voksul - Today at 3:16 PM
So, we're gonna just try to figure out what exactly the original issue was and reach an amicable conclusion in regards to the issue, okay?

Guy - Today at 3:16 PM
okay

voksul - Today at 3:16 PM
The best way to go about this, I think, is to have you guys explain your issue (as civily as possible) now, and we'll try to reach a conclusion that appeals to all parties.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:16 PM
Ok z-z

voksul - Today at 3:17 PM
Also, Biki, as a girl, probably understands not wanting to fuck up your nails you just did, so I'll just be transcribing what Em says if you don't mind.
(unedited)

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:17 PM
What
Oooh

voksul - Today at 3:18 PM
Em just did her nails and says "wet nails make for bad and slow typing."

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:18 PM
I'm  tired so I'm slow

voksul - Today at 3:18 PM
It's fine.
but when you're ready try to find a, uh, dignified way of explaining the problem you had earlier this morning that caused the whole argument in the first place.

Guy - Today at 3:20 PM
first i wanna say that, uh, i think the.. how you call it, bond or trust in the moderation of the chat is kind of broken for me and biki
and i don't think that is gonna change any time soon

voksul - Today at 3:20 PM
The reason why there's moderation is because of issues we've had in the past.

Guy - Today at 3:20 PM
we're both feeling extremely disappointed and quite frankly.. unwanted here
i'm just tellin you how we feel.

voksul - Today at 3:21 PM
I understand.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:21 PM
Yea..

voksul - Today at 3:21 PM
We love and appreciate you guys.

Guy - Today at 3:21 PM
i dont need to beg to be able to talk to my friends, to be able to bring up my side of the story, to defend myself

voksul - Today at 3:21 PM
The reason why I muted you was because the argument was getting very aggressive and when I don't invoke mod stuff, we end up with half the chat leaving and hating eachother.

Guy - Today at 3:22 PM
and it feels awfully like if i ever dare bring up anything that's on my mind i'll be muted.
And what ended up happening? Other than the fact that many people in the chat are now even more hesistant about talking

voksul - Today at 3:22 PM
The issue, again, isn't that you brought up an issue, rather that you brought it up in an aggressive way.
But before we even get to that

Guy - Today at 3:23 PM
I understand that but you need to understand that the way you handled this issue has been, in my opinion, very disrespectful, wrong, demeaning, condescending and counter-effective.

voksul - Today at 3:23 PM
we need to address the issue that started this entire thing in the first place, which I'm not entirely sure is because it was muddled in a sea of personal attacks.

Guy - Today at 3:24 PM
You can't seperate the two issues because i don't know what of my words now will get me muted again and if you'll ever try to listen, you need to understand that something has been broken.
and we can't just move on and drop the matter.

voksul - Today at 3:24 PM
Good: "I feel like Emily is a bit moody and self-concerned." Bad: "Anime is an obnoxious bitch."

Guy - Today at 3:26 PM
Do you know how unbelievably humiliating it is to see people talk about you to your face, see people say things about you that aren't true and having to rely on another person who i didnt want to bring up to this in the first place but she was the only one who was willing to stand up for me and see her lose her mind and i can't do anything because i can't talk? and knowing that the one that's keeping you from talking is supposed to be a friend?

voksul - Today at 3:26 PM
Again, and I cannot stress this enough, you weren't muted for bringing up an issue with a chat member.

Guy - Today at 3:26 PM
Again, you say that, and you need to understand that it doesn't matter. at the end of the day, i raised my voice and you didn't let me express myself.
i had problems with your behavior and instead of trying to manage the situation, you silenced the situation.
That's not how it's supposed to run.

voksul - Today at 3:27 PM
The intention was to not silence it permanently, but it let you calm down enough to actually pontificate what your conflict is.
Because as you were in chat, you were lashing out with pointed attacks and being incredibly disruptive.

Guy - Today at 3:28 PM
nonetheless it was extremely humiliating.
and i disagree that my behavior was as out of line as you describe it, i think youre making a huge exaggeration.

voksul - Today at 3:28 PM
I apologize for that, but it was needed.
We're not really going to be able to achieve any reasonable discussion if we can't disentangle the initial issue and the conflict over muting.

