Xonotic bot discussion 28-09-12

[13:04] <rocknroll237>  Yo, I'm here to talk about modifying AI within Xonotic. http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2451&pid=49843#pid49843
[13:04] <rocknroll237> Is it feasible?
[13:10] <@divVerent> rocknroll237: no, or rather
[13:10] <@divVerent> if you do it, you'd be our hero
[13:10] <@divVerent> we all want that
[13:10] <@divVerent> but we can't do it
[13:10] <rocknroll237> How come?
[13:11] <@divVerent> 1. is the easiest part of the list
[13:11] <@divVerent> because we didn't write the bot code
[13:11] <@divVerent> LordHavoc did
[13:11] <rocknroll237> Can it not be edited?
[13:11] <@divVerent> sure it can
[13:11] <@divVerent> but we don't have enough coders for that
[13:11] <rocknroll237> okay
[13:11] <@divVerent> bot code is quite a lot, and we have too much other things to tackle too
[13:12] <@divVerent> issue 2. isn't that bad, and mappers can help a lot by making better waypoints
[13:12] <@divVerent> i.e. adjusting places where bots crash into stuff
[13:12] <@divVerent> by moving the waypoints
[13:12] <@divVerent> and 3. is the hardest one to fix
[13:12] <rocknroll237> Okay
[13:12] <rocknroll237> Thanks for clearing that up
[13:12] <@divVerent> while 1. could be a topic for a new coders
[13:12] <rocknroll237> I'll update my post on the forum
[13:12] <@divVerent> actually, this should maybe even work in team matches
[13:12] <@divVerent> e.g. we already have those voice commands
[13:12] <@divVerent> we could e.g. make these voice commands also order the nearest bot around
[13:13] <@divVerent> not stuff like drop the flag
[13:13] <@divVerent> only goal stuff, though
[13:13] <@divVerent> or it'd be too much abused
[13:13] <@divVerent> stuff like "please go attacking" e.g. would be very nice and wouldn't do much harm in multiplayer
[13:14] <@divVerent> as for flag dropping... this should wait a little ;)
[13:14] <@divVerent> we recently got flag passing implemented
[13:14] <@divVerent> once that's ironed out
[13:14] <@divVerent> bots could e.g. automatically pass to a nearby team mate if their health drops too far
[13:14] <rocknroll237> cool
[13:15] <rocknroll237> Have you seen post 29?
[13:15] <@divVerent> sure
[13:15] <rocknroll237> That's the post that is most important as I've put some links in to bot coding
[13:15] <@divVerent> if you want to code a new AI
[13:15] <@divVerent> that could be nice
[13:15] <@divVerent> the current AI is probably broken beyond repair in many ways
[13:15] <@divVerent> so we probably need a completely redone AI
[13:15] <rocknroll237> wow
[13:15] <@divVerent> links won't help much though, Xonotic differs a lot from Quake
[13:15] <@divVerent> you can't just copy code
[13:15] <rocknroll237> okay
[13:15] <@divVerent> you actually need to know how it works :P
[13:15] <rocknroll237> yeah, I gathered that...
[13:15] <rocknroll237> :D
[13:16] <@divVerent> the current AI has some good points
[13:16] <@divVerent> and these should be kept
[13:16] <@divVerent> e.g. the easy waypointing
[13:16] <@divVerent> and the roles system
[13:16] <@divVerent> but their navigation and fight tactics
[13:16] <@divVerent> are very much up for replacement
[13:16] <@divVerent> they're also where the bots waste their CPU power
[13:16] <rocknroll237> yeah
[13:17] <@divVerent> but, making a new bot AI will be a quite large topic
[13:17] <rocknroll237> But in order to fix their navigation and fight tactics, does that mean new AI has to be made from scratch?
[13:17] <@divVerent> mostly, yes
[13:17] <@divVerent> you can keep the routing and waypoints code
[13:17] <rocknroll237> so certain aspects can't just be modified?
[13:17] <@divVerent> only the walking from one WP to next needs changing
[13:17] <rocknroll237> oh okay
[13:17] <@divVerent> it's essentially the same
[13:17] <@divVerent> e.g. the aiming has quite a lot of code
[13:17] <@divVerent> with simulated lag and such
[13:17] <rocknroll237> yes
[13:18] <@divVerent> to do a nice skill system and to make them aim more human-like
[13:18] <@divVerent> but this didn't turn out well and created a LOT of complexity
[13:18] <@divVerent> if that gets thrown out, nobody will miss it
[13:18] <@divVerent> I still recommend
[13:18] <@divVerent> if you want to learn QuakeC
[13:18] <@divVerent> work on topic 1. first
[13:18] <rocknroll237> yes
[13:18] <@divVerent> you will get quick results that will be highly appreciated
[13:18] <@divVerent> and this also can probably be kept when replacing the inner workings of the bots
[13:18] <rocknroll237> I might make a pastebin file of this and add it to the forum post just for clarity
[13:19] <@divVerent> go ahead
[13:19] <rocknroll237> brb
[13:19] <@divVerent> also, markers won't be needed
[13:19] <@divVerent> just make them respond to the existing voice commands
[13:19] <@divVerent> as a side effect, that will mean also better player-player communication in tema games
[13:19] <@divVerent> as players will better learn using these commands
[13:20] <@divVerent> we do have a few existing voice commands that also set a marker
[13:20] <@divVerent> these could also be bot orders, of course