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- -->| YOU (Multiheaded) have joined #nyanmultithunderdome
- =-= Topic for #nyanmultithunderdome is “Multiheaded v. nyan sandwich THUNDERDOME”
- =-= Topic for #nyanmultithunderdome was set by LRS on 21 июля 2014 г. 7:59:25
- Multiheaded h-h-here I go
- rsaarelm Great! Only there's been no sign of nyan so far.
- Multiheaded first of all, some basics on structural anti-trans* violence. chew on that while I'll try to get
- sufiiciently fired up for a good rant
- Multiheaded http://criticalmassprogress.com/2012/11/21/ci-remembering-transgender-victims-of-structural-violence/
- ErikMesoy Hello Multiheaded
- Multiheaded sup
- ErikMesoy This basics document seems to be traveling down a familiar path answering those conservatives who
- whine about the definition of "violence", wanting to limit it to spilled blood rather than abusive systems.
- |<-- rsaarelm has left irc.darklordpotter.net (Ping timeout)
- ErikMesoy Do you happen to also have a resource answering those* who say instead: "Yes, but grubbing in the
- dirt and dying of pneumonia at age 25 is also an abusive system. Civilization requires some degree of oppression of
- deviants, so the options aren't abuse or no abuse, the options are caveman abuse or civilization abuse" ?
- Multiheaded yeah, and even at that, the blood *is* spilled, of course. trans* suicide attempts rate is like 40%
- in america. and what makes it so emotionally charged to me is, in part, how terrified i am looking back at my suicide
- attempt.
- ErikMesoy *other than not being stock conservatives, I have no idea what this group is; I doubt it's even
- reactionaries
- Multiheaded civilization abuse: 1) they can't show a causal connection: even girard's talk about scapegoats
- does not designate a specific target group - why not abuse *bad* people? 2) if you look at basically every country in the
- world, this is anti-correlated at least
- Multiheaded 3) look at japan: highly advanced, peaceful but fairly repressive on gender and sexuality -> low
- birth rate, high depression, high suicide
- ErikMesoy 1) seems to have an intuitive answer: the *bad* people go to jail or execution, scapegoats must be
- only somewhat freaky. I like the other two responses better.
- ErikMesoy Does it help you get fired up for a good rant if I sum up nyan's position as "being trans is
- unprofessional"?
- Multiheaded again, the correlation here is *not* causation I think; there might be some deeper underlying
- meta-structure behind liberalism and non-suckyness... except that i agree that liberalism has flaws, too
- Multiheaded i already identified it as more than that... i need to go read some personal stories and such
- Multiheaded basically, we needn't lump all non-liberalism together too: in terms of mental health I think
- catholic cultures ~ orthodox ones >>> protestantism > modern post-confucianism
- Multiheaded so very briefly my position: cultural conservatism has some good features while today's western
- liberalism as it actually exists has many failings, but 1) those don't neccessarily mirror each other, and 2)... well, 2)
- is a very interesting idea i've formulated before and will recapture promptly, and 3) tolerance is an unquestionable good
- for the imaginable space of cultures, because the demand it satisfies is so dire
- [2014-07-21 23:20:53] -->| rsaarelm (rsaarelm@dlp-A6500A1A.kapsi.fi) has joined #nyanmultithunderdome
- [2014-07-21 23:24:15] <Multiheaded> i messaged ozy on tumblr to come lend me a hand. not sure if zie will come.
- [2014-07-21 23:47:45] <Multiheaded> i haven't even begun to cover the feminist theory angle of this. i'm not sure this is
- within my powers, but basically one line of radfem argument could also be that patriarchy is an unfriendly system that
- harvests cultural resources from the subordinate classes (from having a housewife institution to justifying rape), exploits
- and channels emotional labour (will anybody want me?/men don't...
- [2014-07-21 23:47:45] <Multiheaded> ...cry, gotta work harder at it!) in addition to the fairly straightforward economic
- exploitation, and directs some of the benefits to men, unequally, throws a few scraps to the subordinates who perform their
- role best, and most of all perpetuates itself.
