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<geal> isn't there an irc meeting right now?
<lamneth> hola!  What's the topic?
<lamneth> Are we here at the right time?  Didn't Stéphane specify 20:00 Paris time ?
<lamneth> Btw, Montréal, Québec here!  Who's who and who's where?
<laurent_> hi
<laurent_> yes
<alienhard> Stef is coming... (I asked him in private chat ;)
<lamneth> Mr. Laffont?
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<laurent_> topics here http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3381&can=1&q=status%3Dclosed&sort=-id&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Summary%20Milestone%20Difficulty
<stef_> Hi guys
<stef_> sorry for the deal
<stef_> delay
<lamneth> Bonsoir!
<stef_> bonsoir
<stef_> so the idea is that we have one monthly irc chat
<stef_> next time we may do it in another period during the day so that
<stef_> other people can join.
<stef_> does anybody wants to play the role of the secretary?
<laurent_> what do you mean by secretary ?
<stef_> I could do it but may be this is better if somebody else does it
<stef_> writing a list of bullet points to send to the list once we are done
<laurent_> depends of children for me :)
<geal> aren't irc logs enough? :p
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<stef_> I do not read irc logs :)
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<alienhard> an "executive summary" would be nice
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<alienhard> I can do it..
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<laurent_> thanks Adrian
<lamneth> thx Adrian
<stef_> first I propose to set the next irc meeting date :)
<stef_> january 4th
<alienhard> fine for me
<alienhard> any objections?
<laurent_> ok for me
<alienhard> ok. What time?
<stef_> we could do it early
<stef_> between 12 to 14 paris time
<stef_> if it makes sense :)
<alienhard> from comments in the mailing list I took that it is too early(?)
<stef_> or later :)
<stef_> we can see the hour later
<alienhard> ok
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<laurent_> we will see on the mailing-list
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<stef_> ok guys
<stef_> so I can talk during hours but I would like hear you
<srbaker> oh what? you guys didn't all quit your jobs to make it here on time?
<laurent_> maybe we can start talking about comments and documentation ?
<solar_sea> stef_, I'm using pharo for pet/personal projects only (I'm being payed for java), but still here are a few points:
<lamneth> What do you mean by "Source Code Manager", something like StoRe (VW) ?  Would that mean leaving Monticello and Squeaksource progressively to manage our own stuff with our own tools/repository ?
<lamneth> I mean the public StORE repository of Cincom for VW...
<solar_sea> * brief and short doc on site/hudson/in-image - what is everything. What is opal, what is coral, what is package XYZ, etc. To a newcommer - it would make a big difference :)
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<solar_sea> * separation of core & dev in the issue tracker - yesterday I picked 1809 - and I found that formatting was not available in core at all for example
<laurent_> Opal: new compiler , Coral: shell scripting
<LucF> More here : http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Projects
<solar_sea> so, when it's not in core - where is it, where should I fix it, where should I send the slice ?
<laurent_> to PharoInbox
<laurent_> it doesn't matter whether the package is in PharoCore or Pharo
<laurent_> no ?
<solar_sea> well 1.1.1 is frozen? and is there a 1.2 with dev tools ?
<GuillePolito> I'm building it currenty :D
<stef_> sorry I'm on the phone
<laurent_> 1.1.1 is frozen
<stef_> to find a flat for igor
<estebanlm> 1.1.1 is stable version... 1.2 is current development version
<laurent_> Guillermo, building Pharo 1.2 works ?
<solar_sea> so to my example - 1.1.1 is frozen, code for 1809 is not available in 1.2 core and there is no 1.2 dev - I'm basically unable to implement it :)
<estebanlm> GuillePolito: ping
<estebanlm> last time I checked, there was some issues with 1.2 building, but minor ones
<estebanlm> (like that Shout problem)
<GuillePolito> It seem so, I've made some changes for OB and OC, and committed them in PharoTaskForces in order to
<GuillePolito> I'll send a mail to the mailing list in some minutes
<laurent_> Thanks
<LucF> cool!
<laurent_> solar
<laurent_> I don't understand why you cannot implement it ?
<stef_> ok OPAL is a new compiler
<stef_> it is nice because the old one does not have the notion of scope in the AST and you
<stef_> have to turn around.
<stef_> Marcus showed me how you can implement new analysis in a couple of methods.
