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COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF THE DEBATE

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  1. Shimon's answer alludes to a debate which got me interested to research more about the transcripts of the actual debate and after some research I found it in an academic paper as it appears in the translated form , [the citation for this Journal paper is][1] :
  2. <pre>
  3. A Shii-Jewish "Debate" (Munazara) in the Eighteenth Century By: Moreen, Vera B.
  4. | The Journal of the American Oriental Society, October-December 1999
  5. </pre>
  6.  
  7. As the OP asks for transcripts of such a debate, here is a verbatim transcript quoted from the paper, it is the debate between Sayyid Muhammad Mahdi Tabataba'i and the Jews of Du-l-Kifl :
  8. ()
  9.  
  10. > Da'ud began to speak, saying: "We and the community of Islam, from
  11. > among all other religious communities, are monotheists and are free of
  12. > polytheism. The rest of the groups and peoples, such as the
  13. > Zoroastrians and the Christians, associate partners with their lord
  14. > and worship idols and graven images. No others remain to profess God's
  15. > unity (tawhid), except the two groups [Jews and Muslims]."(64)
  16. >
  17. > Then the Sayyid said: "How is this? The Jews adopted the [Golden] Calf
  18. > and worshiped it, 'and they did not cease to cling to it until Moses
  19. > returned to them' from the appointed meeting with his Lord.(65) This
  20. > affair of theirs is too famous to need recalling and too well known to
  21. > be denied. Then they also worshiped idols in the time of Jeroboam b.
  22. > Nabat, who was one of the servants of Soloman b. David.(66) His story
  23. > is as follows: Soloman detected in him the desire to rule and
  24. > perceived in him marks of leadership and sovereignty. Ahijah of Shiloh
  25. > had informed Jeroboam of [Soloman's suspicion] and he [Ahijah] tore
  26. > the new garment he [Jeroboam] wore, ripping it into twelve pieces
  27. > giving him ten, saying: 'You will reign over this many [i.e. ten]
  28. > tribes of the children of Israel, and there will remain for Soloman
  29. > and his son Rehoboam and his sons only two tribes, namely Judah and
  30. > Benjamin.'(67) Then Soloman planned to kill Jeroboam, but Yeraboam b.
  31. > Nabat fled from Soloman to Shishak, the ruler of Egypt, and remained
  32. > with him until Soloman died. He then returned to al-Sham. It was his
  33. > [Jeroboam's] view and the view of all the children of Israel that
  34. > Rehoboam, the son of Soloman, should be made king, and they made him
  35. > king. Then they [the children of Israel] came to him imploring his
  36. > mercy on account of the burdens and difficulties that were imposed
  37. > upon them in the days of Solomon. But Rehoboam said to them: 'Verily,
  38. > my little finger is stronger than my father's little finger.(68) If,
  39. > indeed, my father had imposed on you difficult tasks and made you bear
  40. > troublesome burdens, I will place and impose upon you that which is
  41. > [even] more burdensome and more difficult.' Then they [the children of
  42. > Israel] separated themselves from him and ap-pointed Jeroboam b. Nabat
  43. > and made him king over themselves; ten tribes of Israel were in
  44. > agreement about him. And Rehoboam b. Soloman became ruler of the two
  45. > [remaining] tribes in Jerusalem.(69) But, because the children of
  46. > Israel used to go on pilgrimage to Jerusalem every year, Jeroboam
  47. > feared for his reign if he should permit them to [continue to] go to
  48. > pilgrimage on account of Rehoboam and his followers, who might turn
  49. > them [the children of Israel] away from him [Jeroboam], or cause them
  50. > to become favorably inclined toward him [Rehoboam]. Therefore he made
  51. > for them two golden calves and placed them in Dan and Bethel, saying:
  52. > 'These are your gods, O Israel, who made you go up from the land of
  53. > Egypt.'(70) And he commanded the people to worship them and to go on
  54. > pilgrimage to them. They obeyed and thus became idolaters once again,
  55. > after the worship of the [first Golden] Calf.(71) So how can any of
  56. > you Jews say that the Jews did not use to associate others with God,
  57. > the exalted, and had no other god beside God, the exalted, and that
  58. > they were monotheists, turning away from anything other than God?"
