#avpd #bookclub 20170318

11:14:21 G<@groke> Doru are u back
11:24:11 Doru_arabea
11:25:01 D<Doru_Araeba> Yes
11:25:06 :)
11:25:37 It's araeba BTW xD
11:25:51 Glad I could make it
11:25:55 G<@groke> Oh sorry
11:25:57 Ok guys
11:26:24 Lets start by telling if we liked or the story or not?
11:26:53 D<djaisin> (I just read it, of course at the last possible moment)
11:27:00 D<Doru_Araeba> This was a new genre for me
11:27:07 G<@groke> Good djaisin!
11:27:12 D<Doru_Araeba> I haven't read any of Murakami's works
11:27:27 G<@groke> I suppose the genre is surrealism or such
11:27:39 Magic realism? Whatever the difference is
11:27:52 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes
11:28:00 D<Doru_Araeba> No I don't think it's magic realism. Why do you think so?
11:28:09 G<@groke> Think it was my first besides his jogging book
11:28:26 Well that stone was magical
11:28:28 D<Doru_Araeba> Surrealism seems to be fitting
11:28:32 G<@groke> No other reason
11:28:46 Slope
11:28:52 S<Slope> yes
11:29:04 G<@groke> Desvoeuxensis
11:29:06 D<Doru_Araeba> I suppose. But it's intentionally left unexplained. What are your thoughs, desvoeuxensis ?
11:29:06 G<@groke> Chime
11:29:09 Comment
11:29:12 D<Doru_Araeba> *thoughts
11:29:53 C<chime> it was ok. just not particularly .. eh.. relatable to me.. same as some of his other stories i read long ago
11:30:10 G<@groke> (If i disappear abruptly its cause battery died. I'll be at my pc within 15 mins or so in that case)
11:30:23 D<Doru_Araeba> No problemo groke
11:30:37 D<desvoeuxensis> Surprisingly, I don't know how to answer that question.  I selected the story because a certain sentence stood out on the page at me, calling.  I felt we could relate to the themes, and it would be interesting to discuss with you guys.  But in many respects I disliked that the story strongly resembles other stories where a guy becomes obsessed and thus
11:30:37 hindered by a supposed truth.  As I re-read and re-read it for book club though, I started to like it more.
11:31:33 S<Slope> I didn't care for it at first because it confused me. I had to think about it, read up on it, and read it again. Now I like it tho.
11:31:39 C<chime> well, doesn't the story tell us that we shouldn't obsess over things
11:31:50 G<@groke> I liked the story, found it thought provoking enough and had a good flow
11:31:52 D<Doru_Araeba> I think it points to that, chime
11:32:00 D<desvoeuxensis> The main thing I disliked about the story was Junpei's story about the kidney.  I thought it was so boring, because, I suppose we weren't actually reading it, just having it paraphrased to us.
11:32:15 But as I started to think about the kidney more I disliked it less.
11:32:18 D<Doru_Araeba> yeah, like a meta-story
11:33:08 D<desvoeuxensis> I found it confusing too, Slope.  I kept writing stuff like "wait, why is the kidney mad?" or "who is the kidney now?"
11:33:19 G<@groke> Did it refer to kidney-stones you think?
11:33:24 S<Slope> haha desvoeuxensis
11:33:28 G<@groke> Since its both kidney and stone
11:33:36 D<Doru_Araeba> I also think the author has attempted to build hype in a lot of sections. Such as by not explaining more about the stone, Junpei's constant wondering if his current woman would be "important".
11:33:38 S<Slope> I couldn't help but make that connection, groke
11:33:44 D<desvoeuxensis> Interesting, I hadn't thought of that, groke.
11:34:01 Makes sense.  He had to pass his kidney stone, to move on with his life, I guess.
11:34:23 Through much pain lol
11:34:30 S<Slope> but unlike a Kidney stone, his Kirie stone seemed to be a positive influence on his life, inspired him to write
11:34:36 G<@groke> Another possibility is kidney as purification
11:35:03 D<Doru_Araeba> groke: And what do you think the author means to purify or symbolize as such?
