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  1. [6:09:12 PM] Jabberwock xeno: You might wanna change the answer choice to 194, though, though I guess most people will realize 195 is the correct answer
  2. [6:09:21 PM] Jabberwock xeno: so it doesn't really matter
  3. [6:09:26 PM] Jabberwock xeno: anyways
  4. [6:09:35 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [6:06 PM] Chaoguy:
  5.  
  6. <<< last survey comments?let's do this first
  7. [6:09:41 PM] Jabberwock xeno: unless you think the other first is best
  8. [6:09:46 PM] Chaoguy: Nah, your commets first
  9. [6:10:03 PM] Chaoguy: Ok, first bit:
  10. [6:10:07 PM] Chaoguy: Q2: Should the locations where the Evil Team Admins, Leader and Northington show up be decided by the detailed plot?
  11. Result: Yes.
  12. Comment:
  13. I vote no, but I wouldn't be opposed to a minor change to change the order or to make what admin where unspecified, but allowing the detailed plot to override the minor changes and/or outline is not acceptable It's important that at the very least that if northy or the ET leader is at a given encounter is locked down by the time detailed plot happens, or else we have people voting on plots based on which of the two is at what encounter instead all of the other details which are actually inherent to the plot, chances are you could switch around if admin A is at X encounter or if it's admin B, or if northy is at encounter Y or if it's the ET leader without totally screwing up the plot, so we shouldn't be having people vote on plots and having to factor in the exact order of these things.
  14.  
  15. Reply:
  16. IIRC Despite the result of this question, another question does encourage the specific admins to be vague. So the Leader/Norty encounters would be fixed, and where an encounter with ANY admin would be as well. It wouldn't be, Admin #1 has to appear here, or Admin #3 must make an appearence there. It would an open slot, ready to vote on later what admin fills that gap.
  17. [6:11:21 PM] Jabberwock xeno: this was the question that was the issue that sketcher was helping me with
  18. [6:11:25 PM] Jabberwock xeno: did you ever speak to her
  19. [6:11:35 PM] Chaoguy: Err, yeah.
  20. [6:11:37 PM] Chaoguy: Sent me this
  21. [6:12:08 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ?
  22. [6:12:09 PM] Chaoguy: [Sunday, January 18, 2015 10:06 PM] Sketcher:
  23.  
  24. <<< The question should have been an ‘either or else’ question that specified if you wanted to vote on the admin order beforehand OR leave it up to the final details OR do something else, instead of just voting to leave it up to details or no. Functionally they imply the same thing, but the wording specifies one option and leaves the other side of it out, which creates bias as they don’t necessarily see the alternatives and pros and cons
  25. [6:12:59 PM] Jabberwock xeno: That's a part of it but that's not really as much detail as I wanted her to give, let me explain
  26. [6:13:07 PM] Jabberwock xeno: so
  27. [6:13:26 PM] Jabberwock xeno: One of my minor chage submissions was to switch the admin you battle during X encounter from admin A to admin B
  28. [6:13:42 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'm sure othr people submitted similar changes
  29. [6:13:45 PM | Removed 6:14:56 PM] Chaoguy: This message has been removed.
  30. [6:13:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ?
  31. [6:14:16 PM | Removed 6:14:54 PM] Chaoguy: This message has been removed.
  32. [6:15:01 PM] Chaoguy: Being retarded
  33. [6:15:15 PM] Chaoguy: Got my surveys mixed up and could find it.
  34. [6:15:22 PM] Chaoguy: OK,. so
  35. [6:15:55 PM] Chaoguy: In the Plot 1 survey, do you remember which question you commented on and suggested switching the specific admins around?
  36. [6:18:35 PM] Jabberwock xeno: It was a change I submitted on the fourms in the minor changes submissions, It wasn't in the previous survey because this question was included, which isn't even a minor change, but maruno wanting to change how the system works a bit by allowing detailed plot authors to change around what admin is where hwoever they want.
  37.  
  38. The whole point of the system was that rough details are locked in the outline, then we have minor changes to modify them a bit, then those are locked in, and detailed plot authors fill in the outline + minor changes with more details, but they don't CHANGE any of what was already decided.
  39.  
  40. The inclusion of the question breaks that, invalidated my valid, qactual submission from being considered, since my submissions was about changing a specific admin from here to here, wheras this allows detailed plot authors to do whatever they want with it. That's also problematc because the whole point of having the plot split up into outline chharaceer/rival, and detailed plot surveys is so that we nail down controversial details in a staggered format so we don't have people voting out entire plots based on one or 2 parts they hate, detailed plots were supposed to share all the stuff that we decided on in the outline and characiization/rical surveys, and only differing in the stuff they add. By allowing detailed plot authors to change this up, we will have people voting influenced by the admin order, instead of the stuff they are supposed to be during detailed plot
  41. [6:19:01 PM] Chaoguy: Fuck nigga
  42. [6:19:05 PM] Chaoguy: Gimme a sec to read that
  43. [6:20:03 PM] Chaoguy: [6:18 PM] Jabberwock xeno:
  44.  
  45. <<< It was a change I submitted on the fourms in the minor changes submissions, It wasn't in the previous survey because this question was included, which isn't even a minor change, but maruno wanting to change how the system works a bit by allowing detailed plot authors to change around what admin is where hwoever they want.So, whether the shift in system was just or otherwise, did you re-submitt your comments in the new system (via survey comment instead of just forum posts)
  46. [6:20:59 PM | Edited 6:21:07 PM] Jabberwock xeno: That's more or less what I said in the comments for this question
  47. [6:21:22 PM] Chaoguy: So you said "here's a problem" or "Here's a problem, but here are my comments anyway"?
  48. [6:23:33 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Before the plot survey was out, I had made a huge document going over my issues with how it was set up and each questions since maruno said he was wiloing to go over the srvey with other people. So I made it, but then he said I only had like an hour to go over it with him before he posted the survey, and this was the 1 issue I had time to go over with him.
  49.  
  50. Me, carson, him, sketcher, brian, and a few others debated this in main chat for a while. The debate was why is this even being put in the survey when it's not a minor change but a system change, why is a system change allowed, how is this fair to me since it invalidated my minor change, etc
  51.  
  52. Sketcher was going to make sure this was resolved in this survey, but that idn't happen
  53. [6:25:03 PM] Jabberwock xeno: did all of
  54. [6:25:04 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [6:18 PM] Jabberwock xeno:
  55.  
  56. <<< It was a change I submitted on the fourms in the minor changes submissions, It wasn't in the previous survey because this question was included, which isn't even a minor change, but maruno wanting to change how the system works a bit by allowing detailed plot authors to change around what admin is where hwoever they want.
  57.  
  58. The whole point of the system was that rough details are locked in the outline, then we have minor changes to modify them a bit, then those are locked in, and detailed plot authors fill in the outline + minor changes with more details, but they don't CHANGE any of what was already decided.
  59.  
  60. The inclusion of the question breaks that, invalidated my valid, qactual submission from being considered, since my submissions was about changing a specific admin from here to here, wheras this allows detailed plot authors to do whatever they want with it. That's also problematc because the whole point of having the plot split up into outline chharaceer/rival, and detailed plot surveys is so that we nail down controversial details in a staggered format so we don't have people voting out entire plots based on one or 2 parts they hate, detailed plots were supposed..
  61. [1/22/2015 7:05:15 PM] Jabberwock xeno: so
  62. [1/22/2015 7:05:19 PM] Jabberwock xeno: that's everything up till now
  63. [1/22/2015 7:06:52 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [7:04:57 PM] Chaoguy: (back, reading)
  64. [7:05:10 PM] Chaoguy: (Yes, new chat is a good idea)
  65. [7:05:21 PM] Chaoguy: Also, before anthing else I realized something
  66. [7:05:50 PM] Chaoguy: The admin thing might need to be invalidated, but not for the reasons you think
  67. [7:06:09 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I added you there, we should talk there.
  68. [7:06:12 PM] Chaoguy: What if nothing about admins was locked. At all. They just use A B C as easy markers.
  69. [7:06:23 PM] Chaoguy: Then, detail stage says WHAT they can do
  70. [7:06:37 PM] Chaoguy: After plot is locked, community designs WHO they are.
  71. [1/22/2015 7:07:11 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Currently the outline does say A, B, C, etc
  72. [1/22/2015 7:07:39 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I don't know what you mean wwith the rest of that
  73. [1/22/2015 7:07:52 PM] Jabberwock xeno: their designs and stuff will be voted on in the charariization survey along with the champ
  74. [1/22/2015 7:08:05 PM] Jabberwock xeno: the outline already lists actions that they do, and detailed plot will further
  75. [1/22/2015 7:08:27 PM] Chaoguy: tl;dr:
  76. [1/22/2015 7:08:28 PM] Chaoguy: [Thursday, January 22, 2015 6:50 PM] Jabberwock xeno:
  77.  
