, do we want it to be installable from the OS?
- <agent00tai> hcabaguio: ++++++++
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: not from our ppas at least, yes
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: well... some other ppa, but it's installable in elementary os and not in other OSs
- <shnatsel> do we want it to be installable or not?
- <hcabaguio> what
- <shnatsel> ootb I mean
- <hcabaguio> then no
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: ^
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: users are free, they can install it, but not from OUR ppas, third-party or official doesn't matter there
- * juliomino (~juliomino@rob76-8-78-235-17-111.fbx.proxad.net) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: that's only my opinion though
- * juliomino ушел (Quit: Leaving.)
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: so, as far as I understand, you want to separate projects that we're not going to maintain from "our" core projects?
- * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
- <hcabaguio> yes
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: exactly, our core stuff is certainly going to be all of our apps in the os and the development tools, everything else will be third party in my opinion
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: hmm... that's not exactly how I saw it, but makes sense
- <shnatsel> agent00tai: ok, yeah, I agree
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: can we settle on elementary-community-apps ?
- <shnatsel> third-party is probably better... we ARE community.
- <agent00tai> shnatsel: ok file a blueprint on it, add the irc log and request feedback from all council members please
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