Session Start: Wed Oct 20 09:29:36 2010
Session Ident: #eve-dev
[09:29] * Now talking in #eve-dev
[09:29] * Topic is 'EVE Development Network | We don't actually play EVE (or WoW) | Not an official EVE channel | Not just a killboard support channel | Datadumps: http://eve.no-ip.de/tyr104/ | Wiki: http://wiki.eve-id.net/ | API Reference: http://wiki.eve-id.net/APIv2_Page_Index | You're with stupid'
[09:29] * Set by exi on Sun Sep 12 08:38:08
[09:29] <mazzilliu> is this the channel where they do a lot of API stuff?
[09:30] <cncfanatics> mazzilliu: kindof
[09:31] <mazzilliu> ok, right now im collecting a whole big long list of api complaints and feature requests, because some guy at ccp is working on it and wants csm feedback
[09:31] <mazzilliu> deidra vaal already sent out a query to some api people and i just finished taking that apart
[09:31] <mazzilliu> so if you guys have any more stuff to contribute that would be cool
[09:32] <Dark-Fx> My complaint is I want to be able to use the API keys with the IGB and JS rather than having to hit an external server :)
[09:32] <Arkady> mazzilliu: Do you know about http://piratepad.net/MtOiHV2URj ?
[09:32] <mazzilliu> what do you mean?  you can pull api pages using the igb, cant you?  it wont make a whole lot of sense but i think its possible
[09:32] <mazzilliu> thank you arkady i did not see that before
[09:32] <FRKT> For what it's worth, I have no idea what Dark-Fx means either.
[09:33] <Arkady> mazzilliu: That's PrismX' project to get API feedback, so he is already aware of the stuff on it, though.
[09:34] <Arkady> My biggest "big wishlist item" is more fine-grained control for the API keys
[09:34] <mazzilliu> ok cool.  i dont know what the status of prismx's project is but ccp stillman is the one who is asking us for this feedback
[09:34] <Arkady> The rest is just details
[09:34] <mazzilliu> yeah, the security of api keys was one of the top requested things, i put a lot of emphasis on it
[09:35] <mazzilliu> even though i am nerfing myself ;[
[09:35] <FRKT> That'd be really great; a lot of people are scared about sharing their API keys right now.
[09:35] <mazzilliu> as well they should be, if a full api means you can backup all their evemails and stuff
[09:35] <Dark-Fx> mazzilliu: I'd like to have an ability to make temporary API keys, or ones restricted to a single domain/ip address
[09:35] <Arkady> I think the other security-relevant thing is the API keys are often used for authentication purposes, which is not *quite* what they're supposed to do. But with ACLs, that is mostly solved, too. (Alternative would be either one-time tokens that map (token, charactername) to a boolean, or - sometimes requested - openid integration)
[09:36] <FRKT> Yes, certainly - they just seem precisely as worried about the limited-access API key, which can do pretty much nothing.
[09:36] <FRKT> ;-)
[09:36] <mazzilliu> yeah dark thats something thats already in my document.  as one of the several proposed schemes for tightening api security
[09:36] <FRKT> Nice.
[09:36] <mazzilliu> FRKT- i think that might be because people dont understand what exactly you can get..... with the current api documentation, who can blame them
[09:36] <Arkady> Oh, yeah, and the API access log available via API :-]
[09:36] <FRKT> mazzilliu: Yes, exactly.
[09:37] <mazzilliu> the api access log sucks right now
[09:37] <FRKT> So there's like, an entire team at CCP working on the API now? I'm impressed.
[09:37] <mazzilliu> who checks that every single week anyways?
[09:37] <mazzilliu> i think its like one scrum team working on the api
[09:37] <mazzilliu> theyve been releasing dev blogs about new features theyre adding
[09:37] <Arkady> mazzilliu: Yeah, that's why I want it available via the API, too, so I can automate the tests
[09:37] <FRKT> Yes, we've been keeping tabs.
[09:37] <mazzilliu> and their release planning is soon.... thats why they want this feedback
[09:37] <Arkady> Er, checks
[09:37] <mazzilliu> arkady: that is a good point, i will add it to the list
[09:39] <Dark-Fx> I'd like to see there be a way to make multiple API page requests in the same http session
[09:39] <mazzilliu> why?
[09:40] <Arkady> The CharacterInfo API call they're adding with tyr120 will solve most of my real headaches. Which is awesome.
[09:40] <Dark-Fx> reduces the amount of back and forth
[09:40] <mazzilliu> does the actual back and forth cause a lot of load on the server?
[09:40] <Arkady> I seriously doubt it
[09:41] <Arkady> If you don't want to open new connections, use the HTTP/1.1 feature to keep connections open. Shouldn't make any difference at all for the server between that and sending multiple requests at once.
[09:41] <FRKT> mazillu: I'd be amazing if you could implement OAuth as an alternate way to verify someone's EVE identity, but that may be beyond the scope of what you're doing right now.
[09:41] * Ar offered an idea of totally configurable api keys some time ago on features and ideas forum
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[09:42] <mazzilliu> OAuth with eve gate and api keys was something i mentioned in the document already
[09:42] <mazzilliu> :)
[09:42] <FRKT> I think I love you a little bit.
[09:42] <Arkady> Ar: ACLs are one of the most-requested features, yes
[09:42] <mazzilliu> we need to have totally configurable api keys anyways for security reasons
[09:42] <mazzilliu> the user id shows far too much information
[09:42] <mazzilliu> but its just a big pita for them to do that
[09:42] <mazzilliu> ACLs are already listed in my document
[09:42] <Arkady> mazz still gets angry propellers for fake kill mail seeding. *nerdrage* :-P
[09:43] <mazzilliu> ))))))))))
[09:44] <Ar> http://eve-search.com/thread/1210626/page/1#1 - found my post
[09:44] <Arkady> Speaking of which, kill mail signing and/or API to pull the kill mails for all involved would be nice. But PrismX already said that that's likely a no-go.