<geal> what's the improvement with OPAL? faster compilation or code? Plugging into the compilation?
<solar_sea> laurent_, It's in OB-Refactory-Commands > ORCmdFormat - it's not in core. If I fix it for 1.1.1, can it be merged for 1.2 ?
<stef_> between architecture
<stef_> IR model
<LucF> @solar_sea, you should fix it for 1.2 directly I think
<stef_> with visitors
<stef_> open pluging infrastructure
<geal> nice :)
<stef_> Now we want it to have a better API + fully parametried to support cross compilation
<stef_> and its own bootstrap
<laurent_> @solar_sea can't you load OB-Refactory-Commands in 1.2 ?
<renggli> solar_sea: I fixed issue 1809 with Dale at ESUG in Barcelona, since then it comes with every recent OB, the problem is just that the dev images use an OB from last year
<stef_> @lukas
<stef_> I should do a new image with the name beta but we are in beta.
<solar_sea> laurent_, where're from ? :) That's what I meant with the short description for each project/acronym - what is it, where do one gets it, etc, etc
<stef_> we checked with marcus how we made the last beta for 1.1 and it was just the name of the file :)
<stef_> so next question?
<renggli> @stef: I marked 1809 as fixed
<solar_sea> renggli, I see, i'll pick something else for myself, or I'm open for suggestions :)
<stef_> thanks
<stef_> ?
<renggli> solar_sea: i didn't know that this was for OB, so i didn't look at it
<renggli> it would be cool if the bugs could be tagged according to the top level package, like OB, Collection, RB, Compiler, ...
<GuillePolito> I've just sent an email announcing Dev packages are loading in 1.2...  Maybe that help us to move to beta?
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<stef_> Yes
<stef_> redline
<stef_> with marcus we were thinking to look at another tracker
<stef_> hi damien
<renggli> for me the tracker is perfect
<renggli> just somebody needs to add the project tags
<stef_> ok we could do that
<renggli> we evaluated for seaside all open source trackers
<renggli> unless something changed dramatically
<renggli> then there is nothing better
<stef_> which one we need
<stef_> redline?
<stef_> or redmine?
<laurent_> @solar I would load ConfigurationOfOmniBrowser and fix it from here
<lamneth> stef: Mantis does a pretty good job...  Besides, couldn't we use the same tracker as Squeak?  That way, issues that are "detected" in Squeak would be a glance away ?
<stef_> we will experiment that
<stef_> We used mantis for years and it sucks
<alienhard> please, please not Mantis
<renggli> mantis is the prototype of a horribly unusable tracker
<renggli> that even says one of its authors (julian) :-)
<stef_> ok we are in sync :)
<stef_> ok next question?
<lamneth> :)
<stef_> I think that an important point is how can you participate
<laurent_> Actually at work we have switched to Redmine
<lamneth> what about the source code manager in the topics ?
<stef_> what should we do so that you join and have fun with us
<stef_> ok source manager
<stef_> the vision is the following one
<stef_> we would like to have a kind of DB that can be queried and that contains all the code of all the versions of Squeak and pharo
<stef_> so that we can track all the versions and all the changes
<stef_> Now if you looked at how changes are managed and did not faint
<stef_> you could see that comment and class definition are hacked
<stef_> in fact a methodReference is cretaed and ...
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<stef_> and the scanner is involved to check whether the changes is a class definition....
<stef_> so we would like to have one nice code model
<stef_> that will hold source entities and that we can query the system
<stef_> hi doru
<girba> hi
<renggli> stef_: your database is here https://github.com/theseion/pharogenesis
<lamneth> stef: so that would mean a progressive departure from Monticello and SqueakSource ?!?!
<renggli> now, i don't know how the database interface is coming, have to check the progress
<stef_> not necessary
<stef_> we are talking about .sources files and .changes
<stef_> potentially
<lamneth> ok...  Not packages???
<stef_> we are talking about backend
<stef_> even XML is better than what we have now.
<stef_> :)
<stef_> @lukas what is theseion
<lamneth> I've always thought it would be about time we have a single place where to put/retrieve code, just like the Cincom public repository
<stef_> who is ion ?
<stef_> one palce for pharo core
<srbaker> i have a source code history fetish, i would love to be involved in that. but i can't take the lead on it, because i'm not sure my knowledge is deep enough
<renggli> stef_: the student implementing gitfs (max leske)
<stef_> we do not need one cnetralized system for everybody.