11:35:23 G<@groke> Wasnt there a woman who had an affair
11:35:29 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes, and she also called him on the fact that he thought of himself as a good observer when in fact he was actually kind of self-focused
11:35:33 G<@groke> Or do i remember it wrong
11:35:49 D<desvoeuxensis> The doctor in Junpei's story is having an affair with the surgeon
11:35:54 S<Slope> perhaps she purified him of the toxic idea that he can only have 3 important women
11:36:06 G<@groke> She purified her life by stopping the affair
11:36:19 Cause it destroyed everything
11:36:22 Or sometging
11:36:36 Or if it was the stone that did it
11:36:38 D<Doru_Araeba> Interesting point, desvoeuxensis. He sees everything from his lens and how it all connects to him. This is similar to the idea expressed by lint and A7OID on disscord where it was egoistic to only see situations from just your perspective.
11:36:41 C— chime agrees with slope
11:37:29 G<@groke> Yeah that idea messed him up slope
11:37:38 D<desvoeuxensis> Or, I felt that the affair with the surgeon was analogous to Junpei's string of relationships with 'convenient women' who were easy to break up with
11:38:12 Sort of a filler relationship that undermines attempts at meaningful relationships
11:38:21 D<Doru_Araeba> He was playing it safe and that eroded the purity in each one of them.
11:38:28 He could never commit.
11:38:41 G<@groke> True
11:38:59 He was busy following the three woman ideology
11:39:07 So he missed present moment life
11:39:08 S<Slope> I thought that the affair was simply an illustration of the out-of-control nature of love and obsession, how the more one tries to control it, the more confounding and persistent it can be
11:39:08 D<Doru_Araeba> Busy? That was his life
11:40:11 Do you think that the three-women idea served to liberate Junpei/guide him or did it serve to illustrate your point, Slope
11:40:12 ?
11:40:19 G<@groke> Out of control is a theme i think yeah
11:41:09 S<Slope> I think that the 3 women idea was the opposite of liberating, and that he needed to be liberated from it and learn to give love without such reservations or concerns
11:41:10 G<@groke> The rope walker symbolized embracing uncertainty and letting go of control (she refused life line)
11:41:56 D<Doru_Araeba> Slope: Yep. But the rope walker's audacity seems a tad unrealistic.
11:42:11 G<@groke> Yup
11:42:26 D<Doru_Araeba> Seems scripted to fit the plot.
11:42:34 G<@groke> Chime djaisin talk more
11:43:56 S<Slope> I suppose in retrospect, the character was a bit contrived, but it didn't bother me.
11:44:02 C<chime> beyond the theme of "don't fear the end so much that you become anxious of beginnings" it just didn't tell me much
11:44:05 G<@groke> Ill be back in  5 min.. Keep chattin
11:45:00 D<desvoeuxensis> What I find interesting about the 3 woman idea is that Junpei keeps describing it as narrowing the possibilities life has to offer him.  It's impossible to know what it meant to Junpei's father, but I assume he meant that Junpei should prioritize meaningful relationships and value them, and not waste his life on women that didn't really move him.  But what
11:45:00 Junpei takes away from it is this narrowing of his world.  Like every time he screws up, the things life is going to offer him becomes permanently diminished.
11:45:23 I hear this theme, not just in this story, but in life, from people, a lot.
11:45:42 That every time they make a mistake, they feel their life becoming smaller.
11:45:51 As though you are getting cornered by your actions.
11:45:53 D<Doru_Araeba> Yeah, it's quite evident that he has a subverted idea of what his father wished to convey.
11:46:07 S<Slope> I think that's a deep and important theme tho, chime. The conveyance of that idea alone seems like enough to justify a short story.
11:46:29 I agree, desvoeuxensis
11:46:36 D<Doru_Araeba> "Fear of failure"
11:46:55 You've already lost the battle when you don't try
11:47:22 C<chime> well, maybe i'm too familiar with that particular issue already, hah
11:47:51 S<Slope> reminds me of that Sylvia Plath poem about lost opportunities
11:47:52 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes, it could be that I chose a story that was a little too close to home to be interesting lol ;)
11:47:59 S<Slope> http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7511-i-saw-my-life-branching-out-before-me-like-the
11:48:45 D<Doru_Araeba> desvoeuxensis: But you can never tell beforehand what peopel are going to take from it. Sort of like how Junpei interpreted his father's (guidance? delcation??)