[09:44] <FRKT> Ar: Dude, your face.
[09:44] <mazzilliu> thank you ar
[09:44] * Garik is now known as Garik|AFK
[09:44] <mazzilliu> i have something exactly like that already in my document
[09:45] <Ar> spooky intaki?
[09:45] <FRKT> Arkady: What do you mean, "killmail signing"?
[09:45] <Dark-Fx> Perhaps add a way to get fitting information on named ships
[09:45] <Arkady> Also, if CCP could re-implement EDK, that'd be awesome, kthx.
[09:45] <Ar> that was almost a year ago
[09:45] <mazzilliu> killmails need to be moved to a lower security level
[09:45] <mazzilliu> corp director full api key is just silly
[09:45] <Arkady> FRKT: Public key signature to verify that it's not a fake :-D
[09:45] <Ar> what about POS fuels?
[09:45] <Arkady> mazzilliu: ACLs are the solution to everything \o/
[09:46] <mazzilliu> yes arkady i agree
[09:46] <Arkady> mazzilliu: Biggest problem is really that you need the API key of the final blow or the victim
[09:46] <mazzilliu> Ar doesnt the api already give you pos fuel levels?  but not mod setup or anything like that.  thats something i put in my list
[09:46] <Arkady> Means most killboards will need to fetch from other killboards, and can not rely fully on the API
[09:47] <Arkady> mazzilliu: Mod setup is difficult, as it's not stored in the server - but adding actual module coordinates so we can calculated the setup ourselves shouldn't be a big issue
[09:47] <Ar> to get pos levels you need director full key
[09:47] <FRKT> Arkady: I'm with you.
[09:47] <Ar> pos fuel levels i mean
[09:47] <mazzilliu> BRB
[09:48] <Arkady> Oh, did I mention that EDK is horrible for making API keys readable to every corp admin after they are added? I mean, if you get the killboard admin password, you get the corp director API keys of all corps added there. That's just silly.
[09:49] <Arkady> (Say, *SOMEONE* would offer 10m ISK per killboard admin password, that's what she wants...)
[09:49] <Arkady> I could probably rage about EDK for a day straight with no problem :-)
[09:49] <Arkady> And am still too lazy to write a replacement. :-|
[09:49] <Arkady> So, <3 to all of the EDK devs.
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[09:50] <mazzilliu> about the pos module thing, how can you say they arent stored on the server?  the pos tower interface definitely recognizes them
[09:51] <mazzilliu> also lol arkady.  you would be surprised how few people took me up on that offer.
[09:51] <FRKT> Arkady: EDK is horrible for a great many reasons.
[09:51] <mazzilliu> what exactly is edk?
[09:51] <Entaran> eve dev killboard?
[09:51] <Arkady> The EVE Dev Killboard
[09:51] <Entaran> aka: NOT pandemic's kb
[09:51] <FRKT> It's a killboard written in PHP that has existed since... I don't know... 2004?
[09:51] <Entaran> http://www.eve-kill.net <-- edk
[09:51] <Arkady> The standard killboard you see everywhere except for battleclinic, griefwatch, PL and the russians
[09:51] <mazzilliu> ohhh you mean that kb that gets flooded by fake killmails once in a while
[09:51] <mazzilliu> yes tsk tsk
[09:51] <Arkady> Yes, that one
[09:52] <FRKT> Well, no.
[09:52] <Arkady> Sadly, no good workaround for fake killmails
[09:52] <FRKT> eve-kill.net only runs EDK.
[09:52] <FRKT> It's just software, not a website.
[09:52] <mazzilliu> i remember one day we managed to fill their front page of kills with characters named "evsco is gay" losing freighters full of thousands of freighters
[09:52] <Entaran> i was giving an actual example of a running copy of edk.
[09:52] <Entaran> stop being so freaking pedantic
[09:53] <FRKT> I was talking to mazzilliu, Entaran. Stop being so defensive.
[09:53] <Arkady> Entaran: Dude, you're among the inner circle of nerds among the spaceship nerds here. What do you expect.
[09:53] <mazzilliu> theres some sort of bug in that software, if you lose enough isk, itll break the page and nobody can view your kill
[09:53] <Entaran> sorry. srsbsns and all that.
[09:53] <mazzilliu> i cant replicate it because i couldnt view the page to see which fake mail it was :|
[09:53] <Entaran> mazzilliu: it was an apotheosis
[09:54] <mazzilliu> was it just because of the apotheosis ship type?
[09:54] <Arkady> mazzilliu: "I found a bug in EDK" is a bit like "I found a mission runner in Motsu"
[09:54] <FRKT> I think any killboard software is prone to being spammed by fake killmails, unfortunately. =/
[09:54] <mazzilliu> lmao arkady
[09:54] <Entaran> mazzilliu: there was also one with a zephyr that lost like 6x10^77 isk
[09:54] <Arkady> FRKT: Yeah, currently, there's no way around fake mails, sadly
[09:54] <FRKT> Yup.
[09:54] <mazzilliu> wuahaha
[09:55] <mazzilliu> i dont know what will happen if someone named ';drop table `killmails`# gets killed i am afraid of ruining everything
[09:55] <Entaran> ok it's 1am here, I'm australian and my bed is calling so fuck you all I'm going to sleep <3
[09:55] * FRKT waves.
