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  1. <shnatsel> now, which "unofficial" apps did we have?
  2. <shnatsel> Eidete - one...
  3. <shnatsel> Strip - two...
  4. <shnatsel> Calculator, lol...
  5. <agent00tai> shnatsel: well strip is currently a two sided blade, as they have kindof joined the team xD
  6. * hcabaguio (~hcabaguio@S0106002127da7c9b.wp.shawcable.net) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
  7. * RabbitBot дал голос hcabaguio
  8. * hcabaguio ушел (Changing host)
  9. * hcabaguio (~hcabaguio@unaffiliated/hcabaguio) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
  10. * adams.freenode.net дал голос hcabaguio
  11. * RabbitBot дал голос hcabaguio
  12. <agent00tai> shnatsel: we need a second project group
  13. <shnatsel> agent00tai: yeah, I've been through this already
  14. <shnatsel> agent00tai: good idea
  15. <agent00tai> I'll do that right now
  16. <shnatsel> agent00tai: thanks!
  17. <agent00tai> shnatsel: elementary-unofficial ?
  18. <shnatsel> agent00tai: staging
  19. <shnatsel> agent00tai: call it staging
  20. <shnatsel> agent00tai: because many apps are actually quite official
  21. <agent00tai> staging is the wrong name imho
  22. <shnatsel> agent00tai: well, like Strip - they're not third-party
  23. <TheLolrus> scratch HAS to be official
  24. <TheLolrus> or I hope
  25. <shnatsel> agent00tai: Linux kernel has it like that
  26. <shnatsel> agent00tai: I'm not a native English speaker, so...
  27. <agent00tai> staging gives the impression of saying: this has to evolve to be included
  28. <shnatsel> agent00tai: yes, it exactly is
  29. <shnatsel> TheLolrus: it kinda is but kinda is not
  30. <agent00tai> shnatsel: where this is not the case for every app, we just can't include everything under our umbrella
  31. <shnatsel> agent00tai: why? we'll have to oversee design of every single app anyway
  32. <agent00tai> shnatsel: so you can either have an official app, or a not offical app, there should be no in the middle, because it confuses us and the users as well
  33. <hcabaguio> ++
  34. <tom95> shnatsel: I should start implementing your mockup now?
  35. <shnatsel> agent00tai: wait... I get your point
  36. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: any ideas about improving http://imagebin.org/191433 ?
  37. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: it will have a little round about icon on the left too
  38. <hcabaguio> make it more like the way Dan did it
  39. <hcabaguio> :P
  40. <agent00tai> shnatsel: so if we decide that an app is worth of us making it official and the developers feel the same way, it will get official, if not, then it's not
  41. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: with preferences? I feel like it's a different thing, but it might be a good idea to try...
  42. <tom95> agent00tai: so even eidete could become official?
  43. <shnatsel> tom95: sure
  44. <tom95> oh, nice :)
  45. <agent00tai> tom95: yes I totally can see it beeing offical, maybe not included in the default install, but one doesn't cross out the other
  46. * grenadejumper ушел (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  47. <tom95> shnatsel: I can expect a mockup revision 3 soon? :P
  48. <shnatsel> agent00tai: it would be useful in default install
  49. <shnatsel> tom95: maybe tomorrow
  50. <tom95> agent00tai: like in gnome-shell now
  51. <tom95> shnatsel: ok :(
  52. <shnatsel> tom95: or today in several hours
  53. <tom95> shnatsel: ok :)
  54. <tom95> shnatsel: your today or my today?
  55. <shnatsel> tom95: oh shi...
  56. <shnatsel> tom95: in several hours
  57. <shnatsel> omg it's 1 am
  58. <tom95> shnatsel: ok :D
  59. <tom95> 22 pm for me :P
  60. <shnatsel> where did all my time go?!