<srbaker> i've been thinking about a pharosource as being nice, since i ran into incompatibility with something or two.
<stef_> max ok :)
<stef_> Just that you know ESUG is paying a small company to rewrite from scratch squeaksource
<stef_> we hope that inria will provide a webdav server we can store packages.
<stef_> squeakers included
<girba> that is great news (regarding the squeaksource rewrite)
<stef_> now inria people told me that they have some security issues to fix before
<stef_> @ doru
<girba> yes?
<stef_> the plan is to first build a small core and ask feedback to the community
<stef_> I asked
<stef_> tags
<stef_> management of list
<LucF> scriptiing interface!
<stef_> scriptable API with rest or whatever
<stef_> pluggable back-end
<LucF> ;-)
<stef_> ;)
<laurent_> and great uptime :)
<stef_> list of packages, users, projects,...... list
<stef_> uptime this is for the webdav
<stef_> :)
<stef_> more of the time.
<girba> is there a way to get the history of this chat?
<girba> given that I arrived late
<solar_sea> I'm logging it and I'll pastern now
[2:58pm] stef_: so next question
[2:59pm] laurent_: about comments
[2:59pm] solar_sea: http://pastebin.com/9KTWbEje
[2:59pm] stef_: yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
[2:59pm] laurent_: I'm not sure rejecting packages is a so great idea
[2:59pm] stef_: so any idea!
[2:59pm] stef_: paint in red air of bad guy?
[3:00pm] stef_:
[3:00pm] laurent_: Indeed I think we should use more HelpSystem
[3:00pm] stef_: Yes
[3:00pm] laurent_: Each ConfigurationOf... should have its help to give an overview of the package
[3:00pm] stef_: I would like to have <public>
[3:01pm] stef_: for tests that should appear in help
[3:01pm] laurent_: It's easy to write Help book
[3:01pm] girba: regarding comments, I would like to give the idea of stef a try
[3:01pm] stef_: now I would like to generate a STDoc of the complete doc
[3:01pm] laurent_: and as a newbie we search for a starting point
[3:01pm] girba: and put pressure on people that build tools
[3:01pm] SeanDeNigris: Ruby's near-total documentation came once ri and rdoc pulled comments directly into docs (per Dave Thomas, RubyConf 2010 keynote).  If method and package comments were first class, how could they be integrated into the tools (Browser, HelpSystem).  And, if we knew they would become part of the docs, how would that change the quality of our comments.
[3:02pm] LucF: idea : with the hudson server, we could launch lint rules that checks help coverage and do not release below XX coverage….
[3:02pm] stef_: exactlt
[3:02pm] stef_: yes
[3:02pm] GuillePolito: Mmm, in my Java and C# experience, class comments are not so useful... I prefer tests and examples
[3:03pm] laurent_: I agree with Guillermo
[3:03pm] stef_: Now we can also get a collection of classes and each month we make sure that the class comments at least says something
[3:03pm] srbaker: SeanDeNigris:  there was also a great web-based tool for editing that saved the comments back in the code. that's how rails documentation improved so drastically for 2.0
[3:03pm] stef_: @ sorry guys I do not want to argue and I do not care
[3:03pm] stef_: first step first
[3:03pm] stef_: to climb a big mountain you do not start to look at the top
[3:03pm] stef_: you focus on your next step
[3:03pm] stef_: one by one
[3:03pm] stef_: I want everything
[3:04pm] srbaker: relishapp.com does a good job for visualizing cucumber scenarios for rails apps
[3:04pm] stef_: now can I
[3:04pm] stef_: what is cucumber scenario
[3:04pm] cDlm: a specification DSL
[3:04pm] cDlm: in ruby
[3:04pm] srbaker: stef_: acceptance testing for ruby.
[3:04pm] stef_: ok
[3:05pm] stef_: Right now
[3:05pm] laurent_: http://cukes.info/
[3:05pm] stef_: we should not be tools and geeky centric
[3:05pm] stef_: let us face it
[3:05pm] srbaker: stef_: something like relishapp.com for the tests and documentation in Pharo might be helpful.
