Roger Stone Interviewed by Nicole Sandler (03/29/2017)

Supplemental document for: "Theory that Roger Stone's go-between for Wikileaks was Randy Credico", link: https://wakelet.com/wake/2d352ae9-febe-44a1-a7bb-51674a2e4bf5

Nicole Sandler interviews Roger Stone, broadcast date March 29, 2017. Full transcript of interview.

File link:
http://nicolesandler.com/3-29-17-roger-stone/

Interview segment starts at 13:20, goes to 1:06:19.

NICOLE SANDLER
So, our interview was supposed to last thirty minutes, went a little longer than that. So, when he called back, I answered the phone, and then I hit record. I have not edited one moment of it, so what you're going to get is from the moment I hit record, until it ended. You ready? Alright. Let's go to the...gods of the audio tape. Here we go. My interview with the one and only, Roger Stone.

ROGER STONE
RT [Russia Today] people are having technical problems with Skype, they've been holding us up for a long time...

SANDLER
Ah...the RT people, that's who you were doing an interview with?

STONE
Yes.

SANDLER
I hope you don't mind, we're going to start taping, this will air publicly tomorrow, on my show. Roger Stone, you just said, "in an interview with RT", who were you talking to over there?

STONE
This was done by a reporter...it was done via Skype, I don't know if she's going to be the final on-air interview, so, but...I've appeared on RT, going back to the 50th anniversary of the John F. Kennedy assassination, where I wrote a New York Times best-selling book, _The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case Against LBJ_, which makes for a very compelling case, and I learned that the big networks, and the cable networks, and the three broadcast networks, won't let you talk about that on television...they are censored, but I learned on RT, you could talk about it, and I did, and they have always given me vigorous questioning, and I have never pulled my punches, in terms of my criticisms of the Russian state...I come up from the Goldwater wing of Republicanism...I hate communism. My own relatives, Hungarian, died in the streets of Budapest in 1956, so, to call me a traitor, is an insult to those circumstances, and this whole thing has been a witch hunt, to prove _something_, which is not true. There is no collusion in-between _this_ Trump associate, and I don't think there is among any others.

SANDLER
Really? So, let me back up a minute...and start, you know, from the beginning, and my first question for you, has to be...you're a self-described "dirty trickster", in fact, you even write about your first foray into electoral politics, back in grade school-

STONE
Yes.

SANDLER
-where you lied and cheated, in order to get your candidate elected. So, why should we believe you?

STONE
Well, it was- First of all, you're right, I did do all those things...it's a style of politics, and a brand of politics, that some people undertand the significance of, and like. Those are the people who buy my books, those are the ones who watch me on Infowars. Sometimes, some of the things that I do are a little over the top, I admit that, because if you're not flamboyant, you can't attract any attention...so, as I often say, don't confuse me with the character I sometimes play, Roger Stone. You guys love it, but tell me which Stephen Colbert is the real one? If you see my point-

SANDLER
Oh no, I know exactly which Stephen Colbert is the real point.

STONE
-here's my point. Here is my point, more importantly, however.

SANDLER
Mmmmmmm.

STONE
Yes, this is a rough and tumble game, it ain't beanbag...the struggles for power in this country have been brutal, every election. But there's one trick that is not in my bag: treason. And if you have evidence of it, step forward.

SANDLER
Okay, well I didn't-

STONE
Put up or shut up.

SANDLER
Okay, I didn't accuse of treason. But I am asking questions-

STONE
But my critics are.

SANDLER
Right.

STONE
A "dirty trickster" is an appellation that comes out of forty years of the political wars in a highly partisan atmosphere, but I have never practiced politics outside the bounds of what was acceptable in that marketplace, ie, I never did anything all my contemporaries weren't doing, perhaps I did it with a greater flair, or greater ingenuity.

SANDLER
But-

STONE
But the idea that I am, in this case, if that's what this is about - treason, no.

SANDLER
Okay, but you've called it a rough and tumble _game_. Do you consider all of this a game? Because I think it's deadly serious.

STONE
Well, it is, but those of us who actually- practitioners of it, I mean, I have been in senior capacity, or significant capacity in ten presidential campaigns, yes, I think a lot of people in this industry, shall we say, are attracted to the _game_ of it. What I'm talking about is the style of electoral systems...if you saw the things Adams and Jefferson said about each other, knew about the slurs against Lincoln, or Cleveland, if you knew about some of the wiretapping that went on by the Kennedys to secure political information, you'd realize the system is pretty rough and tumble, yes.

SANDLER
Okay.

STONE
It's not beanbag. I have sharp elbows. I admit that.

SANDLER
Yes, you do. If somebody asked you, who didn't know who you were, asked you what you do for a living, what would your answer be?

STONE
Well, I would say, he's a New York Times best-selling author, that he is the host of an hour on Infowars every Wednesday at three o'clock eastern time, and I may expand that out...Alex has asked me to expand that, I see it as a platform...I know that I'll immediately be attacked by all of those who would like to quibble with the positions on Alex Jones in a number of issues, I just think that's unfair. I don't agree with everything he says, he doesn't agree with everything I say...if I appear on a news network, why does that mean I must adhere to the views of a different personality on that market? It's not how it works, at, say, CNN.

SANDLER
Right, and I'm not saying that.

STONE
-a platform, it's a platform, and it reaches millions-

SANDLER
Yup.

