Session Start: Wed Dec 28 15:31:22 2011
Session Ident: #terrariatalk
03[15:31] * Now talking in #terrariatalk
03[15:31] * silver.irondust.net sets mode: +nt
03[15:31] * Tiy (Tiy@5h6u5v6x.bb.sky.com) has joined #terrariatalk
[15:31] <Tiy> o_O
[15:31] <Tiy> why do we need an irc channel for just the two of us
01[15:31] <@Scizor300> not the two of us
[15:31] <Tiy> im not around much longer
03[15:32] * kathy (Mibbit@kathy/kathy) has joined #terrariatalk
01[15:32] <@Scizor300> one of my friends was banned for voicing his opinions in #terraria, so
01[15:32] <@Scizor300> i'd figure it would be a bit easier to do it in here
[15:32] <kathy> scizor300
[15:32] <kathy> what
[15:32] <kathy> oh shit gotta go
[15:32] <kathy> brb
03[15:33] * ZarroTsu (Mibbit@oas5280a5333981-yr9097i890278w.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #terrariatalk
01[15:33] <@Scizor300> thanks for taking the time to at least listen, tiy
01[15:33] <@Scizor300> here's zarro
[15:33] <kathy> hi
[15:33] <Tiy> ok but I realllly dont have much time
[15:33] <Tiy> so this will have to be quick :P
[15:33] <Tiy> its late here
[15:33] <ZarroTsu> Alright so I'm assuming Tiy at least read over the topic Sciz mentioned?
01[15:33] <@Scizor300> yeah, i linked him to it when i first posted it
[15:33] <Tiy> sure I had a look
[15:33] <ZarroTsu> I'd like to know his/her opinion on the matter
[15:33] <Tiy> link me again real quick
01[15:34] <@Scizor300> alright
[15:34] <ZarroTsu> http://www.terrariaonline.com/threads/scizor300-and-zarrotsus-suggestions.72864/
[15:34] <ZarroTsu> I also have another post at #3, then some dork sort of derailed the topic with spazztic fandefenses
[15:35] <Tiy> ah right, yup I remember reading this
[15:35] <ZarroTsu> My general problem, in summary, is I feel that the numbers in hardmode are too high
[15:35] <ZarroTsu> While yes, of course easymode will eventually reach a point where everything from there is rendered superfluous
[15:36] <ZarroTsu> "Immediately after" is hardly an ideal location for this to take place
[15:36] <Tiy> Why do you think the numbers are too high
[15:36] <Tiy> do you think the game is too difficult?
[15:36] <Tiy> or?
[15:36] <ZarroTsu> I feel that the difficulty is false
[15:36] <ZarroTsu> the difficulty is not that inwhich we are actually given a hard time
[15:37] <ZarroTsu> instead we are given the situation where enemies simply take a massive number of hits to kill
[15:37] <ZarroTsu> rather than making the game difficult, it makes it tedius
[15:37] <Tiy> I see
[15:38] <ZarroTsu> assuming you're spelunking for cobalt ore for the first time, and enemy like the armored skeleton takes far too many hits to kill, even with night's edge (Which is probably the only easymode item to find some use in hardmode, until you produce a phasesaber)
[15:38] <ZarroTsu> an enemy*
[15:38] <ZarroTsu> I'm not saying everything should die in one hit with the best available weapons
[15:39] <ZarroTsu> but they shouldn't take forever to kill with the less-than-best
[15:39] <Tiy> it sounds to me like what you're looking for is enemies and NPCs that require more skillful play to defeat and not more time
[15:39] <ZarroTsu> exactly
[15:39] <Tiy> i.e. NPCs that behave more intelligently or require the player to behave more intelligently to defeat them
[15:39] <ZarroTsu> however, even in the case of the revamps of older AI
[15:40] <ZarroTsu> they don't need to have a massive amount of HP
[15:40] <Tiy> the only issue with that is, many of the players who enjoy Terraria are casual players. Whilst I can understand your desire (i grew up on games like megaman, etc) to a lot of players, this is the kind of 'difficulty' they prefer
[15:40] <Tiy> the skill requirements hit a ceiling, so that the game doesnt grow beyond a casual players ability
01[15:41] <@Scizor300> that's kind of the problem
01[15:41] <@Scizor300> you should at least have some sort of availability to non-casuals
[15:41] <ZarroTsu> it's not even that
[15:42] <ZarroTsu> many of the people who enjoy hardmode as-is are such to the point that they're acting like hardcore players, and flaunting it outright like children. And no offense to any of the fans who don't.