  78. <<< I want to be able to change the order from the outline in minor changes, but then have whatever the order we decide in minor changes to be locked and for every detailed plot to use that order
  79. [1/22/2015 7:08:40 PM] Chaoguy: While discussing with Majora, I realised:
  80. [1/22/2015 7:08:59 PM] Chaoguy: [Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:06 PM] Chaoguy:
  81.  
  82. <<< What if nothing about admins was locked. At all. They just use A B C as easy markers.
  83. Then, detail stage says WHAT they can do
  84. After plot is locked, community designs WHO they are.
  85. [1/22/2015 7:09:26 PM] Chaoguy: IMO that is what detail plot should be doing, but people might think they get final say on personality/etc.
  86. [1/22/2015 7:10:35 PM] Chaoguy: And that detail people "lock" where admins appear. I.e. Admin A must always be where Admin A says it is. Rather than "Well now we have the admins designed, I think B would be better here".
  87. [1/22/2015 7:10:41 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:07 PM] Jabberwock xeno:
  88.  
  89. <<< Currently the outline does say A, B, C, etc
  90. I don't know what you mean wwith the rest of that
  91. their designs and stuff will be voted on in the charariization survey along with the champ
  92. the outline already lists actions that they do, and detailed plot will further
  93. [1/22/2015 7:11:15 PM] Jabberwock xeno: So i'm not sure whqat you mean chao
  94. [1/22/2015 7:11:36 PM] Chaoguy: Detail people just decide what a character does, right?
  95. [1/22/2015 7:12:00 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ...no?
  96. [1/22/2015 7:12:04 PM] Chaoguy: YES
  97. [1/22/2015 7:12:07 PM] Chaoguy: YES THEY DO
  98. [1/22/2015 7:12:11 PM] Chaoguy: No, wait hold on
  99. [1/22/2015 7:12:12 PM] Chaoguy: Ok.
  100. [1/22/2015 7:12:22 PM] Chaoguy: Northington is not yet finished as a character
  101. [1/22/2015 7:12:33 PM] Chaoguy: So his motivations can be decided via detail stage.
  102. [1/22/2015 7:12:37 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Detailed plot is the more detailed version of the outline plot. Chariizcation survey handles personality appeorance of NPCs and evil team and stuff
  103. [1/22/2015 7:12:44 PM] Jabberwock xeno: (I might be outdated)
  104. [1/22/2015 7:12:52 PM] Jabberwock xeno: maruno might have changed some of this
  105. [1/22/2015 7:12:53 PM] Jabberwock xeno: idk
  106. [1/22/2015 7:13:21 PM] Chaoguy: My understanding was that detail stage would decide a bit more why NPCs do something (if that info is explained in the plot)
  107. [1/22/2015 7:13:26 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Oh yes
  108. [1/22/2015 7:13:52 PM] Chaoguy: And that the Admins would be designed last. So the Admins have actions listed, maybe why they did it, and no physical design or character traits.
  109. [1/22/2015 7:14:08 PM] Chaoguy: So after the plot survey is done, people design the Admins.
  110. [1/22/2015 7:14:21 PM] Chaoguy: Now.
  111. [1/22/2015 7:14:29 PM] Chaoguy: In the survey question said:
  112. [1/22/2015 7:14:30 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Chaizirizstion survey is happening right after minor changes thougj, is it not?
  113. [1/22/2015 7:15:07 PM] Chaoguy: Characterization comes with designs. Like the gym leader designs.
  114. [1/22/2015 7:15:08 PM] Chaoguy: Anyway
  115. [1/22/2015 7:15:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: wait
  116. [1/22/2015 7:15:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: no
  117. [1/22/2015 7:15:21 PM] Jabberwock xeno: There's a specific chaiziaration survey in the plot plan
  118. [1/22/2015 7:15:29 PM] Chaoguy: Ok, then it is. My bad.
  119. [1/22/2015 7:15:37 PM] Chaoguy: In the survey the question said:
  120. [1/22/2015 7:15:39 PM] Chaoguy: Should the locations where the Evil Team Admins, Leader and Northington show up be decided by the detailed plot?
  121. [1/22/2015 7:15:53 PM] Chaoguy: Winning result was yes.
  122. [1/22/2015 7:15:59 PM] Jabberwock xeno: http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/capx/images/2/2f/The_Plan.png/revision/latest?cb=20140718144327
  123. [1/22/2015 7:15:59 PM] Chaoguy: Which means
  124. [1/22/2015 7:16:31 PM] Chaoguy: Plot chat decides where the Admins (currently undesigned) go in the plot.
  125. [1/22/2015 7:16:45 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ?
  126. [1/22/2015 7:17:01 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Currretly it's that the detailed plot authors can decide who goes where in thei detailed plot submission
  127. [1/22/2015 7:17:07 PM] Chaoguy: FUCK
  128. [1/22/2015 7:17:10 PM] Chaoguy: Thats what I meant
  129. [1/22/2015 7:17:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: hue
  130. [1/22/2015 7:17:14 PM] Chaoguy: Getting tired
  131. [1/22/2015 7:17:16 PM] Chaoguy: So
  132. [1/22/2015 7:17:33 PM] Chaoguy: Detailed plot authors decide where the admin shells (lets call it that for now) go.
  133. [1/22/2015 7:17:50 PM] Chaoguy: So they can re assign A, B, C to wherever they want.
  134. [1/22/2015 7:18:00 PM] Chaoguy: But if B appears here, that means it can't be A or C.
  135. [1/22/2015 7:18:01 PM] Chaoguy: Now.
  136. [1/22/2015 7:18:20 PM] Chaoguy: At what point in the question does it say Detailed Plot writers have the final say on where they go?
  137. [1/22/2015 7:18:35 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:17 PM] Chaoguy:
  138.  
  139. <<< Detailed plot authors decide where the admin shells (lets call it that for now) go.Right, and that shouldn't be the case, that causes issues with bias as well as invalidaes people who suggested that the the order from the outline be changed, but still be fixed, like me
  140. [1/22/2015 7:18:43 PM] Chaoguy: They can put forward ideas
  141. [1/22/2015 7:18:48 PM] Chaoguy: They can be voted o
  142. [1/22/2015 7:18:52 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:18 PM] Chaoguy:
  143.  
  144. <<< At what point in the question does it say Detailed Plot writers have the final say on where they go?The "final" say?
  145.  
  146. Depends what you mean by final.
  147. [1/22/2015 7:19:00 PM] Chaoguy: Even the winning plot can be voted on
  148. [1/22/2015 7:19:02 PM] Chaoguy: Maj
  149. [1/22/2015 7:19:11 PM] Chaoguy: Detailed plot is going to go through minor change
  150. [1/22/2015 7:19:16 PM] Chaoguy: Admins will re-arrange.
  151. [1/22/2015 7:19:35 PM] Chaoguy: We will probably end up re-arranging it based on the designs people submit afterwards as well.
  152. [1/22/2015 7:19:42 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I know. That's irrevalenet, and doesn't help. If the detailed plot author designed thei extra details around X admin being in Y location, and minor changes changes that, then the plot is fucked up
  153. [1/22/2015 7:19:57 PM] Chaoguy: The only thing the survey changes is who decides where ABC go for the INITIAL plot.
  154. [1/22/2015 7:20:02 PM] Jabberwock xeno: The main issue is that people will be influnced during voting by the order
  155. [1/22/2015 7:20:11 PM] Jabberwock xeno: not that an order I don't like will be voted in
  156. [1/22/2015 7:20:16 PM] Chaoguy: So instead of 69 people saying "A here, no B here" and then we revote on that later.
  157. [1/22/2015 7:20:24 PM] Chaoguy: It's the detail plot writers.
  158. [1/22/2015 7:20:26 PM] Chaoguy: It will change
  159. [1/22/2015 7:20:37 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Chao either you aren't understanding me or i'm not understanding you
  160. [1/22/2015 7:20:46 PM] Chaoguy: [Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:19 PM] Jabberwock xeno:
  161.  
  162. <<< people will be influnced during voting by the orderTHE VOTING ORDER WAS RANDOM
  163. [1/22/2015 7:20:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: hopefully when carson gets back he can get us all on the same page
  164. [1/22/2015 7:20:51 PM] Chaoguy: ALL VOTING ORDERS ARE RANDOM
  165. [1/22/2015 7:20:55 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ?
  166. [1/22/2015 7:21:00 PM] Chaoguy: Jesus FUCK why didn't you say this at the start?!"
  167. [1/22/2015 7:21:05 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ?
