8th Feb '13 1:21:46 PM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugs-

-curls up-


8th Feb '13 1:33:46 PM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

Are you okay?

-hugs and pets-


8th Feb '13 1:34:20 PM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

I'm not entirely sure.

-petted-

-hugs-


8th Feb '13 1:38:37 PM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

Hm. Care to expand?

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyo4tNwNIvQ

-hugs more-


8th Feb '13 1:42:24 PM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

Lovely lovely music.

I... don't know what I believe or what to believe any more. Religion-wise. I'm not certain any more as to whether God exists, which is not a pleasent feeling. And I should be talking about this with my youth worker instead, sorry. She'll get me some Bible notes in a couple days, so I can work on figuring things out, I guess. Though there's more than that. And stuff.

-hugs-


8th Feb '13 2:02:57 PM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

You are always always welcome to talk about religion or stuff or anything.


8th Feb '13 2:12:53 PM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

Danke. Though I should probably go to bed soon or now. It's just... I'm scared, I guess that if I try to pray as I used to, I won't receive any answer. At the moment I can hope that as long as I don't do anything, there isn't a lack of answer. I don't know if that makes sense. I don't want these doubts and confusions.

Sorry.

I've been away from my church family for a while due to being ill. That's part of my uncertainties, I'm sure. I'll be seeing people again in a month for sure, when I go to camp, so that will probably help.

Talking to a non-Christian about this feels slightly strange. :P Your offer really is appreciated. May I ask what prompts you to listen, always, even when it's issues with a religion whose god you do not, I think, believe exists? I'm not sure how you do it. -hugs-

And goodnight and sleep well.


9th Feb '13 6:39:24 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:
So what answer are you used to receiving and why would that stop?

It does make sense.

Don't apologise. And don't rationalise stuff away, truly. Doubts and confusions are horrid but you have to face them and work through them.

I always listen because I care. And because listening can help. And, here, because I have been in a similar-ish place, and hope that I can help. -hugs-


9th Feb '13 6:47:46 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

There isn't an answer I am used to receiving, but I have come to expect that there will generally be a response of some form. Maybe I don't want to think about there being no response/no response distinguishable from my own thoughts. I'm unsure of my own mind at the moment.

-hugs-

If you're comfortable saying more about the similar-ish place you've been in, I'd be interested to hear it.


9th Feb '13 7:41:38 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

Response how?

I know, little one. But you do have to think. I know it's hard, but you can't run away.

-hugs-

Hm. Okay.

A lot of it was to do with depression stuff. I'd become a less and less good Christian, less faithful and observant, over the years. The Abrahamic god never seemed to be around or looking out for me at all, though of course he was looking out for other people who were more faithful, or so I thought.

I was talking to Alex about depression stuff and the topic turned, in time, to faith.

She doesn't like Christianity anyway, viewing it as an evil and dangerous cult, but she listened and talked to me. I wasn't thinking of faith as at all relevant, but she reckoned - and quite rightly, I must say - that large amounts of the mess that was my mind derived from the kind of Christianity I'd been taught. Not all Christianity, you understand; I'm not being derogatory as a whole.

And it hurt to listen, but I've always listened to Alex, because what she says is always worthwhile. And I listened, and argued, and cried, and doubted and was confused and everything hurt.

And I was learning about Paganism anyway, because it was fascinating to me. And I learnt more and more and found it more and more appealing and right. But I don't think that's the side of the story you're asking for.

But yes. I know what it is like to suddenly doubt everything. I know how much it hurts. But you do have to face it and deal with it, not run away from it and hide in layers of denial like so many do.

And it will either lead to a far stronger Christian faith or a lack of one. But both of those will be an improvement, I promise you.


9th Feb '13 8:10:41 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

A feeling or a thought or a sense something like that. It's rarely clear for me (I mix things up with my own confusing mind), but sometimes I think it has been real. And then I doubt those times. Dammit.

But all I want to do is run away from it. -curls up again-

Hm. Thank you.

I don't even know which one I would prefer oh help did I just say that. Either would be an improvement.


9th Feb '13 8:13:09 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

Okay. I see. Shh. It's okay.