11:48:49 *declaration
11:48:51 D<desvoeuxensis> That's a good reference, Slope
11:49:08 That's true, Doru_Araeba :)
11:49:49 When I was reading up on Murakami and music, I read this piece he wrote about how he learned everything he knew about writing from music
11:50:06 And in the story too, Kirie talks about Junpei's writing as having good balance, like music should have good balance
11:50:16 I started to think about what a writer could learn from music
11:50:29 And I came to appreciate Murakami more in this story because he repeats refrains over and over
11:50:35 Looping back with his references
11:50:50 This was initially what confused me a lot, because I couldn't tell "who was the kidney" etc
11:51:11 S<Slope> that's a nice observation
11:51:13 D<desvoeuxensis> But then I realized that he meant to layer ideas, so there wasn't one answer but many similarities
11:51:34 S<Slope> variations on a theme
11:51:39 D<Doru_Araeba> Hmm, yes Slope
11:51:41 D<desvoeuxensis> Exactly!
11:51:46 D<Doru_Araeba> I think you've got it
11:51:57 D<desvoeuxensis> Murakami is into Jazz, so his writing is a mixture of repeating rephrases and improvisational wildness
11:52:09 D<Doru_Araeba> He's trying to tell us one thing by using multiple situations
11:52:30 D<desvoeuxensis> That's why you get this feeling of him saying the same thing over and over again, but also the feeling that he hasn't completely said some things - they just kind of wandered for a bit
11:52:49 S<Slope> like two mirrors facing eachother- someone said
11:52:53 D<Doru_Araeba> Haha
11:52:55 Who>
11:52:56 ?
11:52:58 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes
11:53:25 D<Doru_Araeba> Jazz has a few "standards" which are like basic tunes, upon which you improvise
11:54:03 D<desvoeuxensis> Murakami is also like that.  In his body of work as a whole.  He talks about the same themes over and over again.  Just holding them up in a different light each time.
11:54:08 D<Doru_Araeba> He seems to be doing something similar with the layers. But I also feel Kirie's departure rather abrubt. What do you think?
11:54:24 I get that it's a short story, but still
11:54:47 D<desvoeuxensis> Yeah, that bothered me.  The way she kept pushing at him to change made me feel like she was investing in him, even though she told him from the beginning their relationship couldn't be serious.
11:54:50 S<Slope> I think it fit into the timeline of the short story. As much of kirie's character and events, it could be accused of being contrived
11:55:15 G<@groke> test
11:55:19 D<desvoeuxensis> Hi groke
11:55:21 D<Doru_Araeba> Yes
11:55:23 Hi groke
11:55:25 G<@groke> =]
11:55:32 G— @groke reads the backlog
11:55:45 D<Doru_Araeba> desvoeuxensis: Two ideas that seem paradoxical
11:56:20 Anything to add, groke?
11:56:28 dj??
11:56:42 D<desvoeuxensis> I guess she left abruptly the way the kidney left abruptly - she had shaken him up enough that she knew he was going to change and she didn't have to stick around and see
11:56:57 S<Slope> Perhaps her investment in him without hope of return, speaks exactly to the central theme of selfless love without expectation
11:57:12 D<Doru_Araeba> Wow
11:57:21 G<@groke> you all have had made great points Doru_Araeba
11:57:23 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes, I think that's right, Slope
11:57:39 G<@groke> i made notes but unfortunately i forgot to save them, lol.. so theyre gone
11:57:59 D<desvoeuxensis> She saw love as more like the wind - acceptance and support - not necessarily a destination
11:58:15 S<Slope> throw your notes to the wind, groke! you cannot control this kidney shaped book club!
11:58:23 D<Doru_Araeba> Selfless love? Is that what also prompts the intern to stop seeing the surgeon?
11:58:25 D<desvoeuxensis> Bahahaha
11:58:47 D<Doru_Araeba> Slope: Clever clever ;P
11:58:55 D<desvoeuxensis> internist*
11:59:01 D<Doru_Araeba> Oh sorry
11:59:01 S<Slope> I dont know, Doru. That is a good question tho.
