[02:16:15]	Keileon	Also would it be possible to have a brief, non-derogatory-"it's-impery-not-mancy" discussion on  the whole dracomancy/dracoimpery thing
[02:16:17]	Shadow	The only ones who can do that are called Progenitors
[02:17:13]	Starr|PL	I'll leave you two to that while I brb a tad
[02:17:15]	Keileon	Because the more I think about it the more the alternate name makes sense
[02:18:00]	Keileon	I realized this when Starr and I had like a three-sentence "conversation" on euthoran vs syelsumoii dracoimpery
[02:18:27]	Starr|PL	Huat
[02:18:39]	Keileon	The Euthoran variation is /mechanically different/ and is at its core not the same ability as starrplanet dracoimpery
[02:18:44]	Starr|PL	Don't make me think about how the syels call it
[02:18:46]	Keileon	(It might have been some other planet)
[02:18:52]	Starr|PL	Starrplanet
[02:18:56]	Keileon	No, don't worry about that
[02:19:01]	Starr|PL	Come on it has a name
[02:19:17]	Keileon	It was either Syel or Mantua idfr
[02:19:23]	Keileon	Either way
[02:19:34]	Starr|PL	>mantua lacks dragons
[02:19:45]	Starr|PL	Okay granted Cuwind but she's dead
[02:19:57]	Shadow	"Officially", what Euthoran would call "dracomancy" is called dracoimpery. Manipulation, or control, or dominion over dragons
[02:20:03]	Starr|PL	And saranyu probably hangs at her void the entire time
[02:20:14]	Shadow	Euthorans*
[02:20:16]	Keileon	Dracoimpery off of Euthora (bitch I don't know that stuff) definitely did not derive from a single dragon's bond with a human
[02:20:21]	Keileon	Not quite, Shadow
[02:20:36]	Keileon	Dracomancy (on Euthora) is more akin to communication than control
[02:21:01]	Starr|PL	(I mentioned it millions of times pls this is why I'm so passive aggressive about my thingssss)
[02:21:11]	Keileon	On the surface, yeah, it seems like control via willpower
[02:21:23]	Keileon	Mechanically though it's more like spiritual telepathy
[02:22:24]	Shadow	Does that really matter, though? All of those effects are subsets of the ability, is the point
[02:22:59]	Keileon	Similar to how Tobias's ability to commune with the dead is true necromancy, despite getting the power to control them as an offshoot of the ability, the ability to commune with dragons would be true dracomancy
[02:23:23]	Starr|PL	I wonder if serpentmancy is a thing
[02:23:45]	Keileon	Like
[02:24:00]	Starr|PL	*serpentimpery
[02:24:06]	Starr|PL	Son of a bitch
[02:24:27]	Keileon	Definitely dracomancy's familiar bonds would be /communication/, not control, because the master has no actual control over the dragon
[02:24:50]	Keileon	Would you still call that dracoimpery, if the term is incorrect?
[02:24:57]	Starr|PL	But doesn't the power by name mean control by?
[02:24:59]	Starr|PL	Oh I see
[02:25:33]	Keileon	Jason definitely does not control Mimring's actions. Mimring obeys Jason out of respect and friendship. He does it because he wants to.
[02:26:00]	Keileon	The dragon has to /give consent/ before it can be bound as a familiar
[02:26:04]	Keileon	(in most cases)
[02:26:14]	Keileon	That doesn't sound like control to me
[02:27:16]	Starr|PL	Deep
[02:27:17]	Starr|PL	*derp
[02:27:17]	Shadow	That's definitely not how I've seen dracoimpery work. This is actually a very specific case you're for some reason applying globally
[02:27:17]	Shadow	Sigh. If the true nature of the ability was communication, then it doesn't explain Kuro or Giga or Koth.
[02:27:20]	Shadow	Aren't they /imposing/ their will on dragons?
[02:27:24]	Keileon	Even if it's mechanically dracomancy, and tends to manifest as dracoimpery, I'll accept that. But I just want to get this squared off.
