The talk between len'en fans

Despatche - Dziś o 02:10
saw you talking about me
let me get a few things out of the way
1. i am not a "fan of" jaimers and we are both much bigger fans of this series than most of the "len'en community". i was there way before most of you guys. i want this to be clear.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:11
 i was there way before most of you guys.
 saw this
Despatche - Dziś o 02:11
2. please explain your youtube comment in stunning detail. everything about it suggested a complete lack of understanding about bpohc, about len'en, and about this genre.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:11
i think i've seen enough
ehh seriously i don't have time for this
Despatche - Dziś o 02:12
if you really don't have time for this, then please don't talk shit about me
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:12
I don't pal :smiley:
You are taking stuff way too emotionally
Despatche - Dziś o 02:12
i read that conversation just now. you guys act like children sometimes.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:12
Well, same can be said about you xD
Despatche - Dziś o 02:13
not really, sorry
there's a lot more to being a child than getting angry
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:13
You only say we act like children, not saying why or how
Despatche - Dziś o 02:13
do you really want me to go into detail? no, because you just said you didn't want to hear it
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:13
Alright than, i will stop before you get angry
Because:
there's a lot more to being a child than getting angry
Despatche - Dziś o 02:13
talking shit about people and then expecting them to just accept it is a very childish thing to do.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:13
and I don't want to see that 'lot more'
Despatche - Dziś o 02:14
i was talking about you when i said that.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:14
talking shit about people and then expecting them to just accept it is a very childish thing to do.
how am I talking shit
When I was talking shit
seriously
Sorry, I am in a middle scrimming, leave me a message and I will read it later
If you want to rage, please switch channel
Or you can always mute me
Having an opinion isn't talking shit
Telling me I know nothing about a game I love, is
So, cya later
Despatche - Dziś o 02:16
but this isn't about opinions. multiple people are acting like jaimers doesn't know what he's talking about and that his summary of bpohc is straight up wrong
we are not talking about opinions here.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:17
 are acting like jaimers doesn't know what he's talking about and that his summary of bpohc is straight up wrong
 already explained it in th chat
I don't think he does
it's just the tone of the description
it's awful really
Despatche - Dziś o 02:17
"the tone" lol
what does the tone have to do with his knowledge of the game
look, you don't want to actually talk to me about this, what am i supposed to do?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:20
I said I do
post your feelings
just no shouting pls
Despatche - Dziś o 02:20
right, so i ask again: please explain your youtube comments to me.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:22
currently playing competitive eSports game, I'll explain in a bit
Alright from the beginning
I said the game is customizable and you can play it the way you want and I still stand by this
Despatche - Dziś o 02:28
that is completely incorrect because you have to go through the process of grinding every single upgrade and skill out
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:28
You start the game with 0 sake and 0 level
Despatche - Dziś o 02:28
trading savefiles is missing the point
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:28
Not true at all
Hibaru's upgrade makes it really easy to begin with
Despatche - Dziś o 02:29
how is that not true? you literally grind every upgrade and skill out(edytowane)
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:29
"Grind"
I like your concept of this word
I wonder if you even know what it means
Despatche - Dziś o 02:29
...because it's rpg grinding
jynx calls this an "rpg shooting game"
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:29
If you level up in an rpg any kind of ability, is that grinding?
No, grinding is only
And I repeat only
Despatche - Dziś o 02:30
...yes? that's the definition of grinding
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:30
If you do the same boring thing over and over
Just for the sake of it
Examples are such rpgs
Despatche - Dziś o 02:30
constantly doing something over and over again to eventually get a result
like that's the entire upgrade system
hibaru's upgrade and skill makes it a little easier but it's not that huge of an increase
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:31
Again, JynX freaking implemeneted ways to deal with it to avoid any kind of grind, just progress and buy about few levels of upgrades + 2 skills per run and I think it's fair
Despatche - Dziś o 02:31
nor is the instant death option
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:31
How so?