[09:55] <Arkady> I already checked, *most* of the sql injection stuff is prevented already
[09:55] <mazzilliu> ok guys thanks for your input with the api stuff, if you come up with anything else i will be idling here for a while
[09:55] <mazzilliu> only most of it?  awesome
[09:56] <mazzilliu> you only really need 1
[09:56] <Arkady> If you ever wondered why EDK uses alliance ids, system ids, etc. for everything instead of names: My best guess is that intval() is the easiest sql injection "protection".
[09:56] <mazzilliu> pdo or die
[09:57] <Hellclan|Oraclegol> Arkady, does not magicquotes fix that for strings ?
[09:57] <Candle> magicquotes is just retarded.
[09:57] <mazzilliu> magic quotes lol @+@
[09:57] <Arkady> Hellclan|Oraclegol: What they said
[09:57] <mazzilliu> use pdo or nothing.  sql injection ought to be a thing of the past by now
[09:57] <Arkady> Just don't do PHP. :-P
[09:57] <mazzilliu> also, are there any other channels on this coldfront irc where there are a lot of api nerds?
[09:58] <FRKT> I don't think so.
[09:58] <mazzilliu> ok
[09:58] <Arkady> None really active with people not here as well.
[09:58] <Arkady> Might try #eve-chaos
[09:58] <mazzilliu> well it is good to know i am on the right track with this list of requests
[09:58] <Arkady> But that's only tangential
[09:58] <mazzilliu> what does eve-chaos do?
[09:58] <Arkady> It's the official SiSi testing channel
[09:58] <mazzilliu> ugh i have to register to get in
[09:59] <Candle> Arkady: When I was last in #eve-chaos, the people there (who cared about the API) are a subset of the people here.
[09:59] <mazzilliu> okay, well if all the same people are in here too then i wont worry about chaos
[09:59] <Arkady> Candle: Yeah, I'd suspect that, too
[10:00] <mazzilliu> im not submitting this doc until tomorrow.  so if you guys come up with some idea, or if one of your api friends comes along and you think they have something valuaable to add, ping me in this channel or send me an evemail in game
[10:01] <Arkady> I put all my wishes on that piratepad I linked earlier
[10:01] <Arkady> I guess most others did, too
[10:01] <Arkady> mazzilliu: And thanks :-)
[10:01] <mazzilliu> yeah i finished going through the whole piratepad thing too
[10:01] <mazzilliu> yw
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[10:06] * enforce is now known as Darriele
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[10:09] <Femaref> mazzilliu: any way of seeing the doc?
[10:09] <mazzilliu> yes
[10:09] <mazzilliu> i will post it.... want to see how it is currently?
[10:09] <Femaref> does it involve handing over my api? :P
[10:09] <Femaref> yes, sure
[10:09] <mazzilliu> yes :}
[10:10] <mazzilliu> http://mazzilliu.com/api/  there you go the doc is coming up in a second.... do you have open office?
[10:10] <Femaref> ~.~
[10:10] <mazzilliu> it is .odt
[10:10] <Femaref> yes I do. but you won't get my api
[10:10] <mazzilliu> pshaw.  maybe i already have it.
[10:10] <Femaref> (you probably have it already anyway)
[10:11] <mazzilliu> http://mazzilliu.com/api/api.odt  there you go
[10:12] <mazzilliu> i dont think i am going to add the pirate pad as a source document.  someone will edit it and make it say penis penis penis penis....
[10:13] <Femaref> thanks
[10:13] <Hellclan|Oraclegol> btw +1 at bpos, and bpc showing up on the km
[10:13] <Femaref> yup, +1 on that
[10:14] <Femaref> god, whoever designed the amarr cosmos missis deserves to be shot.
[10:19] <mazzilliu> http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1402513      B}
[10:19] <Arkady> The BPO/BPC thing is a big issue and not really API-solvable
[10:20] <mazzilliu> arkady i agree.  but its something i am determined to bring up over and over again until ccp work on it
[10:20] <Arkady> mazzilliu: They already are, I think?
[10:20] <mazzilliu> i think so.  i heard some talk about it anyways
[10:20] <Femaref> no
[10:20] <Arkady> There was a mentioning of that when they talked about the 64 bit itemids
[10:20] <Femaref> they aren't working on it
[10:20] <Femaref> but they have it on their plans
[10:20] <Femaref> so it's an improvement by about 1000%
[10:20] <mazzilliu> yeah
[10:20] <mazzilliu> lol
[10:21] <Femaref> from previously "not doable" to "yeah, maybe"
[10:21] <mazzilliu> well i just want to make sure they remain aware of it
[10:21] <mazzilliu> maybe someday with enough pushing they will actually do it
[10:21] <Femaref> just go drinking with them abit more often?
[10:21] <mazzilliu> lmao yes
[10:22] <Femaref> could go find the dev that designed the amarr cosmos missis please?
[10:22] <Femaref> I want to ask him one thing
[10:22] <Femaref> "why time triggered missions"
[10:22] <mazzilliu> he probably did it because he is a big greifer in game who does not like carebears
[10:22] <Arkady> Can I ask for a general capital rebalance while we're at it? <.<
[10:22] <Femaref> well
[10:22] <Hellclan|Oraclegol> lol
[10:22] <Femaref> the caldari arc spawns more money
[10:22] <mazzilliu> arkady we actually talked about the current supercap aituation this last iceland meeting
[10:22] <Femaref> and is alot less of a pain in the ass.