11:59:13 What did stop that affair?
11:59:34 D<Doru_Araeba> des: Yes internist
11:59:53 Not focusing on the spelling sorry
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12:01:01 D<Doru_Araeba> Slope: From what remember, I think she just becomes so absorbed in the stone that everything else ceases to matter.
12:01:07 D<desvoeuxensis> Haha.  I was just glad that you reminded me she was an internist.  I keep calling her doctor b/c I forgot exactly what she was.  But internist is I guess relevant b/c kidney.  But it might also have meaning.
12:01:08 D<Doru_Araeba> *I remember
12:01:20 D<desvoeuxensis> She felt the kidney expressed her own inner voice, trying to get her to do something, after all.
12:01:29 D<Doru_Araeba> Really?
12:01:35 D<desvoeuxensis> So the kidney represents what is inside you, the voice within.
12:01:36 D<Doru_Araeba> She actually stopped doing anything
12:01:55 I think
12:02:00 D<desvoeuxensis> She is an internist so she should understand what is within but she is blind to it.  Junpei claims that writers are good observers, but he is a bad observer.
12:02:25 S<Slope> ^ oo good catch
12:02:52 D<Doru_Araeba> Another "layer" of thought
12:03:47 I am not clear on how good the stone finally ends up being for her
12:04:47 Though she is able to let go in the end, it almost consumes her
12:05:39 D<desvoeuxensis> I guess it depends on whether you are looking at the kidney from perspective-1 which is that it is like the 3-woman theory.  Or if you are looking at it from perspective-2, which is that it is like Kirie nudging Junpei towards change.
12:06:05 I think it represents both a force of destruction and a force of change
12:06:19 D<Doru_Araeba> So a catharsis?
12:06:50 D<desvoeuxensis> I guess the story is saying that ideas can be good or bad, it all depends on what you do with them
12:06:51 S<Slope> yes. like most things, it did not exist to exert a positive or negative force on any person. It was merely a force of nature to be experienced.
12:06:57 D<desvoeuxensis> Where they cause you to act, or whether they cause you to not-act
12:07:11 Well said, Slope
12:07:17 That was also in my head
12:07:26 A sort of neutrality
12:07:52 And accepting things for whatever they are, like Kirie and the wind on the tightrope
12:08:02 That homewrecking wind
12:08:05 ;)
12:08:23 S<Slope> haha
12:08:53 What could be more futile that fighting against the wind? Or a stone?
12:09:01 D<desvoeuxensis> Exactly
12:09:49 S<Slope> neither can you look to such things to serve your purposes or propel you in some desired direction
12:10:25 D<Doru_Araeba> Uncontrollable
12:11:26 D<desvoeuxensis> Even though I can't say I super enjoyed the whole story-within-a-story-within-a-story thing,  one thing I enjoyed about Murakami writing a story about an author writing a story, is his comparison between the ease with which you can write short stories, and the commitment and scariness of writing a Novel.  Kirie nudges Junpei away from short stories and
12:11:26 towards novels, and also away from short relationships and towards being able to have a more risky and deep love
12:12:08 Although Murakami himself alternates between writing a novel, and publishing a book of short stories
12:12:16 So perhaps we just learned something about his love life ;P
12:12:22 S<Slope> interesting :)
12:12:22 D<desvoeuxensis> jk
12:12:26 D<Doru_Araeba> xD
12:12:46 ⇐ ArmadilloReborn quit (~uid188781@Rizon-26EC08BA.tooting.irccloud.com) Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
12:12:58 G<@groke> desvoeuxensis, isnt story within stories a theme in all his stuff?
12:13:11 that one story i read by mistake had something similar
12:13:30 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes, I feel it is.  But I didn't like the autobiographical thing so much
12:13:36 I never do, not just with Murakami
12:13:38 D<Doru_Araeba> Ohh, so that's why there's that N.B.
12:13:46 D<desvoeuxensis> It's like TV shows that are about being in Hollywood
12:13:53 D<Doru_Araeba> You were the guinea pig haha
12:14:00 D<desvoeuxensis> It makes sense that they exist but I find them kind of annoying
12:14:16 G<@groke> yeah for sure
12:14:23 D<Doru_Araeba> :/
12:14:26 G<@groke> yup Doru_Araeba lol
12:14:31 D<Doru_Araeba> I'm more confused than ever now
12:14:44 S<Slope> What confuses you?