  168. [1/22/2015 7:21:05 PM] Jabberwock xeno: what
  169. [1/22/2015 7:21:09 PM] Jabberwock xeno: no
  170. [1/22/2015 7:21:10 PM] Jabberwock xeno: chao
  171. [1/22/2015 7:21:13 PM] Chaoguy: On every fucking question, we randomise the order of the answers
  172. [1/22/2015 7:21:16 PM] Jabberwock xeno: No
  173. [1/22/2015 7:21:21 PM] Jabberwock xeno: the order of the admins
  174. [1/22/2015 7:21:22 PM] Jabberwock xeno: in the plot
  175. [1/22/2015 7:21:26 PM] Jabberwock xeno: not the question order
  176. [1/22/2015 7:21:30 PM] Jabberwock xeno: or the answer order
  177. [1/22/2015 7:21:33 PM] Chaoguy: THEY ARE JUST LETTERS
  178. [1/22/2015 7:21:37 PM] Chaoguy: THEY AREN'T PEOPLE
  179. [1/22/2015 7:21:45 PM] Chaoguy: WE CAN POUR WHATEVER FUCKING MOLD WE WANT INTO THEM
  180. [1/22/2015 7:21:57 PM] Chaoguy: Don't like who A is? Fucking vote on who A will be.
  181. [1/22/2015 7:22:08 PM] Chaoguy: Want A to appear where B is in this part of the story?
  182. [1/22/2015 7:22:15 PM] Chaoguy: We'll have a survey for it.
  183. [1/22/2015 7:22:18 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Chao
  184. [1/22/2015 7:22:24 PM] Jabberwock xeno: you aren't understanding
  185. [1/22/2015 7:22:28 PM] Chaoguy: We have surveys for minor changes for EVERY FUCIKING STAGE.
  186. [1/22/2015 7:22:31 PM] Chaoguy: And I guess I won't.
  187. [1/22/2015 7:22:38 PM] Chaoguy: You want to fix it now, I want to fix it later.
  188. [1/22/2015 7:23:15 PM] Jabberwock xeno: just
  189. [1/22/2015 7:23:25 PM] Jabberwock xeno: go to bed, hopefully carson can explain better then I can
  190. [1/22/2015 7:24:40 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Currently they are more then ust letters, because they already have defined actions, aand their apparence and personality is going to be voted on as soon as minor changes end
  191. [1/22/2015 10:26:34 PM] Carson Daly: ok ok ok there's a lot of confusion here, let me clear things up (chao, i assume you'll read this when you're next on)
  192. [1/22/2015 10:27:17 PM] Carson Daly: 1) originally, plot was set up so that the outline was final (after minor changes to it), and although anything in the outline could be elaborated on in details, and any details that don't conflict with the plot outline can also be added then, nothing in the outline could be changed in any way
  193. [1/22/2015 10:27:31 PM] Carson Daly: after minor changes, if it was in the outline, it was final, confirmed, unchanging except for programming
  194. [1/22/2015 10:28:11 PM] Carson Daly: 2) when the outline was written, it had A in one place, B in another place, C in another place, etc. if it were confirmed with those locations, they could not be changed by details period except for programming
  195. [1/22/2015 10:28:40 PM] Carson Daly: 3) with this knowledge in mind, majora submitted a change "i want admins A and B switched," knowing that if his change were approved, the order (with A and B switched) would be final and could not be changed by details
  196. [1/22/2015 10:29:23 PM] Carson Daly: 4) this submission was not included in the survey. instead, maruno included a question that said "regardless of what the outline ends up saying, even after minor changes, detailed plot should still be able to change whether admin A or B is in a certain place"
  197. [1/22/2015 10:30:07 PM] Carson Daly: 5) this is directly opposed to the point of the outline. the outline NEEDS to be final and unchanging, or else during details, people will vote based on which things from the outline that are changed that they like best, instead of which details they like best
  198. [1/22/2015 10:30:25 PM] Carson Daly: 6) this fucks over people like majora, whose submissions were made under the impression that, if approved, they would be final and unchanging
  199. [1/22/2015 10:30:45 PM] Carson Daly: that should cover the confusion that happened, but let me know if i was unclear anywhere, and i can go into more detail
  200. [1/22/2015 10:31:17 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [Thursday, January 22, 2015 10:28 PM] Carson Daly:
  201.  
  202. <<< 3) with this knowledge in mind, majora submitted a change "i want admins A and B switched," knowing that if his change were approved, the order (with A and B switched) would be final and could not be changed by details*final disregarding any subsquent minor changes surveys like the one after detailed plot
  203. [1/22/2015 10:31:52 PM] Carson Daly: no, if admin A and B's locations were confirmed in the outline, they would not have been subject to change during detailed minor changes
  204. [1/22/2015 10:32:10 PM] Carson Daly: detailed minor changes could only change new information that was added during details, they could not change information that was present in the outline
  205. [1/22/2015 10:32:46 PM] Jabberwock xeno: So each step of minor changes can't change something that was already changed or info that was confirmed before the last set of mionor changes?
  206. [1/22/2015 10:32:49 PM] Carson Daly: (i use past tense because i get the impression maruno has a totally different idea for how to handle details now)
  207. [1/22/2015 10:33:05 PM] Carson Daly: correct. if right now, a minor change gets rid of the museum, no future round of minor changes can add it back
  208. [1/22/2015 10:33:11 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I didn't even know that
  209. [1/22/2015 10:33:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: okay
  210. [1/22/2015 10:33:50 PM] Carson Daly: the reason for that is to prevent people who are butthurt about a change that they don't like from continuing to submit the same shit over and over again
  211. [1/24/2015 3:48:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: so
  212. [1/24/2015 3:48:49 PM] Jabberwock xeno: chao
  213. [1/24/2015 3:48:51 PM] Jabberwock xeno: carson
  214. [1/24/2015 3:49:03 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and sketcher since you are on
  215. [1/24/2015 3:49:04 PM] Jabberwock xeno: well
  216. [1/24/2015 3:49:05 PM] Jabberwock xeno: shi
  217. [1/24/2015 3:49:14 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Chao, read what carson said after you went to bed
  218. [1/24/2015 3:49:19 PM] Jabberwock xeno: sketcher, read the whole chat
  219. [1/24/2015 4:11:31 PM] Chaoguy: I read what Carson said. Based Carson is based.
  220. [1/24/2015 4:11:49 PM] Chaoguy: So, as this goes against the outline, I am more than happy to overrule that question.
  221. [1/24/2015 4:12:06 PM] Chaoguy: HOWEVER; does this need to be replaced with another question to fix anything?
  222. [1/24/2015 4:13:09 PM] Chaoguy: Or leave it alone and post Carson's comment (removing stuff about Maj to prevent revolt purely based on who's involved) and explain "that question is now null and void. Detal people can't change where A, B and C go. But community can still decide who A, B and C are."
  223. [1/24/2015 4:13:48 PM] Jabberwock xeno: gimmie a sec
  224. [1/24/2015 4:18:35 PM] Carson Daly: i would basically put something like "due to the fact that minor changes to the plot do not encompass changes to the underlying plot survey structure, question X from survey 1 is being invalidated. submissions which were ignored in favor of that question are now being included as their own questions in this survey. we apologize for any confusion or inconvenience"
  225. [1/24/2015 4:18:50 PM] Carson Daly: but obvi you should talk to plotchat people about that, don't just take my word for it
  226. [1/24/2015 4:19:52 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'd do what carson says, including the "ask plotchat about it first" part.
  227.  
  228. Now that both you (chao) and sketcher know what the issue is, and what the concern is for doing it this way is (voter bias) having that convo should be easier
  229. [1/24/2015 4:20:20 PM] Jabberwock xeno: in the mean time, we can continue onto the other questions while that is being worked out amongst yourselves in pltochat (but keep me up to date on that bit)
  230. [1/24/2015 4:20:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'll be ready to start in about 20 mins, how long are you gonna be around for today chao?
  231. [1/24/2015 4:20:55 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I ask because I plan on going food shopping later
  232. [1/24/2015 4:21:24 PM] Carson Daly: it's the weekend so i actually wasn't planning on hanging around all day, was mainly just showing up to get the ability survey about x_x
  233. [1/24/2015 4:22:20 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Carson, TBH, I don't think you need to be here if you don't want now that that was cleared up.
  234. [1/24/2015 4:22:29 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'd LIKE you to stay, but you don't need to
  235. [1/24/2015 4:22:49 PM] Carson Daly: i'll check back in later on, so if you mention my name, i'll respond to whatever when i have time
  236. [1/24/2015 4:22:51 PM] Jabberwock xeno: k
  237. [1/24/2015 4:33:26 PM] Chaoguy: I'm playing vidya right now
  238. [1/24/2015 4:33:45 PM] Chaoguy: I would not be giving you my full attention, so I will talk Monday if you want.