[3:05pm] stef_: this is class has no comment sucks
[3:05pm] stef_: whyshould I read a class when the guy did not even entered one comment telling what the class is about
[3:06pm] stef_: so <public> tests
[3:06pm] girba: It would be interesting to have some effort towards a better documentation support from a language point of view, but I do not think this is a prerequisite
[3:06pm] stef_: one line comment for a package browser
[3:06pm] stef_: doru like what
[3:07pm] girba: I was referring to the DSL for describing whatever meta-information
[3:07pm] girba: It would be great, but it should not be of concern at the moment
[3:07pm] girba: I think
[3:07pm] girba: just a question, is there a consensus about adding comments to a pacakge?
[3:07pm] girba: do we set for the name of a class?
[3:08pm] stef_: for the package I want more than comments
[3:08pm] stef_: but yes
[3:08pm] stef_: this is the nice side effect of RPackage
[3:09pm] stef_: @lukas: in the bugtracker we had already OB OB2 I added Shout
[3:09pm] stef_: what else?
[3:09pm] girba: RPackage can indeed be nice as a starting point, but the problem is that we need to store the information in Monticello somehow
[3:10pm] laurent_: girba: Indeed it seems that with Metacello packages are more and more splitted into several packages
[3:10pm] renggli: well, ideally it should be Package-OB, Package-RB, Package-Shout, Package-eCompletion, ...
[3:10pm] renggli: Type is kind of something else, no?
[3:10pm] laurent_: I mean there's MyPackage-Core MyPackage-X MyPackage-Z
[3:11pm] girba: yes, but that is not a problem
[3:11pm] laurent_: I want overview for MyPackage-* at once
[3:11pm] girba: I am still concerned with how do we store the information
[3:11pm] alienhard: so Doru, you suggest to have a convention for a class name per package, and in this class, the comment would be the comment for the package?
[3:11pm] girba: that is an idea
[3:11pm] renggli: @girba: well, packageInfo was made to exactly do that
[3:11pm] girba: for example, in Java, packages are still not first class but they have the convention of package-info.java
[3:12pm] girba: yes, but my question is what can monticello store right now
[3:12pm] stef_: I did that in DrDoc
[3:12pm] girba: yes, i know, that is why i asked about the convention
[3:12pm] girba:
[3:12pm] stef_: Manifesto
[3:12pm] laurent_: That's why I like HelpSystem
[3:13pm] stef_: we could use helpSystem indeed
[3:13pm] laurent_: I can write an help for a bunch of packages
[3:13pm] girba: HelpSystem is nice, but we still need to identify the class that corresponds to a package
[3:13pm] girba: So, just Manifesto is not enough, because Packages do not have name scope
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[3:14pm] stef_: luc? any
[3:14pm] LucF: yes
[3:14pm] stef_: progress on environments?
[3:14pm] laurent_: In case of HelpSystem, you can have several classes
[3:14pm] renggli: HelpSystem is not useable for me and obviously not for anybody else (otherwise it wouldn't be empty)
[3:15pm] renggli: when is the creation of help topics finally been fixed?
[3:15pm] girba: why do you say it is not usable?
[3:15pm] laurent_: renggli what is the problem ?
[3:15pm] LucF: on environments, we need to define a strategy to migrate tools
[3:15pm] renggli: i do not want to depend on an external class
[3:15pm] stef_: I think that we should do the same as what you did with nicolas
[3:16pm] stef_: have a default that points to Smalltalk globals
[3:16pm] renggli: it should take the same approach as settings
[3:16pm] laurent_: you mean using pragmas ?
[3:16pm] stef_: + have setters to specify the envir
[3:16pm] girba: ah, indeed, that is not good
[3:16pm] renggli: so that i can implement anywhere something like
[3:16pm] renggli: helpOn: aBuilder
[3:16pm] renggli: <help>
[3:17pm] alienhard: no, the dependency is very unfortunate
[3:17pm] stef_: and fix the methods to use the environments
[3:17pm] girba: i agree with lukas 100%
[3:17pm] girba: on this one, at least
[3:17pm] stef_: @adrian which dependency
[3:17pm] LucF: @Stef: but which tools first? OB?