- [2014-07-21 23:47:45] <Multiheaded> radfems would probably locate 90% of *all* the scapegoating going on within the gender
- system, and this is simply because the gender regime shapes our very understanding of dominance and submission, strength
- and weakness
- [2014-07-21 23:47:53] <Multiheaded> really need to be more precise here
- [2014-07-21 23:50:28] <Multiheaded> but yeah, the takeaway in this case is that scapegoating is not in practice a generic
- "social technology", it's very often a byproduct of patriarchy used towards *its* ends and not some vague "stability" and
- "common good". and the complaint would be that conservatives refuse to study the gender regime, and that normativity and
- stability are invoked as semantic stopsigns
- [2014-07-21 23:52:03] <Multiheaded> like, the *generic* psychological mechanism of scapegoating is... generic, but in
- practice patriarchy is probably going to be involved somehow. one VERY salient example is prison rape and the attitudes
- towards it, as well as generally rape being used as a literal expression of dominance and a metonym for it in emotionally
- charged conflicts between men.
- [2014-07-21 23:54:01] <Multiheaded> the defeated is symbolically emasculated/feminized, and thus his rape becomes an act of
- scapegoating that reaffirms the order that has just rewarded the victor. on a very fucked up level, the use of rape *is* a
- "social contract"
- [2014-07-21 23:57:18] <Multiheaded> googling 'patriarchy scapegoating' returns mra whining
- [2014-07-21 23:59:51] <Multiheaded> a more particular feminist argument about gendered scapegoating is offered by the many
- writings on medieval witch hunts. that's easily googlable.
- [2014-07-22 00:00:54] <Multiheaded> oh, and the more general case is apparently in julia serano's *whipping girl*. seems to
- be specifically about trans*, too. must read.
- [2014-07-22 00:01:57] <Multiheaded> hm, i'm raising the jolly roger to look it up. will quote the relevant bits if i locate
- it.
- [2014-07-22 00:06:22] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: ok, found an epub of Whipping Girl, will go skim it now
- http://en.bookfi.org/book/1411559
- [2014-07-22 00:07:28] <Multiheaded> this resource seems to be blocked in some countries (in russia that's the case), use a
- proxy if needed
- [2014-07-22 00:09:05] <Multiheaded> *grin* oh yeah! seems to be right on the mark! if nothing else, I could just quote it
- at nyan in like an angry and vengeful way
- [2014-07-22 00:11:55] <Multiheaded> ok, the introduction has the statement of intent, but not the argument against misogyny
- and gender hierarchy itself. nevertheless it might be helpful to identify nyan's argument as inseparable from outright and
- unequivocal misogyny.
- [2014-07-22 00:12:06] <Multiheaded> dumping now:
- [2014-07-22 00:13:29] <Multiheaded> In a male-centered gender hierarchy, where it is assumed that men are better than women
- and that masculinity is superior to femininity, there is no greater perceived threat than the existence of trans women, who
- despite being born male and inheriting male privilege “choose” to be female instead. By embracing our own femaleness and
- femininity, we, in a sense, cast a shadow of doubt over the...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:29] <Multiheaded> ...supposed supremacy of maleness and masculinity. In order to lessen the threat we
- pose to the male-centered gender hierarchy, our culture (primarily via the media) uses every tactic in its arsenal of
- traditional sexism to dismiss us...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...Instead of attempting to empower those born female by encouraging them to move
- further away from femininity, we should instead learn to empower femininity itself. We must stop dismissing it as
- “artificial” or as a “performance,” and instead recognize that certain aspects of femininity (and masculinity as well)
- transcend both socialization and biological sex—otherwise there would not be...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...feminine boy and masculine girl children. We must challenge all who assume that
- feminine vulnerability is a sign of weakness. For when we do open ourselves up, whether it be by honestly communicating our
- thoughts and feelings or expressing our emotions, it is a daring act, one that takes more courage and inner strength than
- the alpha male facade of silence and stoicism. We must challenge...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...all those who insist that women who act or dress in a feminine manner take on a
- submissive or passive posture. For many of us, dressing or acting feminine is something we do for ourselves, not for
- others. It is our way of reclaiming our own bodies and fearlessly expressing our own personalities and sexualities. It is
- not us who are guilty of trying to reduce our bodies to mere playthings,...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...but rather those who foolishly assume that our feminine style is a signal that we
- sexually subjugate ourselves to men. In a world where masculinity is assumed to represent strength and power, those who are
- butch and boyish are able to contemplate their identities within the relative safety of those connotations. In contrast,
- those of us who are feminine are forced to define ourselves on...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...our own terms and develop our own sense of self-worth. It takes guts, determination,
- and fearlessness for those of us who are feminine to lift ourselves up out of the inferior meanings that are constantly
- being projected onto us. If you require any evidence that femininity can be more fierce and dangerous than masculinity, all
- you need to do is ask the average man to hold your handbag or...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...a bouquet of flowers for a minute, and watch how far away he holds it from his body.