  59. >
  60. > They [the Jews] acknowledged what he had said about their worship of
  61. > idols in accord with what he had mentioned and wondered at his having
  62. > noticed what no one else knew of their own affairs.(72) Then he said
  63. > to them: "How was it permitted to Soloman to plan to kill Jeroboam
  64. > before [he committed] his crime?(73) This is not permitted in the law
  65. > (shari a) of Moses, nor in the law of the other prophets. Solomon
  66. > adhered to the law of Moses, and if he was permitted to do that which
  67. > Moses was not permitted, [then] abrogation [of the law] is permitted;
  68. > but you deny [the possibility of] abrogation."(74) They [the Jews]
  69. > were silent. Da'ud, their leader, said: "O, our master, we accept your
  70. > words wholeheartedly." Then he [the Sayyid] asked: "Tell me, are there
  71. > among you, O community of Jews, differences [of opinion], and are
  72. > there contradictions and disagreements in your books?" They answered:
  73. > "No." But he said to them: "How can this be? You are divided into
  74. > three sects from which seventy-one sects have split off.(75) [One of
  75. > these] is the Samaritans, a large sect of the Jews that differs from
  76. > them in many things. The Torah that they have differs from that which
  77. > the rest of the Jews have." They answered: "We do not know why these
  78. > differences occurred. But we do know that the Book of the Samaritans
  79. > differs from ours and that they also differ from us in many other
  80. > matters."(76) Next he said to them: "How do you deny disagreement
  81. > [among you] and claim agreement on one [and the same] thing?" He also
  82. > asked them: "Has anything been added to or taken away from the Torah
  83. > which God, the exalted, revealed to Moses?"(77) They answered: "It is
  84. > as it has been until now; nothing was added, nothing was taken
  85. > away?"(78) He replied: "How can this be? For in the Torah which you
  86. > have there are things that are clearly abominable, ugly and
  87. > repulsive,(79) such as what happened in the story of the [Golden] Calf
  88. > to the prophet Aaron, which attributes to him the making of a god for
  89. > the children of Israel. This is the translation of the phrase in the
  90. > Torah in the chapter 'The Revelation of the Tablets and the Making of
  91. > the Calf,' which is chapter twenty of the second book:(80) 'When the
  92. > people saw that Moses was late in descending from the mountain, they
  93. > turned to Aaron and said: "Rise and make us gods who will march before
  94. > us, for this man Moses, who brought us out from the land of Egypt, we
  95. > don't know what happened to him."(81) And Aaron said to them: "Take
  96. > off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, sons, and
  97. > daughters, and bring them to me."(82) The people did so. They removed
  98. > the golden earrings that were in their ears and brought them to Aaron,
  99. > and he took these from them and molded them into a form, and shaped it
  100. > into a molten calf, and they adopted it as a god and worshiped it.
  101. > Then, when Moses came from his meeting with his God and saw what Aaron
  102. > and his people had done, he disapproved of it and rebuked Aaron, while
  103. > the latter apologized to him saying: "Do not blame me for this; I
  104. > would not have done it except for fear of division among the children
  105. > of Israel."'(83)
  106. >
  107. > "This is irrefutable proof that the Torah you have is corrupt,(84) and
  108. > that it contains additions to the Torah that was revealed to Moses,
  109. > for this kind of behavior could not originate even from a foolish
  110. > ignoramus; how then could it originate from the like of the prophet
  111. > Aaron? And how could he have made such an apology to Moses? The
  112. > division of the children of Israel, in his [Aaron's] estimation, would
  113. > have been a smaller offense than Aaron's fashioning a god for them to
  114. > worship? How could he fear the dissension among the children of Israel
  115. > and not worry that they commit polytheism and idolatry? Moses had said
  116. > to him: 'O Aaron, take my place among the people. Do right, and follow
  117. > not the way of mischief-makers.'"(85)
  118. >
  119. > Then Da'ud and the Jews who were with him, said: "And what objection
  120. > is there to this? Gabriel has also assisted [them] in this, and the
  121. > story concerning him is as famous in the Torah as the story of
  122. > Aaron."(86) But he answered: "Gabriel did not assist in this matter,
  123. > and there is nothing in the Torah of that which is here. It was
  124. > al-Samiri who found a trace of animation in the footprints of
  125. > Gabriel's horse and seduced the people by this means.(87) Gabriel
  126. > bears no responsibility in this matter, nor does God, the sublime, the
  127. > exalted, since He created the circumstance that led to the sedition,
  128. > just as He created circumstances of adultery, murder, and other sins.