[3:17pm] GuillePolito: +1
[3:17pm] laurent_: ok I agree too
[3:17pm] alienhard: on the CustomHelp class, that you have to subclass
[3:17pm] girba: ok, but the thing is that we need a way to track from a package to a help system
[3:17pm] renggli: if the help system would be easy on its users it would be used
[3:18pm] renggli: i have a lot of blog articles to paste in there
[3:18pm] laurent_: So this mean an HelpSystem based on pragma sounds good ?
[3:18pm] renggli: but obviously nobody botherd to write anything up to now
[3:18pm] renggli: so it needs to change
[3:18pm] girba: actually, I wanted to propose since a long time, but it would be interesting to use the core of pier for the help
[3:18pm] girba: for the content, I mean
[3:18pm] laurent_: I bother to write things
[3:18pm] stef_: lukas you are convincing
[3:19pm] renggli: i do not want to promote pier in this context
[3:19pm] stef_: now don;t you think that another problem is that the help is not right in front of our nose
[3:19pm] renggli: but yeah, the builder/pragma approach would make that easily possible
[3:19pm] stef_: like class comments
[3:19pm] renggli: it not only decouples it from the model
[3:19pm] renggli: but also from the UI
[3:19pm] stef_: for me I see a apckage comments as something I see when I click on the package and automatically
[3:19pm] renggli: and from anything else .. even the builder method can be read
[3:19pm] girba: yes
[3:19pm] stef_: the comment or help or class supporting help show it to me.
[3:20pm] girba: @stef, I agree
[3:20pm] renggli: you just look for <help> pragmas and have a documentation without any tools
[3:20pm] girba: that is why I am saying we need to map the comments from the package point of view
[3:20pm] renggli: (well the browser you need)
[3:20pm] stef_: ok
[3:21pm] stef_: so it would be good to give a try and contact gently torsten
[3:21pm] stef_: to use pragma I do not want people to get mad or think that we are just assholes
[3:21pm] stef_: since this is not the case
[3:21pm] girba: what do you mean?
[3:21pm] renggli: well, this is not the first time i am proposing this
[3:21pm] girba: indeed
[3:21pm] stef_: I know
[3:22pm] stef_: so let us do it :0
[3:22pm] stef_: @luc
[3:23pm] stef_: what is the next tool we want to fix
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[3:23pm] stef_: @luc did you see that there are some red methods for systemNavigation
[3:23pm] girba: the browser
[3:24pm] LucF: Stef: no ...
[3:24pm] LucF: I will check that
[3:24pm] stef_: it was intended to luc
[3:24pm] stef_: we want to have environement parametrixzed tools
[3:24pm] stef_: luc there is also MC
[3:24pm] stef_: I should take the time and redo the experience I did to try to remove all the Smalltlak globals
[3:24pm] LucF: yes it is a big one
[3:25pm] stef_: may be I should cut the effort
[3:25pm] stef_: add default and instance var
[3:25pm] stef_: then use them
[3:25pm] stef_: BTW guys did you see the new recentMessage tools?
[3:25pm] stef_: in 1.2
[3:26pm] girba: no
[3:26pm] girba: where do I see them?
[3:26pm] AlexandreBergel: no, checking now
[3:27pm] LucF: @Stef: how would you remove Smalltalk globals?
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[3:28pm] stef_: Smalltalk globals => environment
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[3:28pm] stef_: + initialize
[3:28pm] girba: so, it should be "self environment" ?
[3:28pm] stef_: environment := Smalltalk globals
[3:28pm] LucF1: ok
[3:29pm] stef_: doru
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[3:29pm] stef_: yes if you want to have a lazzy inti
[3:29pm] stef_: or not
[3:29pm] stef_: but this self environemtn is not the same as self class environment.
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[3:29pm] stef_: the instance side is the one tyhat the tool use to query info
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[3:30pm] stef_: @luc: be the force with you
[3:30pm] stef_: what is happening with your browser
[3:30pm] AlexandreBergel: recent messages is cool
[3:31pm] AlexandreBergel: anyone uses it ?
[3:31pm] AlexandreBergel: it is a font end to the change set isn't it?
[3:31pm] AlexandreBergel: it gives you the list of methods you have modified
[3:31pm] AlexandreBergel: with the different version
[3:32pm] alienhard: had a quick look at the recent changes browser: "by package" hogs the CPU, in all views execpt for "by Class" I see the changed method, but not the class. It seems useful, but not stable yet
[3:32pm] stef_: not recentMessageSet is a crap and this is a set
[3:32pm] stef_: we use a list
[3:32pm] stef_: it hogs cpu because of package info once again
[3:33pm] stef_: you should tell it to benjmain
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[3:33pm] stef_: BTW this is why we need a classDefinition object in the changes
[3:33pm] LucF1: hey, came back...