Guy - Today at 3:30 PM
again, you may apologize and i respect that, but it's hard to regain trust. we're both feeling extremely humiliated.
okay, biki do you have anything to add

voksul - Today at 3:32 PM
The entire point of mediating the initial problem here is to prove to you that it's possible to have an intelligent and productive discussion about the issues without resorting to direct conflict.
Em says she's not really entirely sure what the initial problem was, too.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:37 PM
Back..sorry i dont feel so very good..but yea it was very sad that guy had to be muted. And that I think this chat should be able to finish talking about what they feel. Cuz it is very humiliating to be muted. And it breaks the trust even more..and im not the person to argue nor discuss.. but i had enough so I broke v-v

voksul - Today at 3:37 PM
I understand that muting isn't pleasant, but it's to avoid further escalation while we deal with the issue not in front of the children.
Again, we have to talk about what caused this issue to escalate, because by the time I muted you you were hurling abuse in general chat.

Guy - Today at 3:38 PM
it doesnt make it a viable solution for the future.
it only made things worse and as i said, broke the trust between the chat and the mods.

voksul - Today at 3:39 PM
Then what is? We used to have no formal mod structure and what happened was that every time there was an argument, literally 50% of the Discord left and had to be reinvited.
I muted you because you refused to agree to have a calm discussion at that point.
But seriously.

Guy - Today at 3:39 PM
people are still pissed off, youre just silencing the problem.

voksul - Today at 3:39 PM
We need.
Okay.

Guy - Today at 3:40 PM
In fact I agreed to have a calm discussion about a 50 times, you just refused to let me discuss it.
It just reinforces the fact that some people in this chat are more important than others

voksul - Today at 3:40 PM
Are we talking about post-or-pre mute trying to discuss your issue with Emily?

Guy - Today at 3:41 PM
Which is already why some people have left the chat and some people are now a lot more quieter.
post.

voksul - Today at 3:42 PM
Forgive me if I wasn't entirely confident you woudn't continue to lash out when you were likening me to a dictator while pleading to be unmuted.

Guy - Today at 3:42 PM
if you don't think that you've dealt this in a completely wrong way then frankly, nothing is gonna change.
Because you were absolutely acting like some sort of a tyrant over this chat, deciding who gets to talk and who doesn't, who gets to be in the group and who doesn't.
for the purpose of keeping things mellow? the things weren't mellow at any point.

voksul - Today at 3:44 PM
This isn't 4chan and I don't want the Discord to end up a shithole like 4chan. Most communities on the internet are moderated because sometimes conflicts escalate and sometimes there are problems.
The entire point is that there is a way to have an intelligent, mature and productive conversation about your problems with some of the peopel on this chat.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:44 PM
Brb..dad needs help..

voksul - Today at 3:44 PM
That's fine.

Guy - Today at 3:45 PM
this isn't a "community" this is a bunch of friends.
The way to not having an intelligent, mature and productive conversation is to mute people.

voksul - Today at 3:45 PM
It's okay to have issues with people in this chat. It's okay to want those issues addressed. But the way to go about it is not getting into a screaming match in general chat.

Guy - Today at 3:45 PM
you need to realize that. and you need to realize that right now you've effectively made this chat a hierechy system
where some people are more important than the others and if you open your mute, you might get punished.
Doesn't matter if your intentions were good or bad, that's what you effectively created and you don't even seem very remorseful over it.

voksul - Today at 3:47 PM
Guy, if like, for whatever reason, Snake or Keir or Em were attacking someone and would not calm down, I would mute them for a period too.

Guy - Today at 3:47 PM
I don't believe that, to be honest.
And again, you're highly, highly misconstructing the stuff i did and said.

voksul - Today at 3:48 PM
The mods are people I trust not to be brash about kicking or muting.

Guy - Today at 3:48 PM
I wasn't going around attacking everyone in my sight, i was having a heated conversation with emily a conversation which she took absolute part in.

voksul - Today at 3:48 PM
in
general
chat.
If you wanted

Guy - Today at 3:48 PM
Doesn't mean i should be muted for it.

voksul - Today at 3:49 PM
you could have asked me, or Snake, or Keir and we would have brought you together and we could figure out what exactly the problem is
which again, you won't tell me.
but instead you fought in front of everyone and made Grizzly leave.