  129. > They do not happen except in [specific] circumstances and [are carried
  130. > out by] specific instruments. But this does not come under the rubric
  131. > of assistance to idolatry and transgression [of God's commands]; God
  132. > is exalted greatly above [all] this.(88)
  133. >
  134. > "And in the fourth chapter of the fifth book mentioning the [Golden]
  135. > Calf and the reprimand of the children of Israel regarding its
  136. > worship, it is stated: 'God was very angry with Aaron and almost
  137. > destroyed him, but I begged [God's] pardon on his behalf. He forgave
  138. > him this as well.'(89) This clearly shows the repulsiveness of this
  139. > act and its odiousness, for if God was angry with Aaron on its
  140. > account, how can you say that there was no objection to it?
  141. >
  142. > "Almost as bad as this story in repulsiveness and odiousness is what
  143. > is recounted in the Torah about the story of Lot and his two
  144. > daughters.(90) In chapter twenty-three of the first book of the
  145. > Torah(91) [there is the following verse]: 'Verily, when Lot went up
  146. > from Swghr(92) and dwelled in the mountain with his two daughters (his
  147. > people having been destroyed), the older of the two said to the
  148. > younger one: "Our father is an old man and there are no men [left] on
  149. > earth to cohabit with us, as is the way of mankind. Rise, let us give
  150. > our father wine to drink and have sexual intercourse with him, and let
  151. > us strive to be-get progeny from him." So they gave him wine to drink
  152. > that night and the older one came and had intercourse with her father
  153. > and he did not perceive her sleeping [with him] nor her rising. Then,
  154. > on the next day, the older one said to the younger one: "I had
  155. > intercourse last night with father. Rise, let us give him wine to
  156. > drink tonight and have intercourse with him yourself." So they gave
  157. > him wine to drink that night as well. The younger one arose and had
  158. > intercourse with him and he did not perceive her sleeping or waking.
  159. > Thus Lot's two daughters became pregnant by their father. The older
  160. > one bore a son and she called him Moab. He is the progenitor of the
  161. > "children of Moab" to this day. And the younger one bore a son and she
  162. > called him Amon. And he is the progenitor of the "children of Amon" to
  163. > this day.'
  164. >
  165. > "This is the text of the Torah which the Jews(93) have; I have
  166. > translated it [these passages] word-for-word.(94) But this is an
  167. > evident lie and an ugly slander. Reason rejects that such shameful and
  168. > slanderous incidents could occur to the messengers and prophets of
  169. > God, and that their daughters and sons could be afflicted with the
  170. > consequences of such odious behavior throughout time and for all
  171. > generations [to come].(95)
  172. >
  173. > "As for Moab and Amon, they are two great nations between al-Balqa'
  174. > and Mt. al-Shara.(96) The grandmother of Soloman and David was from
  175. > among the children of Moab,(97) so according to the Jews this entire
  176. > progeny is ignoble, since it was not engendered through lawful
  177. > matrimony. The daughters' being prohibited to the father is agreed
  178. > upon by all laws and religions. Sisters too were prohibited by
  179. > previous religions. That is why Abraham, when the Egyptians asked him
  180. > about Sarah, said: 'She is my sister,'(98) so that they would not
  181. > think that she was his wife and would [not] kill him. And there is no
  182. > doubt that, in being prohibited, a daughter has precedence over a
  183. > sister.(99) It is usually not probable for one advanced in age to
  184. > impregnate on two successive nights, especially while excessively
  185. > drunk, which is what they claim. However, it was said that Lot, after
  186. > the affair with Sodom, was nearing one hundred years [of age].(100)
  187. >
  188. > "How could Lot's daughters think that the world was devoid of men,
  189. > despite knowing that those who perished were exclusively the people of
  190. > Lot? They knew that Abraham and his people were in the village of
  191. > Jirun(101) and between him and them there was only [a distance] of one
  192. > parasang, that the calamity did not befall them, and that the entire
  193. > world, except the people of Lot, were safe from it.