  239. [1/24/2015 4:34:31 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Monday is fine, I'm just starting to get a little iffy since almost a week has passed since the new survey was posted and that only leaves a week for us to disscuss this stuff and for me to take the survey
  240. [1/24/2015 4:52:25 PM] Chaoguy: Take the survey now
  241. [1/24/2015 4:52:34 PM] Chaoguy: Any issues with it will be sorted afterwards.
  242. [1/24/2015 4:52:41 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
  243. [1/24/2015 4:52:42 PM] Jabberwock xeno: okay
  244. [1/24/2015 4:52:59 PM] Chaoguy: Like how we solved an issue from Survey 1 today, we can solve any issues with survey 2 LONG after it is closed.
  245. [1/24/2015 4:53:10 PM] Jabberwock xeno: okay
  246. [1/24/2015 4:53:10 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Chao i'm sorry it seems like I don't have a lot of faith in you, it's not you, I've just seen people fuck up so many times
  247. [1/24/2015 4:53:15 PM] Chaoguy: I also think analysing the results and re-writing the outline will take a long time.
  248. [1/24/2015 4:53:22 PM] Chaoguy: I ain;t perfect.
  249. [1/24/2015 4:53:39 PM] Chaoguy: I fucked up understanding what you meant.
  250. [1/24/2015 4:53:39 PM] Jabberwock xeno: as I've said before, I really apperciate you taking the time to go over this stuff with me
  251. [1/24/2015 4:53:52 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [Saturday, January 24, 2015 4:53 PM] Chaoguy:
  252.  
  253. <<< I fucked up understanding what you meant.Nah, i just suck at wording stuff
  254. [1/24/2015 4:54:04 PM] Chaoguy: But with people like you, Carson, and Sketcher, I think you'll help point out any flaws.
  255. [1/25/2015 8:41:29 PM] Chaoguy: Ok, so Maruno replied
  256. [1/25/2015 8:41:43 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Chao can you just tell us tommorow
  257. [1/25/2015 8:41:46 PM] Chaoguy: Ok.
  258. [1/25/2015 8:41:48 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I don't want to get into this tonight
  259. [1/25/2015 8:41:49 PM] Chaoguy: Would be better.
  260. [1/25/2015 8:41:49 PM] Jabberwock xeno: thanks
  261. [1/25/2015 8:41:56 PM] Chaoguy: Don't let me forget.
  262. [1/25/2015 8:42:08 PM] Chaoguy: It kinda treads old ground with the first comment.
  263. [1/25/2015 8:42:17 PM] Chaoguy: But it should work out.
  264. [1/25/2015 8:44:33 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [Sunday, January 25, 2015 8:41 PM] Chaoguy:
  265.  
  266. <<< Don't let me forget.I won't
  267. [1/25/2015 8:44:35 PM] Jabberwock xeno: unless I forget
  268. [1/25/2015 8:44:37 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ;P
  269. [1/25/2015 8:44:42 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ;p
  270. [1/25/2015 8:44:43 PM] Jabberwock xeno: :P
  271. [1/25/2015 8:45:46 PM] Chaoguy: Aaaah, the pain of remembering shit
  272. [1/25/2015 11:35:12 PM] Carson Daly: taking the survey now, just a note - question 26 says "orbs/cores are used in some manner" as an option, but as of now, the orbs are not "cores" in any sense of the word, so this option is flawed
  273. [1/26/2015 7:00:31 AM] Jabberwock xeno: [Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:35 PM] Carson Daly:
  274.  
  275. <<< taking the survey now, somebody remind me to do this once we are done speaking later
  276. [1/26/2015 10:08:05 AM] Carson Daly: take the survey maj
  277. [1/26/2015 3:42:40 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [Monday, January 26, 2015 7:00 AM] Jabberwock xeno:
  278.  
  279. <<< once we are done speaking later
  280. [1/26/2015 6:37:48 PM] Chaoguy: I posted to plot chat about what happened with the Admin locking issue.
  281. [1/26/2015 6:38:03 PM] Chaoguy: Maruno replied:
  282. [Saturday, January 24, 2015 4:39 PM] Maruno:
  283.  
  284. <<< There's no harm in leaving Admin assignments up to the detailed plot. Outline will just state WHERE an Admin needs to show up, but won't state which particular one it is.
  285. Indeed, doing this wouldn't go against the so-called "point of the outline" - everything written in the outline regarding Admins will still be final; it will just happen to not NAME the Admins, thus allowing them to be interchangeable.
  286. Majora's missed suggestion was in fact incorporated into a better question, which was the first one in the last survey.
  287. [1/26/2015 6:39:22 PM | Edited 6:39:45 PM] Chaoguy: By "last survey" I assume he means Minor changes 1?
  288. [1/26/2015 6:39:29 PM] Carson Daly: the harm is that people will go "this plot has Erion Admin at location X instead of Eronze Admin, and i like that better, so i'll vote for this plot," instead of "this plot has better details, so i'll vote for this plot"
  289. [1/26/2015 6:39:57 PM] Chaoguy: Fine.
  290. [1/26/2015 6:39:59 PM] Chaoguy: Good enough for me.
  291. [1/26/2015 6:40:18 PM] Carson Daly: same reason why we wanted to keep ricardo/rival out of outline - otherwise, people would've only voted on ricardo and not on the actual plots
  292. [1/26/2015 6:41:07 PM] Chaoguy: Ok, cool.
  293. [1/26/2015 6:41:22 PM] Chaoguy: So, taking comments from this chat, I think I can make a annoucment.
  294. [1/26/2015 6:44:52 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'm in the middle of making dinner
  295. [1/26/2015 6:44:56 PM | Edited 6:45:21 PM] Jabberwock xeno: once i'm done we can talk and I can read what I missed
  296. [1/26/2015 6:45:12 PM] Jabberwock xeno: chao hopefully you will be on for a few more hours
  297. [1/26/2015 6:47:55 PM] Chaoguy: I'll try.
  298. [1/26/2015 6:48:03 PM] Chaoguy: Currently typing up announcement for thread.
  299. [1/26/2015 6:54:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: announcement for what
  300. [1/26/2015 6:55:42 PM] Chaoguy: The fixing of the admin issue.
  301. [1/26/2015 6:56:47 PM] Chaoguy: This photo is unavailable
  302. [1/26/2015 6:57:06 PM] Chaoguy: Based on this plan, when should people vote on Evil Team motivations/goals?
  303. [1/26/2015 6:57:08 PM] Jabberwock xeno: well could you tell us how it's being fixed before you announce it
  304. [1/26/2015 6:57:25 PM] Chaoguy: 5 or 7.
  305. [1/26/2015 6:57:27 PM] Chaoguy: Yeah, I will do.
  306. [1/26/2015 6:57:33 PM] Chaoguy: Post plan here
  307. [1/26/2015 6:57:39 PM] Chaoguy: get feedback.
  308. [1/26/2015 6:57:46 PM] Chaoguy: Post to plot chat, wait 24 hours.
  309. [1/26/2015 6:58:02 PM] Chaoguy: Then release to thread.
  310. [1/26/2015 6:58:11 PM] Jabberwock xeno: okay, in the mean time, we can move on to toher comments as soon as I get my shit up, which should be in the next 10-20 mins
  311. [1/26/2015 6:58:59 PM] Chaoguy: Yeah, sure.
  312. [1/26/2015 6:59:20 PM] Chaoguy: But that question I asked is super important for the announcement plan.
  313. [1/26/2015 6:59:28 PM] Jabberwock xeno: oh
  314. [1/26/2015 6:59:38 PM] Chaoguy: We will go through your other comments, but please anwser it if you get time.
  315. [1/26/2015 7:00:30 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Well, we have what we have from the outline, we will go over personality traits and presumbly other details for specific characters in the chariizriczation survey, and then detailed plot wrirters can go into more details without conflicting with what info is already convirmed by then, I think
  316. [1/26/2015 7:00:34 PM] Jabberwock xeno: carson is that accurate?
  317. [1/26/2015 7:10:22 PM] Jabberwock xeno: carson?
  318. [1/26/2015 7:10:42 PM] Chaoguy: OK.
  319. [1/26/2015 7:10:51 PM] Chaoguy: So here's my proposed announcment.
  320. [1/26/2015 7:11:10 PM] Chaoguy: Keep in mind it is WIP, and has 2 possible plans. (BOth plans could also be posted and we survey that as well)
  321. [1/26/2015 7:11:33 PM] Jabberwock xeno: k. still trying to get my stuff ready but i'll rea it when you post it
  322. [1/26/2015 7:11:38 PM | Removed 7:28:00 PM] Chaoguy: This message has been removed.
  323. [1/26/2015 7:11:50 PM] Chaoguy:
  324.  
  325. Checks to do before posting: Read the damn Plot for anwsers. That includes me.
  326. - Does plot only list Admins as "A first, then B, then C." Or does it go "When B appears, A is also there."