[02:27:33]	Shadow	Wouldn't Euthoran "dracomancers" be able to do that?
[02:27:42]	Keileon	Originally they were not
[02:28:02]	Starr|PL	Why can't they just be dracoimperists but just have that cultural different of saying it differently and call it a day
[02:28:39]	Keileon	Because, Starr, people won't accept that. Giga already does not play his Euthoran characters to culture.
[02:28:56]	Keileon	Either way:
[02:29:46]	Starr|PL	I'll take that for Koth but wasn't Giga raised /away/ from euthora? Why would he follow the culture, no less?
[02:29:49]	Keileon	Shyr and Isden had a bond of mutual spiritual communication, not control. This is what started dracomancy, and it is what dracomancy is at its core.
[02:29:59]	Keileon	Not what I mean
[02:30:15]	Keileon	He has Euthoran characters in SoS, there's Aegis's group, there's DEATHSTORM
[02:30:30]	Shadow	Like, it actually should be really simple. Dracoimpery is the base ability to have dominion over dragons in some way, shape or form. In the context of Euthora, it can be considered that the ability to "communicate with dragons" is a subset of dracoimpery
[02:30:36]	Shadow	It's like telepathy and psionicism.
[02:30:44]	Shadow	Telepathy is a subset of psionicism
[02:30:45]	Keileon	It's kind of the reverse, Shadow
[02:30:53]	Shadow	No, it's not
[02:31:03]	Keileon	The ability to control derived from the ability to communicate
[02:31:31]	Keileon	It wasn't for a long time that dracomancy started manifesting as dracoimpery
[02:32:39]	Shadow	Hmm... Not quite. Dracoimpery cannot be a subset because it makes no sense contextually
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[02:32:43]	Shadow	Let me put it this way
[02:32:56]	Keileon	Similar to how, for Tobias, the ability to control the dead derives from the ability to communicate with the dead
[02:34:36]	Keileon	I'm thinking of it in terms of... let's say computer code. Before you can start manipulating the code and tell the program what to do, you first have to understand how the code and program work
[02:34:59]	Shadow	You have a race of telepaths who for the longest time have only known how to send their thoughts to someone else. Then, something occurs, and they begin manifesting other psionic abilities. However, telepathy in this case IS NOT be a base ability, because it's actually a subset of psionicism.
[02:35:09]	Shadow	-be
[02:35:10]	Keileon	In this case the dragon is the program and its spirit/mind would be the code, no?
[02:36:31]	Starr|PL	Is not be
[02:36:38]	Keileon	similarly by using a coding example i am attempting to talk in a language you understand and thus manipulate you int agreeing with me
[02:36:40]	Keileon	*SHOT*
[02:36:46]	Keileon	*into
[02:37:24]	Shadow	It's the same thing here. They're called -impery abilities for a reason--it implies dominion, control. The way they can be used can vary GREATLY and do not necessarily conform to the explicit act of manipulating something, but they are at their core "base" abilities
[02:38:13]	Shadow	In the above example, this race's base ability has always been psionicism--it's just always manifested as telepathy before branching out
[02:38:49]	Keileon	Mmm
[02:40:16]	Keileon	I suppose that's fair, but there's still the fact that mechanically it is different from just the ability to impose your will on dragons
[02:40:50]	Keileon	It's like
[02:41:40]	Keileon	Yeah, it usually shows up like that in practice, but there's more to it than that. I feel like my coding example still stands up well.
[02:42:10]	Keileon	To control dragon, one must first understand dragon
[02:43:12]	Keileon	Understanding comes from communication
[02:45:14]	Shadow	That's fair too, but that's still fairly specific and does not explain why dracoimpery isn't the base ability
[02:47:37]	Shadow	The way you explained it actually seems more of a *limitation* rather than a logical flow of concepts. -impery abilities allow you to exert control over *something*, but it doesn't matter whether you understand it or not.