Guy - Today at 3:49 PM
You can argue about it, but at the end of the day i'm telling you what you de-facto created with.
No, grizzly left because of you.

voksul - Today at 3:50 PM
I don't think you're ready to have an actual conversation about this issue to be completely frank because you refuse to actually talk about the matter at hand.

Guy - Today at 3:51 PM
No, I just bring up an issue that I find to be more important
And you don't actually address
You just keep shifting the blame on to me.
Muting did not solve everything, aggreviated everyone in chat, reinfornced the notion that some people in the chat have control over the others and made sure that people in the future will not talk about issues that bother them. and caused someone to leave.

voksul - Today at 3:52 PM
I did. Metaphor time. It's like you're discussing Occupy Wallstreet-style issues, but then argue about global warming.
These are independent issues and I've explained to you why moderators are necessary and not more important to you.

Guy - Today at 3:53 PM
All of that was created by your decision to mute, a decision that you're not exactly showing any remorse for.
You can argue and argue and argue and keep arguing, voks, but again you're completely ignoring what you effectivelly created.
I'm sure you meant well.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:53 PM
Back

Guy - Today at 3:54 PM
and see that's exactly the reason why no one will feel welcome to discuss their problems with you
look how stubborn you get..
Someone tells you that your decision did a lot of bad things and youre still arguing for it.

voksul - Today at 3:54 PM
I've had (or attempted to have) an intelligent conversation about why moderators are necessary.

Guy - Today at 3:55 PM
So now you're insinuating that I am not intelligent?

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:55 PM
Guy is talking about an issue rn. One issue at a time..

Guy - Today at 3:55 PM
I am trying to talk about an issue that he's refusing to listen to like he has all day long.

voksul - Today at 3:55 PM
Here is why I'm so bitchy about talking about the original issue.
Look, here is entire stance summed up.

Guy - Today at 3:56 PM
Voks you are still refusing to listen to a word I am saying
And that's the core of the problem.

voksul - Today at 3:56 PM
I've directly addressed everything you've said.

Guy - Today at 3:56 PM
all day long i've been talking to you and you refused to listen to me.
No, no you haven't.
You're refusing to listen to me.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:57 PM
Like I said one issue at a time and guy wants to talk about ^that issue

voksul - Today at 3:58 PM
If we talk about the original issue, hopefully we can have a calm conversation about what exactly caused you to act abusive and disruptive in general chat. This will prove that it's possible to solve these issues without getting into a huge argument and having people feel unwanted and leave.

Guy - Today at 3:58 PM
But the original issue is 20% of the story. I am much more aggreviated about the way you handled this issue.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:58 PM
^true

Guy - Today at 3:58 PM
The core of all of this is the way you and emily handled what happened after.
if you listened to me you'd know that..

voksul - Today at 3:58 PM
I've explained, repeatedly, why the mods and mutes exist.
I did.
You think that muting insinuates a power structure that makes you and other non-moderators sub-class people.

Guy - Today at 3:59 PM
I know, I know, as to create order in the chat. But no order has been created. You've created a rift in the chat.

voksul - Today at 3:59 PM
No, you have, my friend.

Guy - Today at 3:59 PM
It's not something "I think". it's something that you've created and you need to solve.
You seem to be throwing it in the "whatever, get over it" drawer.

Guy - Today at 4:00 PM
But no, You've disrespected a large number of people in this chat and shown them that you have control over whether or not they get to speak.

voksul - Today at 4:00 PM
But I've explained why it does not and that if you feel that way it's unavoidable but ultimately the best scenario given the circumstances.

Guy - Today at 4:00 PM
What if you started to talk in a way that i deemed abusive? Would I be able to mute you?
It's absolutely not the best scenario given the circumstances.

voksul - Today at 4:01 PM
You'd be able to tell one of the mods to. The moderators are the people I trust not to be willy-nilly with powers.

Guy - Today at 4:01 PM
and if you don't understand that you mustn't resort to the ridiculous methods of punishments then
we don't really have much to talk here

voksul - Today at 4:02 PM
Guy, I hope you realize that you're being entirely unreasonable.

Guy - Today at 4:02 PM
not really, no, to be honest.
I think you're the one being entirely unreasonable.

voksul - Today at 4:03 PM
I've addressed each one of your points, but they aren't satisfactory to you because they aren't what you want to hear.

Guy - Today at 4:03 PM
no group of friends will ever work when someone gets to decide when others can't talk.

voksul - Today at 4:03 PM
Instead of explaining why my counterpoints aren't valid, you disregard them entirely.

