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77 29Topic for #ubuntu-meeting 29set by meetingology!meetingolo@ubuntu/bot/meetingology 29at Thu Mar  7 22:15:14 2013
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14 18<mhall119>#startmeeting Ubuntu TV discussion
14 18<meetingology>Meeting started Fri Mar  8 18:01:55 2013 UTC.  The chair is mhall119. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
15 18<meetingology>Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
15 22*meetingology has changed the topic to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu TV discussion Meeting | Current topic:
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48 18<mhall119>hi everybody, who is here for the Ubuntu TV meeting?
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63 18<jhodapp>mhall119, let's try now :)
81 18<YoBoY>hi mhall119, here but just to follow (not participating :p)
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15 31<pinguy>30YoBoY, same here. Would like to see how this is handled
47 18<_danialjose>just to watch
50 18<mhall119>I'm going to give a few more minutes, I hope some of the TV community guys can make it
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84 18<jhodapp>hey tgm4883
92 18<tgm4883>o/
21 31<pinguy>30Doesn't seem like much work has been done to Ubuntu TV for awhile now: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntutv-dev-team/ubuntutv/trunk/files
32 31<pinguy>30Would be nice to see how far it has come
64 18<mhall119>ok, I'm going to get started with some of the back story
69 18<mhall119>#topic History
69 22*meetingology has changed the topic to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu TV discussion Meeting | Current topic:  History
79 18<tgm4883>do we have more people here than normal?
94 18<mhall119>tgm4883: yeah, I put out a call for more discussion
19 18<mhall119>so, around this time last year Canonical debuted the Ubuntu TV at CES, and it was a pretty big hit
44 18<mhall119>at the time, the TV UI was based on the Unity 2D code
52 18<mhall119>which in early 2012 was still actively developed
82 18<tgm4883>quick correction, it was uds-P
83 18<mhall119>we opened up all of the source code that had been worked on, and recruited interested developers from the community to participate in it's development
100 18<mhall119>tgm4883: what was?
107 18<tgm4883>mhall119, oh wait, nm, I misread what you said
109 18<tgm4883>carry on
111 18<mhall119>ok
157 18<mhall119>so by this time last year the TV was open and we were getting great contributors like tgm4883 and bobweaver on board
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211 18<mhall119>then, at UDS-Q, there was a decision made by the Unity team that actively developing 2 separate Unity codebases (2D and 3D) was too much
238 18<mhall119>and a big dicussion followed which ultimately resulted in Unity 3D being chosen
260 18<mhall119>I wasnt a part of those conversations, so I can't tell you what the arguments were either way
08 18<mhall119>so, with Unity 2D no longer being actively developed, we had to shift Ubuntu TV on to Nux and the Compiz plugin that powers Unity 3D
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82 18<mhall119>and it wasn't long after that when the Canonical engineers who had been working on the multi-media functionality for the TV were also tasked with getting that same multi-media functionality working on the new Phone/Tablet codebase
410 18<mhall119>so for several months after we had started the transition to Unity 3D, we didn't have Canonical resources to help
439 18<mhall119>and despite a large amount of effort from bobweaver, porting it from Qt (which he was familiar with) to Nux (which he wasn't) was no simple task
485 18<mhall119>after months of this, those of us inside Canonical were frustrated that we couldn't contribute, and concerned that our absence was holding back to the community developers
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523 18<mhall119>so jhodapp and I spent some time gathering up all the internal documentation about design and implementation details that we could, and worked to get approval to open them up to the community
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562 18<mhall119>at this point, we were pretty much "throwing it over the wall", not because we wanted to, but because if we didn't it wouldn't get over the wall at all
598 18<mr_man>what does throwing it over the wall mean ?
17 22*shadeslayer_ is now known as shadeslayer
19 18<mhall119>mr_man: it's a common term for making something open source but not supporting the community around it
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41 18<mhall119>like Google does with Android, or Sun/Oracle was known to do with their open source projects
45 18<mr_man>sounds like the last year
65 18<mr_man>cool so Ubuntu is droping the tv ?
67 31<pinguy>30mr_man, in-house code getting out to the public
73 18<mhall119>Now, even though the phone shell was being written in Qt/QML at this time, as far as everybody inside Canonical knew the future was still Unity 3D, and the expectation was that the phone shell would eventually be integrated into Unity 3D as well
81 18<mhall119>mr_man: no, this is the back story
713 18<mhall119>so for a long time we kept encouraging the community TV hackers to port to Unity 3D, because as far as *we* knew, that was the right direction to take it
733 18<mr_man>so you all got community members to do it ?