[02:47:55]	Shadow	Take anyone with an elemental -impery, for instance
[02:48:28]	Starr|PL	Gaga doesn't understand fire yet she jet propulsions like for no reason
[02:48:36]	Keileon	See this is where it gets odd, not because I don't have an explanation- I do- but I don't know if the explanation makes sense in context
[02:48:41]	Starr|PL	./2am
[02:50:31]	Keileon	I think of it as the dracomancer understands how the draconic mind works, and "communicates" with it in such a way that the subconscious is what is being communicated with. The subconscious can be a powerful thing. It's less force of willpower than it is manipulation of thought, strengthened by will...? I'm not doing a good job of explaining but this is the rough idea
[02:50:48]	Shadow	I get what you mean
[02:50:58]	Keileon	... More like ypnosis than control
[02:51:01]	Keileon	*hypnosis
[02:51:18]	Shadow	You could say that control is a subset of understanding, but that's actually completely backwards with how -impery abilities work, and have historically been show to work.
[02:51:27]	Keileon	The times when the dragon is unwilling is the conscious trying to fight the subconscious
[02:51:47]	Keileon	That's why I'm saying it's not impery
[02:51:56]	Shadow	Control always has come first--the physics behind fire, the molecular interactions of ice, understanding of plasma and electromagnetism--they are all secondary to the Soul Phantasms associated with them
[02:52:50]	Shadow	Once again, I fall back to my telepathy example
[02:53:17]	Keileon	True dracoimpery could easily work under the rules of -impery abilities, but what I'm saying that because dracomancy does not fall under those rules, it shouldn't be considered an -impery ability
[02:53:30]	Keileon	*is that
[02:54:14]	Shadow	It's not exactly an -impery ability as much as telekinesis is, but the point is that they're /subsets/ of other core -impery abilities, rather than the other way around
[02:54:49]	Shadow	Dracomancy simply cannot be a core ability if dracoimpery is associated with it
[02:55:18]	Shadow	Because dracomancy already falls within dracoimpery's domain
[02:55:23]	Keileon	What I'm gathering from this conversation is that they're different concepts and abilities, both terms are technically correct, it's just that the -mancy derives from the -impery
[02:56:10]	Keileon	So, for example, I could put on Jason's page "[...] is a dracoimperist and dracomancer [...]"?
[02:56:17]	Keileon	(I'm unlikely to)
[02:56:27]	Shadow	They're... not different though lol
[02:56:33]	Keileon	(I'm just trying to piece together what I'm gathering)
[02:57:05]	Keileon	I mean in the sense that Zio's ability to spawn fire is different from his ability to control temperature
[02:57:34]	Shadow	Oh, yes. Fire in this case would a subset of his thermoimpery
[02:57:36]	Keileon	They come from the same source, but they're not the same thing
[02:58:43]	Shadow	That's what I'm saying is the case with dracomancy/dracoimpery. Dracoimpery implies dominion over dragons in *some* way, shape or form, and so far everything you have listed dracomancy does can be described as a subset of that principle. They are specific to dragons, after all
[02:59:27]	Keileon	I'm just trying to figure out how it would remotely fit with how dracomancy on euthora started
[02:59:47]	Shadow	I'm not sure how that changes anything
[02:59:52]	Keileon	Because there were centuries where control of dragonkind /simply wasn't part of the mechanic/
[03:00:23]	Shadow	Do I really have to fall back to the telepath race example again?
[03:00:32]	Shadow	Not everything has to start with an -impery ability
[03:00:39]	Keileon	It's not a question of manifestation, it's a question of how a spiritual bond would derive from an ability to control which at that time did not exist
[03:01:01]	Keileon	Did dracomancy then just /turn into/ a subset of dracoimpery?