[15:42] <ZarroTsu> The thing with the high numbers is that, you aren't fighting these enemies one-on-one
[15:42] <ZarroTsu> you're liable to fight 10 at a time
[15:42] <Tiy> sure, but the point is that with the way the game is currently set out. Any player, regardless of their skill level, can progress with time
[15:43] <ZarroTsu> and that's not a problem
[15:43] <Tiy> if the game simply gets harder in terms of skill requirement, that cuts a lot of people off
[15:43] <ZarroTsu> but the thing is
[15:43] <ZarroTsu> and I mean no broken offense by it
[15:44] <ZarroTsu> if you were to strip out the high numbers, would there _actually_ be something time consuming there?
[15:44] <Tiy> that depends on your definition of time consuming
[15:44] <Tiy> the game is priced well for casual play, and for casual players, 100s of hours is a great deal of time
[15:44] <ZarroTsu> assuming your statement to allow players to progress 'with time'
[15:45] <ZarroTsu> if enemies didn't have as pointlessly high HP as they do at the moment, how many hours would be shaved off of gameplay time?
[15:45] <ZarroTsu> And if the answer there is "Most of it", something is wrong
[15:45] <Tiy> the answer isn't most of it
[15:46] <ZarroTsu> then has it been considered at all yet?
[15:46] <Tiy> What hasn't?
[15:46] <ZarroTsu> lowered numbers
[15:47] <Tiy> The idea behind the numbers is to stop the player from mowing through the higher level mobs once they gain good hard mode equipment
[15:47] <Tiy> if those numbers are lowered, all of the enemies will become fodder once you've leveled up your shit
[15:47] <Tiy> and the world doesnt feel challenging at all
[15:47] <ZarroTsu> And... isn't that the point?
[15:47] <Tiy> No
[15:48] <Tiy> there shouldnt be a point at which nothing in the world is a threat
[15:48] <Tiy> that's dull
[15:48] <ZarroTsu> Okay let me put this another way
[15:48] <ZarroTsu> assuming there is more after hardmode, with tougher enemies and new challenges
[15:49] <ZarroTsu> will hardmode as-is be toned down numerically, since it is no longer the end-game?
[15:49] <ZarroTsu> because I understand where you're coming from
[15:49] <Tiy> it wouldnt need to be, if the game continues to progress, the players will get stronger and the hard mode enemies wont be a threat anymore
[15:50] <ZarroTsu> but
[15:50] <ZarroTsu> they'll still be a threat to new players
[15:50] <ZarroTsu> it's great to try to cater to the end-game
[15:50] <Tiy> they should be a threat to new players
[15:50] <ZarroTsu> but nobody truly PLAYS the game anymore once they reach that point
[15:50] <Tiy> which point?