744 18<mhall119>mr_man: yes
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756 18<mr_man>port to 3d ? that is or are you going to tell the to do that then change your mind 5 times
768 18<mr_man>will is on board with this ?
772 18<mhall119>and while tgm4883 made good progress on a MythTV lens/scope that didn't depend on the UI toolkit, bobweaver was still struggling to make heads or tails of Nux and Compiz
775 18*tgm4883 encourages mr_man to hold his questions until the end of the history section
790 18<mhall119>mr_man: I'm explaining what happened, not what is going to happen
795 18<mr_man>sorry
839 18<mr_man>I thought that bobweaver quit because of many many reasons
848 18<tgm4883>perhaps we should open the second channel for questions?
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858 18<mhall119>mr_man: I'll get to some of that in a bit
872 18<mhall119>finally, as the phone's releasing was approaching, the conversation inside Canonical went back to the Unity 2D vs. Unity 3D debate, and after proving how quickly and efficiently the Unity shell could be done in Qt/QML, the decision was reversed
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914 31<pinguy>30a lack of communication seems to be the problem. You thought Unity 2d was dead so strating working on gettting Ubuntu TV working on Compiz, only to find out that up-stream was now using qt/Unity-2D.
927 18<mhall119>which put us in a difficult position, we weren't allowed to talk about the phone before it was announced, but we didn't want to waste developer's time either
950 21<mr_man>21pinguy:  that is not true pm me if yyou want the truth
984 22*mr_man is now known as bobweaver
985 18<mhall119>but we did discretely let bobweaver know that the debate had restarted, and there was a distinct possibility that Unity 2D, or at least a Qt/QML version of Unity, would become the new target
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7014 18<bobweaver>really you did
7089 18<mhall119>Which brings us to where we are now, we have an old Unity 2D codebase, some regretably wasted time and effort on Unity 3D porting, and a new Qt/QML foundating that we want to converge all of our devices around
7112 18<mhall119>so, that's the history
7119 18<mhall119>#topic Future
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7149 18<bobweaver>maybe I should say my side of the history as it was me that wasted 3 months or more of programming
7168 31<pinguy>30bobweaver, I think thats only fair
7178 18<mhall119>so we wasted a lot of development time, and burned through a non-significant amount of developer good will, but we still want to see an Ubuntu TV, and we still want it to be a community project
7205 18<mhall119>bobweaver: go ahead
7206 18<tgm4883>#topic alternate history, community edition
7214 18<mhall119>#topic more history
7214 22*meetingology has changed the topic to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu TV discussion Meeting | Current topic:  more history
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7226 18<mhall119>tgm4883: feel free to add your input as well
7238 18<bobweaver>what really happened . after the last non virtual uds I was told o make nux I was also told that 3 times before then I was told back to 2d then back to this then back to that. It seems like there needs to be better leadership
7261 18<bobweaver>so it was a flip flop falure
7276 18<jhodapp>bobweaver, nobody will argue with that point I think
7283 18<bobweaver>meaning that I was lead along a fake road
7324 18<bobweaver>this is no one fault but mine
7358 18<bobweaver>but for the people in the future I do not want to see them have the same thing happen to them. so in other words you all need better leadership
7377 31<pinguy>30bobweaver, was it ever at the back of your mind this may happen? Qt is really the only way to make apps fully cross platform. Compiz isn't really that great for this. From an outsider looking in. Ubuntu TV always seemed it was being made to work on many devices.
7400 18<bobweaver>I knew that it was always going to be qt
7401 21<mhall119>21pinguy: sure, he was pushing us to just stick with Qt/QML the whole time
7411 18<mhall119>he was a constant advocate for it
7429 21<bobweaver>21I fought that for months pinguy  the point is I do not want to see you all have something like this happen to the next bobweaver
7445 18<mhall119>tgm4883: do you have anything you want to add?
7471 18<tgm4883>just that I'm available for questions
7476 18<tgm4883>oh
7485 18<bobweaver>btw I have ubunntu tv running on my nexus 7
7493 18<mhall119>really? that's awesome
7499 18<tgm4883>and that for all the help i've asked for (testing wise), nobody has actually come though
7537 18<mhall119>are we ready to talk about the future now?