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[03:01:26]	Shadow	I'm not sure you understood what I said lol
[03:01:31]	Keileon	probably not
[03:01:34]	Keileon	it's 3am
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[03:02:26]	Shadow	I'm saying that dracomancy has always been a subset of dracoimpery. It's just manifested with its own set of rules and limitations that prevented /actual/ dracoimpery from manifesting first
[03:03:20]	Keileon	That
[03:03:27]	Shadow	In this case, it's sort of like learning new abilities upward in the tree instead of something branching outwards
[03:03:27]	Keileon	Seems kind of roundabout
[03:03:32]	Keileon	But I'll buy it
[03:03:49]	Shadow	It's not really roundabout, it's the logical conclusion
[03:05:17]	Keileon	brb
[03:05:21]	Shadow	It's like you were born with the ability to freeze things you touched. Then you eventually learn that your ability was a /very specific/ subset of cryoimpery all along
[03:05:27]	Shadow	Same principle
[03:06:23]	Keileon	Back
[03:06:39]	Keileon	I suppose that's fair
[03:07:43]	Keileon	I'm not sure how communication translates into dominion, but it's still fair
[03:08:49]	Keileon	I guess the ability to utilize it?
[03:09:44]	Shadow	The other way around. Dominion translates into communication. If it falls within what your power can control, why wouldn't you attempt to understand it, especially if it has a mind?
[03:10:07]	Keileon	because you might be giga
[03:10:10]	Keileon	*shot*
[03:10:18]	Shadow	Well yes but Giga aside
[03:11:33]	Keileon	I guess this can sort of be summarized as "The desire to understand results from the ability to control, but to effectively control one must first understand"?
[03:12:16]	Keileon	(note the use of "effectively". A dracomancer that knows how his dragon works will do better than one who does not.)
[03:13:56]	Keileon	Well, now that that's squared away
[03:14:33]	Keileon	Time to figure out how to solve the issue that the fact Giga doesn't play his Euthorans straight irks me...!
[03:15:09]	Shadow	That's why I said that in this case it's actually a limitation in how dracomancy works. Normally you'd just be able to crush the target's will away without giving a fuck about understanding it, but for Euthorans you sort of need to do that before you can access the root of the ability
[03:15:29]	Keileon	Ah
[03:16:27]	Keileon	Actually this brings up an interesting point
[03:16:42]	Shadow	Mya's power for example is essentially "manipulation of monsters". She technically can make contracts and other dracomancy-esque benefits with monsters, but at its core she can simply just turn the target monster's mind into mush
[03:16:49]	Keileon	The need to understand is prt of why more experienced dracomancers can take other dracomancers
[03:17:16]	Keileon	Because through exposure, the dracomancer's mind starts to work the same way a dragon's does
[03:18:04]	Keileon	(Jason being an exception because he's always had a dragon's mind)
[03:18:19]	Shadow	Ah, right, that could happen too
[03:18:23]	Shadow	I had forgotten about that
[03:18:50]	Keileon	That's why I refer to dracomancy as an "affinity" rather than a "control"
[03:22:10]	Keileon	Untrained dracomancers in the vicinity of dragons will unconsciously establish weak links with said dragons, one not of control, but to the point where the dracomancer can sense the dragon nearby, can tell its mood, etc
[03:22:31]	Keileon	Jason's already done that with Zephyr without even realizing it
[03:23:41]	Shadow	Yeah, at that point I suppose it's much less about specifically *controlling* something, but rather influencing it
[03:24:42]	Keileon	Like I said, akin to hypnosis
[03:25:00]	Keileon	Weak hypnosis, but still hypnosis
[03:25:53]	Shadow	How I view -impery abilities is that while they may be specifically related to having a dominion over a particular field, this "dominion" doesn't necessarily have to be conscious and explicit
[03:26:37]	Shadow	At that point it becomes more about influencing your dominion than exerting some form of control over it
[03:27:09]	Keileon	Right, that's why I was getting confused
[03:27:28]	Keileon	Because explicit control is supposed to just be an extreme of the power
[03:28:09]	Keileon	There IS the ability to simply completely crush the will of the dragon, but surprisingly enough that's been rare, even for Giga
[03:28:52]	Keileon	And by crush I mean the dragon becomes completely unresponsive to anything that isn't an order
[03:29:48]	Keileon	I think... the only time I've seen it wasn't even technically dracomancy
[03:29:58]	Keileon	It was Fricai and Stormshaper in ABL
[03:29:59]	Keileon	lol