12:14:58 D<Doru_Araeba> I still don't see where the author was going from all of this.
12:15:04 *or trying to go
12:15:14 G<@groke> i wonder if he's inspired by Escher the painter
12:15:20 D<Doru_Araeba> We have a few theories
12:15:28 G<@groke> who does drawings within drawings
12:16:15 D<Doru_Araeba> Somehow I consider the kidney-stone to be insignificant
12:16:34 Change usually comes from the inside
12:16:37 D<desvoeuxensis> Yeah I get that Escher feeling, too, groke
12:16:57 Also explains my confused feeling on what the intended perspective is
12:17:06 D<Doru_Araeba> I'm pretty sure the internist had been considering leaving the surgeon anyway
12:17:13 Though it isn't mentioned
12:17:18 D<desvoeuxensis> With Murakami you always feel like: wait, what am I supposed to be looking at?
12:17:26 D<Doru_Araeba> Exatly
12:17:29 Exactly
12:17:44 S<Slope> That's a feeling often evoked by surrealists
12:18:04 Dali also liked to play with images in both negative and positive space, illusions and such
12:18:27 D<Doru_Araeba> And Junpei had already considered leaving the thrall of the three-women theory
12:18:35 once before
12:18:52 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes, he also makes me feel like Dali.  What is this a picture of exactly and why?
12:18:55 D<Doru_Araeba> I don't know if this is surrealistic or unrealistic
12:18:59 D<desvoeuxensis> Why did you make this thing melt?
12:19:16 S<Slope> https://creators-images.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/no-slug/5017fa11eb93e732983c58ded0c9bc1e.jpg
12:19:37 D<desvoeuxensis> Nice Slope
12:19:39 D<Doru_Araeba> desvoeuxensis: Are you talking to me? If so, I'm afraid I didn't understand
12:20:19 D<desvoeuxensis> I was talking about the similarity between Murakami's style and surrealist art
12:20:30 D<Doru_Araeba> The borders are more accentuated towards the left
12:20:49 That's how a line has been drawn between the real and surreak
12:20:52 surreal
12:21:08 (No pun intended)
12:21:33 So is this how we sum it up?
12:21:43 G<@groke> i think so
12:21:47 D<desvoeuxensis> Although I am also thinking about your points about the kidney, Doru_Araeba.  It is certainly the one part of the story that eludes me.  What the kidney was trying to tell the doctor, and whether I am overthinking it or not.  I feel like a page was missing out of Junpei's story.
12:22:35 S<Slope> I just think the kidney represents uncontrollable, un-cast-awayable feelings
12:22:41 D<Doru_Araeba> Intriguing idea. Junpei also mentions that his stories got affected if he spoke of them to someone. Kirie has most definitely worked her influence into it all.
12:22:49 *get affected
12:22:53 D<desvoeuxensis> That's a good way of putting it, Slope.
12:23:30 S<Slope> also the futility of fighting against nature
12:23:44 D<Doru_Araeba> Also, being scientifically educated, why could she simply not ignore it?
12:23:45 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes, that's true.  By nudging the story, she nudges Junpei towards his truth.
12:24:27 D<Doru_Araeba> There's a decided feel of spirtuality tossed into the mix
12:24:54 An "aura" cast by the stone
12:26:11 Alternatively, it could simply be the embodiment of the internist's inner thoughts
12:26:29 D<desvoeuxensis> Well that's what she thinks anyway
12:26:47 D<Doru_Araeba> So is that literally her being obsessed by herself
12:26:47 D<desvoeuxensis> Usually Murakami allows himself a bit more magic in his stories
12:27:04 D<Doru_Araeba> ?
12:27:05 D<desvoeuxensis> But the kidney is his only fantastical device here
12:27:06 D<Doru_Araeba> I see
12:27:20 desvoeuxensis: How about Kirie
12:27:38 "fantastical" and ephemeral person
12:27:49 G<@groke> (i'll have dinner.. keep talking ^_^ )
12:27:56 D<desvoeuxensis> Well I meant actually magic-magic.  Although I agree, Kirie's character is a little bigger-than-life.