[3:33pm] AlexandreBergel: Benjamin is working on RPackage?
[3:34pm] stef_: and not a piece of text that you have to query using the scanner to know it is a classdef
[3:34pm] stef_: no cyrille
[3:34pm] LucF1: sorry, I have to push bits by hand in the plug....
[3:34pm] stef_: benjmain is working on haselnuts
[3:34pm] AlexandreBergel: ah ok
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[3:34pm] stef_: So
[3:34pm] stef_: a question for the pharo lurkers
[3:35pm] stef_: or friends
[3:35pm] stef_: and friends
[3:35pm] stef_: and users
[3:35pm] stef_: what should we change so that you get also involved?
[3:36pm] solar_sea: separate issues by apparent difficulty and make a more detailed casts how to contribute
[3:37pm] stef_: did you see the easy tag on the bugtracker
[3:37pm] solar_sea: very few issues from the looks have the difficulty tag selected from what I see in the tracker
[3:37pm] renggli: GuillePolito: I looked at your changes in OB-Morphic. I think this is problematic to let OBTextMorphEditor subclass SmalltalkEditor; the editor is not used only for Smalltalk. What are the implication of this change?
[3:37pm] stef_: contributing = run the tests for example and fix one
[3:38pm] AlexandreBergel: Stef, maybe a simple rewarding system
[3:38pm] solar_sea: (a search box on pharocasts will be nice as well)
[3:38pm] AlexandreBergel: for example having the name of a committer on the pharo webpage for a short period of time
[3:39pm] stef_: candies
[3:39pm] AlexandreBergel: a kind of twitter, but for changes
[3:39pm] stef_: yes but it means maintaining it
[3:39pm] AlexandreBergel: I know
[3:39pm] laurent_: solar ah yes good idea
[3:39pm] stef_: any system that we could hijack for doing that
[3:39pm] AlexandreBergel: you asked a question, I just give my answer
[3:40pm] solar_sea: stef_, now that you say it, an actualized edition of PBE for 1.1.1 or even the latest dev image by renggli will also be a quick start
[3:40pm] srbaker: what about a twitter account specifically for it? and then twitter widget on the web page.
[3:40pm] GuillePolito: renggli: I just added the changeset in here http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3288
[3:40pm] srbaker: showing just the latest tweet
[3:40pm] srbaker: solved. no maintenance necessary (we can automate the tweetage)
[3:40pm] alienhard: one acknowledgement that does not take much time is in the [update] mail for each issue give the name
[3:41pm] stef_: you do not imagine the amount of work it represents to have a book in sync with a moving UI
[3:41pm] GuillePolito: renggli: How should we do it?
[3:41pm] stef_: @steven
[3:41pm] solar_sea: it's huge, that's for sure, but since 1.1.1 is finalized it's not endless
[3:41pm] stef_: why not :
[3:41pm] stef_: why not:)
[3:41pm] stef_: it is easy to set up?
[3:42pm] stef_: @adrian
[3:42pm] stef_: I always try to add a thanks....
[3:42pm] stef_: I never put my name on mine
[3:42pm] alienhard:
[3:42pm] stef_: I'm not yet like alain delon
[3:42pm] alienhard: yes, I think that like this we don't need a twitter feed or something
[3:42pm] AlexandreBergel:
[3:43pm] alienhard: what we can do again is a list of contributors like we did for 1.0
[3:43pm] renggli: GuillePolito: I don't know, I am just asking. Subclassing from SmalltalkEditor seems to be a bit strange, when it is only for class and method definitions used for actual Smalltalk code. In all other cases it should be a normal text editor (before that was handled with callbacks).
[3:43pm] stef_: the twitter think is that you can put it on the web
[3:43pm] srbaker: right, i was only thinking about the web.