You never explained why it's a grind to begin with
Biggest issues of the no level run is getting power up items and keeping the power (sukune and hooaka upgrades)
You can get both of those in a single run
Despatche - Dziś o 02:32
have you seen the prices in there? on instant death mode especially, you have to do really well if you want a reasonable amount of alcohol in a run
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:32
You never ever explained why it's a grind nor why it's a mandatory one
Are you playing some crazy unreleased version?
Yes I've seen prices
Despatche - Dziś o 02:32
because you can't just play at lv0000 all the time
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:32
And again, you start off slowly and it just keeps ramping up
Like level progressing in rpg
Not grinding
Despatche - Dziś o 02:33
and that's grinding!
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:33
Real question here: have you actually ever played an rpg?
Despatche - Dziś o 02:33
you're playing the game over and over and over again so you can play the next game slightly easier
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:33
No
You don'
Jesus
Have you not realized it yet
Despatche - Dziś o 02:33
then how are you getting alcohol if you're not playing the game over and over again?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:33
This game on start
Has 2 main paths (haze castle/pagoda) with several random events and also more varied and randomized bossess on neutral path
Chances of repeating exactly same thing are none unless you do in on purpose
And no, you can finish off a run without a game over
And get all the alcochol from it
About 15 000 0000 on run ON EASY
With Hibaru upgrades
not maxed out and without instant death
Let me get this straight
Despatche - Dziś o 02:35
what does any of this have to do with grinding? a complete run *with hibaru's upgrade and ability and instant death mode doesn't give you much alcohol, and it takes about half an hour
like do you really not see that you're playing the game over and over again?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:35
Do you have any numbers?
Like anything to support your theory?
Because see, here lies the problem
I present the arguments
You deny them
I ask for proof
You deny it too
Resulting in two nerds arguing on the internet without a point
And I won't prove you wrong because 'you think you can't be wrong '
Despatche - Dziś o 02:37
you don't have any arguments! nothing you're saying is making sense! your entire argument is that the definition of "grinding" is wrong. you're asking me for "proof" of things like... how long the game is? i don't know what you're asking me
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:37
This is basic discussion
Despatche - Dziś o 02:37
now you're accusing me of something crazy.
what are you trying to say?!
how am i supposed to "prove" how grinding works? you are literally playing the game over and over again to get alcohol and buy upgrades. what is there to "prove"? that is the entire system of bpohc! that is the whole point!
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:38
And I thought this community was little more mature
Despatche - Dziś o 02:38
i truly do not understand what you're trying to tell me, and this is what i was talking about on youtube.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:38
No you don't even seem to understand what grinding is
Or why is it bad
Despatche - Dziś o 02:38
now you're trying to tell me i'm "immature" because...?
why?????
you're not making sense!
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:39
Are you seriously trying to troll me right now?
Despatche - Dziś o 02:39
no! what the fuck, dude?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:39
Because that's the only thing you would do good in this argument
Despatche - Dziś o 02:39
how can you call me immature when you've been accusing me of everything this whole time?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:39
I'm not ACCUSING you of anything
I've only asked for specifics
And every time
Despatche - Dziś o 02:39
you literally just asked me if i was trolling.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:39
and that's grinding!
Despatche - Dziś o 02:40
and like a minute ago you told me i was immature.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:40
you don't have any arguments! nothing you're saying is making sense! your entire argument is that the definition of "grinding" is wrong. you're asking me for "proof" of things like... how long the game is? i don't know what you're asking me
Because you are asking immature
Because you are acting like a standard social justice on the internet would act like(edytowane)
Look kiddo
Despatche - Dziś o 02:40
what does social justice have to do with anything?(edytowane)
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:40
omg
Despatche - Dziś o 02:40
what is this conversation right now
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:41
i would like to know as well
I'm trying to explain something to you and than you just continue on without taking anything I said into consideration
Despatche - Dziś o 02:42
you have accused me of everything in the book, you've denied that you've accused me of anything right after you say it, you keep talking about completely unrelated things, and your original point still makes no sense
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:42
You keep getting terms wrong and whien i try to explain anything to you are just changing the subject
Despatche - Dziś o 02:42
what the fuck dude
i'm not the one going on about immaturity
i'm not the one going on about social justice
i'm not the one changing the subject here
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:43
You are lol
Despatche - Dziś o 02:43
look, if you can't understand the very basic definition of grinding, there is no way this conversation is going anywhere.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:43
EXACTLY
If you don't get standard definition of grinding kid
Despatche - Dziś o 02:43
what bpohc is IS grinding. you are playing the game over and over again to get alcohol. that is grinding.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:43
Don't talk to me about BPoHC or rpgs
or anyone else
Despatche - Dziś o 02:43
i don't know why you think it isn't
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:44
Because you will only embarass yourself
just like you did right now
Unless you are really trolling
Despatche - Dziś o 02:44
you still won't talk to me about the actual problem!