  194. >
  195. > "Therefore this is a lie mixed with excessive stupidity. It would have
  196. > been enough for them to know that their father would realize this
  197. > repulsive act when he awoke, and so would Abraham, the uncle of their
  198. > father, on account of the great position and close relationship [to
  199. > Lot]. This should have sufficed to prevent them from perpetrating this
  200. > abominable deed, supposing that it did take place. It, and the like of
  201. > it which occurs in your Torah, O community of Jews, is proof of the
  202. > occurrence in it of corruption and addition.(102)
  203. >
  204. > "And if we wished to elaborate on the contradictions and the
  205. > differences that occur in this Torah, and on what it unsuitably
  206. > associates with the Creator, the great and mighty, such as
  207. > corporeality, form, remorse, sorrow, weakness, [and] weariness, words
  208. > would be drawn out indeed and this place would not be wide enough [to
  209. > contain them all].(103)
  210. >
  211. > "But tell me, O community of Jews, can ritual prayer (salat) be
  212. > missing in any religious law (sharifa)?" They answered: "No; ritual
  213. > prayer is prescribed in all of them and no religious law is devoid of
  214. > it." He said: "Inform me about this ritual prayer of yours. What is
  215. > its origin? And whence is it taken? This Torah, which is made up of
  216. > five books, we have examined and know what is in it book by book, but
  217. > we have not found ritual prayer in any of them by name or
  218. > mention."(104) Then one of them replied: "The fact that it [ritual
  219. > prayer] is commanded is known through implication rather than through
  220. > explicit words).(105) The Torah contains [commands] regarding the
  221. > invocation (dhikr) [of God's name] and supplication (du?a)."(106) But
  222. > he, may God support him, said to them: "We are not talking about
  223. > invocation or about supplication, but rather about your specific and
  224. > prescribed ritual prayer (salat) [recited] three times daily, morning,
  225. > afternoon, and evening which are called tefilla shaharit, tefilla
  226. > minhah, and tefilla arab.(107) As for invocation and supplication,
  227. > there is a general command to do them, but no specific command that
  228. > ascribes specific times, and no direction [of prayer] is preferable to
  229. > another, whereas you must face the Temple(108) during this ritual
  230. > prayer, which is not a condition for invocation and supplication.
  231. >
  232. > "With regard to the prerequisite of facing the Temple, there is
  233. > another difficulty, one from which I do not see you freeing
  234. > yourselves, and it is this: the Temple was demarcated by David and was
  235. > built by his son Soloman. Now there were more than five hundred years
  236. > between Soloman and Moses.(109) So what was the status of Moses'
  237. > prayer, and after him, of the prayers of the prophets, until the time
  238. > of Soloman and his building of the Temple? Similar to this is what you
  239. > must admit in the matter of pilgrimage (hajj). The pilgrimage for you
  240. > is to the Temple, which was not in existence in the time of Moses, nor
  241. > that of the prophets, until the time of Soloman.(110) Is this a thing
  242. > you invented for yourselves, or do you possess any proof or evidence
  243. > for it? 'Bring your proof (of what ye state) if you are
  244. > truthful.'"(111)
  245. >
  246. > They answered: "We know this from the words of the prophets [who came]
  247. > after Moses, and [from] their books, as well as from the commentaries
  248. > of our sages (?ulama?) on the Torah." But he said to them: "As for the
  249. > prophets after Moses, they all [lived] according to his law, following
  250. > him in his judgments, ruling according to the Torah, not adding or
  251. > taking anything away from it.