Guy - Today at 4:03 PM
Sorry, it will never work. I don't know how you work with your friends, but I am telling you it will never work.

voksul - Today at 4:03 PM
We're not all friends. We're overlapping friend groups.
I'm not friends with everyone in this chat.
But I am not abusive to anyone in this chat.

Guy - Today at 4:03 PM
i have in fact explained to you wholeheartedly why your counterpoints are not even addressing my points.
Yes you are.
Muting someone in chat and talking shit about them to their face is the definition of being abusive.
It's, quite literally, abusing your power.
but again, there's really no need to get upset.

voksul - Today at 4:05 PM
I didn't talk shit to your face. You were not at that point in time at all willing to have a conversation with the involved parties without resorting to personal attacks and screaming at them.
And it seems like you still aren't entirely willing to.

Guy - Today at 4:05 PM
As i've said in the beginning of this conversation, me and biki are feeling betrayed, disappointed and unwanted in the chat, and in the context of this conversation, you're still proving us exactly why we should still feel that

voksul - Today at 4:06 PM
Again, you were not muted for having a problem with someone in chat.

Guy - Today at 4:06 PM
Voks. Not every time someone disagrees with you that means they're unwilling to have a conversation with you.
Stop accusing me of things that are simply untrue.

voksul - Today at 4:06 PM
I'm losing my temper, and that's a difficult thing to make me do.
I was woken up at 8:00 AM this morning and I saw you all-caps screaming at Em in the general chat.
That is not okay.

Guy - Today at 4:07 PM
sounds to me like you're not willing to have a civil conversation.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:07 PM
It's true. The chat is like. You can't talk about what you feel without being "scared" of getting muted. And it's like guy says. Getting decided on who can or can't talk. That's not how it works..it's wrong.. that's also why I probably won't be talking in that chat anymore

voksul - Today at 4:08 PM
Biki, me or the other mods will not mute you unless you're being abusive in general chat.

Guy - Today at 4:08 PM
Me and biki are here if you wanna listen to our points since you're clearly not listening to them right now.

voksul - Today at 4:08 PM
Like, literally, if you had brought up this issue to me directly
instead of getting into a shitfling match in general chat, you wouldn't be muted.

Guy - Today at 4:09 PM
one that emily started mind you.

voksul - Today at 4:09 PM
I'll directly copy and paste what I typed out for the rules.
Please note that this means that no matter how legitimate your problem with someone is (unless they're like, livestreaming themselves kicking puppies), you are incriminating yourself if you voice  your issues within the Discord. You are breaking the rules if you publicly voice your qualms in front of everyone. Again, if it is a big issue, then you should ask the mods to mediate or deal with the problem.
It doesn't matter who started it.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:10 PM
I've said my stuff..im not discussing with someone that's this stubborn..sorry but i dont have the energy for it..

voksul - Today at 4:11 PM
You have to be kidding me.
You have not explained why my counterpoints are invalid.
You've simply called me stubborn for not agreeing with you.
Moderators exist because the fact of the matter is that we aren't all friends. But we should treat eachother like friends.
but that doesn't always happen.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:14 PM
No idc if you agree or not with me .-. All I want is for you and guy to talk everything out. When he's happy abut it. Then I am. That's all

voksul - Today at 4:14 PM
and when that doesn't happen, if someone doesn't step in, the entire chat gets swallowed up and five or six people leave because they're offended.

Guy - Today at 4:14 PM
Because a. you're highly exaggerating the level of "abuse" i've done in chat, I honestly have not said anything extremely out of line like you're suggesting.
and b. You're failing to understand the pandora's box you've opened. You say now "oh, but it's only going to be used in extreme cases" you're opening a manhole where a mod has the power over anyone in chat, where they're even allowed to mute someone for any reason whatsoever, where a group of friends is monitored in a way a public forum or chat would be, and it's not how it should be. Your refusal to let me back to this chat showed extreme carelessness, disrespect and humiliated members of this chat greatly and you're still to have taken any responsibility over it.
i rather 5 or 6 people leaving than one person getting shunned out of even presenting his case.

voksul - Today at 4:14 PM
Now you're being obtuse.