12:28:05 a lot*
12:28:16 She's a bit annoying that way
12:28:26 It's like, did you need to go that far, Murakami?
12:28:29 A tight-rope walker?
12:28:35 S<Slope> I think kirie is the hero of the story in that she finds joy and fulfillment in surrendering, with balance- not neurosis, to the precarious whims of life and nature.
12:28:37 D<desvoeuxensis> You didn't think we could get a more subtle idea?
12:29:20 D<Doru_Araeba> Haha des
12:29:34 D<desvoeuxensis> Well she certainly represents an opposite to Junpei.
12:29:48 D<Doru_Araeba> Slope: Right, and Junpei is the fettered victim
12:30:09 S<Slope> well, the story was confounding enough on its own. I'm kind of thankful for some of the more obvious- tho somewhat contrived themes. They acted as guideposts on an otherwise tangled journey. Anything less obvious might have made the story incomprehensible.
12:30:27 D<desvoeuxensis> That is very true, Slope lol
12:30:36 D<Doru_Araeba> I agree as well.
12:30:51 D<desvoeuxensis> I guess that is how Murakami keeps his balance as a writer.  Half surrealist improv.  And half heavy-handed recurring jazz themes.
12:31:26 Guideposts is the exact right word
12:32:25 D<Doru_Araeba> Though what path they were guiding us to is no more than hinted at.
12:33:27 S<Slope> more of a fun, multi pronged footpath through the forest, than a linear point a to point b jog.
12:33:34 D<desvoeuxensis> Here is a quote I liked from an article I read about him describing how his writing is like music:
12:33:38 One of my all-time favorite jazz pianists is Thelonious Monk. Once, when someone asked him how he managed to get a certain special sound out of the piano, Monk pointed to the keyboard and said: “It can’t be any new note. When you look at the keyboard, all the notes are there already. But if you mean a note enough, it will sound different. You got to pick
12:33:38 the notes you really mean!”
12:34:13 D<Doru_Araeba> Slope: I would agree
12:34:28 Yesss, Thelonius Monk. Have you heard of Chick Corea?
12:35:01 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes, I went through a bit of a jazz-learning phase in college.  Although I'm no expert.
12:35:10 They say Murakami has around 10,000 jazz records lol
12:35:25 Perhaps I should be listening to jazz right now
12:35:58 D<Doru_Araeba> Though I would disagree on a note sounding different. My opinion is that it's your interpretation of the environment as well the pianist's demeanour than the sound per se that affects your aural experience.
12:36:41 Logically speaking, a well-tuned piano is supposed to consistently produce the same frequencies.
12:37:47 Well, that was a good start, I'd say, though we could have done with some increased participation.
12:38:33 D<desvoeuxensis> Well, yes.  But perhaps the next story will be more relatable to different people.
12:38:58 D<Doru_Araeba> Possibly
12:39:09 D<desvoeuxensis> Who is picking again?  I keep forgetting.
12:39:43 ⇐ jfoifs quit (~jfoifs@gothic.industrial) Quit: All that you've left, you've left for someone...
12:41:23 S<Slope> fwiw I enjoyed the story (tho not at first) and think it was an excellent peice for discussion. Good job, desvoeuxensis
12:41:25 D<Doru_Araeba> Rogell is, I think
12:41:32 =)
12:41:45 Something fresh for me
12:42:07 D<desvoeuxensis> Thanks guys.
12:42:15 S<Slope> and thank you to groke for initiating and organizing :)
12:42:40 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes all hail our savior, groke.
12:42:43 S— Slope clears the crepe-plates, takes away the empty tea cups
12:42:57 D<Doru_Araeba> Cheers, book groke!
12:43:05 D<desvoeuxensis> I enjoyed discussing this with you guys very much. :)
12:43:38 D<Doru_Araeba> Moi trois, folks. :)
12:44:13 D<desvoeuxensis> Now I'm hungry for crepes!
12:44:28 D— Doru_Araeba giggles.
12:52:35 G<@groke> great
12:52:53 thanks everyone for great discussion =]
12:52:54 D<Doru_Araeba> We hope so too, grokey