[10:22] <mazzilliu> situation*
[10:22] <Femaref> but you need amarr 7.0 for akemon
[10:22] <Arkady> mazzilliu: <3
[10:23] <mazzilliu> it is part of a bigger problem... how basically the eve economy has too many minerals and too much isk.  people arent going to give up their supercaps, so we were saying basically maybe your game design should take into account this new reality
[10:23] <mazzilliu> i cant promise it sunk in tho
[10:25] <Arkady> mazzilliu: I'm in a lower mid-sized empire alliance (~300 people), and it's pretty much impossible for us right now to use caps. No low-sec system is empty, anyone could be a PL alt, and even if we really tried, we have no chance in hell to counter 16 SCs and 9 carriers (which is what dropped in recently). Using caps is currently a pure game of chance.
[10:25] <Arkady> (I have no issue with some dudes being bigger than us and us not being able to counter them, but the cap jump range and neutral cloaked cyno alts make it impossible to scout or be prepared, which is my issue)
[10:26] <mazzilliu> theres a lot of issues
[10:26] <Arkady> Yeah
[10:26] <mazzilliu> i think its funny we've(and other big alliances) struck fear in the hearts of everybody though
[10:26] <mazzilliu> but it still needs to be fixed
[10:27] * karbowiak is now known as Karbowiak
[10:27] <Arkady> Yeah. I have no issue with PL doing what they do. I just think it's bad game design, because it makes growing beyond a certain point incredibly difficult.
[10:28] <Karbowiak> oh dear, mazzilol is here
[10:28] <mazzilliu> hello my love
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[10:29] <Karbowiak> whats up, tired of trolling the same people, and figured you might come troll some of the developers of stuff in EVE?
[10:29] <mazzilliu> yep!
[10:29] <mazzilliu> read up, look at them sweet trolls
[10:29] <Karbowiak> or did you actually come with a purpose this time ?
[10:29] <Karbowiak> owait no nevermind
[10:29] <Karbowiak> mazzilol never has a purpose
[10:29] <Karbowiak> besides gaying up the place
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[10:29] <Karbowiak> you do that great tho
[10:29] <mazzilliu> hahahhahaha
[10:29] <cncfanatics> Karbowiak: bit like you :>
[10:29] <Arkady> Karbowiak: Could you stop emoraging and behave for a second?
[10:30] <Karbowiak> im not raging :D
[10:30] <Hellclan|Oraclegol> this is eve Arkady
[10:30] <Arkady> Karbowiak: Yes you are. Now stop.
[10:30] <Femaref> Karbowiak: don't be so butthurt
[10:30] <Karbowiak> lol
[10:30] <Karbowiak> being butthurt, thats good
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[10:31] <mazzilliu> :3
[10:31] * Akiraaa has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[10:32] <Karbowiak> so why are you actually here ?
[10:32] <Karbowiak> i honestly cba to scroll up to read the terrible shit you write
[10:32] <cncfanatics> Karbowiak: shut up you got something useful to say
[10:32] <cncfanatics> or , if not useful, shut up until you're entertaining again
[10:32] <mazzilliu> i came here to discover the secrets of the universe
[10:32] <Karbowiak> iknow, im always saying usefull stuff
[10:32] <Karbowiak> 42
[10:33] <Karbowiak> now get out
[10:33] <mazzilliu> but all i found were eve-kill.net bugs to exploit
[10:33] <Karbowiak> theres also alot of them, feel free to use em like everyone else is :)
[10:34] <mazzilliu> am i still banned from #esc?
[10:34] <Karbowiak> doubt it
[10:35] <MaZ-> remember that bug with EDK where you could login to 1 killboard on a shared server and gain access to them all?
[10:35] <MaZ-> i had fun with that
[10:35] <Karbowiak> http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/20/man-traps-himself-in-toilet-trying-to-retrieve-cellphone-has-ti/ he really needed his cellphone
[10:35] <MaZ-> ¬___________¬
[10:35] <Karbowiak> that was a great bug
[10:36] <mazzilliu> i liked that EDK thing where you could set up a malicious killboard that would feed nothing but a stream of fake mails, and the eve-kill server would pick it up.  that was a good day for mankind
[10:36] <MaZ-> ¬____________________¬
[10:36] <MaZ->  <-- | MullaNasrudin (kugutsumen@spy.ccpgames.com) has quit (Quitting)
[10:36] <MaZ->  --> | MullaNasrudin (kugutsumen@spy.ccpgames.com) has joined #dev
[10:37] <MaZ-> !!!!!!
[10:37] <mazzilliu> Spy
[10:37] <Karbowiak> EDK is epic
[10:38] <Femaref> and by epic you mean shit?
[10:38] <Karbowiak> you are epicly quick
[10:38] <mazzilliu> dont hate on edk guys
[10:38] <mazzilliu> i love edk
[10:38] <mazzilliu> i think every killboard should use edk
[10:38] <PeterPowers> Arkady: if it wasnt the supercapitals there would be other reasons you couldnt use your cap fleet, for example the huge cap blobs all large alliances can field
[10:39] <Arkady> PeterPowers: As I explained above, my problem is not "supercapitals", but "unscoutable supercaps"
[10:39] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: feeding fake mails is poor trolling, nothing else.
[10:39] <Karbowiak> EDK is atleast more useable than the terrible shit PL has
[10:39] <PeterPowers> Arkady: "unscoutable"?