7590 18<ogra_>bobweaver, how is the signal reception ? :P
7596 18<bobweaver>listen you all are never going to get any where fighting about the code base. in this world it seems like it is about hardware and that is it. until the right people get the right tools it is not going to work
7603 31<pinguy>30tgm4883, its a shame you didn't have that many testers. You probably could of done with the project being more open
7612 18<bobweaver>why build something that is for the desktop when it is going on a tv
7625 18<bobweaver>people have said that on the channel before
7627 21<tgm4883>21pinguy, the stuff I need testing doesn't have anything to do with the ubuntu tv code
7629 21<mhall119>21pinguy: the project was open, tgm4883 and bobweaver are both community contributors
7643 18<mhall119>alright
7645 18<tgm4883>so let me add a little here, what I actually am doing
7668 18<tgm4883>I'm a Mythbuntu developer. What I bring to the table is the Ubuntu TV integration with a MythTV backend
7684 18<tgm4883>This is done via Unity scopes, so it works on any platform that runs Unity
7691 18<bobweaver>ogra_:  I am using brodcom java drivers
7702 18<tgm4883>The requests I've had for testing are 2 things
7725 18<tgm4883>1) Testing the scopes. This admittedly is a little more difficult, as it requires you to have a MythTV backend in your environment
7753 18<tgm4883>2) Testing of the MythTV backend quick start guide I wrote. This is far easier for people to test, as you can do it in a VM
7783 18<mhall119>https://docs.google.com/document/d/19knOlqz8cV5_8VQ1tCvEd8tjEk6U50KsSOJCROR60o4/edit?usp=sharing
7790 18<tgm4883>Ironically, the few people that have tested the scope have given me feedback. The people that said they would test the QSG haven't given me any feedback yet
7815 18<tgm4883>Comments are open on the QSG, which is where I'm looking for them
7819 18<mhall119>I'm guilty of that, it's still on my task list, but I've been quite behind lately
7824 18<bobweaver>tgm4883:  what is QSG?
7831 18<mhall119>Quick Start Guide
7832 18<tgm4883>Quick Start Guide
7834 18<mhall119>the link I pasted above
7849 18<tgm4883>The link above is the long version, that includes every screen in the backend setup
7869 18<tgm4883>I would prefer to ship the smaller version, but it skips parts that aren't changed and may be more confusing
7905 18<tgm4883>Short version https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eGJ8gGtRqFxQ8xVWlR6XgP6FAFJEVZ-Ntq_TT8XhWEs/edit?usp=sharing
7907 18<bobweaver>tgm4883:  I will read the guide and get back to you
7927 18<mhall119>tgm4883: bobweaver: I'd like to start talking about where we go from here, since we only have 20 minutes left
7927 18<tgm4883>ok
7935 18<tgm4883>mhall119, sounds good
7941 18<mhall119>#topic Future
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7962 18<mhall119>alright, so now that everybody has the brief history of the TV project, I want to know how we progress from here
7994 18<mhall119>we still want a TV formfactor of Unity, and we still (miraculously) have community interest in it
8047 18<bobweaver>if it is going to be part of the phablet then you all should just tell them to do it they wrote the stuff to start with
8066 18<mhall119>the goal is to have it all in one codebase
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8076 18<mhall119>which we're evidently calling "Unity Next"
8082 18<bobweaver>I think that they are re-writing libunity no one can do anything till then
8091 18<mhall119>which will start with the phablet code, and add in desktop and TV formfactors
8094 18<tgm4883>I think "Unity Next" developers need to develop the interface
8106 18<bobweaver>that is a HUGE trouble that there not communicating between teams that is why I am out
8111 31<pinguy>30I hate to be the bad guy here, but Ubuntu TV is really only going to work with Ubuntu Touch. In the last 4 months XBMC has really come into its own.
8114 18<bobweaver>well that and many many other reasons
8152 21<tgm4883>21pinguy, Unity brings more to the table than XBMC
8159 21<bobweaver>21pinguy:  you wath live tv with xbmc ?
8173 31<pinguy>30bobweaver, yes. It was part of the last release
8174 18<mhall119>tgm4883: the "Unity Next" developers in Canonical have a short window to both polish the phablet UI for potential OEM partners, *and* port the desktop by 13.10 time-frame
8176 18<bobweaver>also manage all your apps
8193 31<pinguy>30bobweaver, the android version also manages all of your apps
8207 18<tgm4883>mhall119, it makes more sense for the Unity developers to develop the new layouts
8208 18<mhall119>if we wait for Canonical developers to port the TV UI, it's going to take a while
8218 18<jhodapp>bobweaver, that's not true, it's just Qt5 and QML so what exactly do you think you need to wait on from the unity devs?