  252. >
  253. > "Furthermore, you, O community of Jews, do not permit the abrogation
  254. > of laws, so how are you permitted new inventions(112) which did not
  255. > exist in the time of Moses? How is it possible for your sages to
  256. > comment on the Torah by [adding] things that are extraneous to the law
  257. > of Moses, and how can you attribute to the prophets their promulgation
  258. > of these laws which are extraneous to the Torah?"(113)
  259. >
  260. > They were perplexed by these words, silenced, and amazed by the
  261. > profusion of his learning and this information regarding their own
  262. > affairs and his understanding of their beliefs and writings. Then one
  263. > of them got up the courage to ask: "[Suppose] we were to admit that
  264. > there was no ritual prayer in the time of Moses; what are the
  265. > implications which are then incumbent upon us?"
  266. >
  267. > He, may God the exalted sustain him, answered them: "You have just
  268. > admitted that ritual prayer is prescribed in all religious laws, so
  269. > how can the law of Moses which, according to you, is the greatest and
  270. > most complete, lack it?(114) Moreover, what called upon you to suffer
  271. > the burden of performing this ritual prayer which did not exist in
  272. > your prophet's time and was no specified in your Book?"(115)
  273. >
  274. > They were silenced and had no answer; they felt embarrassed by the
  275. > exposure in one [and the same] meeting of such inconsistency in their
  276. > own words. Then one [of the Jews] said to the Sayyid: "The Qur?an does
  277. > not elaborate [the details] of the ritual prayers you perform, O
  278. > community of Muslims, so how do you know them, despite the fact that
  279. > the Qur?an lacks them?"(116)
  280. >
  281. > He responded: "Ritual prayer is mentioned in several places in the Qur
  282. > an. We know from the Qur an its number, its direction, and many of its
  283. > rules. The remaining rules and conditions we know from prophetic
  284. > explicatory utterances as related in reliable traditions.(117) So we
  285. > are not equal in this matter, we and you, if you [would but]
  286. > understand."
  287. >
  288. > Next he said: "The Torah contains many laws which you do not observe
  289. > now, such as the laws concerning purity and impurity until sunset, and
  290. > others, [laws] regarding touching those afflicted with venereal
  291. > disease, menstruation, leprosy, a variety of [unclean] animals, and
  292. > the contagion of the menses from women to men making the men who touch
  293. > them as ritually unclean as the menstruating women.(118) These laws
  294. > are contained in chapters nine, ten, and eleven of the third book and
  295. > in other places in the Torah [as well];(119) you should return to them
  296. > if [now] you do not perform them!"
  297. >
  298. > They answered: "Yes, this is all true, we agree and accept your
  299. > words."
  300. >
  301. > Afterward he said to them: "Why do you not perform these, although
  302. > they are mentioned in the text of the Torah which you claim is the one
  303. > revealed to Moses, without corruption or alteration, and whose law you
  304. > claim is universal for all people, exhaustive for all time, in which
  305. > nothing has been abrogated? After the prophet Moses, only Jesus and
  306. > Muhammad brought abrogation to his [Moses'] law. But you do not accept
  307. > their prophethood or the abrogation of the law of Moses in any way."