  61. * mefrio (~mefrio@net-93-149-42-238.cust.dsl.teletu.it) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
  62. * RabbitBot дал голос mefrio
  63. <shnatsel> agent00tai: I feel like "unofficial" is not the right word either... Strip is not the focus in any way but its dev is on the team and works on other stuff too, and Scratch is a weird one because it's developed by xapantu for euclide too and we want it for sure but it doesn't meet the quality standards yet
  64. <TheLolrus> shnatsel, scratch will be official most likely
  65. <TheLolrus> dan even said
  66. <shnatsel> TheLolrus: WILLL
  67. <TheLolrus> lol
  68. <shnatsel> TheLolrus: but not IS
  69. <hcabaguio> scratch should totally be a part of devkit
  70. <TheLolrus> no.
  71. <shnatsel> that's the problem...
  72. <hcabaguio> but not a part of default install
  73. <TheLolrus> it's a text editor
  74. <hcabaguio> you don't meed a text editor
  75. <shnatsel> TheLolrus: admit it, it's a CODE editor, not TEXT
  76. <hcabaguio> shnatsel: +
  77. <TheLolrus> not really
  78. <hcabaguio> it should be
  79. <shnatsel> TheLolrus: for everything else you have rich text editor
  80. <agent00tai> shnatsel: then make it offical and mark it as in development or something for christs sake
  81. <hcabaguio> mefrio: scratch is a code editor
  82. <TheLolrus> do we have a rich text editor?
  83. <shnatsel> agent00tai: yep. Staging.
  84. <shnatsel> TheLolrus: not yet
  85. <TheLolrus> lol
  86. <mefrio> hcabaguio: yep
  87. <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: see?
  88. <agent00tai> shnatsel: I'm no way splitting stuff in three project groups, that's just ridiculous
  89. <shnatsel> agent00tai: exactly
  90. <tom95> shnatsel: how to do quicklists? :S
  91. <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: I told you soz
  92. <TheLolrus> lame
  93. <shnatsel> tom95: ask MBarvian
  94. <TheLolrus> unix philosophy bros!
  95. <agent00tai> and staging is not the right thing imho
  96. <tom95> MBarvian: how to do quicklists?
  97. <TheLolrus> I use vim anyway
  98. <shnatsel> tom95: unix philosophy says that concision and modularity is the key
  99. <shnatsel> TheLolrus: ^
  100. <TheLolrus> but when scratch gets a vim plugin I'll use it
  101. <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: so your opinion is invalid
  102. <shnatsel> agent00tai: let's see what we need to express again
  103. <TheLolrus> hcabaguio, not necessarily
  104. <shnatsel> agent00tai: category 1: this is a good project we like and oversee
  105. <mefrio> TheLolrus: you don't like scratch because it has not vim emulation?
  106. <TheLolrus> you don't even edit code
  107. <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: your opinion is invalid
  108. <TheLolrus> mefrio, well I like scratch but I don't use it
  109. <mefrio> if I use geany it is because I want to use geany
  110. <mefrio> if I use scratch it is because I want to use scratch
  111. <TheLolrus> hcabaguio, you don't edit code, so you'rs is invalid
  112. <mefrio> if I use gedit it is because I want to use gedit
  113. <hcabaguio> TheLolrus: your opinion is still invalid
  114. <TheLolrus> so what
  115. <mefrio> not because I want to use vim -.-
  116. <TheLolrus> vim is awesome
  117. <mefrio> scratch != vim
  118. <hcabaguio> vim users don't get an opinion
  119. <TheLolrus> hcabaguio, not really I've used scratch before
  120. <hcabaguio> end of story
  121. <TheLolrus> mefrio, well it'd be cool to use vim inside of scratch
  122. <shnatsel> agent00tai: category 2: it's a project [possibly third-party] that doesn't meet UX, speed or other quality standards
  123. <TheLolrus> that'd be epic
  124. <shnatsel> agent00tai: what else?
  125. <mefrio> ah and according to Dan, in Luna will probably be scratch because he wants to replace gedit
  126. <shnatsel> agent00tai: what shouldn't we take under our umbrella?