Guy - Today at 4:15 PM
At the top of everything, everyone needs to have the right to defend themselves for crying out loud.
Okay voksul, again, when you feel like you wanna have, how you call it, "civil discussion"

voksul - Today at 4:15 PM
The mute wasn't permanent, the mute was to prevent you from saying more incendiary shit and give you time to calm down.

Guy - Today at 4:15 PM
and you dont result to insulting
which you are doing right now, by the way.
then talk to us.

voksul - Today at 4:16 PM
Again, the problem isn't you having a problem.
it.
is.
because
you
lashed
out
in
fucking
general.
All you had to do was come talk to me.
All you had to was ask for me to bring you and Em together and have a talk as a group before you started screaming in general chat.
But you didn't.
Guy - Today at 4:17 PM
I didn't, you're right, i made a mistake.

voksul - Today at 4:17 PM
And that's the entire reason why you were muted.

Guy - Today at 4:17 PM
Shouldn't have "lashed out" and maybe I should have aired my grievences in a private manner rather than public.

voksul - Today at 4:17 PM
You won't be muted for having problems, you'll be muted for attacking people IN FRONT OF EVERYONE.
Yes.

Guy - Today at 4:18 PM
But it does not justify muting.
It did not solve anything and it only created more problems.

voksul - Today at 4:18 PM
It absolutely does.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:18 PM
Guy is my best friend. When he gets mad. I get mad.(if he gets hurt. I get furious.) If he's happy I am happy. So yea and if he asks me for help I'll try as best as I can. But i can only do so much before I'm done(edited)

Guy - Today at 4:18 PM
Problems that you refuse to acknowledge
It does not justify muting.
thank you btw biki 😦 ❤

voksul - Today at 4:19 PM
I even warned you I was going to mute you and you continued to be abusive.

Guy - Today at 4:19 PM
because i didnt think you'd actually do something so disrespectful.
every single person in chat i talked to about it said they were shocked you actually muted me.

voksul - Today at 4:19 PM
because they've only heard you tell your side of the argument.

Guy - Today at 4:20 PM
And then you muted me so they only hear your side of the argument.

voksul - Today at 4:20 PM
and neither Boo nor Biki seem wholy committed to your point for any other reason other than that they're friends with you.

Guy - Today at 4:20 PM
how do you know? you don't know what they told me privately.

voksul - Today at 4:20 PM
Again, the mute wasn't to suppress your argument, it was to prevent you from being further disruptive at that point in time.

Guy - Today at 4:21 PM
Now you're being disrespectful again.

TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:21 PM
I do agree with guy

Guy - Today at 4:21 PM
Again you're trying to disregard the problem by saying "oh no one is even agreeing with you, there is no problem".
Listen, at the end of the day if that's how you wanna run this server
it's your decision dude.
Ain't nothing I can do about it and I am not gonna raise my voice about it.

voksul - Today at 4:21 PM
I literally told you that as soon as you were willing to calm down and actually address your issue (which you still aren't, evidently, given that you refuse to even mention it) in a calm and reasonable manner outside of general chat
I'd unmute you.

Guy - Today at 4:22 PM
But i've told you how me and biki and grizzly and amin and boot and many other people are now feeling about your behaviour and how you run this chat.

voksul - Today at 4:22 PM
But I can't exactly trust you to be reasonable when you were just yelling in all caps in general chat and comparing me to a dictator while pleading to be unmuted.

Guy - Today at 4:23 PM
you're not gonna convince me that it was the right idea
And you're not regaining my trust or biki's trust
we're still feeling like it's now a lot more risky to talk in the chat, like there are a group of people who have more value in the chat
and your words won't change it because you still say that you will continue the muting policy.

voksul - Today at 4:24 PM
and I've explained to you why that feeling is unfounded.

Guy - Today at 4:24 PM
So yea, that's just the reality.
Doesn't matter why YOU feel like it's unfounded.
It's not gonna change a damn thing.
You're being unreasonably stubborn.

voksul - Today at 4:25 PM
No, I'm not. You've yet to explain to me why my responses to your problems are wrong; they're just not what you wanted to hear so you ignore them.

Guy - Today at 4:26 PM
They're wrong to us because we still feel like we want to be treated equally within a group of people we count as friends

voksul - Today at 4:26 PM
It does not matter if you feel like there's a hypothetical power structure oppressing you; the fact of the matter is that there isn't.