[10:39] <Karbowiak> 200% worse, but more useable
[10:40] <mazzilliu> sorry i am not good at killboard epeen contests
[10:40] <mazzilliu> i am just saying i love edk
[10:40] <Karbowiak> you are pretty terrible in general
[10:40] <Karbowiak> but i like the image you are setting up for yourself - makes you seem way more likeable
[10:40] <mazzilliu> arkady- i agree, there is literally no intel tool you can use to scout the enemy supercaps short of metagaming
[10:40] <mazzilliu> and i dont think it is good game design to force people to rely on that only
[10:40] <PeterPowers> Karbowiak: edk in its basics is fucked up, not matter how much kovell is cleaning up, edk is broken and horrible code which is way beyond its lifetime
[10:41] <Karbowiak> have i ever said otherwise? :D
[10:41] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: there are the same means as scouting any other jump capable ship
[10:41] <Karbowiak> aww, mazzilul cant spy
[10:41] <Arkady> PeterPowers: I can use fleets of 20 ships even though there are alliances out there that have 200+ ships in a fleet, because I can scout for them. I can't scout hot drop situations. This applies to all of capitals, supercapitals, and titan bridges. (This is not a "remove all jump drive stuff", because I *like* the jump drive stuff, it's an explanation of the problem - I have no cool simple idea on how to solve the problem)
[10:41] <mazzilliu> yeah, you can watch their home system and watch for cyno alts, but there are ways around that too
[10:42] <MaZ-> you can scout hotdrops?
[10:42] <PeterPowers> there is no way arround cyno characters, other than logging off
[10:43] <PeterPowers> one could log off 300bs aswell
[10:43] <PeterPowers> so not a supercapital/capital problem
[10:43] <cncfanatics> Its much easier to hotdrop
[10:43] <cncfanatics> Muuuch
[10:44] <PeterPowers> so?
[10:44] <Arkady> The current "hip thing" seems to be to have your SCs in some system afking, and half a dozen alts flying around trying to find a target
[10:44] <PeterPowers> thats how hotdrops allways worked
[10:44] <PeterPowers> nothing new
[10:44] <mazzilliu> yeah
[10:44] <mazzilliu> theres really no counter except more numbers
[10:44] <PeterPowers> new is all the whine about it
[10:44] <Arkady> New is also the proliferation of people who do it :-)
[10:45] <Arkady> And the way how SCs are an incredibly strong step up from a cap fleet
[10:45] <MaZ-> this isnt much different to not being able to scout a login trap aside from the fact the trappers have to be set up in advance
[10:45] <MaZ-> but if its about system defence, then it's identical!
[10:45] <cncfanatics> Its not identical, because its much easier to log 1 cyno alt
[10:45] <cncfanatics> then 300 people
[10:45] <cncfanatics> The numbers and coordination neededare wildly different
[10:45] <PeterPowers> you need to have all 300 logged in in both cases
[10:46] <MaZ-> logging in 300 peopple is the same logistically for both
[10:46] <MaZ-> you still need to get 300 people into system
[10:46] <MaZ-> which comes with exactly the same issues
[10:46] <PeterPowers> besieds mazzillius alliance is know for logoff/login traveling
[10:46] <PeterPowers> hrhr
[10:46] <cncfanatics> Logged out in one place for the login trap, and logging in all close together
[10:46] <Arkady> If some alliance would field a dozen caps, we can think about countering it. Have them add 1-2 SCs, and we more or less can scrap it. The step in fleet strength from those ships is hilarious.
[10:46] <MaZ-> PeterPowers: PL would do no such thing!
[10:46] <mazzilliu> pl has too much honour to ever log off
[10:46] <Arkady> PeterPowers: mazz has the cool attitude of using stuff if it's broken, but not claiming it's not broken just because they use it
[10:46] <mazzilliu> we always stay logged in forever
[10:46] <Arkady> I wish more people in EVE would do that
[10:46] <MaZ-> PL has always been liek that tho
[10:47] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: its a common PL way of moving caps fast: jump, logoff, logon, jump again since cap regained :)
[10:47] <MaZ-> shadoo abused doomsdays literally constantly for 6 months under the premise of wanting to get it nerfed
[10:47] <PeterPowers> dont try to fool me, i know it :)
[10:47] <MaZ-> PeterPowers: why doesnt everyone do that
[10:47] <MaZ-> its a game mechanic that hasnt changed in years
[10:47] <PeterPowers> MaZ-: im not saying its bad that they are using it
[10:47] <PeterPowers> MaZ-: thing is that most alliances fail at quick logoff login stuff
[10:48] <MaZ-> why tho :V
[10:48] <MaZ-> idgi
[10:48] <PeterPowers> hell they dont even manage to move their fleets at once cause allways some retards fuck up =)
[10:48] <mazzilliu> PL can always find the next new broken thing after the last old broken thing gets nerfed when everyone abuses it.  so long as we can stay ahead of the curve im happy :D
[10:49] <MaZ-> im glad i quit now
[10:49] <MaZ-> the only fun part of eve is the metagame
[10:49] <Karbowiak> so misusing features is what PL is all about
[10:49] <Karbowiak> fuck yeah
[10:49] <mazzilliu> ccc
[10:49] <mazzilliu> karbowiak, fuck yeah
[10:49] <MaZ-> not misusing
[10:49] <MaZ-> using
[10:49] <Karbowiak> even better coming from a CSM member
[10:49] <Kralian> should just fix is so you login with empty cap
[10:49] <MaZ-> they may or may not be "unintended", but they are still features
[10:50] <Karbowiak> noone cares MaZ-
[10:50] <MaZ-> you apparently do
[10:50] <PeterPowers> actually if its clear that its not intended it falls by eula under exploit
[10:50] <Karbowiak> nop
[10:50] <PeterPowers> the question is allways "is this crossing the line"
[10:50] * Garik|AFK is now known as Garik
[10:50] <PeterPowers> logoff-reload is creative use
[10:50] <Karbowiak> im just gaying up the place while waiting
[10:50] <PeterPowers> and Kralian, just making empty on login opens a whole new can of worms
[10:51] <PeterPowers> ships dying because they cant rise tank after login...