- Or tell him that you would like to put your lipstick on him and watch how fast he runs off in the other direction. In a
- world where masculinity is respected and femininity is regularly dismissed, it takes an enormous amount of strength and
- confidence for any person, whether female- or male-bodied, to...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...embrace their feminine self. But it is not enough for us to empower femaleness and
- femininity. We must also stop pretending that there are essential differences between women and men. This begins with the
- acknowledgment that there are exceptions to every gender rule and stereotype, and this simply stated fact disproves all
- gender theories that purport that female and male are mutually...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...exclusive categories. We must move away from pretending that women and men are
- “opposite” sexes, because when we buy into that myth it establishes a dangerous precedent. For if men are big, then women
- must be small; and if men are strong then women must be weak. And if being butch is to make yourself rock-solid, then being
- femme becomes allowing yourself to be malleable; and if being a...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...man means taking control of your own situation, then being a woman becomes living up
- to other people’s expectations. When we buy into the idea that female and male are “opposites,” it becomes impossible for
- us to empower women without either ridiculing men or pulling the rug out from under ourselves. It is only when we move away
- from the idea that there are “opposite” sexes, and let go of...
- [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...the culturally derived values that are assigned to expressions of femininity and
- masculinity, that we may finally approach gender equity. By challenging both oppositional and traditional sexism
- simultaneously, we can make the world safe for those of us who are queer, those of us who are feminine, and those of us who
- are female, thus empowering people of all sexualities and genders.
- [2014-07-22 00:14:16] <ErikMesoy> Gnar. Having trouble opening the epub, and the PDF is temporarily unavailable.
- [2014-07-22 00:15:15] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: here's a torrent with .mobi, .txt and .lit
- [2014-07-22 00:15:18] <Multiheaded>
- http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7650475/Whipping_Girl__A_Transsexual_Woman_on_Sexism_and_the_Scapegoatin
- [2014-07-22 00:17:45] <ErikMesoy> ok, reading it now
- [2014-07-22 00:22:46] <ErikMesoy> I am objecting pretty much right off the bat when the manifesto proposes to define being
- a woman as an act of will, by including anyone who identifies as a woman, regardless of other qualifications, as though sex
- were a political movement or the like. (This shortly after complaining about the social constructionists, to boot.)
- [2014-07-22 00:22:56] <ErikMesoy> But maybe I shouldn't be reading this to object.
- [2014-07-22 00:25:06] <Multiheaded> oh, and this reminds me of what i'd bring up in a more personal rant, had i been more
- fired up: slowly opening up to my genderqueerness and overcoming the alienation from my girl... "side" (well, not side, i
- don't experience my masculinity and my femininity in an oppositional way and this is very important to me and before tumblr
- stuff on gq i was painfully confused) - well, by doing the...
- [2014-07-22 00:25:06] <Multiheaded> ...emotional work of that, i slowly became aware of why i was having so much
- difficulty:
- [2014-07-22 00:25:06] <Multiheaded> BECAUSE MISOGYNY IS FUCKING INTENSE AND BRUTAL AND TERRIFYING. there is this enormous,
- many-faceted hatred in the world for all that is woman, all that is feminine, and that's inevitable, because femininity is
- not just associated but directly *identified* with the *meaning* of victimhood and scapegoating. "woman" *means* "the
- object of contempt and control and an overseer's paranoia"
- [2014-07-22 00:25:06] <Multiheaded> ok, pretty fired up now
- [2014-07-22 00:27:25] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: "by including anyone who identifies as a woman" cis-by-default strikes
- again, "identifying with a woman" is anything but a superficial act, a person who would merely speak the words for non-
- gendered personal reasons would flinch from accepting new structures of self-image and relation within oneself
- [2014-07-22 00:28:28] <Multiheaded> tl;dr - "you weren't there, man" *thousand yard stare*
- [2014-07-22 00:29:32] <ErikMesoy> Multiheaded: cis-by-default is a neat example of the other reaction I feel, when now
- trying to read this charitably, of nodding my head and going "yes, so?" as I consider that the author seems to want me to
- get upset and offended by some phenomenon, and it's not happening.