  127. <agent00tai> shnatsel: everything that we can't handle
  128. <shnatsel> agent00tai: examples?
  129. <agent00tai> shnatsel: if elementary really grows and gets more apps there's no way all of them are going to be official
  130. <TheLolrus> dude the name of the rich text editor should be Calligraphy
  131. <TheLolrus> though that could be misleading
  132. <shnatsel> agent00tai: why not? We develop very quickly and we'll have to stimulate app developers to keep up.
  133. <agent00tai> shnatsel: so for example a app catering one specific use case
  134. <shnatsel> agent00tai: doesn't meet UX standards
  135. <agent00tai> shnatsel: huge projects are a huge mess
  136. <shnatsel> agent00tai: too bloated: doesn't meet UX standards
  137. <shnatsel> agent00tai: or philosophy
  138. <shnatsel> agent00tai: or whatever
  139. <agent00tai> shnatsel: if that app has one use canse it can still follow the HIG
  140. <shnatsel> agent00tai: doesn't meet them, but nobody said it will never meet them in the future
  141. <TheLolrus> some projects need that bloat/specific use case
  142. <hcabaguio> only support what's going to be in elementary OS
  143. * datagutt ушел (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  144. <hcabaguio> problem solved
  145. <TheLolrus> hcabaguio, +1
  146. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: -1
  147. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: devkit?
  148. <shnatsel> agent00tai: UI is not everything, there's UX also
  149. <shnatsel> agent00tai: hig is not everything
  150. <agent00tai> hcabaguio: yeah we though of that a while ago as well
  151. <agent00tai> shnatsel: exactly, so where do you draw the line
  152. * toptive (~toptive@f053077227.adsl.alicedsl.de) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
  153. <shnatsel> agent00tai: where designers deem :P
  154. <agent00tai> shnatsel: I could code you an awesome bot for use in a irc chat, that has an awesome UX, now what?
  155. <hcabaguio> let's have a dev meeting
  156. <hcabaguio> right now
  157. <agent00tai> or even a different panel than wingpanel, now what?
  158. <agent00tai> shnatsel: it just doesn't make sense to have everything under our umbrella
  159. <shnatsel> agent00tai: deduplicate projects and choose one
  160. <agent00tai> shnatsel: so where does the other end up? in staging?
  161. <shnatsel> agent00tai: in staging if they want it
  162. <shnatsel> agent00tai: elsewhere if they don't
  163. <agent00tai> because that would indicate, by my understanding, in development by elementary to be used in future elementary os
  164. <hcabaguio> hey guys
  165. <hcabaguio> just let dan decide what he wants to support
  166. <hcabaguio> :P
  167. <agent00tai> because that is what staging means
  168. <shnatsel> agent00tai: IRC bot is probably command-line and we mess only with GUIs
  169. <shnatsel> agent00tai: staging means "doesn't meet our standards or philosophy, yet"
  170. <shnatsel> agent00tai: see, the blueprint was not bitesize
  171. <elementary-site3> Might I propose: official and universe naming is consistent with ubuntu et. al
  172. <shnatsel> hmm, sounds like a good idea
  173. <shnatsel> or maybe not
  174. <agent00tai> so from a user standpoint, what does universe stand for, it just doesn't say anything at all
  175. * TheLolrus ушел (Remote host closed the connection)
  176. <shnatsel> I still support "staging"
  177. <elementary-site3> well it says its of the same style to me
  178. <agent00tai> sure it's consistent with ubuntu and all, but offical and unofficial is just munch clearer
  179. <elementary-site3> but not close, as in official
  180. <elementary-site3> explicit is good
  181. <hcabaguio> unofficial doesn't sound good
  182. <elementary-site3> just look at the internet...