  308. >
  309. > They replied: "This all pertains to the rule on commandments, and a
  310. > [positive] commandment can be changed in the course of time, as
  311. > opposed to prohibitions [which cannot]. The [positive] commandment is
  312. > [intended] to bring reward while the prohibition is [intended] to
  313. > repel punishment, and thus they differ."(120)
  314. >
  315. > He replied: "There is no difference between a [positive] commandment
  316. > and a prohibition in regard to the obligation to obey and to adhere;
  317. > abrogation is impossible without an abrogating [commandment] and
  318. > without a cause. And if a commandment is positive, it is like a
  319. > prohibition with regard to repelling punishment together with bringing
  320. > reward. What you claim, that all these laws pertain to the rule of
  321. > commandments, is not so. The wording of the Torah in these places
  322. > occurs both in the language of command and in other ways, such as
  323. > prohibition, forbidding, [demanding] purification, and [regarding]
  324. > polution.(121) "Produce the Torah and read it (unto us) if you be
  325. > truthful."(122)
  326. >
  327. > They then changed from this topic of conversation to another. Their
  328. > chief said: "How come you do not judge according to the Torah, O
  329. > community of Muslims, for the Qur n says: 'Whoso judgeth not by that
  330. > which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.'"(123)
  331. >
  332. > He responded: "Since the prophecy of our prophet is established for
  333. > us, and he abrogated previous laws, it is incumbent upon us to follow
  334. > the laws that abrogate rather than those that are abrogated. This is
  335. > just as you must follow the law of Moses, and must carry out what is
  336. > in the Torah, without [obeying] the religions, laws, and scriptures
  337. > that preceded it. A group of the laws of the Torah have remained which
  338. > have not been abrogated, such as the laws [regarding] injuries,
  339. > retaliation, and others.(124) But we rule in accord with these because
  340. > they exist in the Qur an, not because they are found in the
  341. > Torah."(125)
  342. >
  343. > Then he [the Jew] asked: "What is the meaning of His verse: 'Such of
  344. > Our revelations as We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring [in
  345. > place] one better or the like thereof'?(126) What is the difference
  346. > between abrogating (naskh) and causing to forget (insa)? What is the
  347. > benefit in abrogating something and then instituting something like
  348. > it?"
  349. >
  350. > He replied: "The difference between abrogating and causing something
  351. > to be forgotten is that abrogation removes the legal provision (hukm)
  352. > even if the text which ordains it remains, while causing something to
  353. > be forgotten is removing it [the rule] by removing the text which
  354. > denotes it and wiping it off the mind completely. What is meant by
  355. > 'something like it' is the rule which is similar to the first,
  356. > according to its beneficial effect, so that its benefit in its own
  357. > time is equivalent to the benefit of the first rule in its own time,
  358. > not that the utility of both is the same during the same time, in
  359. > which case abrogation, of necessity, would be of no use."
  360. >
  361. > They laughed and were amazed by the excellence of his reply and the
  362. > beauty of the argument in his speech. He said: "O community of Jews,
  363. > had we perceived in you a desire and solicitousness in searching for
  364. > truth, we would have brought you clear proofs and overpowering
  365. > evidence.(127) But I counsel you with the most perfect of proofs to
  366. > act with fairness, abandon blind imitation (taqlid)(128) and the
  367. > following of your fathers and forefathers, and to abandon bigotry,
  368. > fanaticism, and stubbornness. For verily the world is perishable and
  369. > finite, 'every soul will taste of death,'(129) and God's servants must
  370. > meet God, the exalted, in eternity, on the great day after which there
  371. > will be nothing but lasting felicity or grievous torment. The
  372. > wise[man] is he who prepares himself for that day, is concerned about
  373. > it, and embarks in this world on correcting [his] beliefs, carries out
  374. > the works with which he is enjoined and contemplates critically the
  375. > various faiths and diverse denominations. But Truth cannot be on two
  376. > contradictory sides. No one can bring as an excuse the fact that he
  377. > imitates [the ways of his] father and grandfather, or accepts a
  378. > denomination or faith without proof or evidence. For the same rule
  379. > applies to all people as regards fathers and forefathers. If this were
  380. > an acceptable way to salvation, everyone would be saved and all people
  381. > would be safe! But this would do away with religion and make faith and
  382. > unbelief equal. Infidels and idolaters follow in the tracks of their
  383. > fathers, but they are not excused for it. [Their] following of their
  384. > tradition does not save them from destruction and ruin.(130) So, save
  385. > your souls from the torture of the fire and the wrath of the Almighty
  386. > 'on the day when hidden thoughts shall be searched out,'(131) veils
  387. > will be rent, intercession will be of no avail, nor close friends,
  388. > helpers, or protectors. Therefore it is incumbent on you to rid
  389. > yourselves of prejudices that prevent you from turning to the Truth,
  390. > and from the causes diverting [you] from integrity, to remove the
  391. > inclination towards the faith of [your] fathers and forefathers, and
  392. > to turn to the Lord of mankind, striving to seek that which saves from
  393. > torture on the Day of Return. This requires the beneficial spiritual
  394. > exercise of the soul and its salutary struggle as God, the exalted,
  395. > has said: '[As for] those who strive in Us, we surely guide them to
  396. > our paths.'(132) All revealed scriptures speak in this way, and it is
  397. > mentioned by all the prophets who have been sent. All sound minds
  398. > corroborate it and all penetrating, straightforward views lead to it.