Guy - Today at 4:26 PM
because your responses are only reinforncing the notion that you view yourself as more important in this chat and getting to decide who talks and who doesnt talk
did you just unironically say "It doesn't matter if you feel hurt or offended, fact of the matter is youre not so get over it?"
See, that's why I am 100% sure you're not listening to me.

voksul - Today at 4:28 PM
No, the fact of the matter is that the thing you're getting hurt or offended over doesn't exist as you imagine it.

Guy - Today at 4:28 PM
http://d278sointswlfn.cloudfront.net/8bac559e2df6b54d609f9d63d5e6a03a%2F565x0xwidth%2F75%2Fhttp%2Fblog.uloop.com%2Fuloop%2Fr%3D305%2Fjpg%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2FLouis-1-450x195.jpg

voksul - Today at 4:28 PM
I understand that you feel hurt.

Guy - Today at 4:28 PM
No, you don't.
You don't understand voks.

voksul - Today at 4:28 PM
I apologize that my actions may have caused you to feel hurt.

Guy - Today at 4:29 PM
You don't get to decide that there is no power structure to US
you don't get to decide that the decision to mute is logical and not disrespectful to US
maybe it is to you
maybe you feel like there's no power structure
But we don't share that feeling.

voksul - Today at 4:29 PM
You're actually making me angry.
Should you have to apologize and drop your argument because you've made me feel hurt?

Guy - Today at 4:30 PM
I don't think you're in a position to have a civil discussion voksul.
How about we continue this some other time since clearly, you're too angry to have a discussion
annd you may lash out at any given moment
and none of us want that

voksul - Today at 4:30 PM
You have to be kidding me.

Guy - Today at 4:31 PM
Listen, it's all good. Me and biki are going to continue feeling what we're feeling and you're gonna do nothing about it and continue to shit all over the way you feel
and it's fine. glad we talked

voksul - Today at 4:31 PM
There is no power structure as you imagine it in the real world.(edited)

Guy - Today at 4:31 PM
Trust me we will not bring anything wrong up in the general chat, it'll be civility 101

voksul - Today at 4:31 PM
Biki's already stated that she's on your side no matter how silly it is.

Guy - Today at 4:31 PM
Ah yes, my opinions and thoughts are silly
Thank you voksul that's not disrespectful at all
^-^

voksul - Today at 4:32 PM
That's not what that meant and you know it.

Guy - Today at 4:32 PM
Or maybe you don't understand the concept of
people feeling differently about things than you

voksul - Today at 4:32 PM
You feel oppressed by an imagined power structure. The power structure you think is oppressing you does not exist.
But you feel like it's oppressing you. I can do nothing about that until you realize that there is no power structure.

Guy - Today at 4:33 PM
You just described the official motto of a tyranny, voksul.
In an unbelievably demeaning, ironic and laughably comical way, you just described the official motto of a tyranny.
"You feel opressed, but the power structure you think is oppressing you does not exist".

voksul - Today at 4:34 PM
I just facedesked. That isn't what tyranny is. Tyranny involves an oppressive ruler that actually, you know, exists.

Guy - Today at 4:35 PM
And yet it always tries to convince those it's oppressing that it does not exist
Funny how that works, huh

voksul - Today at 4:36 PM
I've explained to you why it's imagined.

Guy - Today at 4:36 PM
Voksul, baby, beauty, hunny, love-nugget. I am tired of this conversation. Clearly you're angry and not able to have a civil conversation at this point in time.
You need a few hours to calm down
Go watch youtube perhaps?

voksul - Today at 4:37 PM
The moderators are not better than you, they are just people I personally trust and hung out with before inviting the greater portion of the people that now frequent this Discord.
You may think they're better than you, but they aren't.
They can be punished too if they act out of line.
But to you, the fact that you feel like a power dynamic exists is more important than the fact taht no such power dynamic exists.

Guy - Today at 4:38 PM
But you still refuse to understand that by giving them the ability to punish people you've put them in a more special position than anyone else in the chat, a position that includes censorship if they don't like it.

voksul - Today at 4:38 PM
You are acting like a child, and it's becoming obnoxious. Immature callbacks win you no respect.
dude
if they censor anything
Guy - Today at 4:38 PM
No, I am just using the same exact words you're using.

voksul - Today at 4:38 PM
I'd remove their ability to mod.

