Telamon: Well factions might die down a bit, based on a million rage based pm's I got this morning
Mes: yeah i was thinking you were getting a lot of PM's because i hear a lot of stuff too
Mes: they are pretty upset about guards and traps right now
Telamon: Yea,  it never ceases to amaze me the people that want pvp,  do the most to make sure there is no pvp
Telamon: well let me be more clear
Telamon: the people that "say they want more pvp
Mes: they've got this really large group and they are balling up and i can't fight them in a straight fight so i try things like daemons or guards or traps or luring people into passages and fielding but they get pretty upset
Telamon: but ive got a guard fix in the works, and the trap fix, mixed into the ctf update
Mes: they said htey'd just go O/C and that was fine with me
Telamon: Yea 95% of that rarely is an issue
Telamon: but the suicide bombs of guards in the comb base, or the double trap stacking in doorways I think just ruins it for people
Mes: when it comes to me facing those tactics like guards and such i just dont fight on them.  When it came to problems with traps i build a remove trap guy
Telamon: yea regardless I think thats why the factions goes in phases
Telamon: after a night like last night, SL pretty much will have the towns by default
Mes: i have to admit htat guards going into your base is really not cool, i think on the OSI shards they wouldn't go in
Telamon: I dont think anyone will bother with caping towns for a while
Telamon: again based on upset pm's
Mes: they are trying honestly, all three sides.  I think if they get them from me (which they can with their extra men and coverage of the night/day) i will just not fight them on guards
Mes: so it won't matter much to me
Telamon: yea if I was playing, I dont see it as an issue, the guards in the com base is a tad terrible
Mes: yeah i wiped them out like 1on9 last night with it
Telamon: the mass spawning of guards via a macro as well, but since people are abusing it, ive got to limit it
Mes: not really sure what to say abuot that, i remember askingyou for help when Lib did it to me a year ago in TB base
Mes: they probably shouldn't be able to go into bases
Telamon: well its the follow mechanic thats broken, its just a complex fix
Telamon: ill probably have to disable guards for a while
Mes: but it's not quite as unfair to them as they make it sound.  It's one of those squeaky wheel gets the grease things.  And in my opinion they will always ask for changes if they aren't winning
Telamon: well i never change anything based on complaints
Telamon: might not even be an issue now,  didnt sound like alot of them were interested in factions after that
Telamon: but ive had the guards on the todo list for a while
Mes: well we saw this coming to be honest, but i do think that's what's happening.  I've had this done to me many times and there are a lot of great ways to handle it that don't involve asking for the game to be changed
Telamon: its just ensuring that nothing on my todo list will ever get done,  I cant keep up with the exploits
Mes: i mean it's silly to call it an exploit.  Guards have been around forever, they're just not handling them like experienced people do
Telamon: of course,  but the things that kill servers are a feeling that things are not fair
Mes: instead they send you angry PM's about how they're all quitting
Telamon: because everyone that sees that done, immediately turns around and tries to do it themselves
Telamon: so you get the circle of stupidity
Telamon: "i did it because x did it, and x did it because y did it, etc"
Telamon: the base aspect is not what im fixing anyway,  guards are not acting like guards anyway
Mes: in any case, we had a discussion about it tonight and expected you to answer their complaints (they are already bragging about how it's an exploit and you've promised to change guards for them) and i'm not going to make a big deal about it
Telamon: the new system will have them assigned a point to defend, and they will defend that point
Telamon: vs acting like an aggressive force
Mes: but i will always come up with a strategy in battle, i'm not just going to lay down and die 10on5
Telamon: well,  who knows who it is anyway
Telamon: everyone hates Les Claypools guts now
Telamon: i cant tell with everyone being the same name anyway
Mes: i'm usually behind all the tactics
Mes: i make the traps and disarm them and i summon the guards typically
Telamon: well the point to my brining it up, is how to make all that fair in a "people will keep fighting" method
Mes: well here's what I do in their position - get the sigils.  Train remove trap (that's what it's there for.)  Don't fight on top of guards, just move away
Telamon: com's the worst base,  so bitching about inability to defend it isnt really a point
Mes: com is surely the worst base
Mes: if you take all the strategies out of it then it'll be the same result, i'll just have to avoid pvping utnil they break up to a manageable number
Telamon: well all I will fix for the guards is a teleport home check if they stray to far from their guarded position
Mes: i don't want you to cater to me or my folks anyways, just do what you will and if we still enjoy playing here we will
Mes: if they teleport back that's probably ideal for everyone
Mes: because one of the best defenses against guards is to lure them away
Mes: they can't be resummoned
Telamon: well im not referring to your tactics, or classifying them as an exploit
Telamon: like I said, I cant tell who does what and when
Telamon: my world is showing up to work at 9am
Telamon: and having 20 flashing windows with walls of text