  327. - Does letting people design the concept for ET motives/goals before the detail stage work? Or is that part only up to detail stage?
  328. [1/26/2015 7:28:11 PM] Chaoguy: Ok, New rough announcements and plans:
  329. [1/26/2015 7:28:22 PM] Chaoguy:
  330. The problem:
  331. Originally plot was set up so that the outline was final (after minor changes to it), and although anything in the outline could be elaborated on in details; and any details that don't conflict with the plot outline can also be added then, nothing in the outline could be changed in any way after minor changes; except for programming limitations.
  332.  
  333. When the outline was written, it had Admin A in one place, B in another place, C in another place, etc. If it were confirmed with those locations, they could not be changed by details period.
  334.  
  335. With this knowledge in mind, some people submitted a change ("I want admins A and B switched" for example), knowing that if this change were approved, the order (with A and B switched) would be final and could not be changed by details.
  336.  
  337. These submission were not included in the survey. Instead, plot chat members at the time included a question that said "regardless of what the outline ends up saying, even after minor changes, detailed plot should still be able to change whether admin A or B is in a certain place"
  338.  
  339. This is directly opposed to the point of the outline. Which is bad because if it is not final and unchanging, during details people will vote based on which things from the outline that are changed that they like best, instead of which details they like best. I.e. People voting for "I prefer Admin C to appear earlier" instead of the overall changes.
  340.  
  341. This screws over people whose submissions were made under the impression that, if approved, they would be final and unchanging.
  342.  
  343.  
  344. Proposed Solution:
  345. Due to the fact that minor changes to the plot do not encompass changes to the underlying plot survey structure, the fact the detail plot submissions will have the final say is being invalidated. We will be holding a special survey to deal with this matter.
  346.  
  347. Plan A:
  348. During this stage of the plot (minor changes for plot), people can vote on what Admins (A, B, and C) appear where in the plot. As long as it says "Admin A appears here", it can be changed to any of the others.
  349. Before the detail stage we will open submissions for plot important characters characterizations (Admins, the Leader, Northington, and other Major plot-related NPCs). Then during the detail stage, detail authors CAN NOT change what order the Admins appear in, nor can they perfom actions against their characterization. (E.g. Stella is unlikely to be intimidated by force, however she might buckle if someone else was at risk. Likewise, an Admin who hates X would avoid doing X, or would at least complain about doing it.)
  350.  
  351. tl;dr: People decide what order admins appear in, then people decide their characterization, then detail can have them do more stuff.
  352.  
  353.  
  354. Plan B:
  355. Admin appearences are locked in order of A, B, C. Outline plot means Admins at this time have no motives or appearences outside of their battle. Characterization submissions and survey occurs, followed by Detailed sumbissions. Detailed cannot change where Admins appear, but can have them appear else where (but not battle). (I.e. When you first meet Admin B, Admin A is talking to them about how strong you are).
  356.  
  357. tl;dr: Admins are locked in order of A, B, C. Then people decide their characterization, Then detail can have them do more stuff.
  358.  
  359.  
  360. Plan C:
  361. What is currently happening. Admins are locked in their current order, then people can submit characterization, then detail can vote on what order the Admins appear in. If people don't like it, they can re-work it during feedback.
  362.  
  363.  
  364.  
  365. We apologize for any confusion or inconvenience.
  366. [1/26/2015 7:37:51 PM] Jabberwock xeno: chao sorry this is taking so long,w ill read over that in a sec and we can get going
  367. [1/26/2015 7:41:39 PM] Chaoguy: It's ok
  368. [1/26/2015 7:41:45 PM] Chaoguy: I keep updating it anyway.
  369. [1/26/2015 7:41:54 PM] Chaoguy: TBA, I might be better getting Carson to talk about it.
  370. [1/26/2015 7:52:02 PM] Chaoguy: Woah.
  371. [1/26/2015 7:52:10 PM] Chaoguy: Just looked at wiki plot
  372. [1/26/2015 7:52:22 PM] Chaoguy: Do you know how fucked the Admin order is?
  373. [1/26/2015 7:53:57 PM] Chaoguy: Keep in mind this isn't confirmed:
  374. [1/26/2015 7:53:57 PM] Chaoguy: Admin 1 (appear), Admin 3 (appear), 3 (battle), 3 again (battle), Leader (battle), 1 (battle), Admin 2 (battle), Leader (battle)
  375. [1/26/2015 8:01:19 PM] Chaoguy: Oh boy.
  376. [1/26/2015 8:01:25 PM] Chaoguy: There's more issues than I realised.
  377. [1/26/2015 8:01:42 PM] Chaoguy: Why was I surveying extra encouters if Admin appearences are locked
  378. [1/26/2015 8:01:53 PM] Chaoguy: Fuck.
  379. [1/26/2015 8:10:34 PM] Chaoguy: Just caught this as well:
  380. [1/26/2015 8:10:37 PM] Chaoguy: "The plot cannot use any of the following as essential plot locations: a resort tower, any kind of burial grounds, wind farm, solar energy farm. "
  381. [1/26/2015 8:11:01 PM] Chaoguy: So i need to drop the Burial Grounds suggestion from this survey. But I'll keep it up for now.
  382. [1/26/2015 8:47:00 PM] Chaoguy: Yo, Maj. Are we going over comments tonight?
  383. [1/26/2015 8:51:22 PM] Jabberwock xeno: we are
  384. [1/26/2015 8:51:23 PM] Jabberwock xeno: sorry
  385. [1/26/2015 8:51:29 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I got distracted
  386. [1/26/2015 8:51:36 PM] Jabberwock xeno: gimmie a few mins
  387. [1/26/2015 8:53:09 PM] Chaoguy: It's ok.
  388. [1/26/2015 8:56:46 PM] Jabberwock xeno: okay, chao
  389. [1/26/2015 8:56:59 PM] Jabberwock xeno: gimmie the preview for the current survey again real fast
  390. [1/26/2015 8:57:40 PM] Chaoguy: ok
  391. [1/26/2015 8:58:29 PM] Chaoguy: Wait, don't you want to talk about your comments from the last survey?
  392. [1/26/2015 8:59:08 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I do
  393. [1/26/2015 8:59:15 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I just lost my window for plot related stuff
  394. [1/26/2015 8:59:19 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and that was a tab in it
  395. [1/26/2015 8:59:59 PM] Chaoguy: So do you want THIS survey's questions, the last one, or your comments?
  396. [1/26/2015 9:01:11 PM] Jabberwock xeno: this surveys questions, I already have the others up
  397. [1/26/2015 9:02:22 PM] Jabberwock xeno: also I read your thing. I don't think C should even be an option, but the fact you included it means you think otherwise
  398. [1/26/2015 9:02:25 PM] Jabberwock xeno: so go ahead and post that
  399. [1/26/2015 9:05:04 PM] Chaoguy: Including C because 80% of the vote was in it's favour. If people still want it after explaining, more power to them.
  400. [1/26/2015 9:05:26 PM] Jabberwock xeno: fair enough
  401. [1/26/2015 9:09:44 PM] Chaoguy: Lemme do this thread post
  402. [1/26/2015 9:10:22 PM] Chaoguy: https://www.surveymonkey.com/create/survey/preview?sm=8MjgWDIHr1hTCwYCiC19dOpo5ga2qhnGLjpYsTOmLiHcP3APURVR2MsSuv0s_2BoKI
  403. [1/26/2015 9:51:50 PM] Jabberwock xeno: whoops
  404. [1/26/2015 10:00:42 PM] Chaoguy: Woops because it's 3AM now or?
  405. [1/26/2015 10:01:37 PM] Jabberwock xeno: whoops because I didn't see you posted that till an hour later
  406. [1/26/2015 10:01:44 PM] Jabberwock xeno: i'm guess it's too late for us to start now?
  407. [1/26/2015 10:02:07 PM] Chaoguy: ... I do have a mild headache right now.
  408. [1/26/2015 10:02:12 PM] Chaoguy: So I would appriciate sleep.
  409. [1/26/2015 10:02:17 PM] Chaoguy: Actually, holdon
  410. [1/26/2015 10:02:21 PM] Chaoguy: Ah no.
  411. [1/26/2015 10:02:33 PM] Chaoguy: I made comments for the first 5 of your comments in the last survey.
  412. [1/26/2015 10:02:36 PM] Chaoguy: AH WAIT
  413. [1/26/2015 10:02:41 PM] Chaoguy: I have your comments for this surve
  414. [1/26/2015 10:02:44 PM] Chaoguy: gimme a sec
  415. [1/26/2015 10:03:01 PM] Jabberwock xeno: actually
  416. [1/26/2015 10:03:08 PM] Jabberwock xeno: what time do you think you will get on tommorow
  417. [1/26/2015 10:03:21 PM] Chaoguy: Fuck knows.