STONE
-and millions of people-

SANDLER
I know. There are a lot of left leaning hosts on that channel [referencing now Russia Today], who don't have an outlet on, you know, "American corporate television," that have shows there, from Lee Camp, to Ed Schultz. It doesn't mean that I think they're Russian sympathizers, either, I was just asking the question. But you refer to yourself as a "journalist", and I'm wondering if, as a journalist, or as an author, of course, we're here today talking, because you have a new book out-

STONE
I do have journalistic functions, I may be a bit more of an investigative and opinion journalist, but, yeah, I turn out a weekly column for The Stone Cold Truth, I'm required to write and do these videos of all lengths, in order to communicate a point of view, and I do this show. Therefore, I have sources. Which is precisely why I will not say...the name of the man or woman who told me that Assange, and Wikileaks, had a very substantial amount of information on Hillary that they would release in October, and that it included "everything," which I presumed to mean, the erased, or I should say...yeah, I guess erased emails that Huma Abedin and Cheryl Mills-

SANDLER
But that's not what they released, is it? That's not what they released. What Wikileaks released were the hacked DNC emails, and John Podesta's emails-

STONE
That's what they- That's what they opened with, they released a great deal more, but that's what they opened with, yes. That's a different question.

SANDLER
Okay, so, since you brought up Wikileaks, let's go there for a moment. Do you still maintain that you've never spoken with Assange directly, only through an intermediary?

STONE
I've never had any _direct_ conversations with Assange, I've never spoken to the man. I have said, from the beginning, that we had a mutual friend, I called him an intermediary-

SANDLER
Nigel Farage?

STONE
-another time-

SANDLER
Nigel Farage?

STONE
No, it is not Nigel Farage.

SANDLER
Although he has met with him [Assange] in person, and it is a person that you've had dinner with.

STONE
I saw that, I thought it was extraordinary when they asked him, leaving the building, what he'd been there for, and he said, he couldn't remember.

SANDLER
That is kindof weird.

STONE
Unless that was dry British humor, or what. But until that instant, I didn't know that they knew each other, to be honest with you.

SANDLER
Wow. But then when you had dinner with him not too long after that, you wanna tell me that subject never came up?

STONE
Uuuuuuuh, actually have not had dinner with him since then. I had dinner with him before then.

SANDLER
Ah. And no mention of Julian Assange or Wikileaks came up during that dinner?

STONE
No. We were focused- Well, our dinner was pre-election.

SANDLER
Okay. Okay. So, going back to-

STONE
Brexit had happened, and we all saw the tidal wave headed this way, and we were right.

SANDLER
Alright, so going back to your- as an opinion journalist, and I get it, I'm the same way, I'm not a journalist, and then I go digging for facts, I voice an opinion, and my opinions are backed up with facts...you want to tell me you've never lied?

STONE
We're not going to get into _that game_. You want to tell me you've never lied?

SANDLER
Um, not knowingly, and if I do, I try to correct it as soon as possible.

STONE
We're not doing psychobabble, if that's what you had in mind.

SANDLER
No, no, I'm asking why should we believe you-

STONE
-if you want to talk about-

SANDLER
If you say you're a dirty trickster, and you-

STONE
Here's why, here's why-

SANDLER
Uh huh.

STONE
Because my civil liberties have been violated-

SANDLER
How?

STONE
Because the government has been wiretapping me, according to the front page of the New York Times, on Janaury 20th, headlined "The Wikileaks...", pardon me, "Wiretapped Data Used In Inquiry of Trump Associates"- [on-line title for piece is "Intercepted Russian Communications Part of Inquiry Into Trump Associates" link: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/us/politics/trump-russia-associates-investigation.html ]

SANDLER
Okay...

STONE
That article goes on to say that intelligence sources said that they had emails, financial records, financial transactions, and then, later on the 30th, they would essentially recycle the same story, with the notable exception that they had intercepts of phone calls [there is no such New York Times story on January 30th, but there is a Times story which matches this description on February 14, 2017 - "Trump Campaign Aides Had Repeated Contacts With Russian Intelligence" link: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/us/politics/paul-manafort-donald-trump.html ].

SANDLER
Right? Well, but maybe they were caught up-

STONE
No! No!

SANDLER
Okay, go ahead. Go ahead.

STONE
What the probable cause or evidence...for such a wiretapping, would be I have no idea. Nothing. In my records. So, therefore, knowing that my records have been fully available to the authorities, that this very phone call may be monitored, they'll find an enormous amount of things about me and my family, with my life, my wife, my children, my grandchildren, businesses, everything I work on a daily basis, my communications with dozens and dozens of reporters, their friends and business associates, but I tell you what they won't find: any collusion with the Russian state. The end.

SANDLER
Okay.

STONE
The inference that Guccifer 2.0 is most definitely a Russian agent is vigorously disputed. Number one.

SANDLER
Well, I don't know about "vigorously", disputed by you, but not by the intelligence community.

STONE
Why would you trust the intelligence community?

SANDLER
Why should we trust you? You lie about everything! Why would we believe you? You're a self-described dirty trickster.

STONE
Here's why. You're actually a mouthpiece for them.

SANDLER
I'm not a mouthpiece for anybody. I'm no mouthpiece for anybody.

STONE
No. Wrong. Let me be very clear. They lied about Benghazi, they lied about-

SANDLER
No! No!

STONE
-they lied about rendition, they lied about weapons of mass destruction-

SANDLER
Well, George [W.] Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction.

STONE
-Abu Dhabi prison-

SANDLER
-you mean Abu Ghraib? Abu Dhabi? You mean Abu Ghraib. Okay.

STONE
-they lied about Iran-Contra, they lied about the Kennedy assassination-

SANDLER
According to you.

STONE
-who they are.

SANDLER
You think LBJ killed Kennedy. So, you know, that shows where you're coming from.

STONE
You're so dumb, you think he didn't.

SANDLER
I'm so _dumb_? Wow.

STONE
If you can't figure it out-

SANDLER
You know nothing- That LBJ killed Kennedy. Alright. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

STONE
-do some reading-

SANDLER
I've done some reading.

STONE
-LBJ had means, motive, opporunity.

SANDLER
I've done lots of reading. Let me ask you, you've asked why they would wiretap you - I'm speaking with Roger Stone - maybe because you said in an interview on your podcast-

STONE
Here's why you shouldn't believe them.

SANDLER
Yeah, okay.

STONE
They have all my documents.