  399. > Turn to God in your beliefs and mend them; correct your deeds and save
  400. > your souls; do not cause them to perish! No one is left with anything
  401. > but his soul when his spirit separates itself and he descends into the
  402. > grave. I do not want [to accomplish] anything with my speech except to
  403. > advise you as much as I can, even though you do not like advisers."
  404. >
  405. > They said: "Your words are precious to us and we accept them. We seek
  406. > Truth and we desire that which is fight and truthful."
  407. >
  408. > He asked them: "What incited you to choose and prefer the Jewish over
  409. > the Muslim faith?"
  410. >
  411. > They replied: "The followers of [the monotheistic] faiths, namely
  412. > Jews, Christians, and Muslims, agree about the prophecy of Moses,
  413. > [about] the firm ground of his law, and the revelation of the Torah to
  414. > him. They disagree regarding the prophecy of Jesus, the prophecy of
  415. > Muhammad, God's blessings be upon him, about the Gospels, and about
  416. > the Qur an. We chose that about which everyone is in agreement and
  417. > refrained from that about which they disagree."(133)
  418. >
  419. > He, may God the exalted sustain him, said to them: "Muslims believe in
  420. > the prophecy of Moses and in the truthfulness of his mission because
  421. > of the message of their righteous and reliable prophet [Muhammad] and
  422. > the fact that he [Moses] is mentioned in their book, the Qur an. Were
  423. > it not for this they [Muslims] would not acknowledge the prophecy of
  424. > Moses and Jesus, or the Torah and the Gospels.(134) But you do not
  425. > similarly accept the testimony of Christians and Muslims in anything.
  426. > So, how can you admit their testimony, for they testify against you
  427. > regarding idolatry and deviation from the truth? Thus there remains
  428. > for you nothing except your own testimony in regard to yourselves, and
  429. > it is of no benefit to you."(35)
  430. >
  431. > They were perplexed by his clear words and by this eloquent and
  432. > powerful assertion. They looked at one another and desisted for a long
  433. > time.
  434. >
  435. > Then Uzayr, a young man among them, said: "Dear sir, shall I give a
  436. > short, useful speech by way of advice and out of affection? Listen and
  437. > contemplate it and be fair; it shall be a proof against you."
  438. >
  439. > He replied: "All right; what is this speech?"
  440. >
  441. > He [ Uzayr] said: "In our scripture, that is to say in the Torah, the
  442. > advent of a prophet after Moses [is mentioned], but he would be from
  443. > among our brothers, not from the children of Ishmael."(136)
  444. >
  445. > But he countered: "The Torah mentions this good news in chapter twelve
  446. > of the fifth book, and its translation is: 'Verily, the Exalted said
  447. > to Moses: "I will set up for you,"--that is, for the children of
  448. > Israel--"a prophet from among the sons of their brothers [who is] like
  449. > you, so let them believe in him and listen to him."'(137) And the
  450. > brothers of the children of Israel are the children of Ishmael. Israel
  451. > is Jacob, son of Isaac, the brother of Ishmael.(138) Therefore, the
  452. > prophet who is promised is from the offspring of Ishmael. This is
  453. > proof in our favor, not against us."