[15:50] <ZarroTsu> hallow gear
[15:51] <Tiy> it's a game
[15:51] <ZarroTsu> and I'm not saying that the enemies shouldn't be threatening to new people
[15:51] <Tiy> it's not supposed to last forever
[15:51] <ZarroTsu> but
[15:51] <ZarroTsu> you don't stand ANY chance in killing them once you start hardmode
[15:51] <Tiy> at least not in its current form
[15:51] <ZarroTsu> My first time in hardmode I was swarmed by upwards to 3 giant bats, a couple of armored skeles, and a few archers
[15:51] <ZarroTsu> and my /molten armor/ could not stand up to them
[15:52] <ZarroTsu> my /nights edge/ was meaningless against them
[15:52] <Tiy> perhaps youd grown used to enemies not being a threat
[15:52] <Tiy> "hard mode" is certainly playable, defeatable, if challenging
[15:52] <ZarroTsu> I'm not saying that either, and I know it's beatable, I've done so
[15:52] <ZarroTsu> but
[15:52] <Tiy> a testament to that is the number of players that have enjoyed it and 'completed' it
[15:52] <ZarroTsu> there's a gap
[15:53] <ZarroTsu> There's a massive hole where difficulty should curve
[15:53] <ZarroTsu> instead of a curve there is a wall there
[15:53] <Tiy> the difficulty jumps
[15:53] <Tiy> but the entire world changes
[15:53] <Tiy> first it would be difficult to change the entire world and maintain a curve, given that the player has access to the entire world by that point and the ore distribution is random
[15:53] <Tiy> second, players wanted a challenge, they wanted to feel out matched
[15:53] <Tiy> and this is for those players
[15:54] <ZarroTsu> but what do you do next?
[15:54] <Tiy> there are a million ways we could take the game
01[15:54] <@Scizor300> well, you can make them feel outmatched without just giving everything a massive boost in health and ATP
[15:54] <ZarroTsu> Do you continue to challenge the very, very few players who "want a challenge", and then leave every other player to suck it up and fail?
[15:54] <Tiy> Scizor300, then we're back to raising the skill requirement
[15:55] <Tiy> ZarroTsu, I don't think you're in a position to know how many players want a challenge
01[15:55] <@Scizor300> it would be better for them to learn how to defeat new enemies with new challenges presented
[15:55] <Tiy> I receive hundreds and hundreds of emails
[15:55] <Tiy> from people telling me what they want
[15:55] <Tiy> I also have sales data, forums, tweets, blablabla
[15:55] <Tiy> I have a relatively good idea
[15:56] <ZarroTsu> is hundreds a general or litteral term
[15:56] <Tiy> literal
[15:56] <Tiy> its closer to thousands
[15:56] <ZarroTsu> compared to hundreds of thousands of players...
[15:56] <ZarroTsu> that's a rather loose minority, honestly
[15:56] <Tiy> ZarroTsu, who continue to buy and support us
[15:56] <ZarroTsu> not to put words in your mouth
[15:57] <Tiy> no game is all things to all people
[15:57] <ZarroTsu> how about this, as an idea to throw out there, while miniscule and stupid and likely dropped because 'too many options' or something
[15:58] <ZarroTsu> some specific setting that dictates, not difficulty, but how generally 'tough' enemies are numerically
[15:58] <ZarroTsu> whether this is set to cope with players who want higher enemy stats for their determined fabricated 'challenge'
[15:58] <Tiy> A lot of players would complain about that I think, I think players who achieve things on a higher level would feel cheated by those who turn down the numbers and achieve the same
[15:58] <Tiy> players like to feel like the items and armor they've got have been earned
[15:58] <Tiy> and have value based on the difficulty of earning them
[15:59] <ZarroTsu> Alright then
[15:59] <Tiy> the challenge isn't fabricated
[15:59] <ZarroTsu> what of my heaven/hell scenario
[15:59] <Tiy> it's just not the challenge you want
[15:59] <Tiy> if an enemy requires you survive longer, you'll have to play well for a longer period of time
[15:59] <ZarroTsu> "What if everything in the game, including you, died in only one hit"
[15:59] <Tiy> that in itself is a challenge
[15:59] <Tiy> that would be an interesting idea
[16:00] <Tiy> i wouldnt apply it to the game though
[16:00] <Tiy> perhaps a challenge or biome, where each monster does 9999 damage and has 1 health
[16:00] <ZarroTsu> and why not
[16:00] <ZarroTsu> well
[16:00] <Tiy> because it's too much of a departure from what the game is meant to be
[16:00] <ZarroTsu> assume it encompasses the whole game
[16:00] <Tiy> I'm sorry I need to go, I had very little time to do this as I said
[16:00] <ZarroTsu> alright
[16:01] <Tiy> Zarro, we listen to what people want, and if you can get people to support your ideas we'll take them into account
[16:01] <ZarroTsu> the problem is
[16:01] <ZarroTsu> and no strict insults intended
[16:01] <ZarroTsu> a majority of users are pedestrians who refuse change
[16:01] <Tiy> those users deserve a product they enjoy too
[16:01] <ZarroTsu> so does the other 50,000
[16:02] <Tiy> if everyone was as unhappy with the game as you suggest
[16:02] <Tiy> we wouldnt have the sales figures we have
[16:02] <Tiy> or the support we have
[16:02] <Tiy> anyway
[16:02] <Tiy> I really have to run
[16:02] <ZarroTsu> it's a very tricky situation
[16:02] <ZarroTsu> I can't deny that
[16:02] <Tiy> we have other ideas, I'm working on other games, other bits and pieces that might fulfil your desires
[16:02] <ZarroTsu> lemme ask one more thing
[16:02] <Tiy> but games are made with an audience in mind, and that's often difficult to get around
[16:02] <Tiy> ok
[16:02] <Tiy> quick
[16:02] <Tiy> i really have to run!