Telamon: "factions is broken"  "im quiting factions"  "traps are broken"
Telamon: building a server around whiners will result in a fail all the time
Mes: yeah, i apologize for acting annoyed, i just kinda saw this conversation happen and it's a frustrating feeling (just kinda feels like the guys that cry the loudest get changes in their favor).  But really we were prepared for this and we will love this server either way
Telamon: but we want to find a way to have it fun, and not discouraging
Telamon: well look at it this way
Telamon: I wouldnt discuss a change with them
Telamon: i would with you
Telamon: I have to defend our mechanics daily to people
Telamon: I think the only issue with traps is really the stacking one next to another,  personally Id be pissed if I died that way
Telamon: but then again we have the warnings so im not sure how it happens
Telamon: but removing the warnings and ading a space check to placement, I think will address that
Mes: and you really only hear one side of the story, because we're not complaining to you daily.  There's a lot of things about their tacitcs i don't like either (like recalling has replaced healing, people just recall away from every fight because its safe and quick) or how people engage fights and run to a myriad of houses to hide.  But I handle these mechanics my own way and we plan accordingly and don't blame the server or you for them
Telamon: I need to fix the com base region a bit, and the TB base region to fix those pinch points
Telamon: well if it helps, I ignore 99% of the whining
Telamon: the only thing im focusing on is discouragement
Mes: one of the things that makes traps not that big of a deal is they are free to disarm after you have trained removed trap.  THey cost 1000 silver to place, they reward 100 to a disarmer and you can remove one every 10 seconds without any resource cost.  When minax traps their base I just scoot by and remove them.
Telamon: yea,  complaints about that are lazyness,  I think in our last chat we all agreed on the mechanic change for those
Telamon: and im more than aware of how people are with SL
Telamon: it was the same way for me on UOSA
Telamon: we were the best at something,  so people bitched about it endlessly
Telamon: anyway I never made reactionary changes,  but i tend to look past the bitching for that 1% of an actual issue that we can fix that benefits everyone
Telamon: so the 20 people bitching, dont turn into 20 people using the same thing they are bitching about
Telamon: like google complaining about someone ghosting his town tonight,  when he's ghosted dungeons on multiple occasions
Mes: yeah again I apologize for being frustrated with it, I know you are always doing what's best for the server and trying to make it the most enjoyable for everything
Mes: whatever changes you go with i'll support you on it
Mes: i don't need guards or traps to win battles.  There's a lot of ways to win battles
Telamon: well if your interested, ill let you review them before we change anything
Telamon: but to keep factions going, we need to fix the bum rush of guards into the base,  of a large scale
Telamon: using a new place + defend + range to next guard + teleport home
Telamon: that should balance it well, and add some tactics to guard placement
Telamon: while changing little
Mes: yeah I think that would be great, i'd appreciate being kept in the loop i imagine Ez is the only one that knows more about the faction system here than me
Telamon: well I need the tactical review,  im never comfortable with a change until I can think about it
Mes: there is some stuff that the enemy factions dont realize - like I can't sustain this guard thing.  I've run those towns dry on silver and i'm running SL dry too
Mes: that's one of the balances to the system - they just don't know ti yet
Telamon: I spent a month plotting the ctf changes
Mes: because they arne't as experienced with the system
Telamon: yea the gaurd + base thing is only an issue
Telamon: because they picked a faction in a town and dont control the town
Mes: they're chasing sigils at all hours of the night now, and if I think i'll lose them i'll probably use some world war tactics and burn all the silver so they don't have much to work with
Telamon: hah well that is good
Mes: i'm just staying a step ahead of them really
Mes: they are learnign but slowly
Mes: but again i've been in factions here for a year
Telamon: on the positive side at least there is another large group fielding
Mes: they've been in for 2 months
Telamon: and just to be clear my form response to most of these issues is "ill look into it"
Telamon: so if you hear any "Telamon's going to blah blah blah"
Telamon: highly unlikely
Mes: yeah I heard Jhile saying telamon's going to fix guard exploits and then we'd be F'd and that kind of thing
Mes: tonight anyways
Mes: i imagined you really just said something like you had a factino patch planned and were already planning guard changes
Telamon: yea thats a good example
Telamon: i didnt even talk to him
Telamon: so its most likely 3rd or 4th hand
Telamon: and youve dealt with me long enough, I try to be political on any statement
Telamon: because if I give people an inch, that happens
Telamon: i normally never tell the "complainer" that they found a valid problem, even if they do
Telamon: because I have to avoid the 2nd grade name calling, and "i told teacher on you" antics
Mes: guards going back to their posts is good anyways.  It stops the problems where they get lured and won't listen tot he sheriff out of town and can't be fired
Telamon: yea,  ive got like 10 things on my list that are fixed by that