SANDLER
Uh huh.

STONE
And hopefully, I'll have to testify.

SANDLER
Will you testify under oath?

STONE
-has no result-

SANDLER
Will you testify under oath?

STONE
I will testify under oath-

SANDLER
Okay...

STONE
-voluntarily, and I'd like to do so in a public setting.

SANDLER
Mmmmmhmmmm.

STONE
That was widely publicized Friday, perhaps you didn't see it. And, when nothing happens, when it is proven that I...am right, there is no Russian collusion, you will see why you should have believed me.

SANDLER
Okay, well-

STONE
That's why-

SANDLER
Okay, when you say-

STONE
-gray area-

SANDLER
-when you say that you know for a fact-

STONE
-gray area-

SANDLER
Okay, can I ask a question?

STONE
Sure, of course.

SANDLER
When you say, you knew for a fact that Julian Assange has all this information, that he's going to expose them, when you tell Alex Jones that you have backchannel communications with Assange, when you say that "It will soon be Podesta's time in the barrel", when you say-

STONE
Correct.

SANDLER
-you had all this, with relative certainty, that stuff was going to happen on _Wednesday_, on Wednesday, "Hillary Clinton is done #Wikileaks", how would you know that?

STONE
Okay, let's go through it, de-construct it. My claim that Podesta's time in the barrel is based on the fact that my partner, Manafort, is under siege, and I have just seen an extensive memo, that would ultimately become the monograph by Peter Schweizer, "From Russia With Love" [sic, "From Russia With Money", direct link to pdf report: http://www.g-a-i.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Report-Skolkvovo-08012016-2.pdf ], detailing the Podesta brothers' and Hillary's business activities in Eastern Europe and particularly, in Russia. And I know, that that story, and many others, including a blockbuster at the Wall Street Journal are coming. I did not twerk [sic], "John Podesta's emails" never left my mouth, I did not say "#Wikileaks"-

SANDLER
No, but what did that mean?

STONE
Because it meant _his_ business would be under scrutiny. Look up what the expression means in idiomatic English. _He_ will be under scrutiny.

SANDLER
Uh huh. Okay.

STONE
That's what it means! And he was! But to say, oh, that proves that you knew his emails would be hacked, _conjecture_. _Speculation_. No proof.

SANDLER
Okay.

STONE
By the way, he was...he got a real working over in his businesses, from the mainstream _and_ the alternative media.

SANDLER
Okay. Now, Guccifer. So, you are-

STONE
Yes.

SANDLER
-you are provoked, you decided to be a fanboy of this Guccifer 2.0, and you contend that your only communication with him was via direct messages on twitter, and that you've released all of them.

STONE
See here, girlfriend...

SANDLER
Girlfriend?

STONE
See here, girlfriend...

SANDLER
Yeah...girlfriend?

STONE
Fan boy, let's be very clear here.

SANDLER
Okay.

STONE
You call sources, I call sources.

SANDLER
YOU SAID YOU WERE THRILLED HE WAS RE-INSTATED BY TWITTER. That sounds to me like you're a fanboy.

STONE
Stop. Stop. On August 5th, I wrote a piece for Breitbart, that detailed the role of, uh, Guccifer, in the hacking of the Russian, the emails that the deep state would like us to believe the Russians hacked, and the fact that he gave them, to Wikileaks. _After_ that period, not before, I saw, I'd seen, chatter on Twitter, that he was...banned, and I just had that stuck in my subconscious, and then I saw, uh, that he had been re-instated. It doesn't sound like I'm a fanboy, it sounds like I don't like censorship, censorship of anyone...in the Stalin-Hitler style, is a bad idea. If you want to see my exchange, you may read the whole thing, cover to cover, I've released it-

SANDLER
I saw it! But how do I know that's the whole thing, cover to cover? We have your word to take for it, and-

STONE
Let your beloved intelligence services prove otherwise.

SANDLER
But that infers that-

STONE
That's how.

SANDLER
-they're monitoring all of your communications.

STONE
The fact that this even appears in the fake news site where it was planted, The Smoking Gun ["Roger Stone's Russian Hacking "Hero"" http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/investigation/roger-stone-and-guccifer-913684 ], and picked up as a meme, is based on the fact-

SANDLER
Alright.

STONE
-that I'm under surveillance as per the news.

SANDLER
Can we talk "fake news" for a moment?

STONE
-I put them out. So, when you can't- I had no other communications with him, so when you can't [STONE is clenching his teeth hard here] find other proof, you start speculating again.

SANDLER
Okay.

STONE
You're _speculating_.

SANDLER
Are you familiar with the term "gaslighting"?

STONE
[pause] No, I can't say that I am.

SANDLER
You're not? It's sortof when an entity, say, Donald Trump, keeps saying things that are notably not true, in order to make the person getting the information, believe that they're going crazy. For instance, going on and on about fake news, while he's consistently promoting _Fox_. Do you want to tell me that Fox is actually news? Because to me, Fox is the original fake news channel.

STONE
I understand, I understand, you're entitled to your point of view. You're even entitled, in this country, to be wrong.

SANDLER
[laughs] Okay.

STONE
First of all, I think it would be ridiculous for anyone to say...and for the president to say, that all mainstream media is fake news. That is- And even that mainstream media is biased, biased against you. That's not true. Some are, some are not. There are many, I think, working journalists, men and women, who are just trying to report a story, not color it with their opinion, not color it with their newspaper's opinion, or the website's opinion, and write it. And get it right.

SANDLER
Exactly.

STONE
There are others who are more malicious, and have an agenda. We know that. Maybe that agenda is born out of a marketing strategy. If we champion a certain point of view, on CNN or MSNBC, it'll help coalesce that group of people that are watching the stations very carefully and agree with us, or we can, with a greater number of watchers, charge more for our advertising, and we're commercially successful. Okay? I understand that. But uh-

SANDLER
But is it okay to do that, and call it news?