  183. <shnatsel> agent00tai: official/unofficial is a bit too harsh and not quite explanatory either; it was not obvious for tom95 that an unofficial project can become official
  184. <hcabaguio> apple doesn't call third-party apps unofficial
  185. <shnatsel> yeah, we're discouraging devs with "unofficial"
  186. <elementary-site3> third-party +1
  187. <agent00tai> I can live with third-party
  188. <shnatsel> and "staging" stimulates to improve your app
  189. <shnatsel> agent00tai: that's not true either... we've been trough this already
  190. <shnatsel> agent00tai: Strip is a third-party app from a non-third-party developer
  191. <tom95> I think we need something funny, like gstreamer's good, bad, ugly system :P
  192. <shnatsel> tom95: we won't have ugly I hope
  193. <hcabaguio> shnatsel: being made by a non-third-party dev doesn't stop it from being a third-party app
  194. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: third-party app? ridiculous
  195. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: the party is us but we make a third-party app
  196. <agent00tai> shnatsel: but I think you still haven't got my point on how to split this, imo apps that are planned to be used by us, even if they are not perfect should be official ones, like scratch is listed now, we want to use it, we develop it => official
  197. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: lolwut?
  198. <shnatsel> agent00tai: ok, what about Strip?
  199. <hcabaguio> the definition of a third party app is an app that isn't in elementary OS
  200. <shnatsel> agent00tai: let's say it's finished and polished and shines. Where shall we put it?
  201. <hcabaguio> or used by elementary
  202. <agent00tai> shnatsel: strip is not developed by us last time I checked, we also don't want to ship it, but it follows the HIG and is a nice app -> third-party
  203. <shnatsel> agent00tai: its dev was on the team and helped with other projects too last time I checked
  204. <tom95> or: elementary app, elementary based app
  205. <agent00tai> hcabaguio: yeah that's my opinion exactly
  206. <shnatsel> agent00tai: so made by us
  207. <hcabaguio> the definition of a third party app is an app that isn't in elementary OS
  208. <shnatsel> tom95: elementary-based is broad term and may or may not mean a good thing
  209. <agent00tai> shnatsel: really? do we need to start at the beginning again now?
  210. <shnatsel> tom95: and doesn't even indicate the level of integration
  211. * jalcine (~desktop@sii/jackyalcine) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
  212. <shnatsel> agent00tai: I can't see any harm from e.g. Strip [finished] being in elementary main or whatever
  213. <agent00tai> shnatsel: but it doesn't belong there AT ALL
  214. <tom95> shnatsel: btw, did you see, kazam is gstreamer based now too...
  215. <shnatsel> agent00tai: I think it's good to have yet-another-great-app and associate it with us because it uses our tech, follows our hig and philosophy, and otherwise is good for us
  216. <shnatsel> agent00tai: "doesn't belong there AT ALL" is a subjective thing
  217. <shnatsel> tom95: yes, I did
  218. <hcabaguio> it doesn't belong because its not in elementary OS
  219. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: devkit is not installed by default either.
  220. <tom95> shnatsel: they copied the settings from gnome-shell screencaster too :P
  221. <hcabaguio> devkit doesn't even exist
  222. <shnatsel> tom95: good thing to do XD
  223. <agent00tai> shnatsel: well then you need to let every app in that follows the HIG & has good UX, if apple did that, they now had millions of applications
  224. <shnatsel> hcabaguio: scratch, euclide
  225. <shnatsel> agent00tai: apple is different
  226. <agent00tai> shnatsel: or even google with their android market
  227. <agent00tai> shnatsel: how? what makes it so different?
  228. <shnatsel> agent00tai: apple is a commercial company with strict boundaries and list of apps for which they pay
  229. <agent00tai> shnatsel: because it makes money? because it's bigger?