[3:43pm] alienhard: on the right side: http://pharo-project.org/pharo-download/release-1-0
[3:44pm] stef_: yes this would be coooool
[3:44pm] stef_: the contritors of this version are ..... .... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
[3:45pm] stef_: so
[3:45pm] alienhard: I created that list from the PharoTreatedInbox with some Linux scripts at that time
[3:45pm] stef_: any other suggestions to get involve
[3:46pm] stef_: cool I was not even aware of the list this is cool
[3:46pm] stef_: Thanks also to the people and companies supporting external projects from which we integrate code: Cog (full block closure support), Cuis (font support), Polymorph (GUI), Squeak (various changes and fixes)
[3:46pm] stef_: this text is good too.
[3:46pm] GuillePolito: renggli: Yes, I've just tried subclassing from TextEditor and it seemed ok (nothing exploded so far) :P. I should learn a little more about thos f*****g editors
[3:46pm] stef_: we are creating good energy
[3:46pm] lamneth: @stef: have more regular "pharo sprints" where we would concentrate on specific app/packages (and fixes of course!)
[3:46pm] solar_sea: yes, and use the irc
[3:47pm] stef_: where are you located?
[3:47pm] solar_sea: sorry if it's rude but this is a first for months since there has been any chat here
[3:47pm] renggli: GuillePolito: I don't know them well enough either. Did you run the OB tests? Do they still pass?
[3:47pm] lamneth: Montréal ici...  Sous 20cm de neige et de poudrerie! incompatible encoding
[3:47pm] solar_sea: otherwise it's just a line or two per week
[3:47pm] stef_: the problem is that when you have a busy day
[3:47pm] stef_: and evening
[3:48pm] stef_: chat for me equire all my attention
[3:48pm] stef_: so I suggest to send emails to the mailing-list saying that the IRC needs blood
[3:48pm] GuillePolito: renggli: 681 run, 677 passes, 0 expected failures, 4 failures, 0 errors, 0 unexpected passe
[3:48pm] stef_: indeed we could use it more often
[3:49pm] sebastian joined the chat room.
[3:49pm] renggli: GuillePolito: strange, this should be more like "1557 run, 1557 passes, 0 expected failures, 0 failures, 0 errors, 0 unexpected passes"
[3:50pm] stef_: so to sum up
[3:50pm] GuillePolito: renggli: I ran OB-Tests-Core, Morphic and Standard
[3:50pm] stef_: I would like that we raise the question of using pragma for help and using the same setting than in setting.
[3:50pm] solar_sea: btw, what happened with the idea of chat in the image ? This would solve the issues with irc/other chats if everyone auto-connected on startup
[3:51pm] stef_:
[3:51pm] stef_: for me chat is counter productive because I do not do something else
[3:51pm] renggli: GuillePolito: still, there is something strange (793 run, 793 passes, 0 expected failures, 0 failures, 0 errors, 0 unexpected passes)
[3:52pm] laurent_: @solar search box added
[3:52pm] solar_sea: laurent_, thanks a lot
[3:52pm] solar_sea: results are ok, but they're not clickable
[3:53pm] laurent_: which browser ?
[3:53pm] solar_sea: chrome unstable latest (whatever google or debian sid provided me)
[3:53pm] lamneth: @stef: Don't you think Pharo would somehow, sometime, depart from Squeak?  I'd love to see a PharoSource with tons of packages ported from Squeak...
[3:54pm] solar_sea: 9.0.597.0 dev
[3:54pm] lamneth: @stef : new users look at Pharo, get some code from squeaksource and it blows in their face...  We should have our own stuff, our own repository, our own everything
[3:54pm] GuillePolito: renggli: Ok, it was me :P.  793 run, 789 passes, 0 expected failures, 4 failures, 0 errors, 0 unexpected passes
[3:55pm] laurent_: 8.0.... here
[3:55pm] stef_: it is departing from squek
[3:55pm] stef_: now we do not do it on purpose
[3:55pm] stef_: easy compatibility is good
[3:55pm] stef_: now I eargly waiting for metacello distribution
[3:55pm] lamneth: @stef : good but not necessary!  Cincom doesn't care less about their public repository being "smalltalk code incompatible with everything else"
[3:56pm] stef_: I would like have a package forge with clearly nice packages
[3:56pm] alienhard: yes, a package management system with Metacello that specifies dependencies would solve that problem
[3:56pm] stef_: of code running in pharo
[3:57pm] stef_: I think that we should simply continue to build what we believe is good
[3:57pm] stef_: help people to participate
[3:57pm] lamneth: @stef: it's just that for new users, it's hard to understand and confusing...  Was this code for Pharo?  Squeak? Cog VM specific? etc...  If we had all our stuff in one place, there wouldn't be any confusion
[3:57pm] GuillePolito: renggli: And it seems to be related to the editors, since the 4 tests are testBrowseIt, testImplementorsOfIt, testReferencesToIt, testSendersOfIt
[3:57pm] stef_: we hired igor for 2 years and it will help the community
[3:57pm] solar_sea: laurent_, is there a cast about testing in general. Not the autotest one but a more general about testing and the tools for it ?