Mes: which is the best tactic vs them...kill them they get rehired.  But if you lure them and tuck them away they just cost money and rob the town
Telamon: and since guards have a home location, I can cycle all the guards, and make sure there isnt blatant stacking
Telamon: yea ive asked people that like 20 times,  why dont you kill them
Mes: anyways anything you decide i'll get behind.  This is the only and best server for us either way
Telamon: cool, thanks, im slowly trying to work myself into more of a backseat role where I just work on advertising and dont really interact with the players as much
Telamon: nothing good is coming of most of it anyway
Telamon: and im down to only 2-3 friends here
Telamon: people ask me about mechanics daily . .  only as a reason to argue with me that they are wrong, the server isnt developed right, on this server it was different, or to try and match wits over OSI knowledge
Telamon: all things i have zero time for
Telamon: its amazing how many former failed server admins play here, and want to tell me how to run things
Telamon: its very hard to not reference their previous failed projects
Telamon: even the two guys on reddit who tore into UOR (m-/Vorspire) have failed servers
Mes: all i can say is look at what happened to an corp compared to this server
Mes: clearly UOF is hanging on with the niche that prefers that style of server and that's fine.  It seems like a different kind of player wants to play there
Telamon: yea, its not easy,  and there is no way I can know who I can talk to about changes here or there
Telamon: your one of the more balanced guys here, but even me mentioning complainers can be frustrating
Telamon: its very hard to develop a server in a vacuum where you have no one to talk to
Telamon: Ez was a headache, but at least we talked mechanics for 10-20 hours a week
Telamon: but thankfully thinks are running well, and I have zero desire to rock the boat, change massive things
Telamon: and after a ton of testing, the tool delays fixed my concerns with mining, so I can roll back some other changes
Telamon: now I have to address the dam boat sheep farms
Telamon: btw,  i finished ctf scoring, I think everyone will enjoy it
Telamon: managed to track, kills, deaths, flag caps, and damage healed
Telamon: to create a scoring system
Telamon: so we can reward the outstanding performance on each team
Mes: well i feel like i burned you before with the whole sync message thing.  I talked to my folks about it and it kinda got run away with and I don't even trly believe that's what was going on.  And earlier this summer i was much too invested in drama so I want to be a lot better about staying out of it
Telamon: well thats just a good example,  nothing you did was wrong,  but it shows how things morph out of control
Telamon: but we move on, and learn,  but am thankful for your opinions, so feel free to share ideas, etc
Telamon: just give me some leeway on conversations,  I might discuss tactics, have opinions, but when changintg the server, I never let that have any bearing on the best design
Telamon: one of the things that pisses me off the most is when I try to talk to someone and they get upset and do the "well its your server, you can do what you want" line
Mes: well i'm glad to be one of the people that you go to anyways.  I think i came into this conversation kinda frustrated because we had seen it coming but I was really overeacting
Telamon: i literally cant win in some conversations with people
Telamon: people come bitch at me about a mechanic, I defend the mechanic,  either they dont like my defense or our design, or they have to admit that I am right, but because I am right and its the internet, they think I have a god complex
Telamon: literally the best result of that conversation would have been for me to say nothing
Telamon: but if it helps, i have no concerns, or valid complaints about anything SL does,  i just want to keep people in factions to fight
Mes: shits hard to please people especially when they all hate each other sometimes
Telamon: hah yea, but the hate is good,  the place is boring when everyone gets along
Telamon: Otherwise you have 20 reds on the same team
Telamon: having a nice balance of red vs red, and red vs blue keeps things even
Mes: was there a point in time where aggressors couldn't enter houses?  Maybe around the time custom houses were designed?
Telamon: on UOSA easily 1/2 of -3-'s time was dedicated to hunting the other reds there
Telamon: battlerattle would ghost TG houses for weeks at a time tracking recall spots, gate spots
Telamon: i watch the pk's here and am amazed at how casual they are
Telamon: you could literally trap google in his own house
Mes: i actually like hunting reds i always prefer it to pking.  Reds have gotten really sophisticated lately about gate bots and getting into hosues before they get killed and stuff
Telamon: hmm late in UOR or third dawn they added that
Telamon: where non friends couldnt enter
Mes: feels a bit trammel too i suppose
Telamon: well the guild messages should have fixed the gate bots
Telamon: yea my only worry with reds is things like Bart
Telamon: bart seems to jump onto any pk team
Telamon: regardless of tactics or reputation
Telamon: if that happens on a large scale, it would force me to expand the new player aspects
Telamon: to keep people
Mes: yeah that's kind of a running a joke here...I really think he's a nice guy but we iced him out when he tried to schmooze us because we know he just gets behind the strongest group
Telamon: yea, I honestly thought better of him
Telamon: I still dont understand the horse killing
Telamon: but he takes on the tactics of who he runs with
Telamon: and google is your stage 5 whiner