STONE
Well, I'll tell you what, it isn't okay to do. It's not okay, for CNN to let Ted Cruz call me an unprintable name ["ratfucker", someone who engages in low blow tricks for political gain] in prime time, twice. And not afford me a chance to respond. He accused me of something I did not do [Stone was alleged, by Cruz, to be the source of a National Enquirer story listing Cruz's mistresses], and he had no proof that I had done it...

SANDLER
You've called Hillary Clinton things! And I'm no big Hillary Clinton fan, but you've called her things! Without her having a chance to respond. You think every slur- [STONE audibly stammers here] If it's an interview-

STONE
If I may...

SANDLER
Go ahead.

STONE
If I may...they let John Podesta charge me...as I've just gone through this, John Podesta, who can produce not an iota of proof...who says I foreshadowed, projecting that I knew about his email...

SANDLER
You did! You absolutely did!

STONE
Yes, but perhaps it's coincidental.

SANDLER
Oh, wow.

STONE
-the word email never came out of my mouth.

SANDLER
You're right. Because maybe you were being cryptic. You were trying to let out that you knew something, without spilling- without opening yourself up to treason charges.

STONE
[said while SANDLER says her previous line] Maybe I wasn't. Maybe it was- [said in response to "being cryptic"] Conjecture. Speculation. Conjecture. Speculation. [SANDLER finishes with "treason charges"] Conjecture. Speculation.

SANDLER
And that's not news.

STONE
I deal in facts. Attempts to deal in facts. To try. [cross talk] Go ahead.

SANDLER
But you're just explaining that you're not doing that.

STONE
No, I'm dealing in the facts. You have no proof because it didn't happen.

SANDLER
But you said it!

STONE
I didn't know his email- No, I didn't say it. [sounds like he's biting down on something hard, like he's biting down on a piece of cloth in the side of his mouth] No, I didn't say it. I say things that you have added up to, but I never say it in those words.

SANDLER
So, you're-

STONE
Repeat: [inaudible] Repeat: [inaudible]

SANDLER
So you're ascribing all of this- You're ascribing all of this to coincidence. That's a lot of coincidences. Between you-

STONE
Show me your proof.

SANDLER
Okay, let me ask you about Paul Manafort.

STONE
Show me the proof that would hold up in a court of law.

SANDLER
I can't!

STONE
Show me proof-

SANDLER
I can't!

STONE
I know! Because there is none.

SANDLER
And that's not my job! Well...who knows. It's why we do investigations.

STONE
It's your job to _smear_ and _insinuate_-

SANDLER
Okay.

STONE
-and speculate, and call it facts.

SANDLER
Okay. Let me ask you this. You introduced Donald Trump to Paul Manafort, you guys go back fifty years, right? [phone ringtone starts up in background] Ah, hold on, sorry, that's my phone. You introduced Donald Trump to Paul Manafort, with the idea of Manafort taking over his campaign?

STONE
The campaign...

SANDLER
Was he qualified for that?

STONE
[incredulous] _Qualified_?

SANDLER
Yeah.

STONE
Good lord...the campaign had just lost the Wisconsin primary, the North Dakota primary, the Colorado primary, and they'd had the delegates stolen from them in Louisiana. They still had daunting primaries in Indiana and California, to finish out the season, for which they did not have the money. The Republican establishment, working with Ted Cruz, began working on the rules and platform committee, to find a way to hijack this nomination at convention, as was done in 1952 by the supporters of Dwight Eisenhower...who went into the convention, and got the nomination Robert Taft thought he had locked up. And Paul Manafort is among a very small, handful, of politicians, who because he comes from a state, my native state [Connecticut], where we select our statewide candidates in conventions, not primaries, had a great deal of convention experience. Running the convention operations for Gerald Ford in 1976, for Bob Dole, and having been peripherally involved in some of the Bush convention activities. So, he was actually- That was the problem. Trump himself was concerned the nomination could be stolen through chicanery, but he had no convention operation. Convention committees are made up of two people appointed by each state around the time of the primary-

SANDLER
Mmmmmhmmmm.

STONE
-or caucus. But nobody in the Trump campaign had been keeping track of who was appointed, and no effort had been mounted to ensure that Trump supporters sat on those committees, and indeed, even though Trump swept the Texas delegates, the members of the rules and the credentials committee from Texas, were hostile to Trump. For example. So yes, Paul Manafort was _the right person_ at the right time.

SANDLER
Okay, now you have said numerous times, that Manafort has no Russian ties. None whatsoever.

STONE
Uh, yeah, I was- That is, that was a mis-statement, I was unaware of his work for Oleg Deripaska. I note also that Oleg did quite a bit of work with Tony and John _Podesta_, uh-

SANDLER
We're not talking about John Podesta now, we're talking about Donald Trump.

STONE
OF COURSE NOT, DON'T- EXACTLY. But a more inclusive way to look at that, that's an important fact, if Manafort, if Derepaska is Manafort's control on, or influence on Trump, which would be hard to do, since their contract ended in 2009, and I believe somebody sued somebody, subsequently, how that projects to Russian collusion, in 2016, seems to me to be a bit of stretch [sic], but I will candidly say I was unaware he had-

SANDLER
Okay!

STONE
-this Russian client.

SANDLER
Good for you. Alright. But, so there was some Russian contact there, you just had unequivocally said, "No." Now, what about Mike Flynn? 'Cuz I don't know about your relationship with Michael Flynn, was or is...but do you want to say he had no contact as well?

STONE
I don't know Michael Flynn.

SANDLER
Okay. You've got to understand, that when there's this much smoke, there's usually fire. We're leaning about contact between Manafort-

STONE
Nonononono-

SANDLER
-between Flynn-

STONE
In all honesty, the smoke is all concocted by-

SANDLER
-you and Guccifer-

STONE
-the smoke is all manufactured by the Hillary spin.