[10:51] <cncfanatics> save the old cap value ?
[10:51] * exi has joined #eve-dev
[10:51] * ChanServ sets mode: +oq exi exi
[10:51] <PeterPowers> cncfanatics: that would probably make the most sense
[10:51] <MaZ-> or just have cap recharge at natural rate while ship is logged off
[10:51] <MaZ-> that makes the most sense :V
[10:52] <PeterPowers> have the ship not disappear while cap is full then :)
[10:52] <PeterPowers> is not full even
[10:52] <Karbowiak> makes alot of sense to discuss this here, where noone can fix it - now even mazzilul
[10:52] <cncfanatics> Karbowiak: let us discuss what we want, mmkay ?
[10:53] <PeterPowers> ideas from here have been heard before.
[10:53] <PeterPowers> see this chan has a bit of a purpose bsesides your emorage and trolling
[10:53] <mazzilliu> actually earlier i was collecting feedback from this channel about some api stuff that a ccp guy specifically asked for
[10:53] <mazzilliu> so yeah it does help
[10:54] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: whats that about?
[10:54] <mazzilliu> scroll up
[10:54] <mazzilliu> ccp are working on the api now
[10:54] <mazzilliu> and they wanted feedback from the csm
[10:54] <PeterPowers> its allready out of my buffer
[10:54] <MaZ-> mazzilliu | ok, right now im collecting a whole big long list of api complaints and feature requests, because some guy at ccp is
[10:54] <mazzilliu> so ive been gatherine feedback from everywhere
[10:54] <MaZ->           | working on it and wants csm feedback
[10:54] <MaZ-> mazzilliu | deidra vaal already sent out a query to some api people and i just finished taking that apart
[10:54] <MaZ-> mazzilliu | so if you guys have any more stuff to contribute that would be cool
[10:54] <Arkady> PeterPowers: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1402513
[10:54] <mazzilliu> thanks maz- :3
[10:54] <MaZ-> yw :£
[10:55] <PeterPowers> .odt
[10:55] <PeterPowers> wtf
[10:55] <mazzilliu> open office
[10:55] <mazzilliu> best office
[10:55] <MaZ-> WORST
[10:55] <Batolemaeus> don't be hating on open office
[10:55] <MaZ-> google docs best docs
[10:55] <Batolemaeus> or libre office
[10:55] <Arkady> All real men use .dvi
[10:55] <PeterPowers> how about a format that doesnt need you to install some retarded office package? :)
[10:55] <mazzilliu> i thought that was such a format
[10:55] <MaZ-> .txt
[10:55] <mazzilliu> it doesnt make you install microsoft office even a little bit
[10:56] <Necrogami> !tz
[10:56] <Valkyrie> usage: tz [NOW|time [AM|PM]] <timezone> [timezone]
[10:56] <PeterPowers> it needs me to install something that can open odt
[10:56] <Karbowiak> cncfanatics discussing futile stuff seems dumb
[10:56] <Arkady> PeterPowers: No, it doesn't. Just unzip it and read the XML.
[10:56] <Karbowiak> esp. with retards that dont even take stuff seriously
[10:56] <Karbowiak> and by stuff i mean eve
[10:56] <Necrogami> !tz 3pm +11 -5
[10:56] <Valkyrie> tz: Bogus time specification
[10:56] <Necrogami> ugh
[10:56] <Karbowiak> !tz NOW pdt
[10:56] <Valkyrie> Wed, 20 Oct 2010 07:58:42 PDT (Pacific Daylight Time, UTC -0700)
[10:57] <Karbowiak> this could come in handy
[10:57] <mazzilliu> not taking eve seriously is retarded tbh
[10:57] <mazzilliu> i agree
[10:58] <Karbowiak> eh
[10:58] <Karbowiak> you are the one not taking it serious, but fair enough
[10:58] <Karbowiak> i love how you took a spot on the CSM just to feed your own ego
[10:58] <PeterPowers> granular api is in, api access to logs is in.. (my favorite subjects)
[10:58] <Karbowiak> you must be real sad in real life to seek attention this way
[10:58] <PeterPowers> oauth is in
[10:59] * Arkady checks.
[10:59] <Karbowiak> anyway, i digress
[10:59] <Arkady> My "CorporationSheet doesn't list faction" bug is still open and not filtered %)
[10:59] <Karbowiak> go hack some more killboards, to make you look more cool
[10:59] <mazzilliu> x]
[10:59] <PeterPowers> encrypted api access isnt
[10:59] <mazzilliu> karbowiak you are my new favorite person
[10:59] <Karbowiak> hell, add in some forums
[10:59] <Karbowiak> just to seem more edgy
[10:59] * Ar trains his psychic powers
[11:00] <Ar> two days ago I was asking about gatetest.eveonline.com and now we have test.evegate.com
[11:00] <Ar> yay
[11:00] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: https for the api, and sending evemails through api would be nice
[11:00] <mazzilliu> peter- you mean write access with evemails thru api?
[11:00] <PeterPowers> you could say it this way, yes
[11:01] <mazzilliu> that would be a first.  none of the api has any direct influence over the game in any other way
[11:01] <mazzilliu> AFAIK
[11:01] <Arkady> If we go for write access via the API, can I have "add/remove contact", plz? ;-)
[11:01] <Arkady> mazzilliu: Yes
[11:01] <mazzilliu> that would open up a whole new can of worms
[11:01] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: thats correct, however mails are pretty essential
[11:01] <Arkady> And they were quite hard about that, too
[11:01] <PeterPowers> currently no tool can send any sort of confirmation to the user whatsoever
[11:01] <PeterPowers> for example on entry of a payment
[11:02] <mazzilliu> how would it deal with cspa charges?