now you're going on about people embarassing themselves or whatever
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:44
I did, but you keep saying what i'm saying is wrong without presenting any reasonable argument or proof
Despatche - Dziś o 02:45
i did! you completely ignored it and then told me i was ignoring everything you were saying.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:45
`now you're going on about people embarassing themselves or whatever

can you even understand basic english . ..
Despatche - Dziś o 02:45
yes! do you even read what i'm saying here?
playing bpohc over and over again to get alcohol to buy upgrades is the definition of grinding. i don't know how you can argue it isn't.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:46
but you are the only one who does it
`Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks.[1][2] The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, World of Warcraft, or Lineage [3] in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, often feature grinding as well. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.

Synonyms for grinding include the figurative terms treadmilling[4] (a comparison with exercise treadmills) and pushing the bar (it can be a reference to a weightlifter "pushing the bar" on a bench press, over and over to get muscle gains, or a reference to Skinner boxes in which animals, having learned that pushing a button will sometimes produce a treat, will devote time to pushing the bar over and over again[citation needed], or also can be a graphical reference to push the character's experience bar to higher values)[citation needed]. Related terms include farming (in which the repetition is undertaken in order to obtain items, relating the activity to tending a farm field), and catassing, which refers to extended or obsessive play sessions. Used as a noun, a grind (or treadmill) is a designed in-game aspect which requires the player to engage in grinding.
Despatche - Dziś o 02:46
what could you possibly mean by that? have you completely forgotten that until savefiles started getting passed around, everyone was grinding for alcohol?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:46
The game never requires you to do that
til savefiles started getting passed around, everyone was grinding for alcohol?
 Why are you even bringing savefiles to this?
Despatche - Dziś o 02:47
yes it does! you literally cannot play the game at lv0000. if you could, this wouldn't be a problem.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:47
I never once used someone's save file
yes it does! you literally cannot play the game at lv0000. if you could, this wouldn't be a problem.

but.... you can, people demonstrated this several times
And if you fail, you can save up sake
And buy upgrades that will make it easier for you
If you win, you still don't need to grind
Despatche - Dziś o 02:48
where? where can you play the game outside of easy and maybe extra?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:48
EVERYWHERE
Game difficulties
Are made for you
Despatche - Dziś o 02:48
you're never ever ever ever going to able to play hard, unreal, or abex at lv0000.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:49
But I've seen people do that . . .
not abex of course
Despatche - Dziś o 02:49
where the fuck have you seen people lv0000 unreal or abex
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:49
`not abex of course
 no you really don't understand english
Are you a bot by any chance?
Despatche - Dziś o 02:49
i said unreal OR
and i was typing that before you weaseled your way out of abex
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:50
Now that's very nice of you
Despatche - Dziś o 02:50
also, not being able to lv0000 abex is by itself a huge problem
but that aside, you can't lv0000 unreal
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:50
wait what
Despatche - Dziś o 02:50
if you can, i want proof. actual proof, not your strange definition of proof(edytowane)
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:50
I understand you can't get a joke or something, but seriously?
Despatche - Dziś o 02:51
where is this joke?
what in the actual fuck are you talking about
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:51
AbEx was created as a joke by JynX, just so people with max. stuff had more things to do after the game is over/ they max out things.
You know, like an final frontier sort of deal
He even said so in the interview
Alright, here it goes.