SANDLER
Nooooooo. See, that's not true. Because I'm not a Hillary Clinton fan. I don't take anything they say- I take it all with a grain of salt. They're not- They never spoke for me, I don't go on what they say.

STONE
The investigative-

SANDLER
From-

STONE
The FB- The investigators find...when they try to trace this thing, to its...to its beginning, it is always a press story...there is no hard evidence of collusion, _to date_. And, as I pointed out-

SANDLER
Well, you do-

STONE
-because of the content and the timing...because of the content and the timing, of my brief exchange on Twitter...which is, by the way, we still have right of free association...

SANDLER
Yes, we do.

STONE
...anybody in the country can talk to anybody else you want, even though it seems to upset you...I did not believe he was a Russian asset at the time I wrote my piece, I'd never even heard the charge...I certainly didn't think he was a Russian asset when I told him he should not be censored. And beyond that, the exchange is...banal. So. You know-

SANDLER
As much as we know. As much as we know. And there are some who question-

STONE
THERE IS NOTHING ELSE, but you just want to prophesize here.

SANDLER
Okay, let me ask you about your book, Roger Stone. So, your book is all about Donald Trump's 2016 campaign, and his...winning the presidency, [laughs] against all odds. _The Making of the President 2016: How Donald Trump Orchestrated A Revolution_. Now, you were only part of the campaign for its first couple of months, before he even declared. You weren't part of it after that. Yet you write with great authority on all that took place. You-

STONE
I'm a shrewd analysis [sic] of the political business. [becomes obvious from here on that STONE might be very drunk]

SANDLER
Were you- were you involved in the campaign in ways that we weren't aware at the time?

STONE
Uh...I made it very clear that I had occasional conversations with the candidate. Um...and that I am a prolific _memo writer_. That's about it.

SANDLER
Okay, but then, how would you know about the inner workings of, you know, what happened behind the scenes?

STONE
Because uh, because the walls have ears, and there are many people I have worked with, for many years, in the Trump operation, that know I have the candidate's best interest at heart. _My sources_ are quite good.

SANDLER
Okay, now, but, that's what Donald Trump would classify as a leak, isn't it?

STONE
No. Not- Show me something I have leaked that has been detrimental-

SANDLER
No, I'm asking people leaked, people leaked to _you_. So, in other words, things we hear from people still in the White House, those are leaks, and those are bad, but if someone in the campaign is talking to you, that's okay? Because you're an ally?

STONE
Your reasoning is contorted [SANDLER laughs] and perverted.

SANDLER
Perverted?

STONE
I am a, I am a-

SANDLER
Shall we talk about perversions?

STONE
I am a Trump supporter-

SANDLER
Okay.

STONE
-exercising my rights of communication, and free association, to get information, both for the purposes of reporting, at my site and my syndicated radio station, and my Infowars stand-up-

SANDLER
Mmmmhmmm.

STONE
-and for the purposes of furthering a political agenda I support, i.e., the election of Donald Trump.

SANDLER
Why did you think Donald Trump would be a good president?

STONE
Uh, cuz he is- independent, and has no real connection to the...failed policies of both parties-

SANDLER
Right.

STONE
-over the last thirty years. I think that he, uh, that, you know, that he could...because of the odd way his election was financed, he doesn't end up owing a lot of normal, you know, a lot of the usual suspects...

SANDLER
Wait, you're saying he's self-financed, you're still pushing that he self-financed his election?!

STONE
No no no, I'm not.

SANDLER
Okay.

STONE
But in all honesty, he raised- In truth, other than what he did put in, he raised so little money, that no, any one donor gave him the kind of money that turns the head.

SANDLER
True. I agree with that.

STONE
They were just not very good fundraisers.

SANDLER
Oh yeah, I hear you. I mean, I think he tapped into something-

STONE
I think they raised- I guesstimated that their whole side, which would include a couple of the small, independent campaigns, all of which were woefully unfunded, they just, they had a hard- I mean, the Trump people, at the low dollar level, sucked up all the donors.

SANDLER
Right.

STONE
Their low dollar, and mid level fundraising was phenomenal, but it was all, you know, direct response related...email.

SANDLER
Should we get all the money out of politics?

STONE
Well, there's...if those in the media who currently charge for their access want to give it to us for free, we wouldn't have to.

SANDLER
Oh my god! Do you deny that Donald Trump got billions of dollars worth of free airtime from all the cable networks, CNN, who you guys vilify, carried his rallies ad nauseum.

STONE
Yeah...yeah, and the payback is that Hillary got millions and millions of dollars in negative advertising attacking Donald Trump, by CNN, in the fall.

SANDLER
Whaaaat.

STONE
So, the networks-

SANDLER
I still saw Trump rallies played end to end. So, you know-

STONE
[stumbles around] That's true. Well, you don't see much of that after the nomination phase...

SANDLER
[laughs] We did.

STONE
...and the entire overall tone takes on a more negative slant. So, what is that worth? Commercially, if that was advertising, some of these magazine pieces are critical-

SANDLER
So, why did you tout the fact that you're a dirty trickster? And other things that you have on your website that most people would...not put that on their website, because it puts them in a less than favorable light.

STONE
One man's dirty trick is another man's civic participation.

SANDLER
But this Donald Trump's M.O., isn't it?

STONE
Dirty trickster is in the eyes of the beholder.

SANDLER
In his _Art of the Deal_, he talks about, you have to lie. So, he's lying to the American people. He lied when he said [he had] a health care plan, didn't he?

STONE
Let me give you a piece of advice.

SANDLER
Yeah?

STONE
-give you a piece of advice.

SANDLER
Uh huh?

STONE
Don't judge; only god judges.

SANDLER
Oh; oh god. You believe god ordained Donald Trump to be president?

STONE
Don't speak as if you're better than us.

SANDLER
I'm not!

STONE
You lie, you [inaudible]

SANDLER
-I don't put my faith in an imaginary being.