  418. [1/26/2015 10:03:28 PM] Chaoguy: I usually aim for
  419. [1/26/2015 10:03:34 PM] Chaoguy: 10pm
  420. [1/26/2015 10:03:40 PM] Jabberwock xeno: man, can't you quit work so you can go over stuff with me :P
  421. [1/26/2015 10:03:41 PM] Chaoguy: But that can ulter.
  422. [1/26/2015 10:03:50 PM] Chaoguy: Ha ha ha ha fuck off
  423. [1/26/2015 10:03:54 PM] Jabberwock xeno: : 3
  424. [1/26/2015 10:03:58 PM] Chaoguy: Anywho
  425. [1/26/2015 10:04:05 PM] Chaoguy: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15TR8lIEbq3Phm0lpR99ZMoHdt7CqDJg5QBNCfbSlvmM/edit
  426. [1/26/2015 10:04:11 PM] Chaoguy: 4. Might have missed some comments
  427. [1/26/2015 10:04:22 PM | Edited 10:04:43 PM] Chaoguy: I did go through comments from last survey carefully with the group.
  428. [1/26/2015 10:05:00 PM] Jabberwock xeno: is that document my doccument from before the survey was made, or is that from my comments in the survey
  429. [1/26/2015 10:05:21 PM] Chaoguy: Documents for comments on my survey
  430. [1/26/2015 10:05:29 PM] Chaoguy: THe dronia museam question
  431. [1/26/2015 10:05:36 PM] Chaoguy: If the exhibit is not voted to be removed, would you rather have it in a different location than a museum in Dronia?
  432. [1/26/2015 10:05:51 PM] Chaoguy: Some options were not on as they contradicted what people voted on in the last survey
  433. [1/26/2015 10:05:51 PM] Jabberwock xeno: wait
  434. [1/26/2015 10:06:27 PM] Jabberwock xeno: No, that document ws my feedback for the survey before it was even posted, when the questions were worded ifferently
  435. [1/26/2015 10:06:35 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I think you got mixed up
  436. [1/26/2015 10:06:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Just, how much longer are you gonna be on tonight
  437. [1/26/2015 10:06:47 PM] Chaoguy: Aaaaaaaaaaaaah
  438. [1/26/2015 10:06:48 PM] Chaoguy: Fek
  439. [1/26/2015 10:06:56 PM] Chaoguy: Tempted to go to bed now.
  440. [1/26/2015 10:06:58 PM] Chaoguy: OK
  441. [1/26/2015 10:06:59 PM] Chaoguy: NEW PLAN
  442. [1/26/2015 10:07:04 PM] Chaoguy: Go through the preview:
  443. [1/26/2015 10:07:09 PM] Chaoguy: https://www.surveymonkey.com/create/survey/preview?sm=8MjgWDIHr1hTCwYCiC19dOpo5ga2qhnGLjpYsTOmLiHcP3APURVR2MsSuv0s_2BoKI
  444. [1/26/2015 10:07:10 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [Monday, January 26, 2015 10:06 PM] Chaoguy:
  445.  
  446. <<< NEW PLANwait
  447. [1/26/2015 10:07:11 PM] Jabberwock xeno: no
  448. [1/26/2015 10:07:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: chao
  449. [1/26/2015 10:07:14 PM] Jabberwock xeno: argh
  450. [1/26/2015 10:07:26 PM] Chaoguy: (Or go through the actual survey since you have until sunday I think)
  451. [1/26/2015 10:07:32 PM] Chaoguy: see what questions are bad
  452. [1/26/2015 10:07:35 PM] Chaoguy: write it down
  453. [1/26/2015 10:07:41 PM] Chaoguy: talk to me about it in future.
  454. [1/26/2015 10:08:37 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'm going to vote in the actual survey
  455.  
  456. tommorow, we will go through my comments in last survey, which is listed here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-8SJ2NVPV/browse/ under respondant 40 in the indivual responses tab
  457.  
  458. Once that is done, then it should be easy for us to go through the questions in the current survey and see if anything needs to be corrected there
  459. [1/26/2015 10:09:18 PM] Chaoguy: Cool.
  460. [1/26/2015 10:09:21 PM] Chaoguy: I'm happy with that.
  461. [1/26/2015 10:09:33 PM] Chaoguy: I already jotted down replies to the first 4/5 questions.
  462. [1/27/2015 9:21:56 AM] Carson Daly: sorry y'all, i'll read up on this now
  463. [1/27/2015 9:29:14 AM] Carson Daly: On 1/27/15, at 6:26 AM, Carson Daly wrote:
  464. > holy jeez this plot business is a mess
  465. > problem: people think the admins show up/are battled in weird order
  466. > solution: people submit minor changes that make them show up/be battled in not weird order
  467.  
  468. On 1/27/15, at 6:27 AM, Carson Daly wrote:
  469. > any other approach is unnecessarily convoluted and just a cop out for people who are worried they won't like how minor changes turn out
  470. [1/27/2015 9:30:22 AM] Carson Daly: people seem confused about what "admin 1," "admin 2," "admin 3" mean, for some reason, and obviously right now those are just placeholders to make sure the same appearance is the same admin
  471. [1/27/2015 9:30:51 AM] Carson Daly: the 2 reasonable approaches would be:
  472. [1/27/2015 9:33:18 AM] Carson Daly: 1) don't deal with the admins yet, do characterization and say "admin 1 = hothead male admin," "admin 2 = reserved female admin," "admin 3 = comic relief admin" or whatever, and then knowing that, let minor changes round 2 (after characterization) decide which appear where and when
  473.  
  474. 2) choose where and when "admin 1," "admin 2," and "admin 3" appear during the current round of changes, lock these appearances. then, in characterization, people can say "based on where/when they appear, admin 3 should be female hothead, admin 1 should be oil nig, and admin 2 should be androgynous"
  475. [1/27/2015 9:34:01 AM] Carson Daly: neither of these approaches involves either the characterization of any admin or their appearances up for changing in the details, which will make the details better overall
  476. [1/28/2015 12:51:14 AM] Jabberwock xeno: chao i'm going to bed
  477. [1/28/2015 12:51:36 AM] Jabberwock xeno: hopefully tommorow you'll be around and we can go over stuff, you should probably repost your plan to get more ffeeback
  478. [1/28/2015 3:22:25 PM] Chaoguy: Yo Maj
  479. [1/28/2015 3:22:36 PM] Chaoguy: Gonna post in thread, then I'm free for the evening.
  480. [1/28/2015 3:29:28 PM] Jabberwock xeno: okay, cool
  481. [1/28/2015 3:29:32 PM] Jabberwock xeno: you are on really early today
  482. [1/28/2015 3:29:45 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'm gonna go food shopping in like 30 mins but then i'll be free, too
  483. [1/28/2015 3:30:04 PM] Jabberwock xeno: (you should repost your thing since you didn't get too many responses, I responded as anon and maybe 2 other people did)
  484. [1/28/2015 3:30:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: link me to the post when you do post
  485. [1/28/2015 3:30:49 PM] Chaoguy: [Tuesday, January 27, 2015 9:32 AM] Carson Daly:
  486.  
  487. <<< 1) don't deal with the admins yet, do characterization and say "admin 1 = hothead male admin," "admin 2 = reserved female admin," "admin 3 = comic relief admin" or whatever, and then knowing that, let minor changes round 2 (after characterization) decide which appear where and when
  488.  
  489. 2) choose where and when "admin 1," "admin 2," and "admin 3" appear during the current round of changes, lock these appearances. then, in characterization, people can say "based on where/when they appear, admin 3 should be female hothead, admin 1 should be oil nig, and admin 2 should be androgynous"
  490. neither of these approaches involves either the characterization of any admin or their appearances up for changing in the details, which will make the details better overallExactly what I want to do, but giving them the option prevents complaints. I'm pretty certain people will pick that combination.
  491. [1/28/2015 3:31:22 PM] Chaoguy: [Wednesday, January 28, 2015 3:29 PM] Jabberwock xeno:
  492.  
  493. <<< link me to the post when you do posthttps://boards.4chan.org/vp/thread/22658591#p22662403
  494. [1/28/2015 3:31:42 PM] Jabberwock xeno: well that was wuick, will check in a sec, need to go do something for 5 mins
  495. [1/28/2015 3:31:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: *wuick
  496. [1/28/2015 3:31:49 PM] Jabberwock xeno: *wuick
  497. [1/28/2015 3:31:49 PM] Chaoguy: Kewl.