I know you want to. But then it will just come back later. You have to deal with it.

Good. Good to say so. Be honest. Completely so. Good.


9th Feb '13 8:20:54 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

It... it is?

Can't I deal with it later too, though? Later is always a better time. Just like the grass is always greener elsewhere. Drat.

Bad to say so. Speaking thoughts one shouldn't think makes them stick in one's head longer. One shouldn't think of stuff like that, I've been taught. It's okay to have doubts, but not like that — doubting God's existance is okay for a short time and you go to a pastor like a good person and come out fine, but doubting whether you want him to exist is something not-good and something you shouldn't do or talk about. You aren't meant to not know whether you want to be Christian; it's meant to be this really great thing that everyone wants and that you share because it's so awesome and you have this wonderful relationship with God and so on. And sometimes it is.

And I shouldn't have said this either.


9th Feb '13 8:36:53 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

Yes, it is okay. Promise. It's okay to be human, sweetie.

Nope. Have to deal with it now. Or it will just will come back worse later.

Yes. You have been taught such. But it is always, always healthy to question what you have been taught.

Sometimes it can be awesome. Often it's not. And that's okay.

It's okay to think. It's important to be honest with yourself. And it is okay not to believe in the Abrahamic god or to be Christian. And it is okay. Honestly and truly.

It sounds to me like you're not actually Christian, just want to be. So why do you want to be? Because you've been told you should be? Fuck that, if you'll pardon my language. Don't let other people tell you what you should be (and yes, that includes me too, I'm just trying to talk but you don't have to take any of what I say).

And yes. Continue being honest.


9th Feb '13 8:53:29 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

Not all parts of being human are particularly fun, it seems.

Often it is awesome. Sometimes it's not. I've gotten stuck in the sometimes bit.

I do want to be... I want to be because of the wonderful times I have had. And because I'm scared of not being Christian. I don't know which reason is larger.


9th Feb '13 8:58:55 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

I know. Humanity simulatneously sucks and is amazing.

Shh. It's okay.

Wonderful times like what? And scared why?


9th Feb '13 9:05:18 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

Wonderful times like the camps I've been on. Wonderful times like hanging around, singing, chatting, and praying with friends from church. Wonderful times feeling so absolutely loved by people and by God. Times that don't seem to happen any more, in part because I can rarely go to church. There was a point when I had up to five groups a week, all of which were related to church, though they were rarely all on in one week. That was a fun period.

Scared because I might not get those times in the future. Scared because I don't know what to think. Scared of what Mom and others would be like.


9th Feb '13 9:16:54 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

That's the thing. Few of those are explicitly Christian. You can find companionship and love elsewhere, I promise. And I do sympathise.

Hm, can I tell you a secret?

You will always find wonderful times if you are true to yourself. (Cheese cheese cheese). And think whatever you like. Don't let anyone determine it. And again, other people can fuck off. They aren't important.


9th Feb '13 9:34:11 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

Not the same companions. Isn't everything magically better when stamped with the Christian™ label, anyway?

I don't know what being true to myself is at the moment. And one isn't meant to think whatever one likes, though; that's part of the point of a religion like Christianity, right — that thinking in line with it is better. Boundaries and rules are a good thing.

Cheese is a most lovely food. :P


9th Feb '13 9:38:11 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

Nope. Honey, I realise I'm biased (and that's partly why I want to talk to you, so that you get bias from both directions and not just the heavily Christian bias) but some things are far far better without that label.

Right now, being true to yourself is allowing you to think. And no. Boundaries and rules like that are awful. They fuck you up and make you feel guilty for thinking or for being human or clever or all the things like that. Boundaries and rules should be thrown out of the window. Find your own code and don't let anyone impose one on you.


9th Feb '13 9:48:12 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

One reason I was hesitant to talk to you was because I only wanted to receive the Christian-sided bias. :P

Yes, anything with religion involved above the level of a group of friends meeting (a church) is bad, e.g. non-secular politics. Anything with religon below that level is good, though, right? That's what I've learned from experience and from thinking. I think.