Despatche - Dziś o 02:52
oh my fucking god
abex is a harder extra.
it's supposed to be possible.
ems and rmi already have problems because it's only possible if you bombspam.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:53
I'll just type the whole message in the notes thak you
Because I don't want a kid to interrupt me while I'm explaining something
Despatche - Dziś o 02:53
bpohc is even worse. not only do you have to bombspam, but you also have to buy upgrades just to survive any of it.
your message is incredibly unhelpful because you have no idea what he meant by that.
and if abex was put in as a joke, then that's an example of bad design and that's exactly what i've been talking about this whole time.
ee's abex is not a joke and is completely doable
why should the other games have these impossible abexs?
when you make an impossible challenge, you're a bad designer. this is never questioned for any other game. hard but fair is how designing difficult games works.
the unreals are usually fine. the lunatics and the unreals have always been called "difficulties for crazy people"... but they're possible if you get good enough at the game.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:57
you done?
Despatche - Dziś o 02:57
i know you didn't read a word of that, you haven't been reading anything i've said
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:57
Seriously, if you want to shout some more, I am still listening
Despatche - Dziś o 02:58
where am i shouting?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:58
Oh sorry let me rephrase that
Is there something else you want to tell me now?
Despatche - Dziś o 02:59
are you actually reading any of it?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:59
Yes.
Despatche - Dziś o 02:59
what even was your original point anymore?
Popcioslav - Dziś o 02:59
I want to give you your time to talk(edytowane)
So you won't interrupt me later.
Because that sort of exchange will lead us nowhere
Popcioslav - Dziś o 03:00
Now, you first.
Despatche - Dziś o 03:00
i legitimately do not think you're interested in a discussion.
you're asking me to say my piece so you can ignore it and dump yours.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 03:00
No, I never said I will ignore it.
I just want to go into detail with every single thing one by one
And you can react to it later
Now, go on.
Don't make assumptions and just tell me the hell you wanted me to tell.
Despatche - Dziś o 03:02
explain to me in detail what issues you see with jaimers's summary of bpohc.
Popcioslav - Dziś o 04:35
Look, you're the most difficult person I've ever seen on the Internet and that's saying a lot considering there are people like me on it. Since talking to you won't do either of us any good, I will just get straight to the point and answer your original question:

2. please explain your youtube comment in stunning detail. everything about it suggested a complete lack of understanding about bpohc, about len'en, and about this genre.
Alright, if you say so, I'll be happy to explain :stuck_out_tongue: The way I started playing BPoHC for the first time, I just did what probably most other people did. I wanted to explore it all. I didn't care about the balance, upgrades, difficulty, heck I never got my save file from anyone and I happened to lose my data twice. Despite that, I was able to explore this game to its fullest. Yeah, sure I was playing on Normal and testing some stuff on Easy, but the game was still was giving me sake despite that. My first ever time I stopped progressing was somewhere near the extra stage. My obvious conclusion, and possibly yours as well as Jaimers' was that the game was badly designed. I just needed to get these upgrades to progress, right?, right? Thing is, here's where the whole counterargument starts.
The entire reason why I never cared about most STG games, even including Touhou or Len'en is because I've lacked motivation to do so. Sure music and story is decent, but why should I ever continue playing them once I hit that wall. BPoHC does an rpg spin, but instead of ending up in grind just like you said so, it also has the roguelike one. I don't know if you ever played any roguelike game, Binding of Isaac, Nuclear Throne, Risk of Rain etc. but these games basically do the same. They add whole 'upgrades' and more 'item unlockables' to your list of motivations. You unlock more and you have an easier time. Here's a catch. BPoHC allows you to remove these upgrades after unlocking them as you please. Something that seemed impossible for me without upgrades, I do without said upgrades now. I've adapted, I've memorized it, I've actually practiced and I wouldn't unless I had some form of 'help'. I know that whole concept might seem non-existent to someone who's already amazing at STGs, but for me, this entire system has an amazing value. If I need power for this game to be any bit enjoyable, there I am playing at Level 0020 with Sukune and Hooaka instead of 0000, no one's going to judge me. If I think game is little to generous with the extends, I can enable skills that turn a lot of events off or use
Kuroji's skill which can simply change extend sub events into something I don't even need anymore.Sure my score will suck, but once again, If you just want to experience all this game has to offer, you in theory can without paying too much attention to upgrades. But this is still an rpg. Instead of bashing the game that you need these upgrades and it sucks that you just can't do Level 0000 run on Unreal, again, no one will judge you if you add an upgrade or two. No one will judge you if you start small just to get these upgrades, just to experience this game. Play the game the way you want to, the way you intend to. If you want to do it the hard way, sure go on, but don't blame the game design for simply allowing it to begin with. And the large variaty of cast also keeps the customization fresh in a way, yes, at least that's the way I've perceived it. The game never forces you to do anything, you don't HAVE to finish Unreal or Abex, but I'll get to that in a sec.