  498. [1/28/2015 3:31:52 PM] Jabberwock xeno: FUCK
  499. [1/28/2015 3:31:53 PM] Chaoguy: pfft
  500. [1/28/2015 3:31:57 PM] Jabberwock xeno: *quick
  501. [1/28/2015 4:20:06 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [Wednesday, January 28, 2015 4:19 PM] Jabberwock xeno:
  502.  
  503. <<< I have to leave to go food shopping now anywaysI'll be back in a few hours
  504. [1/28/2015 4:24:49 PM] Chaoguy: O-Ok.
  505. [1/28/2015 6:10:38 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Chao's clear lack of understanding of how plot works aside
  506. [1/28/2015 6:11:10 PM] Jabberwock xeno: My minor change altering the order of the admins was grouped togmether with my change putting the golems in the plot
  507. [1/28/2015 6:11:14 PM] Jabberwock xeno: so how will that be handled?
  508. [1/28/2015 6:11:44 PM] Jabberwock xeno: will that change of mine be handled just in regards to golem placement, iondepednent of which admin is where?
  509. [1/28/2015 6:11:53 PM] Jabberwock xeno: If so, then this all works out functionally
  510. [1/28/2015 6:12:20 PM] Carson Daly: let me read over your submission and give you my opinion, since it sounds like i'll be doing a lot of consulting work to help you and plotchat communicate better
  511. [1/28/2015 6:12:24 PM] Jabberwock xeno: but that still leaves the issue of chao clearly having no idea what he's doing
  512.  
  513. (I'm sorry, but unless I misunderstood what you said chao, that seems to be the case)
  514. [1/28/2015 6:12:36 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I don't mean to be insulting
  515. [1/28/2015 6:12:40 PM] Jabberwock xeno: but I call thinks as I see it
  516. [1/28/2015 6:13:13 PM] Carson Daly: ok, i'm specifically reading over "change: add golems to the plot"
  517. if you would like me to address another section, let me know, but don't automatically assume that me saying something about this section applies to all sections
  518. [1/28/2015 6:41:34 PM] Carson Daly: maj don't worry i haven't forgotten this, i'm also busy doing stuff at work right now so it might need to wait until i get home
  519. [1/28/2015 8:32:16 PM] Carson Daly: holy shit maj there's no way you could've thought this would all be surveyed as one package
  520. [1/28/2015 8:32:40 PM] Carson Daly: for one thing, half the stuff you've written here is detail that doesn't belong in the outline anyways, but you're just trying to get it put in the outline so that it can't be changed in details
  521. [1/28/2015 8:33:26 PM] Carson Daly: for another, you totally misrepresented your change
  522. [1/28/2015 8:33:40 PM] Carson Daly: you didn't say "admin A should go here, admin B here, etc"
  523. [1/28/2015 8:34:06 PM] Carson Daly: you just said "we should have the admins have the golems that match whichever spirit they catch, everyone should then come up with a bunch of relevant encounters"
  524. [1/28/2015 8:34:10 PM] Carson Daly: like what the fuck?
  525. [1/28/2015 8:36:03 PM] Carson Daly: also, i'm reading through the submissions
  526. [1/28/2015 8:36:30 PM] Carson Daly: and it seems that "golems unlock the gold city" wasn't actually proposed in tandem with something else, it was probably one of the things suggested in a "make your suggestion here" box in the first survey
  527. [1/28/2015 8:36:45 PM] Carson Daly: which means that it's totally disconnected from your proposed change about assigning golems to each of the admins
  528. [1/28/2015 8:37:15 PM] Carson Daly: so in response to your previous question, if people chose for the admins to no longer have the golems, that would have no bearing on whether or not people wanted the golems to unlock the gold city
  529. [1/28/2015 8:41:37 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ?
  530. [1/28/2015 8:41:44 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'll respond to all of that in a bit
  531. [1/28/2015 8:42:12 PM] Jabberwock xeno: when are you going to bed
  532. [1/28/2015 8:42:20 PM] Jabberwock xeno: so I know when I have to respond by
  533. [1/28/2015 8:42:23 PM] Carson Daly: later, but i probably won't be on skype all night
  534. [1/28/2015 8:42:29 PM] Jabberwock xeno: give me a time
  535. [1/28/2015 8:42:36 PM] Carson Daly: 20 minutes
  536. [1/28/2015 8:42:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: fuck
  537. [1/28/2015 8:42:54 PM] Jabberwock xeno: remind me to respond tommorow morning then
  538. [1/28/2015 8:42:57 PM] Carson Daly: ok
  539. [1/28/2015 8:42:59 PM] Jabberwock xeno: because you misunderstood
  540. [1/28/2015 8:43:09 PM] Jabberwock xeno: (not reeally the right word)
  541. [1/28/2015 8:45:10 PM] Carson Daly: well let me try to address what i think your concern is
  542. [1/28/2015 8:45:36 PM] Carson Daly: you had a constellation of changes with the intention of them being connected, and they were separated, and there's elements that you wouldn't want to be approved if the others weren't also improved
  543. [1/28/2015 8:45:56 PM] Jabberwock xeno: That is a concern, but that's not at all what the current issue is
  544. [1/28/2015 8:46:02 PM] Carson Daly: looking over what you've submitted, though, even though you submitted all those changes as connected, each of those changes was also submitted individually by other people
  545. [1/28/2015 8:46:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I think you greatly misunderstood what me and maruno disscussed
  546. [1/28/2015 8:46:17 PM] Jabberwock xeno: but i'll clarify overnight
  547. [1/28/2015 8:46:21 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and we can go over it tommorow
  548. [1/28/2015 8:46:21 PM] Carson Daly: okie dokie
  549. [3:36:02 AM] Jabberwock xeno: fuck it i'll respond in the morning
  550. [3:36:34 AM] Jabberwock xeno: also we have our work cut out with us with speaking to chao
  551. [3:36:58 AM] Jabberwock xeno: me being overly rude earlier didn't help/won't help matters
  552. [9:09:40 AM] Carson Daly: i'm awake whenever you're ready
  553. [3:49:34 PM] Jabberwock xeno: bleh
  554. [3:49:40 PM] Jabberwock xeno: give me a bit
  555. [3:50:58 PM] Jabberwock xeno: actually, one at a time
  556. [3:51:03 PM] Jabberwock xeno: one by one
  557. [3:51:15 PM] Jabberwock xeno: go over the issues you said last night, let me respond, then go on to the next one
  558. [5:01:53 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Hey, so
  559. [5:02:16 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I might end up being busy for the next hour or 2. If not, I will be ready to go over stuff
  560. [5:02:23 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'll know for sure in about 5.
  561. [5:02:26 PM] Jabberwock xeno: *5 mins
  562. [5:02:28 PM] Carson Daly: got some bad news for you buddy
  563. [5:02:30 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ?
  564. [5:02:43 PM] Carson Daly: [4:16 PM] Chaoguy:
  565.  
  566. <<< Carson, I'm gonna be ignoring Maj.
  567. [5:02:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Why?
  568. [5:03:02 PM] Carson Daly: [4:16 PM] Chaoguy:
  569.  
  570. <<< I tried to listen to just one (1!!) of his comments, and it fucked me over and made the communities respect for plot even WORSE.
  571. [5:03:16 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Okayu
  572. [5:03:18 PM] Jabberwock xeno: listen
  573. [5:03:23 PM] Jabberwock xeno: That's not my fault
  574. [5:03:27 PM] Jabberwock xeno: there was a problem
  575. [5:03:30 PM] Carson Daly: i never said it was your fault
  576. [5:03:32 PM] Jabberwock xeno: you tried to fix it chao
  577. [5:03:38 PM] Jabberwock xeno: people bitch and whine
  578. [5:03:46 PM] Jabberwock xeno: they don't understand how this shit works
  579. [5:03:53 PM] Jabberwock xeno: you should have known going in this stuff would happen
  580. [5:03:58 PM] Jabberwock xeno: you made a commitment to me
  581. [5:04:03 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I expect you to keep it
  582. [5:04:22 PM] Jabberwock xeno: If you are worried about how other people think, then you shouldn't be doing plot
  583. [5:04:25 PM] Jabberwock xeno: plan and simple
  584. [5:04:33 PM] Jabberwock xeno: people are gonna hate the descisons you make no matter what
  585. [5:04:50 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I lost my cool yeesterday and I got mad at you
  586. [5:04:53 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and I apolgize for that
  587. [5:05:07 PM] Jabberwock xeno: but if you are just gonna give up because things got heated and people don't fucking understand how plot works
  588. [5:05:27 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Then I will not hold back, and I'm going to not wait on you with shit, and I WILL step on your toes
  589. [5:05:37 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and I don't give a damn how much problems that does or does not cause
  590. [5:05:42 PM] Jabberwock xeno: you said you would fix the problems
  591. [5:05:45 PM] Jabberwock xeno: no matter what
  592. [5:05:55 PM] Jabberwock xeno: keep your end of your promoise or I will make you keep it
  593. [5:06:26 PM] Jabberwock xeno: You are being a fuciing coward
  594. [5:07:03 PM | Edited 5:07:07 PM] Jabberwock xeno: If you want to make this difficult then by all fucking means I will obligge
  595. [5:07:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Carson
  596. [5:07:16 PM] Jabberwock xeno: You there?