STONE
Are you a journalist or not?

SANDLER
I'm not a journalist. I'm a talk show host.

STONE
I see. So, what are you?

SANDLER
I'm a talk show host. I'm somebody who has opinions, opinions based in fact. I read, if I get something wrong-

STONE
_No_. Your opinions so far in this show seem to be based on..._conjecture_, and you seem to get most of your exercise jumping to conclusions.

SANDLER
No, that's not true. I'm asking you questions, and so far, you haven't disavowed me of any of my beliefs.

STONE
I'm smelling a lot of fake news here...

SANDLER
Oh, okay.

STONE
...absolutely.

SANDLER
Fake news?! Fake news is anything that's put a negative light on your candidate. Anything that he doesn't like.

STONE
Fake news is anything you endlessly repeat because you heard it from the government.

SANDLER
No, that's nonsense! You're saying things about me, you don't even know who I am!

STONE
-nonsensical!

SANDLER
-nothing about me!

STONE
-nonsensical! You're being nonsensical!

SANDLER
_I am_?

STONE
You're being nuts.

SANDLER
Okay, when I was talking about gaslighting, it's the old rubber glue thing, I'm rubber, you're glue, this is what you're doing, and it's how Donald Trump governs-

STONE
Nononononono.

SANDLER
-like he's in third grade.

STONE
[laughs, but also stumbles around a bit] They spit out this meme for you...the intelligence services, and you just mindlessly keep repeating it, even though you have no facts. Like some kind of magpie.

SANDLER
I wait until the investigation is done, and then I read what the reports say, and-

STONE
That'll be the time for you to apologize for your insinuendo today...

SANDLER
Ooooh..."my insinuendo"...

STONE
...as the late Leo Gorcey would say.

SANDLER
Okay. Um, you talked about me being "perverted", uh, we can end on a great note here. Did you ever have- Were you ever on any of Jeffrey Epstein's airplane rides?

STONE
Never.

SANDLER
Never?

STONE
Were you?

SANDLER
No, never was.

STONE
Good, we have something in common.

SANDLER
Cool. But Donald Trump was.

STONE
[pause] And so was Bill-

SANDLER
And so was Bill Clinton. Absolutely. Look, I'm no apologist for the Clintons. Um, never said I was. And see again, you're ascribing things to me that you know nothing about. You blocked me on Twitter!

STONE
Well, let me ask you a question.

SANDLER
Yeah.

STONE
I've written a book on the Clintons, it has an entire chapter on Epstein. Have you read it?

SANDLER
No, I haven't. And actually, I tried reading- I tried reading _The Making of the President 2016_, honestly, I couldn't get through the first chapter.

STONE
I see. That's because you're a hater. That's why.

SANDLER
Yeah, you know, I may be. I'll run one last thing by you.

STONE
You can't even read- You can't even read the material when you're gonna interview someone, because you're such a hyperpartisan- [it might be the audio, but he really sounds woozy now]

SANDLER
I'm not a hyperpartisan. I'm of no party affiliation. But: let me ask you this question. Donald Trump, he talked during the whole campaign about, that he had a health care plan. He was going to cover everybody. It was going to be cheaper, it was going to be better, it was going to be terrific, so great your head'll spin. This bill that they put forth was Paul Ryan's plan-

STONE
Yes.

SANDLER
-which did not cover everybody, in fact it kicked twenty four million people off insurance, including me. In July of 2016, I was diagnosed with lung cancer. If not for the Affordable Care Act, I'd be dying of lung cancer right now...but because I was able to purchase insurance through the Affordable Care Act, even with a pre-existing condition, I'm now alive, and guess what? I'm six months cancer free. This new-

STONE
I'm glad to hear that.

SANDLER
Thank you, I am too. The American Health Care Act [Trumpcare or Ryancare] would have signed my death sentence. Why was that okay?

STONE
I don't...I didn't like this bill, I must tell you. It was Paul Ryan's bill. Therein lies the problem.

SANDLER
What happened to Donald Trump's health care bill?

STONE
I- I- Obviously, he made a decision to let Paul Ryan run with this ball, and they had a fail. Given this plan, I'm just as happy, although the president has had a setback, it's not yet a defeat...I don't know why we had to rush. If we are serious about replacing the current system with something that doesn't let people, like you, slip through the gaps, why do we need to rush? I don't know why we need to rush.

SANDLER
Would you be in favor of medicare for all? Letting me buy into medicare, eight years before I'm eligible?

STONE
Uh, I'm more interested to see what you could do with block grants to the states.

SANDLER
What would a block grant to the state do for me?!

STONE
[stumbles, that was a hard clean blow to the jaw] I'm a- Let me back up. I don't know enough about your specific-

SANDLER
ANYBODY LIKE ME.

STONE
-why you're [fades out]

SANDLER
I HAVE A PRE-EXISTING CONDITION. I am a cancer survivor. I have a pre-existing conditon. Under the old system, I could not buy insurance. What would a block grant to the states [laughs] do to allow me to buy health insurance?

STONE
I misunderstood your question. I don't disagree with your position. Yes, a new system should certainly cover your pre-existing condition, this is something I went through with my own father. So, I'm familiar with-

SANDLER
Yeah, because everybody goes through it.

STONE
-talked about it.

SANDLER
Yeah, right. Why doesn't Donald Trump come out with a medicare for- He said he wants to work with the Democrats, Bernie Sanders is introducing another medicare for all bill, why doesn't Donald Trump talk to Bernie-

STONE
Uh, you know what I would actually do, if I were the president? I would go to Rand Paul, and tell him to get a meeting with Bernie Sanders, and see if there's any way that they can, kindof fit these things together, [SANDLER laughs] and come up with a bill.

SANDLER
RAND PAUL DOESN'T WANT ANYBODY GETTING ANYTHING. Rand Paul wants me to die if I can't pay the exorbitant premiums that the health care extortionists want to charge me.