[11:02] <Karbowiak> no Glee today?
[11:02] <Karbowiak> wtf
[11:02] * Skaffen reads scrollback
[11:02] <PeterPowers> should depend on what the api-user sets up
[11:02] <mazzilliu> people would expect to do more things with api write access
[11:02] <Karbowiak> Skaffen dont bother
[11:02] <mazzilliu> eventually people will want to play eve through the api
[11:02] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: its the only part that makes really sense
[11:02] <Skaffen> POS modules aren't stored against POS on the server
[11:02] <Arkady> "Change skills through eve-gate" is already high on the list
[11:03] <Skaffen> sorry, aren't stored against a pos in the database
[11:03] <Arkady> But "eve-gate uses the same API as all other users" was discussed early on. I guess people still expect that.
[11:03] <Skaffen> they're assembled on the fly in the system nodes
[11:03] <Skaffen> hence not available via the API.
[11:03] <mazzilliu> i think the idea of affecting the game through the API is something they would have to discuss pretty thoroughly.  and im not really sure its a good idea at all.  but ill bring it up in the document
[11:03] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: thing is being able to send responses to user interaction improves the services and therefor the overall experience for the users
[11:03] <Arkady> Skaffen: Getting their x/y/z coordinates in the system would be perfectly sufficient :-D
[11:03] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: i agree, however i dont see the mails really affecting the game itself
[11:04] <PeterPowers> its augmenting the given communication ways
[11:04] <Skaffen> It'd be nice if either we could get pos modules from the API, or failing that get X/Y/Z co-ordinates via the assets API and do the geometry math ourselves
[11:04] <PeterPowers> its not like sending an mail through api would make someone win or lose a battle
[11:04] <mazzilliu> x/y/z is a good idea
[11:05] <PeterPowers> (except you start flooding someone with mails and he lags out, but i think that would be a banable offense anyways =)
[11:05] <Arkady> PeterPowers: Unless someone steals an API key and fakes a mail for certain plans
[11:05] <Skaffen> mazzilliu: CCP have said at the fanfest round tables it's easily doable for a few years now
[11:05] <mazzilliu> yes, i think api key theft is a big issue that needs to be resolved before introducing any of these new features
[11:05] <PeterPowers> Arkady: you could require the oauth which is allready on the list for this
[11:06] <PeterPowers> because thats nothing that should be tied to api keys
[11:06] <Karbowiak> mazzilliu remember to bring forth ideas that make it easier for you to get api keys
[11:06] <mazzilliu> i know i am fucking around with api keys a lot, but i have a tiny fraction of what the big api sites have, and im mostly doing it because finding exploits is fun and i'd like to get them fixed afterwards
[11:06] <Karbowiak> wouldn't want you to not be able to "spy" on people
[11:06] <mazzilliu> sure thing karb buddy
[11:07] <mazzilliu> if these new features become available like evemail, etc, without the according security features, then these databases on the big sites all of a sudden become very valuable and this can lead to bad things
[11:07] <Arkady> CharacterInfo.xml.aspx will safe me so much headache, not having to store 200+ API keys anymore ...
[11:07] <Karbowiak> neat, EVE Voice will apparently be accessible via evegate next release, or the one afterwards
[11:07] <Arkady> We have about 20 API keys from people not in our alliance anymore, who never bothered to invalidate them
[11:07] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: something like evemail writing needs to be linked to authentication, api keys since given away are no authentication
[11:07] * ander has joined #eve-dev
[11:08] <mazzilliu> peter, yeah, like maybe eve gate authentication or something
[11:08] <PeterPowers> (thats something i try to explain people since ages when they start with "api-authentication-modules" for random software)
[11:08] <Karbowiak> even better, getting peoples username and password for logging into their accounts
[11:08] <Arkady> I'm rather big on the out-of-game contract thing (I run the site and I promise my users not to abuse their trust), but if I weren't, that'd allow so much fun ...
[11:08] <PeterPowers> mazzilliu: oauth through evegate sounds fair to me
[11:08] <Karbowiak> good thinking mazzilol
[11:08] <Karbowiak> makes it so much easier to steal their shit, and to spy obviously
[11:09] <mazzilliu> yes peter i brought up oauth in my document, definitely
[11:09] <PeterPowers> yeah i know, and thats as i said a requrement to make other stuff work
[11:10] <mazzilliu> oauth with malicious websites will be interesting
[11:10] <mazzilliu> i dont completely understand oauth but
[11:10] <mazzilliu> it looks like it could be really insecure
[11:11] <PeterPowers> nah
[11:11] <PeterPowers> the malicious website never gets the login data
[11:11] <PeterPowers> you login at the owner website (evegate for example)
[11:11] <mazzilliu> but they get the evemail that is being sent arent they?
[11:12] <PeterPowers> depends
[11:12] <PeterPowers> if you look at twitter for example
[11:12] <Skaffen> one thing I just remembered would be nice: gzip/deflate encoding on the API http responses
[11:12] <mazzilliu> skaffen ill add that, thanks
[11:12] <Skaffen> \o/
[11:12] <PeterPowers> they require you to explicit enable posting access
[11:13] <Skaffen> asset lists are large and take ages to grab over GSM ;)
[11:13] <mazzilliu> actually for the asset page i requested some additional parameters that let you just limit the request to contents in a particular station or region
[11:13] <mazzilliu> but gzip is good to throw in there too
[11:14] <Batolemaeus> btw
[11:14] <Batolemaeus> "By default, profiles will be set to „public", but there will be a grace period after the expansion launches where all profiles will be private"
[11:14] <PeterPowers> gotta buy food, ttyl
[11:14] <Batolemaeus> whoever thought that was a good idea needs to be punched into the groin
[11:14] <Batolemaeus> hard
[11:14] <mazzilliu> what are you talking about?