Boundaries and rules like that have been good for the past six years for me, I think. It's only now that I'm questioning them that they're maybe not so good... I should be guilty, because allowing myself to think and be human isn't a good thing. Humans are bad; humans should not be without God. you shouldn't question it and you shouldn't have doubts and all like this. Fashionable and lighthearted questioning is all that's allowed, because as long as it doesn't go deep then you're not at risk of leaving the group and you can instead be an example for people who might question more deeply. And I'm rambling, I think. Saying these things that I shouldn't be saying... it makes me feel almost as though there's a form of brainwashing, though it isn't bad whilst your in it.


9th Feb '13 10:00:30 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

Yeah, no. That is voluntarily brainwashing yourself. I'm not letting that happen. I care about [ME].

Not necessarily. I've had better and more loving times with atheistic friends than with Christian ones. Religion doesn't magically make everything better; it can often make it worse.

Nope. Have to say things to acknowledge what you're thinking. It's really important.

Honey, being human is what you are. You cannot and must not think that what you fundamentally are is a bad thing. That mentality really is evil, and perpetuated by people who wish to sell something.

You are yourself and that is good.

Yes. It is a form of brainwashing. Not allowing people to think for themselves is what brainwashing is.


9th Feb '13 10:17:16 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugs-

I haven't really, possibly because my entire real-world social life has always been centered on church. Atheists, or even *gasp* Pagans, are a rare and seldom-encountered species. :P

Okay.

Do you mean sell something for money or sell a religion?

Sinful and bisexual teenager is not good... You should always be yourself, unless your self is bad, in which case you create a fake self to be your self so that you can be yourself and everyone is happy.

But brainwashing is a bad thing, and Christianity isn't bad. As long as you don't think about wanting to leave, upon which it becomes harder.


9th Feb '13 10:23:44 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

-hugs-

Precisely! So you think you can only have good times with Christians because that's all you've known! That is a fallacy, my dear; judge that when you've known all kinds of people.

Both. Selling a way of life; selling a religion that keeps people coming back and giving money and time and feeling awful about themselves for daring to be human.

Nope. Nope nope nope nope. Don't complicate this with sexuality, Your sexuality is your own and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The only thing that can be wrong is if you try to be soething you aren't. That, again, is truly evil, as is something making you think you should be so.

Fake selves are bad. Fake selves will hurt you. Listen, honey; I've tried that one, for so many years, and it left me empty and bitter and hating myself. Fake selves are never ever a good idea in any way, shape or form.

Precisely! Everything is fine if you don't try to think. again, that is what brainwashing is.


9th Feb '13 10:35:11 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugs tight-

Ja... Some people say there is and some people say there isn't. It seems the people I'm friends with say there isn't but the people at a higher level who I don't know so well say there is. It's just confusing... I've always said that there isn't anything wrong with it, though.

I bet there are some rare times when they're good.

..


9th Feb '13 10:49:04 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

-hugs-

Honey, you have to accept yourself. That is vitally important. That is the most important step to actually being okay with life.

Find me one example of when denying yourself helps.

(Tip: It honestly never does.)

Hm?


9th Feb '13 10:55:52 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugs-

 Why is it so important?

Someone in a country where a group is persecuted pretending to not be a member of that group. (Note: I know this is not comparable to anything; it's just an example to hopefully break the statement that denying oneself is never good.)

Nothing.

I was thinking a moment ago... and... i dont believe in God did I really just say that help... I didn't at this time yesterday, or the day before, or the day before..


9th Feb '13 11:08:29 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

-hugs-

It is incredibly important, because if you don't accept yourself then you will always resent and hate yourself and you will live in constant misary. Because you will constantly dislike bits of yourself and that wears you down until you hate yourself and everything else, and in the end you just see everything as a chore. Do you see what I mean?

(I will keep talking but Alex says you're welcome to talk to her too about such if you wish in case she can explain better.)

That's still not good. It may have short-term external benefits, but it will fuck with their minds and mess with their sense of self and in short hurt them very badly.

Good. Good to admit that. I'm very proud.

And it's okay not to believe in him. It is perfectly okay. And there is no way at all that you should pretend to or try to follow him if so. No way at all. It really is brainwashing.