- [2014-07-22 00:33:03] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: so as an experiment you could try examining the reaction of other trans
- women, and see if there's unusually high support for the thesis and its emotional thurst, with less amounts of the usual
- "black conservative"/"i don't need feminism"/"as an X, no X is oppressed"
- [2014-07-22 00:33:12] <Multiheaded> i predict that there would be
- [2014-07-22 00:33:44] <Multiheaded> this said, *of course* i personally am much less oppressed than non-genderqueer trans
- women
- [2014-07-22 00:34:41] <Multiheaded> but i can relate completely to their key points about this experience of sheer fucking
- terror
- [2014-07-22 00:57:57] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: so after some huffing and puffing i discovered that a few of my intuitions
- are already covered in whipping girl, here's a link:
- http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7650475/Whipping_Girl__A_Transsexual_Woman_on_Sexism_and_the_Scapegoatin
- [2014-07-22 00:57:57] <Multiheaded> how systemic misogyny and cissexism and our notions of
- power/weakness/dominance/inferiority intersect. you aren't going to like the constructivism, but the fact that only gender
- constructivists ever seem to make all those points about systemic misogyny is kind of an argument in their favour
- [2014-07-22 00:59:43] <ErikMesoy> nydwracu: can second it as a fascinating read, but it does have some very deep
- assumptions I disagree with, such as taking the notion of "gender" seriously
- [2014-07-22 00:59:52] * nydwracu puts on his eye patch
- [2014-07-22 01:00:04] <Multiheaded> to be perfectly frank, i don't support extreme gender constructivism as well. but when
- radfems try extreme essentialist, the result is just silly woo. and I'm more constructivist than the default position for
- western society today, although the default is politically incorrect to say out loud
- [2014-07-22 01:00:07] <ErikMesoy> Pieces of eight, bugger the made
- [2014-07-22 01:00:08] <ErikMesoy> *mate
- [2014-07-22 01:00:24] <nydwracu> i have got to install an adblocker, popups have autoplaying sound now
- [2014-07-22 01:00:28] <nydwracu> this particular one went
- [2014-07-22 01:00:31] <nydwracu> "are you a boy or a girl?"
- [2014-07-22 01:00:34] <nydwracu> #synchronicity
- [2014-07-22 01:00:55] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: did it have "yes" and "no" buttons?
- [2014-07-22 01:01:17] * ErikMesoy gazes upon his stopwatch, counts the seconds it takes for Multi to say something about
- how the piratical use of "bugger" is an example of this subject
- [2014-07-22 01:02:14] <nydwracu> la déconstruction has not gone far enough that mmorpgs would advertise themselves that way
- [2014-07-22 01:02:17] <nydwracu> yet
- [2014-07-22 01:02:47] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: that's because it's a tiny and well-known one. the more interesting hints
- imo are in our discourse about emotions, specifically all the shit that evolved to conceal that emotional work is literally
- work, as in productive labour
- [2014-07-22 01:02:53] <nydwracu> man, that reminds me
- [2014-07-22 01:04:28] <nydwracu> i used to say, in the course of arguing that sexual orientation is only considered to be a
- universal and innate thing because of the political dynamics around it, that there's no intrinsic reason why it should be
- more central to one's identity than one's taste in pizza
- [2014-07-22 01:05:08] <nydwracu> but i realized a few hours ago that it is *less* central to my identity than my taste in
- pizza
- [2014-07-22 01:05:31] * ErikMesoy upvotes
- [2014-07-22 01:06:18] <ErikMesoy> Damn identity politics?
- [2014-07-22 01:06:36] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: seems to be a very obvious "The Man made me an X" dynamic here, although of
- course there's the opposite coping strategy too, and it varies greatly by individual
- [2014-07-22 01:07:53] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: I like to complain about identity politics myself, but there's an unthinking
- paleo-leftist circlejerk about it. I've always said that there needs to be a careful integration of the various '68 issues
- into a reconstructed communism
- [2014-07-22 01:08:05] <nydwracu> maybe that could be an example of crystallizing the wrong concept?
- [2014-07-22 01:08:29] <nydwracu> unless it was a conscious strategy to attack prohibitions on behavior by reframing
- behaviors as identities
- [2014-07-22 01:09:05] <nydwracu> which '68 issues?