[11:15] <Candle> Batolemaeus: Source?
[11:15] <Batolemaeus> !news
[11:15] <Batolemaeus> gah, valkyrie
[11:15] <Batolemaeus> http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=812
[11:16] <Batolemaeus> Entity: [15:15:17] <Valkyrie> NameError: global name 'feedName' is not defined
[11:16] <MaZ-> entity worst tity
[11:17] <Arkady> "you can have as many as 1024 contacts"
[11:17] <Arkady> omg <3 <3 <3
[11:17] <Arkady> I need to go to fanfest and spend a bunch of beers for the recent stuff they added, really
[11:17] <Kralian> that's like ... lots and lots and lots and lots and lots!
[11:17] <Karbowiak> hahaha
[11:17] <Karbowiak> here we go with the fake mails
[11:17] <Karbowiak> nice mazzilliu :D
[11:18] <mazzilliu> karbowiak you need to be careful what you do in your freighters
[11:18] <Karbowiak> yeah, my poor freighters
[11:18] <mazzilliu> did the freighter lossmail filled with thousands of freighters get through?
[11:18] <Karbowiak> (17:17:16) (+ESCBot) Anshar lost by Karbowiak from hirr (Morsus Mihi) - in Serad(0.5)[Derelik] at 2010.10.20 14:03 http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7854975
[11:18] <Karbowiak> yep
[11:19] <Karbowiak> have to thank you tho, i dont think the board knew i was in MM
[11:19] <Arkady> Outside of 0.0, the main goals you have in wars is hitting other people. Contacts of all people in the target alliance to check who is online so you can hunt them is extremely important. Having a limit of 300 slots is just seriously annoying there.
[11:19] <mazzilliu> there was some weird thing where your mail would not show up but it switched your corp to whatever random corp was on the mail
[11:19] <Karbowiak> anyway, carry on gaying up the board
[11:19] <mazzilliu> on the killboard
[11:19] <mazzilliu> interesting
[11:19] <Batolemaeus> i'd say the folder thing was more annoying than any contact limit there
[11:19] <mazzilliu> arkady does it show wether the contacts are online or offline now?
[11:20] <Arkady> Batolemaeus: I actually managed to get by with the standings - you have neutral, -5 and -10 as "folders" currently %)
[11:20] <Arkady> mazzilliu: If you add them to the watch list, yes. You need to click on the list again to update the online state, but it works much better than it did a year ago.
[11:21] <mazzilliu> i mean, does it show that information in eve gate?
[11:22] <Arkady> Oh
[11:22] <Arkady> No clue
[11:22] <Arkady> I doubt it
[11:22] <Arkady> Only reason I use eve gate for contacts is to get the corp names, makes sorting out people who left war targets much easier
[11:22] <mazzilliu> i only use eve gate for evemail
[11:22] <mazzilliu> and scraping.... before they told me not to and i had to stop  :3
[11:23] <Arkady> :-)
[11:23] <Arkady> You could have read the EULA beforehand, you know
[11:23] <mazzilliu> it isnt in the eula
[11:23] <mazzilliu> i even sent a petition asking... they said- its not in the eula but its not allowed
[11:23] <Arkady> The "no scraping" is in some thingy about eve gate, actually
[11:24] <Arkady> Hm
[11:25] <Valkyrie> [DevBlog]: EVE Gate - Incursion and beyond - http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=812
[11:25] <Valkyrie> [News]: EVE Online Tyrannis 1.1 fifth optional patch deployment - http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4167&tid=1
[11:25] <EgotisticalElf> woot'
[11:25] <EgotisticalElf> we are going for a record (oh wait, we did 4 optional patches ago
[11:25] <Arkady> Good morning, Valkyrie!
[11:25] <Arkady> I like optional patches
[11:26] <cncfanatics> EgotisticalElf: you prefer 5 month patch cycles ? :o
[11:26] <EgotisticalElf> no, no, we've been through this before
[11:26] <EgotisticalElf> :)
[11:27] * Batolemaeus has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[11:27] <EgotisticalElf> RE: DevBlog --> New Forums in development
[11:27] <Arkady> I wonder what kind of authentication stuff they'll add to that
[11:28] <mazzilliu> im pretty sure the new forums are going to replace the old forums
[11:28] <mazzilliu> eve-o
[11:28] <Arkady> Where do I request an "alliance ignore" feature?
[11:28] <Arkady> <.<
[11:28] <mazzilliu> arent there greasemonkey scripts for that?
[11:29] <Arkady> Yes, there are
[11:29] <Arkady> Luckily!
[11:29] <mazzilliu> ignore any any
[11:30] * Ulviirala has joined #eve-dev
[11:30] <mazzilliu> ok guys i am finished with my document for now.  i am going to go afk for a while, you can read the updated version here, if you want me to add something just ping me in this channel or send me an evemail or something http://www.eveonline.com/externalLink.aspx?l=http%3A%2F%2Fmazzilliu%2Ecom%2Fapi%2Fapi%2Eodt
[11:30] <mazzilliu> oops thats a stupid link
[11:30] <Arkady> :-D
[11:30] <mazzilliu> http://mazzilliu.com/api/api.odt