[16:02] <Tiy> im in trouble
[16:02] <ZarroTsu> will armor eventually return to a similar fashion as shadow/meteor/molten/jungle?
[16:02] <ZarroTsu> or ar ethey going to continue in the linear fashion
[16:03] <Tiy> it's unplanned and entirely open to suggestion at the moment
[16:03] <ZarroTsu> sorry for keeping you
[16:03] <Tiy> I appreciate your passion for the game
[16:03] <Tiy> and I appreciate your passion for a game that challenges you in the way you want to be challenges. Honestly if I were making the game purely for myself, it might be closer to what youre describing, but theres a lot to be said for making a product that the majority can enjo`y
[16:04] <Tiy> that doesnt mean that your desires will be ignored, so you should continue to post them and try to gather support
[16:04] <ZarroTsu> and again, it's very tricky
[16:04] <Tiy> and ill continue to listen
[16:04] <ZarroTsu> however I feel the game might do well developing in width rather than depth


[16:04] <Tiy> i'll be announcing some stuff soon that might catch your interest

TOTALLY CAUGHT MY INTEREST

[16:04] <Tiy> anyways, im sorry i REALLY have to run
[16:04] <ZarroTsu> more to do at the same difficulty, rather than pushing forward indefinitely
[16:04] <ZarroTsu> alright
[16:04] <Tiy> im about to be slapped by my wife
[16:05] <Tiy> have a good evening!
01[16:05] <@Scizor300> See you later Tiy
02[16:05] * Tiy (Tiy@5h6u5v6x.bb.sky.com) Quit
[16:05] <ZarroTsu> that went nowhere fast
01[16:05] <@Scizor300> welp
01[16:06] <@Scizor300> that's what happens when you prefer your dumbshit community's opinions to opinions of people who know what makes a good game
[16:06] <ZarroTsu> better speaking it with a dev than with a bunch of retards circle jerking on the forum
[16:06] <ZarroTsu> at least
[16:06] <ZarroTsu> I see what they're going for, but
[16:07] <ZarroTsu> the problem is ultimately in nothing to do at one time
01[16:07] <@Scizor300> better speaking with tiy*
[16:07] <ZarroTsu> there's no transitioning point
01[16:07] <@Scizor300> redigit's a fucking retard
[16:07] <ZarroTsu> I mean easymode you have a ton to do
[16:07] <ZarroTsu> and I suppose it overwhelms the community's tiny little brains
[16:07] <ZarroTsu> but
[16:07] <ZarroTsu> more to do means more fun to have
[16:07] <ZarroTsu> more to do is what would ACTUALLY lengthen the game
[16:07] <ZarroTsu> rather than jacking the numbers up
01[16:09] <@Scizor300> anyways, this channel's served its purpose
Session Close: Wed Dec 28 16:09:01 2011