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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Valerie Aurora <valerie.aurora@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Votingmembers] Person's blog post with concerns about the application process
To: Snail <snailtsunami@gmail.com>
Cc: votingmembers <votingmembers@lists.doubleunion.org>


On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Snail <snailtsunami@gmail.com> wrote:
> Matilda links to something [very small three-letter link in second-to-last
> paragraph] that explains what she means better than I could -
> http://amydentata.com/2012/09/13/cissexist-feminism/ - basically she's
> talking about when misandry/patriarchy/etc. jokes are jokes that hurt trans
> people because the person making the joke doesn't really think about the
> implications of what they're saying. Notable Quote - "Every time you equate
> 'misandry' to 'chopping off dicks', you tell an entire group of women that
> they’re really men."

Argh! I have always hated these comments but felt like I must just not
like them because, I dunno, I am just square. But, I mean, joking
about violently and non-consensually mutilating genitals is not okay
in any context.

I resolve to do more research and speak up more often when I hear
things like this, as well as be more careful with my own speech.

> So yeah basically that. When people are joking about the menz sometimes they
> go into language that is transphobic or just don't really THINK about what
> their words imply. I have noticed, mostly online, that some feminist women /
> women / other people are very careful about their language when talking
> about women & gender but then go and throw that all out when talking about
> men & gender and wind up shooting themselves in the foot anyway. - Heck, I
> am probably no saint neither.
>
> So we -can- do something to address that in our space if we just make people
> aware that they should use their words thoughtfully when talking about
> gender & sex, in general, even about men. (Some people try to skirt around

Any chance we can pay someone cash money to teach a workshop on
becoming more aware of and fighting transmisogyny and cissexism?

-VAL

> being careful by just always saying "cismen" instead of "men" when making
> jokes, but I think using words carefully requires more internal reflection
> than that, to be honest.)
>
> .....
>
> Everything else about the smokescreen - we can definitely make the process
> clearer on our submission page - i.e. emphasize the need to have sponsors &
> meet us in person before people fill out the application, try to explain the
> criteria we use which IS well defined, and explain that we do want people
> outside of our current network to join but we want some assurance before
> bringing people in that they DO actually agree with our base assumptions,
> etc.
>
> I don't know if ANY of these things would ever make Matilda personally feel
> comfortable at Double Union, and I don't know the best way to respond to
> her, but we can keep pushing to be better still.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Liz Henry <lizhenry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yah I'm open to that! I don't mean there is nothing we can do about
>> transmisogyny, obviously we can!
>>
>> I just did not know that referring to patriarchy was going to be taken
>> that way; in my mental model of things transmisogyny is *part of*
>> patriarchy, rather than "feminists talking about patriarchy is
>> transmisogynist", which is what I thought Mattilda was saying here.  i.e. I
>> think it is valuable to talk about patriarchy and kyriarchy, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Lynn Cyrin <firemagelynn@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> """
>>> This post also mentions a concern about a past Double Union event ("I
>>> regularly see feminist women make "misandry" jokes that are nothing but than
>>> cloaked transmisogyny (I've seen this at the one Double Union event I went
>>> to, even).") but I don't know if there's anything we can do about that.
>>> """
>>>
>>> People could take the time to together get themselves together and
>>> unlearn cissexism / transmisogyny? Because I'm not seeing any effort to do
>>> that around here. (And this is something that has personally triggered me
>>> SEVERAL times)
>>>
>>> Lynn Cyrin (http://lynncyrin.me) -Sent from Mobile
>>>
>>> On Jul 25, 2014 4:26 PM, "Britta Gustafson" <brittag@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This person is concerned about our open house blog posts saying "good
>>>> fit" without explanation since that phrase is misused by others, and they
>>>> are concerned that our public membership information doesn't explain that we
>>>> have a requirement of meeting people (or what we are looking for in meeting
>>>> people):
>>>> http://trapframe.moe/blog/double-union-good-fit-and-smokescreens.html
>>>>
>>>> I feel pretty bad reading this post, since I wrote "good fit" on the
>>>> blog (without thinking about it much) and wrote the update for the
>>>> membership page without realizing I should note sponsorship by an existing
>>>> member as a qualification (https://www.doubleunion.org/membership), and I
>>>> want to be open to this person's concerns and think about how we can do
>>>> better.
>>>>
>>>> They call "good fit" a smoke screen, and we do have a smoke screen here,
>>>> but I think we can explain it more clearly.
>>>>
>>>> I can add a note about sponsorship to the qualifications explanation on
>>>> the membership page - I think that's a reasonable way to set expectations
>>>> about the membership process. I can also update the blog posts to point to
>>>> the membership page to explain what we mean by "good fit" for anyone reading
>>>> those blog posts without context.
>>>>
>>>> This is what I'd add to the membership page, under "Don't let impostor
>>>> syndrome stop you!": "Along with submitting an application, a qualification
>>>> for membership is that you've met at least one member who is willing to say
>>>> you seem like a reasonable potential member (such as that you'd respect the
>>>> base assumptions, anti-harassment policy, and responsibilities of being a
>>>> member). Please come to events to meet some of us!"
>>>>
>>>> And for the two blog posts that mention "good fit", I'd add this after
>>>> "good fit", to add context without covering up the original text: "(edit:
>>>> see the [membership page for explanation of good fit])".
>>>>
>>>> Do those additions sound like they would address this person's concerns
>>>> while staying accurate to what we want to say?
>>>>
>>>> This post also mentions a concern about a past Double Union event ("I
>>>> regularly see feminist women make "misandry" jokes that are nothing but than
>>>> cloaked transmisogyny (I've seen this at the one Double Union event I went
>>>> to, even).") but I don't know if there's anything we can do about that.
>>>>
>>>> (I saw this post linked from Metafilter comments about the Fast Company
>>>> article -
>>>> http://www.metafilter.com/141238/Be-excellent-to-each-other-is-not-a-code-of-conduct#5656257
>>>> .)
>>>>
>>>> Britta
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Votingmembers@lists.doubleunion.org
>>>> http://lists.doubleunion.org/listinfo.cgi/votingmembers-doubleunion.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Liz Henry
>> lizhenry@gmail.com
>>
>> "Electric ladies will you sleep or will you preach?" -- Janelle Monae
>>
>> "Without models, it's hard to work; without a context, difficult to
>> evaluate; without peers, nearly impossible to speak." -- Joanna Russ
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Votingmembers mailing list
>> Votingmembers@lists.doubleunion.org
>> http://lists.doubleunion.org/listinfo.cgi/votingmembers-doubleunion.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
> ............. _@y
> http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/
>
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>
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--
Lynn Cyrin
http://lynncyrin.me

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