- [2014-07-22 01:09:46] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: of course, in the absense of a certain discipline, the intellectual movement
- is along the line of least resistance, and any defenses against outright falsehood don't cover it, since technically
- identity politics is not *false*, it just is not the one true correct line of attack and progress that I'm convinced we
- need to identify
- [2014-07-22 01:09:57] <Multiheaded> we need some kind of *precision*
- [2014-07-22 01:10:38] <nydwracu> the empirical claims it makes [relies on?] can be false
- [2014-07-22 01:10:48] <nydwracu> and the thedes it forms can be strengthened or weakened by those empirical claims
- [2014-07-22 01:11:12] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: for instance, that discipline and precision are problematic - all that
- deleuzian shit. again, technically not *wrong*, we just can't integrate it right and still have a functioning alternative
- to everything
- [2014-07-22 01:11:40] <nydwracu> i can't follow that but i have been awake for about 24 hours so i would not be able to
- [2014-07-22 01:11:47] <ErikMesoy> it sounds like the die techie scum problem?
- [2014-07-22 01:11:53] <Multiheaded> can't immediately come up with a good example about emotion/sexism ATM, in the
- meanwhile read this
- [2014-07-22 01:11:53] <Multiheaded> http://www.justlabour.yorku.ca/volume2/pdfs/soares.pdf
- [2014-07-22 01:12:07] <ErikMesoy> we want the tech but not the techies, and we're not competent to replace the techies
- [2014-07-22 01:12:51] <ErikMesoy> (paraphrasing others, not my own opinion)
- [2014-07-22 01:13:59] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: not directly, but that is also a symptom of following the line of least
- resistance in part. and in part it's frustration and insecurity. and in part it is probably correct. although history tells
- us that Not All Tech Scum. in the end the tech controversy is almost entirely about economics, and we've been in full panic
- mode with bouts of apathetic despair about economics for the...
- [2014-07-22 01:13:59] <Multiheaded> ...last 25 years
- [2014-07-22 01:14:25] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: "competent *enough*" is deeply relative
- [2014-07-22 01:14:49] <nydwracu> well, the thing i do not understand is
- [2014-07-22 01:14:51] <Multiheaded> and after all it's also a matter of power and security. the US didn't fear von braun
- [2014-07-22 01:15:09] <nydwracu> or rather, i do understand it but it seems like an inconsistency if you take the stuff
- seriously
- [2014-07-22 01:15:18] <nydwracu> why isn't anyone going after the colleges
- [2014-07-22 01:15:27] <nydwracu> like, seriously going after them, "here's why college is terrible and here's why you
- shouldn't go"
- [2014-07-22 01:16:11] <nydwracu> not "oh well gee i guess it's sort of a shame that college is so expensive now let me tell
- you why a $200k english degree is important and good"
- [2014-07-22 01:19:11] <nydwracu> attacking academia runs counter to the new left strategy of organizing academics,
- students, and lumpens [against most of the proles but fuck them they can get replaced]
- [2014-07-22 01:19:22] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: seen my SSC comments on nash equilibria? in this case, education appears to
- have been the area of broad post-68 concessions to the New-Left-cum-progressivism, and i'm not just talking about the
- production of dogma, but about the ideology of "class mobility". maybe that the lower classes are encouraged to attend a
- cathedral-approved institutions is like... i don't know, forgot the...
- [2014-07-22 01:19:22] <Multiheaded> ...metaphor, but this appears to be basically a sign of "Society Is OK for the
- Individual"
- [2014-07-22 01:20:03] <Multiheaded> college props up the compromise/consensus post-68 conceptions of both Society and the
- Individual
- [2014-07-22 01:22:21] <nydwracu> There is a policy that’s better from a neutral/technocratic view and actually more
- leftist, but it requires going on the offensive against some key implicit concessions that the Right has won in an earlier
- conflict
- [2014-07-22 01:22:26] <nydwracu> And the Right need not be so malicious that they’d sabotage a win-win proposal for
- ideology’s sake, just instumentally rational enough to demand something big in return, both for its own sake and to
- disincentivize further power grabs. This also happens symmetrically.
- [2014-07-22 01:22:52] <nydwracu> well yes but if you are old left enough to think that there are certain concessions that
- can be provided
- [2014-07-22 01:23:16] <nydwracu> of course the problem there is, which right are you providing the concessions to
- [2014-07-22 01:23:16] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: again, if it was merely about the direct reproduction of dogma, leftists
- would bash tech in favour of liberal arts, and in small degrees this happens, and to a larger degree the cathedral simply
- doesn't have the power to, but fundamentally i do stand by my guess that higher-education-in-general for the masses is just
- seen as a key symbolic point of stability for the system
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