[3:58pm] stef_: we are trying with the one click
[3:58pm] stef_: nothing is easy
[3:58pm] stef_: if we pull to fr from squeak then we cannot use their nice fixes
[3:58pm] laurent_: solar works on chrome 8 firefox 4 epiphany 2.30.2 safari 5.0.3  can I say this is a chrome 9 issue ?
[3:59pm] stef_: I have to go to sleep
[3:59pm] stef_: because early lecture tomorrow
[3:59pm] lamneth: @stef: it's just as if Instantiations would promote Cincom Public repository and then users wouldn't understand why the VW code doesn't work in VAST...  Then you spend time telling he newcomers well, it's not that way in Pharo, that method doesn't exist in Pharo, this class has been replaced with this other one in Pharo, etc.
[4:00pm] hernan: I think if you pull away from squeak then you will not need their fixes
[4:00pm] stef_: it would be nice to see the end of the discussion
[4:00pm] lamneth: @stef: I feel squeaksource is part of our problem
[4:00pm] lamneth: @stef: it would be nice to chat longer...
[4:00pm] stef_: first metacello
[4:00pm] solar_sea: laurent_, the first line is click-able as a matter of fact, it works fine for me:)
[4:00pm] stef_: metacello distribution with working package
[4:00pm] lamneth: hi hernan...  Benoit St-Jean here...
[4:00pm] GuillePolito left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[4:01pm] laurent_: there's http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html and http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/08/web-application-testing-through.html but should be more
[4:01pm] hernan: hi Benoit
[4:01pm] stef_: second a new sqeuaksource where we can clean sort projects
[4:01pm] stef_: third voice also in the pharo mailing list what you think should be done.
[4:01pm] lamneth: @stef: +1 for a new Squeaksource...  that is not down everytime I need to access it...
[4:02pm] stef_: fourth we were the etoy haters, then squeak haters....
[4:02pm] lamneth: @stef: be positive!  We're for results!
[4:02pm] stef_: so we do not want to be bad guys because we are not
[4:02pm] stef_: exactly
[4:02pm] stef_: so you will see that part of the solutions are coming
[4:05pm] lamneth: @stef : I think the Pharo community has reached a "viable" critical mass...  We're capable or living and surviving on our own...  If you just look at the explosion of Pharo followers in South America, we can only dream of even better days ahead!
[4:06pm] stef_: the question is always the ratio producers and customers
[4:06pm] stef_: and stable jobs
[4:06pm] stef_: so we will see
[4:06pm] alienhard: so, are we through?
[4:06pm] stef_: we have a long list of items for the next 6 months
[4:06pm] stef_: Yes for me.
[4:06pm] sebastian left the chat room. (Quit: zzzzzzz........)
[4:07pm] laurent_: someone has tried the UIBuilders ?
[4:07pm] stef_: me
[4:07pm] stef_: UI
[4:07pm] laurent_: is it "usagle"
[4:07pm] laurent_: usable
[4:07pm] laurent_: oups
[4:08pm] stef_: the problem is the way UI store the resulting UI
[4:09pm] stef_: so I'm falling apart
[4:10pm] alienhard: good night
[4:10pm] lamneth: Bonne nuit!
[4:10pm] alienhard: does somebody know the URL for a log of this chat?
[4:10pm] laurent_: good night
[4:10pm] girba: http://pastebin.com/9KTWbEje
[4:10pm] girba: good night
[4:12pm] alienhard: only half is on pastebin
[4:13pm] girba: oops
[4:14pm] girba: then I do not know
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[4:15pm] alienhard: cu
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[4:51pm] MarianoPeck: ups...
[4:51pm] MarianoPeck: I remember late about the IRC chat