Now, if you've been starting from the beginning like I and probably 90% of the people playing this game did, by the time you finish Ex+a you will have lots and lots of upgrades. You never really have a place to put them to use, which is a shame. Again, from rpg perspective, playing through entire game using only standard basic attacks, but no magic and that sort of stuff must be challenging, but also boring.


Now, the Unreal and AbEx. You know these super hard dungeons in RPGs where you can only go after the game is over and you will almost always die there? That's it for me. Unreal is a bit on the easier side for me. AbEx has no reason to exist to be perfectly honest, but AbEx I am just glad it exists. No, I don't want to play it on level 0000 either. So does this make that mode and by an extension an entire game bad that there is a mode like that? No, I can't say so. Let me get to why I love this game, because I've been playing it for 21 days and never got bored of it so far. This is my personal impression. Were there things that annoyed me? Yes. I still think the game is solid grounds for something spectacular to come as a proof-of-concept, for modding and such, it can become a next big thing.
Can you call grinding in this game required? I don't think so. Will you ever have to grind? Again, that comes up to personal skill and whatever you like grinding or not. Now, that you've heard the whole thing in detail, do you understand what I mean? It's not that I think Jaimers is completly wrong, it's just me, as a different audience disagree with him. The reason why I believe people are baffled by that video/game description is simply because, unlike what I just wrote, doesn't go into details, doesn't actually try explaining why he found this game unfair, bad and such. Looking at what you wrote before and just looking at my and yours impression of the game - they are very different! And they should be. Now, can we stop this pointless argument and move on with our lives? Thank you.
Also
The crash is caused by playing in a non-Japanese locale. Many programs have issues when you try to play them in the wrong locale, so please always run Japanese programs in Japanese locale.
Also another guy, if you don't want game to crash on stage 1, play it through the japanese locale.
 try actually reading instead of bitching for a change
drops the mic
Despatche - Dziś o 04:50
okay, here's the thing: you are from a completely different universe of gaming and believe bpohc is something that it isn't. you wanted to explore it all, but you didn't care about the actual gameplay, you have straight up told me that the gameplay doesn't matter at all. the difference between a superhard dungeon in an RPG and AbEx is that you can actually beat the superhard dungeon fair and square.
you spent this entire discussion disagreeing with every single word i used and wasting so much of my time trying to figure out what the hell you were actually trying to say.
then i saw your newer youtube comment just now, and truly realized what the hell was going on.
no
let me finish
you had your piece
let me finish
you literally have no idea how any bit of this genre works. you know nothing, nothing at all, about game design. you basically don't care about the actual gameplay of bpohc and only care about the characters and the music and all of these other things that are only in games to dress them up and provide an interesting concept. you don't understand that bpohc is not at all like the previous len'en games and has almost no quality control. the reason why people are upset at jaimers's video is because they completely misread his description and are drawing all of these conclusions from it that are not even talking about what he's said, while somehow largely agreeing with him. you don't know english when you see it. you speak a different language that vaguely resembles english, and there can only be misunderstandings when dealing with you. i am tired of it. you don't care about this game or this series, and all you've done is completely waste my time speaking nonsense. good bye and good riddance.