STONE
That's the problem. He's got other things in his plan that I like. That's one I don't like. That's why I didn't just say, endorse Rand Paul's plan...I said, you gotta give. There's gotta be a way to get something that's more market based, uh, but better than the current system, because, as you know, the current system is driving the insurers out, providing lesser choice-

SANDLER
Well, you know why that is, right? You know that Marco Rubio stuck a little poison pill into the Affordable Care Act, that kept the government from making the insurance companies whole, if too many people who were sick got into the system, and it cost them too much money. It would even itself out, over the long run, but Marco Rubio put a provision in, at the eleventh hour, that is keeping the government from making the insurance companies whole, from making it- From driving them out of business.

STONE
It's amazing what power these insurance company lobbyists have, isn't it?

SANDLER
It really is. Yes, it is. So, Donald Trump said he was going to drain the swamp. Why didn't he?

STONE
Uh, well, his presidency is not yet over-

SANDLER
But he- He's got how many Goldman Sachs executives in his cabinet?

STONE
Yes, that is, uh, that is...that is _notable_, I would hope that they are highly capable people, [inaudible] submitted to the president's agenda, and not the other way around.

SANDLER
They have no knowledge of the agencies they are running! And, in fact, the one thing they all have in common is they've all said at one time or another, that they want to do away with the agencies that they're tasked with running now. Which doesn't instill a lot of confidence in people like me, who would love to see things changed in Washington.

STONE
There's a lot of very good men and women who I think could serve this administration, than some who have been selected, who have the added advantage of having vast governmental experience, experience at the level that they'd be able to do the job they were appointed to, and, were loyal, and in some cases, particularly effective Trump supporters, from the beginning. Those are not the people, largely, being hired in this administration. This administration seems to be hiring establishment Republican re-treads, and, that is, not yet, until we got to...health care, where I think, letting Ryan play the ball is proving, had been a mistake...this President, if he had any sense of humor, first thing he would have said was, "Well, I'm sorry to see Speaker Ryan's bill go down, and I'll have my bill out next week." Would have got a laugh.

SANDLER
Well, why doesn't he do that? If he really had a health care bill, why didn't he do that?

STONE
Well, I don't think- He's kindof like Roosevelt, Roosevelt promised huge things for which he did not have yet a specific plan. And if you look at, the first term, and into some of the second term...the courts, and the congress, thwarted everything Roosevelt was trying to do, and Roosevelt was putting things up that were not necessarily progressive. In other words, he was trying anything that might pull the country out of the problem, right and left, balance the budget, for example, but he also starts, you know, the trickle of...social welfare spending...the courts knock it down for a while, he just keeps coming back with essentially the same plan, in a different form, until he gets something, or a political opportunity to pass something, and of course, he becomes one of our greatest presidents. I think this is a setback, you know, they should re-think it and go back in.

SANDLER
If you could have-

STONE
-something better.

SANDLER
If you could have president Trump do one thing, get one thing done, what would it be?

STONE
Revitalize the economy. If you revitalize the economy, if you have some uptick in jobs, and some real economic growth-

SANDLER
But you do know that there's been a very slow but steady uptick in jobs, and GDP, and everything in the eight years Obama was in office? You have to admit that.

STONE
Uh...I haven't studied it, one of the things that has-

SANDLER
WE WERE LOSING EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND JOBS A MONTH! When he took office.

STONE
But we are, but we are counting our unemployment rate, and we're jiggering the numbers-

SANDLER
NO! We are not!

STONE
-the rolls, those who have stopped-

SANDLER
Oh, come on. Now you're the one who's echoing the bullshit. You're going with those, with the Breitbart-

STONE
That's a fact.

SANDLER
Alex Jones-

STONE
That's a fact.

SANDLER
No. But yet the Trump White House was so quick to jump on the jobs numbers, even though they weren't actually his jobs numbers, for the first month he was in office, because they looked good. You know, you can't have it both ways.

STONE
Well, they are, at a minimum, two contradictory pieces of information.

SANDLER
Okay. So, you don't see-

STONE
Neither one-

SANDLER
-they weren't the same-

STONE
-in all honesty, I would have to go on-line right now and look up job growth-

SANDLER
[exasperated] OH MY GOD.

STONE
-because I'm not-

SANDLER
Just google "bikini chart". You can't miss it. You can see it right there, a picture's worth five million words. Anyway, I've kept-

STONE
I do know, though, much of the polling that I saw the last election, voters identified lack of jobs and unemployment, as among the highest driving issues.

SANDLER
Well, we started losing the jobs, of course, during the Bush years...they did start coming back, I will tell you, at salaries that were a fraction at the jobs we lost. That's true. But the jobs did come back, and the unemployment rate has fallen precipitously, and that happened over the eight years of the Obama administration, and for Trump to come in now and take credit for it, is disingenuous. But, you know, there's that. Anyway, [claps hands, like "show's over"] Roger Stone, I've kept you much longer than I was supposed to, I appreciate your time, the book is out. It is called _The Making of the Presidency 2016_ [sic], um, I did have, _The Making of the President 2016_, sorry, _How Donald Trump Orchestrated A Revolution_, I'm not quite sure it was a revolution, um, that was what Bernie Sanders was all about. But, last question: are you a Bernie Sanders fan?

STONE
You know, I came to be one...I said some cheeky things about him on twitter, early on ["Soviet Agent Bernie Saunders, Should be arrested for treason and shot." link: https://twitter.com/RogerJStoneJr/status/457025868917776384] He really did turn me around. And then he lost me by endorsing Hillary.

SANDLER
Yeah.

STONE
I mean, there were elements of his message that he was right on about. Wall Street and its corrupting influences, amen. Why shouldn't the hedge fund guys pay the same taxes as everyone else?

SANDLER
They should. THEY SHOULD. Do you agree with that?

STONE
Absolutely.