8242 21<bobweaver>21pinguy:  so then you should use it and stop telling people what they should or should not do. you know that I could have xbmc in the dash right
8250 18<bobweaver>because there is qtmediahub
8263 18<mhall119>tgm4883: they will be writing the code to support adding and switching to different formfacts, but I doubt they'll be able to port the TV UI unless we wait unti the end of this year
8268 18<bobweaver>jhodapp:  they are re-writing unity
8274 18<bobweaver>libunity I should say
8275 18<mhall119>and I really don't want to wait another year on this
8281 18<tgm4883>This is OT, but XBMC doesn't have TV capabilities built in. They farm it out and use PVR backends (such as MythTV)
8305 18<mhall119>bobweaver: yes, the libunity APIs are going to be changing, but the TV layout and what data it will need shouldn't be
8325 18<jhodapp>bobweaver, sure, but we have a phablet UI today right? what's the difference between having the TV UI today and getting it working, vs the phablet one that already works?
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8342 18<bobweaver>Umm... that is not possible it listens to libunity it uses nux all of that
8360 18<tgm4883>Can't we just blow up the tablet interface and use that for TV?
8362 18<mhall119>bobweaver: the converged codebase will all be on the same libunity API
8373 18<mhall119>tgm4883: that would be a good place ot start I think
8385 18<bobweaver>the phablet is not using all the parts of unity also the main thing would be dconf-qt that right there is huge
8387 18<mhall119>but the tablet is still geared to touch input
8391 18<jhodapp>tgm4883, yes, I think that's a good place to start too
8408 18<tgm4883>mhall119, IMHO, the work that we need to do is ensure that you can control the interface via remote control
8414 18<bobweaver>also qx11info  as you all are making new server one can not do anything that is why I made into standalone app that runs on android
8427 18<mhall119>ok, things are starting to fall apart into technical implementation here, I'd like to keep this more high-level
8442 18<tgm4883>well, that and ensure you can use it from 10' away, but I think that is going to deal more with font sizes
8451 18<bobweaver>mhall119:  you ant tell people to waste there time that is not fair to them
8453 18<tgm4883>mhall119, +1
8455 18<bobweaver>bottom line ^^
8456 18<mhall119>so let's re-cap what we have and what we don't
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8491 18<bobweaver>spinning wheels in the mud just gets you more stuck
8495 18<mhall119>we have the phablet codebase, we have a design spec for the TV interface, we have some existing Qt4/QML1 code that may or may not be reusable
8527 18<mhall119>we don't have: Canonical resources devoted exclusively to porting TV to the new codebase
8538 18<bobweaver>mhall119:  have you looked at the code you can not use it
8553 18<mhall119>bobweaver: I haven't but I'm not as technically proficient as you when it comes to code
8556 18<tgm4883>mhall119, perhaps a better angle would be to list all the needs (even stuff currently done), then list what is done
8571 18<bobweaver>esp because of the things that are happening with the server and libunity you are telling people to waste there time
8571 18<mhall119>tgm4883: ok
8576 18<tgm4883>eg. what is needed to ship something the community would deem "Ubuntu TV"
8599 18<mhall119>* We need the converged Unity foundation to support multiple formfactors (Canonical resources are workign on this, it doesn't exist yet)
8624 18<bobweaver>libhbris ??
8633 18<mhall119>* We need a stable set of APIs for building the interface (libunity, indicator services, hud services, etc)
8634 18<bobweaver>er wrong place so sorry
8646 18<mhall119>some of that exists, some doesn't
8651 18<bobweaver>phablet has almost all that ^^
8656 18<mhall119>Canonical resources have already been allocated to it
8676 18<mhall119>bobweaver: on the surface yes, I don't know how much is mocked and how much is subject to change
8690 18<mhall119>at the very least, the phablet's use of libunity is going to change when libunity changes
8697 18<tgm4883>for lack of a better way to mark those, I'm going to put those as actions
8703 18<bobweaver>but you all are digging your selfs deeper until the things that I have stated change then nothing can be done. OH HOW I whis that I could have talked about this at UDS
8707 18<mhall119>tgm4883: good idea
8721 18<mhall119>#action * We need the converged Unity foundation to support multiple formfactors (Canonical resources are workign on this, it doesn't exist yet)
8721 18<meetingology>ACTION: * We need the converged Unity foundation to support multiple formfactors (Canonical resources are workign on this, it doesn't exist yet)
8742 18<mhall119>#action * We need a stable set of APIs for building the interface (libunity, indicator services, hud services, etc) Canonical resources are already allocated to this
8743 18<meetingology>ACTION: * We need a stable set of APIs for building the interface (libunity, indicator services, hud services, etc) Canonical resources are already allocated to this
8764 18<bobweaver>you all need to know how this is going to work on mer
8770 18<bobweaver>Woops I mean mir