  230. <shnatsel> agent00tai: they pay a strict list of people to make a strict list of apps
  231. <shnatsel> agent00tai: and we're bazaar
  232. <shnatsel> agent00tai: people come and go, and so do apps
  233. <agent00tai> so? that doesn't make any difference there
  234. <shnatsel> agent00tai: we're open
  235. <shnatsel> agent00tai: we're a community
  236. <agent00tai> shnatsel: we surely are open, but we're not open ended
  237. <hcabaguio> apple is also a community
  238. <shnatsel> agent00tai: we have a brand and standards of quality, that's all
  239. <shnatsel> agent00tai: oh, and a council
  240. <agent00tai> shnatsel: you can't just say that everything that is going to be made in "elementary style" is something we want to maintain and have on our list, because this is going to be a fucking huge task someday
  241. <tom95> (hopefully)
  242. <shnatsel> agent00tai: if some guy comes and makes a good app that integrates with our desktop and has good UX, there's no reason to not label it elementary. We'll both benefit from doing so.
  243. <agent00tai> shnatsel: I'm fine with creating a community around the core, but the core is the core and the community does what it does best, organize itself
  244. <shnatsel> agent00tai: if it gets abandoned, or stops meeting quality standards, it will be sent back to staging
  245. <agent00tai> shnatsel: no it won't, that's the problem, once we go and say it's an official thing it IS official and maintained by us
  246. <agent00tai> shnatsel: so we should and have to really draw a border there
  247. <shnatsel> agent00tai: calling something elementary doesn't obligate you to maintain it. In fact, I think you never touched a line of code in BeatBox or Scratch.
  248. <agent00tai> you can't say "yay we have this awesome new app in our project" and go two months later "oh there is no activity in this project anymore we're dropping it"
  249. <shnatsel> agent00tai: nautilus-elementary, rhythm-e, what else was there?
  250. <agent00tai> shnatsel: no, because their code works and is alive, also I don't have time to work on any more stuff
  251. <agent00tai> shnatsel: well rythm-e was never released or anything, and nautilus-elementary has a replacement in form of marlin
  252. <agent00tai> shnatsel: also it was a huge fight to keep it alive at all
  253. <shnatsel> agent00tai: if something stops meeting our quality standards, it's set back to staging. We don't drop it or anything and it's still installable from the OS.
  254. <hcabaguio> sounds irresponsible
  255. <shnatsel> that division will happen only at major releases anyway
  256. <shnatsel> hmm, wait...
  257. <hcabaguio> by labeling something as official, its kinda your responsibility
  258. <agent00tai> shnatsel: ok, I'm not going to submit anything to lp about a new group now, thankfully I didn't yet
  259. <shnatsel> if something doesn't meet our standards, do we want it to be installable from the OS?
  260. <agent00tai> hcabaguio: ++++++++
  261. <agent00tai> shnatsel: not from our ppas at least, yes
  262. <shnatsel> agent00tai: well... some other ppa, but it's installable in elementary os and not in other OSs
  263. <shnatsel> do we want it to be installable or not?
  264. <hcabaguio> what
  265. <shnatsel> ootb I mean
  266. <hcabaguio> then no
  267. <shnatsel> agent00tai: ^
  268. <agent00tai> shnatsel: users are free, they can install it, but not from OUR ppas, third-party or official doesn't matter there
  269. * juliomino (~juliomino@rob76-8-78-235-17-111.fbx.proxad.net) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
  270. <agent00tai> shnatsel: that's only my opinion though
  271. * juliomino ушел (Quit: Leaving.)
  272. <shnatsel> agent00tai: so, as far as I understand, you want to separate projects that we're not going to maintain from "our" core projects?
  273. * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) зашел на канал #elementary-dev
  274. <hcabaguio> yes
  275. <agent00tai> shnatsel: exactly, our core stuff is certainly going to be all of our apps in the os and the development tools, everything else will be third party in my opinion
  276. <shnatsel> agent00tai: hmm... that's not exactly how I saw it, but makes sense
  277. <shnatsel> agent00tai: ok, yeah, I agree
  278. <agent00tai> shnatsel: can we settle on elementary-community-apps ?
  279. <shnatsel> third-party is probably better... we ARE community.
  280. <agent00tai> shnatsel: ok file a blueprint on it, add the irc log and request feedback from all council members please
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