Guy - Today at 4:39 PM
Voks, let's just put it this way.

voksul - Today at 4:39 PM
the only thing they're censoring is you being an incorrigible jerk in front of everyone.
You are absolutely, positively crazy if you are actually convinced your viewpoint has any basis in fact.

Guy - Today at 4:39 PM
We're all good. The chat's good, no one's gonna bring anything up. But me and biki have umendable brokable bonds with you
that you for some reason think you can fix by calling us crazy
which is.. an interesting theory to say the least, but sure(edited)
And that's just how it's gonna stay apparently
So be it

voksul - Today at 4:40 PM
Then there's nothing I can do about it, and will have to live with it.

Guy - Today at 4:40 PM
As long as nobody is bringing it up, nothing's wrong

voksul - Today at 4:40 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way.
because nothing I say will convince you otherwise.

Guy - Today at 4:41 PM
Right voks, blame me, I don't really mind.

voksul - Today at 4:43 PM
I've explained (repeatedly, I might add) why I don't think your perspective is reasonable. Instead of refuting these points, you simply say that you will judge me for not kneeling to the objections I've already addressed a dozen times at this point.
That is where we stand right now.

Guy - Today at 4:44 PM
in your mind, i suppose. picture is kinda different from where i'm standing.

voksul - Today at 4:45 PM
I understand that you feel victimized,  but you haven't been able to argue that hat feeling of victimization is at all justified in reality.

Guy - Today at 4:45 PM
i have argued that
you just refused my arguments
which is fine, i suppose.
i don't really mind
can we wrap this up?

voksul - Today at 4:46 PM
No, I provided a counterargument to those points.

Guy - Today at 4:46 PM
my head seriously hurts

voksul - Today at 4:46 PM
a counterargument which you summarily reject.

Guy - Today at 4:46 PM
and i refuted those arguments in a fashion that's unsatisfory to you
because i disagree with your counter arguments and their truthfulness

voksul - Today at 4:46 PM
it's unsatisfactory to reality, my friend.

Guy - Today at 4:47 PM
can we wrap this up? we'll never reach an agreement
If you think how you see things is the ultimate reality then so be it, my friend
.
voksul - Today at 4:47 PM
Like, I understand that you feel victimized but I've explained OVER AND OVER AND OVER again why the mechanisms of that victimization don't really exist.
to which you've responded(edited)
"Yeah, but it still feels like it does."
and I can do nothing about that.

Guy - Today at 4:48 PM
they don't exist in your mind.
They do exist in my mind and a lot of other people's mind.
there IS no ultimate reality to compare to on this matter because it's all a matter of perspective

voksul - Today at 4:48 PM
and my perspective, as far as I can tell by the fact that you cannot explain why I'm wrong, more closely aligns with reality than yours.
Are you fucking kidding me?

Guy - Today at 4:49 PM
a hierarchy is an abstract concept voksul.

voksul - Today at 4:49 PM
REALITY is the ultimate reality.

Guy - Today at 4:49 PM
you perceive something to not be a hierarchy and i perceive it to be a heirarchy.
it's not numbers ot a table ot a window
it's a fucking concept.

voksul - Today at 4:49 PM
Abstractness doesn't mean it doesn't have to have grounds in reality.

Guy - Today at 4:50 PM
and in my opinion it has grounds in reality, grounds which you don't think make it into a hierarchy
guess what, neither of us are "right"
stop trying to impose the way you view the world on other people.

voksul - Today at 4:50 PM
And your opinion is not based at all in the reality that is the REAL FUCKING WORLD.

Guy - Today at 4:51 PM
and i deem it is sbased in the reality of the real fucking world.
Also, you're getting abusive there with your all caps and profanities.
you don't wanna upset the mods, i heard they're trigger-happy.

voksul - Today at 4:52 PM
I apologize that from your perspective I've victimized you or created a system of victimization that offends you. But from the perspective of an omniscient, unbiased observer, your perspective is almost entirely unjustified.
I can't do anything about your feelings if the stuf causing your feelings doesn't exist as you imagine them to.

Guy - Today at 4:52 PM
which omniscient unbiased observer? i don't see any.
all i see is a person yelling at me that i am wrong.
voks, seriously
let's just stop.
okay, please remove this channel
i'm gonna stop typing in this channel