<tgm4883>IMO, it's way to early to think about mir
<mhall119>#action we need to re-create the TV shell layout and components on top of Unity Next
<meetingology>ACTION: we need to re-create the TV shell layout and components on top of Unity Next
<tgm4883>mhall119, we need remote control functionality of Unity Next
<mhall119>bobweaver: that's something that should be done in the common Unity Next code, there shouldn't be anything TV specific about it
<jhodapp>tgm4883, agreed
<bobweaver>if that is action then you are going to need all the libs that are used some are not open as of yet
<tgm4883>mhall119, I'm leaving you to add the actions so we don't duplicate them
<mhall119>#action We need Remote control/navigation in the TV shell
<meetingology>ACTION: We need Remote control/navigation in the TV shell
<bobweaver>mhall119:  what the heck are you talking about
<tgm4883>mhall119, we need a TV backend
<bobweaver>that is bull
<mhall119>*action We need to make sure that all of the libs necessary to write apps and the shell are available and open source
<bobweaver>how are you going to handle windowing how are you going to handle spread ect ect
<bobweaver>alt+tab so many things
<jhodapp>bobweaver, don't get buried in the details for now
<mhall119>*action we need to specify a data model for passing TV data between Scopes and the Shell
<bobweaver>this was all done on X before
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<bobweaver>with qx11info
<mhall119>#action We need to make sure that all of the libs necessary to write apps and the shell are available and open source
<meetingology>ACTION: We need to make sure that all of the libs necessary to write apps and the shell are available and open source
<mhall119>#action we need to specify a data model for passing TV data between Scopes and the Shell
<meetingology>ACTION: we need to specify a data model for passing TV data between Scopes and the Shell
<bobweaver>so if you are going to have all the things that the TV had then you are going to have to implant all that
<mhall119>#action we need scopes that pull TV content from various backends and services that use the datamodel and new API
<meetingology>ACTION: we need scopes that pull TV content from various backends and services that use the datamodel and new API
<bobweaver>which I hear hush hush words that canonical is doing that
<mhall119>bobweaver: doing what?
<bobweaver>there is no work for the community because canonical can change anything at any second giving the community the eff bomb
<mhall119>bobweaver: that's what I'm actively working to change
<mhall119>and jhodapp has been pushing for that to change too
*jhodapp will back mhall119 on that
<bobweaver>mhall119:  good for you I am glade to see that
<mhall119>so we're almost out of time, tgm4883 any more actions you want me to record?
<tgm4883>nope
<bobweaver>Listen the only reason that I am hear is because I have to tell you all what happend to me and how you can NOT make it happen to the next me
<mhall119>I'd like to end this by asking how you guys, on the community, want us in Canonical to work with you
<bobweaver>you know what you all can do stop laughing at people
<bobweaver>take them for real
<mhall119>bobweaver: none of us has been laughing at all about this
<jhodapp>bobweaver, come on man, that's not fair
<bobweaver>listen to them and dont clang them up to be just people make them part of the team
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<bobweaver>mhall119:  should I take out the video of uds and saviq laughing ?
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<bobweaver>life is not fair
<bobweaver>listen if you seee some like me again just tell them that they need to contact saviq and the other people that are too cool to show up to these meeting
<mhall119>I certainly hope that didn't happen, but if it did I apologize on their behalf
<bobweaver>even though they said that they would make it
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<bobweaver>member at the last real UDS
<mhall119>bobweaver: Saviq doesn't work on TV anymore, he hasn't for some time
<mhall119>neither does jhodapp really, he's here on his own volition
<bobweaver>that is not the point the point is these are the people that CONTROL things
<bobweaver>you must make them work with people
<mhall119>bobweaver: no, they don't
<jhodapp>bobweaver, no that's not right
<bobweaver>if they dont want to then this is doomed
<mhall119>they've been yanked around and re-directed as much as you have (more probably)
*jhodapp can attest to that
<bobweaver>if you can not work together then what do you have
<bobweaver>?>
<bobweaver>people wasting there time
<mhall119>alright, our time is up, if anybody has any other questions, concerns or comments, you can find us in #ubuntu-tv
<mhall119>#endmeeting
9340 22*meetingology has changed the topic to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology>Meeting ended Fri Mar  8 19:02:21 2013 UTC.
<meetingology>Minutes (wiki):http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-08-18.01.moin.txt
<meetingology>Minutes (html):http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-08-18.01.html
<bobweaver>I am sure that they have been that is not what I am talking abou t