  454. >
  455. > Uzayr was greatly embarrassed, turned colors, bit his fingertips, and
  456. > did not say anything after this. Then he [the Sayyid] returned to
  457. > giving them advice. He said to them: "You know of my knowledge of your
  458. > books and ways, and of my knowledge regarding the way of your
  459. > forefathers and [their] successors. I wish to put an end to your
  460. > excuses by removing your errors. If there is someone among you who is
  461. > more learned than you are, go back to him, find out what he knows.
  462. > Bring him to me; you have an entire year to do so.139 But return to
  463. > God and do not persist in your transgression."
  464. >
  465. > They said: "We believe in the prophecy of Moses through his brilliant
  466. > miracles and manifest signs." But he asked them: "Were you alive in
  467. > Moses' time and did you see these miracles and signs with your own
  468. > eyes?"(140) They replied: "We heard about them." Then he replied:
  469. > "Have you not also heard about the miracles of Muhammad, may God's
  470. > blessing be upon him, about his proofs, signs, and his evident
  471. > miracles?(114) How come you believe the former and disbelieve the
  472. > latter, despite the fact that Moses' time is distant from you and
  473. > Muhammad's is closer? It is well known that hearing differs in
  474. > intensity and weakens, according to whether the time is close or
  475. > distant. Whenever the time span is longer, belief is more difficult,
  476. > and whenever it is shorter, belief is easier. As for us, the community
  477. > of Muslims, we accepted both oral traditions [of Judaism and Islam]
  478. > and combined these two proofs; we believe in the prophecy of both
  479. > prophets. We do not differentiate between any of [God's] prophets and
  480. > His scriptures, and we do not say, as you do: 'We believe some of them
  481. > and disbelieve others.'(142) Praise be to God who guided us to this;
  482. > we would not have been rightly guided had God not guided us. The
  483. > prophets of our Lord brought the Truth."
  484. >
  485. > Then he [also] said to them: "If Abraham were to ask you: 'Why did you
  486. > abandon my religion and my faith? Why did you wind up in the religion
  487. > and faith of Moses?' What would you answer him?"(143) They replied:
  488. > "We would say to Abraham: 'You are the predecessor and Moses is the
  489. > successor; the law (hukm) does not belong to the predecessor after
  490. > [the manifestation of] a successor.'"(144)
  491. >
  492. > But he answered them: "What if Muhammad said to you: 'Why do you not
  493. > follow my faith, since I am the successor and Moses is the
  494. > predecessor?' You have said: 'The law does not belong to the
  495. > predecessor after [the manifestation of] the successor,' and I brought
  496. > you manifest signs, brilliant miracles, and the eternal Qur an which
  497. > endures through time. What would your answer be to this?"
  498. >
  499. > Following this they desisted, became perplexed, and brought forward no
  500. > [other arguments]. "Thus was the disbeliever abashed."(145)
  501. >
  502. > He turned to their elder, saying: "I will ask you something. Tell me
  503. > the truth, and do not say anything other than the truth. Have you
  504. > tried to seek faith and acquire knowledge and certainty since you
  505. > reached maturity [i.e., the age when religious laws became obligatory
  506. > for you] until now?" He replied: "In fairness, until now I have not
  507. > been in this valley and [these arguments] never occurred to my
  508. > conscience or to my heart. I chose the faith of Moses because he was
  509. > our prophet and no proof was shown to us that would abrogate this
  510. > prophecy. We have not examined the religion of Muhammad closely nor
  511. > have we investigated it truly.(146) We shall contemplate this and
  512. > shall bring to you news regarding what occurs to us in this matter."
  513.  
  514.  
  515. [1]: http://www.questia.com/library/1G1-62658416/a-shii-jewish-debate-munazara-in-the-eighteenth
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