9th Feb '13 11:14:40 AM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugs close-

I do see what you mean, very well.

(I will keep that in mind. smile)

That makes sense. You're far too good at being right about everything. :P

I feel sick...

How is it okay? It's a sin; it's wrong; nobody should convert away from Christianity; I shouldn't have talked to someone; I should follow him no matter what; doubting isn't okay...

Brainwashing, right.

It... it really is okay? And I shouldn't pretend things? ...


9th Feb '13 11:35:59 AM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

-hugs tight-

Okay. Good.

Heh, not always. But I'm glad it makes sense.

Shh. Shh. It's okay.

Not a sin. Really isn't. Not at all.

And you should always talk. Never bottle things up. I know this from experience. It only ever makes them fester and hurt you more.

If you said that about a person, you'd call them a dictator. To follow without doubting or thinking.

Really is okay. I promise. I know it's terrifying, but it really is okay. And never ever pretend.


9th Feb '13 1:19:56 PM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugged-

It doesn't feel okay at the moment; 'tis scary. I think that... in my head the definition of atheism is messed up. I know that it is the lack of belief in any gods, and not necessarily anything more, but I keep associating extra baggage with it. Hmpf; will work on that.

Yeah..

But a benevolent dictator is good — it means the people following them don't mess up or get things wrong amongst themselves as long as they obey the dictator. Who am I kidding, I never, ever say that with relation to politics; freedom is important. Very important.

I just want to hide, from not being Christian and from everyone and what they would say or think and from sinning and going to Hell, because that's what happens. Why is it terrifying? How do you know it's okay?

I've answered the first before and you've answered the second before. Never mind. ...


9th Feb '13 1:30:12 PM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

-hugs-

I know it is scary. I know. But you can and will deal with baggage. And I'm always here if you need.

Hm. Think of it like this.

There's a fence, and tied to the fence is a really angry dog. And people say 'don't cross the fence because the dog will get you'. But the dog is tied to their side of the fence; if you cross the fence, the dog can't reach you at all. But if you straddle it, it'll bite at you and gnaw you.

The fence is the divide between Christianity and not-Christianity, and the dog the fear of going to Hell. If you don't believe in the Abrahamic god, you have literally no reason to believe in Hell or believe that you will go there. It's only if you sort of hover that you'll worry and worry.

It is terrifying because you're questioning everything for the first time and that's always hard.

It's okay because it can be got through.

Don't worry, honey.


9th Feb '13 1:34:40 PM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugs-

Thank you.

Interesting. Straddling is caused by being raised for near 16 years with beliefs in Heaven, Hell, God, Jesus, etc. etc. etc., though, and that will take time to get through if I get through it. I do intend to talk with Christian friends as well, because just as I shouldn't get bias just from their side, I shouldn't get bias just from not-their side, I think.

Hm, is anything okay provided it can be gotten through?

-worryworryworry- :P


9th Feb '13 1:37:06 PM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

-hugs-

Yes. I know. But I promise you can get through it.

And yes. Get bias from both sides.

Yes. It is okay.

Shh. Shh. Shh.


9th Feb '13 1:40:46 PM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugs-

Okay.

It seems like I'm going in circles now..


9th Feb '13 1:57:10 PM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

-hugs-

That's fine. You can talk all you wish. Don't worry about repeating yourself or anything.


9th Feb '13 1:59:41 PM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugs-

When might it feel okay, whichever way I go?

How do I know that if I were to be an atheist that wouldn't result in, say, going to hell?

Why am I mangling tenses? XD


9th Feb '13 2:11:53 PM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

-hugs-

When? I don't know. It varies.

Because you have no need to believe such.

Distress. XD


9th Feb '13 2:14:21 PM [MY NAME] to [MY FRIEND]:

-hugs-

Fair enough.

But if it's there, it doesn't matter whether I believe in it or not.

On the other hand, there's still no point worrying about it, is there.

Oh, and many, many thanks. You're awesome, [FRIEND].


9th Feb '13 2:21:25 PM [MY FRIEND] to [MY NAME]:

-hugs-

And if it's not, likewise.

Precisely!

It's no problem. :)