SANDLER
When Donald Trump introduces his so-called "tax plan", tax cuts, which is now how they're talking about it, it should make hedge fund managers and people like Donald Trump, in his income tax bracket, pay the same rates as everyone else? Or that they should-

STONE
Trump is not a hedge fund manager.

SANDLER
I understand, but he's a billionaire.

STONE
-hedge fund income is different from everyone else, so...they would be compensurate, they would be paying a compensurate [sic, he means commensurate] rate with what Trump is paying now.

SANDLER
You think it's okay that Trump pays less than the top tax rate?

STONE
Uuuuummmmmmm, that's an excellent question, I can't imagine that he does not.

SANDLER
[laughs] Well, we could find that out very easily, if he'd release his income taxes.

STONE
But we're talking about _the rate_, we're not talking about the actual payments-

SANDLER
Right. Exactly.

STONE
We know, through these leaks, he has massive losses that he is legally allowed to deduct.

SANDLER
Yeah...which makes me ask the question his his, you know, his his...his business acuity.

STONE
[pause] Well...maybe. Maybe not. He did manage to land himself and get elected president.

SANDLER
That's true.

STONE
He had fifteen very profitable seasons on NBC.

SANDLER
[laughs, a "are you kidding me?" laugh] That's true. Can't deny that. Alright, Roger Stone...are you down here in South Florida now? You're a neighbor of mine.

STONE
I am.

SANDLER
Who's going to be our next governor?

STONE
[pause] I have no idea. It's a very uninspiring field. To me. I am not a Rick Scott fan.

SANDLER
Oh, neither am I.

STONE
And, I was also not a Charlie Christ fan.

SANDLER
Neither was I.

STONE
I liked, at least on a personal level, I liked him better than the ice king, Rick Scott.

SANDLER
Voldemort. Right.

STONE
That's right. Lord Voldemere. [sic] So, it is...I know that the Agricultural Commissioner, Adam Putnam, is thinking of running, but nobody that I have seen...

SANDLER
Would you run for office?

STONE
...is lighting the world on fire. [answering office question] No, I don't think so. You know, if, I mean, the libertarian...first, I'm a registered libertarian, so I cannot run as a Republican candidate for anything. I changed my registration, when the party nominated Mitt Romney...because he turned my stomach...

SANDLER
Okay, I understand that too.

STONE
...and therefore, I left the party. And...by the time I wanted to return to the party, in order to vote for Trump in the Republican primary, the deadline had passed. I didn't realize that. So, there was no point in me going through the exercise. And therefore, I'm sitting out here as a registered Libertarian. They, of course, have a U.S. Senate nomination...and they're on the ballot. If I had something to say at that point, I might do so. I think that operatives that run for political office have a bad history...I'm not sure it's the greatest idea in the world, but I'd consider it. I'd rather write my books.

SANDLER
Okay. You do that. And if you still have Donald Trump's ear, which you say you do, please talk some sense to him, and tell him "drain the swamp" means drain the swamp. And if he'd actually-

STONE
One of the things that's concerned me enormously, is this idea put forward by Sean Spicer, which I'm hoping is a trial balloon. That they are going to begin, you know, enforcing federal marijuana laws, in the states that legalized-

SANDLER
WAIT A MINUTE. I thought you guys believed in states' rights. I thought you believed in states' rights.

STONE
-recreational marijuana.

SANDLER
-you believed in states' rights.

STONE
We do, we do. That's my problem.

SANDLER
The state voted marijuana should be legal. Marijuana is a hell of a lot less harmful than alcohol, I'll tell you that.

STONE
But this is a different question. Hear me out.

SANDLER
Okay.

STONE
During the campaign, Trump took the position that states that legalized medicinal marijuana should do what they want. That it was a states' rights issues, and he was fine with it .

SANDLER
Yup.

STONE
He also takes the states' rights position on transgender bathrooms, and on abortion. _Why_ in the name of...the states that have recreational marijuana, which is legally approved under the same states' standards as medicinal marijuana, but taxed at a different level, but that's not significant...would you crack down on that.

SANDLER
Good question.

STONE
That makes no sense, and that is essentially what Session is saying.

SANDLER
Yeah.

STONE
The problems are manifest. First, because of the tax rates, any businessman will shove all marijuana into the medicinal side of his business...and only sell to people with the appropriate medical cards. People who want to buy marijuana for recreational use, there'll be a new market created for the cartel...that has disappeared.

SANDLER
Yup.

STONE
You'll put hundreds of thousands of people who work today in this legal industry out of work. You will bankrupt states and counties like Colorado, and some of the major counties in California that have already budgeted this perfectly legal revenue. This is a bad idea.

SANDLER
I agree. Sessions is a bad idea. Sessions was a bad idea.

STONE
Well...that's not what our debate's about. But...it's a bad idea. And I'm going to seek to persuade the president that it's a bad idea.

SANDLER
Good. And while you're at it-

STONE
-fit with his views. It isn't consistent with his views.

SANDLER
Good job. And while you're at it, tell the people up at Tallahassee to get off their asses, and write a medical marijuana bill, so that those of us who need it can get it.

STONE
It's _amazing_ how long this is taking.

SANDLER
Yes, it is.

STONE
It's really outrageous. It's also outrageous the way those in the nursing industry who'd always been opposed to this, swooped in, and essentially obtained all the rights to build it, sell it, profit from it.

SANDLER
Alright, that I don't know anything about.

STONE
Only in Florida.

SANDLER
That's the reason I call it Flori-duh. And on that note, Roger Stone...

STONE
Have a nice day.

SANDLER
You too. Thank you very much. Buh bye. And with that, my interview with Roger Stone ended. Uh, fifty two minutes, it ran. I tried to end it a few times, before it actually, he finally let me off the phone. Man, the guy likes the sound of his own voice. Um, I need a shower now. Thank you for bearing with me. And bearing with that. Why did you interview him? Because he was there.