  597. [5:07:27 PM] Carson Daly: yeah whatup
  598. [5:07:37 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'm done. I'm taking plot over
  599. [5:07:41 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'm buying a SM account
  600. [5:07:44 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and i'm hanling this
  601. [5:07:48 PM] Carson Daly: oh jeez
  602. [5:07:50 PM] Carson Daly: don't be a baby
  603. [5:07:54 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Excuse me
  604. [5:07:57 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'M being a babby?
  605. [5:08:10 PM] Carson Daly: that's pretty immature, yeah
  606. [5:08:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: No
  607. [5:08:15 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'm being realistic
  608. [5:08:21 PM] Jabberwock xeno: he's the one who made promises he's not keeping
  609. [5:08:41 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and is blocking me on skype because he's upset people are displeased with the way HE handled an issue he agreed was problematic
  610. [5:08:50 PM] Jabberwock xeno: He's the babby here
  611. [5:08:56 PM] Carson Daly: i never said he wasn't
  612. [5:09:17 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Tell him to get over himself so we can work together instead of against each other
  613. [5:09:30 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I don't care if plot has to ait another 4 years to get it done right
  614. [5:10:07 PM] Jabberwock xeno: if he doesn't want to work with me, fine
  615. [5:10:10 PM] Carson Daly: if you think people will just accept you "taking over" plot, you're delusional
  616. [5:10:22 PM] Carson Daly: and quite frankly, you aren't in a real life position to be dropping $200+ on some petty dispute anyways
  617. [5:10:30 PM] Jabberwock xeno: THis isn't a petty dispute
  618. [5:10:37 PM] Jabberwock xeno: this is me watching people fuck up for months
  619. [5:10:54 PM] Carson Daly: this is a free, for fun, hobby, internet, fan-made pokemon game being created on 4chan
  620. [5:11:06 PM] Carson Daly: literally every single dispute with regards to any element of this project whatsoever is petty by definition
  621. [5:11:14 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Fine
  622. [5:11:16 PM] Jabberwock xeno: call it petty
  623. [5:11:34 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I don't give a shit
  624. [5:11:39 PM] Jabberwock xeno: i'm so fucking done with everybody
  625. [5:11:40 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and everything
  626. [5:11:47 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and people breaking their promoises
  627. [5:11:52 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and blaming me for their own fucking mistakes
  628. [5:12:16 PM] Carson Daly: that's a reasonably frustration for you to have
  629. [5:12:39 PM] Jabberwock xeno: So are you going to support him or are you going to try to make sure shit goes right?
  630. [5:12:45 PM] Carson Daly: as much as i can say "it's skype, promises aren't real or enforceable here," this dispute has happened often enough that people know the implications of "promising" anything to you
  631. [5:13:27 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I don't want to have to turn this into a me vs somebody else thing
  632. [5:13:30 PM] Jabberwock xeno: but if I have to I will
  633. [5:13:38 PM] Carson Daly: as far as i'm concerned, nothing has changed with respect to plot as a result of this stupidity except for creating a 3rd minor changes survey just for admins, which isn't objectively good or bad, but is a stupid waste of time
  634. [5:13:59 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Tell chao to get a pair of balls and talk to me face to face, if he has a problem then have him explain it to me.
  635. [5:14:08 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'm angry because he's not explaining himself
  636. [5:14:14 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I told him this before
  637. [5:14:27 PM] Jabberwock xeno: that the one thing that pisses me off the msot is people not explaining their logic
  638. [5:14:29 PM] Jabberwock xeno: he knows that
  639. [5:14:52 PM] Carson Daly: i think it's rash for you to assume that all chao's statements are 100% of his opinion when in reality, the rest of plotchat contributes to his actions as well
  640. [5:14:58 PM] Jabberwock xeno: ?
  641. [5:15:07 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I thougt maruno gave up
  642. [5:15:13 PM] Carson Daly: chao is not the only person in plotchat
  643. [5:15:14 PM] Jabberwock xeno: So I should be yelling at them as well?
  644. [5:15:15 PM] Jabberwock xeno: good to know
  645. [5:15:19 PM] *** Jabberwock xeno added empty ***
  646. [5:15:21 PM] *** Jabberwock xeno added Maruno ***
  647. [5:15:25 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Okay
  648. [5:15:30 PM] Jabberwock xeno: what the fuck happened last night
  649. [5:15:54 PM] Carson Daly: sorry guys, feel free to leave if you want. you aren't really needed here
  650. [5:15:58 PM] Carson Daly: majora,
  651. [5:15:59 PM] Jabberwock xeno: My fucking ass
  652. [5:16:02 PM] Jabberwock xeno: you just told me
  653. [5:16:05 PM] Jabberwock xeno: that they were involved
  654. [5:16:10 PM] Carson Daly: you are complaining that chao isn't explaining his logic
  655. [5:16:17 PM] Carson Daly: i'm suggesting that's not exactly what the problem is
  656. [5:16:18 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Is it up to chao or not?
  657. [5:16:20 PM] Jabberwock xeno: If it's not
  658. [5:16:23 PM] Jabberwock xeno: then they are contributing to it
  659. [5:16:25 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and ergo
  660. [5:16:27 PM] Jabberwock xeno: it involves them
  661. [5:16:53 PM] Carson Daly: both us and them assume that chao is a reliable communicator
  662. [5:17:12 PM] Carson Daly: evidently, he hasn't done a very good job of explaining their arguments to us, so i can only assume he has done an equally poor job of explaining our arguments to them
  663. [5:17:38 PM] Jabberwock xeno: So then that's all the more reason why all of us communincating directly is important
  664. [5:17:41 PM] Jabberwock xeno: so they should be here
  665. [5:17:43 PM] Carson Daly: you can't just assume that everyone is out to get you and fuck over your idea, when the much more likely scenario is that they just reacted to what they were told
  666. [5:17:53 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [5:17 PM] Carson Daly:
  667.  
  668. <<< you can't just assume that everyone is out to get youThat's not an assumption
  669. [5:18:11 PM] Jabberwock xeno: You know that that's more evidence based then guesssing
  670. [5:18:22 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Peope hate me and don't listen to me
  671. [5:18:25 PM] Jabberwock xeno: even when I am right
  672. [5:18:32 PM] Jabberwock xeno: chao said he would listen to me and disscuss stuff with me
  673. [5:18:50 PM] Jabberwock xeno: then chickened out once he realized what that actually entailed and it wasn't going to be easy to just fix this shit
  674. [5:18:57 PM] Jabberwock xeno: from my POV
  675. [5:19:05 PM] Jabberwock xeno: that's what it looks like to me
  676. [5:19:08 PM] Jabberwock xeno: if I am wrong
  677. [5:19:11 PM] Jabberwock xeno: then he should correct that
  678. [5:19:25 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Because I don't want to be angry at somebody for something that's not correct
  679. [5:20:08 PM] Carson Daly: you shouldn't be angry at anybody
  680. [5:20:11 PM] Carson Daly: you being angry won't help anything
  681. [5:20:12 PM] Maruno: What the fuck's wrong with the main chat?
  682. [5:20:20 PM] Maruno: Talk about this in there.
  683. [5:20:20 PM] Carson Daly: sorry maruno, you can leave if you'd like
  684. [5:20:42 PM] Jabberwock xeno: [5:20 PM] Maruno:
  685.  
  686. <<< Talk about this in there.You want this to be moved in there?
  687. [5:20:56 PM] Maruno: It belongs in there.
  688. [5:21:01 PM] Jabberwock xeno: Fine
  689. [5:21:10 PM] Maruno: You have a problem with a part of the project, it's on-topic.
  690. [5:21:12 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I'll pastebin everything that has gone on in here for the past week
  691. [5:21:17 PM] Jabberwock xeno: thank you for not ignoring me
  692. [5:21:20 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and just leaving
  693. [5:21:24 PM] Jabberwock xeno: and actually responding
  694. [5:21:27 PM] Jabberwock xeno: I apperciate that maruno
  695. [5:21:54 PM] Maruno: Stop hiding away in your little mini-chats.
  696. [5:22:13 PM] Jabberwock xeno: It was an issue of practicality, not of me wanting secrecy
  697. [5:22:21 PM] Maruno: Sure it was.
  698. [5:22:29 PM] Maruno: As if we're not all in the main chat anyway.
  699. [5:22:54 PM] Maruno: As if main chat has a conversation going on in it already that you can't interrupt.
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