T 1386124429  20 < Boilerplate >   30	I guess we can talk here without everything being chaotic in the main chat room
T 1386124461  18 < agnosticnixie >  	heh
T 1386124503  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well...did you read the postbin completely by anychance?
T 1386124518  18 < agnosticnixie >  	not all of it
T 1386124532  20 < Boilerplate >   30	well besure to read all of it to understand it all
T 1386124567  18 < agnosticnixie >  	basically I spent a few days rewriting a ton of shit and a dozen different creation myths with fairly close origins, using a few persian legends, the mahabharata, and particularly an ancient story that's found across the whole indo-european area (except greece) and some parts of africa (I suspect because these cultures also had similar lives based around being bovine pastoralists)
T 1386124616  18 < agnosticnixie >  	(greece is always an exception, iirc the main theory is that minoan influence was big enough to acculturate the greeks from the rest of general PIE cultures in many areas)
T 1386124708  20 < Boilerplate >   30	First of all I'll link the pastebin so you don't have to go to the main chat room to find it just in case: http://pastebin.com/c6ZSLwdj
T 1386124785  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Of course this is from #cam-occ from DarkMyst
T 1386124789  18 < agnosticnixie >  	I see
T 1386124808  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Which is a WoD based channel
T 1386124971  20 < Boilerplate >   30	I wonder if could quote the people on there especially the "Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties" especially towards you reach the end that's when the possible bullshit becomes apparent.
T 1386124986  20 < Boilerplate >   30	and well comment on them
T 1386125010  18 < agnosticnixie >  	sure
T 1386125049  18 < agnosticnixie >  	that said I disagree with limiting the west to christianity - islam and christianity are a hell of a lot closer as far as traditions and thought goes than most other religious groups
T 1386125093  18 < agnosticnixie >  	I know it's not quite accurate and tbh the west/east terminology was a divide in european/mediterranean cultures, not a worldwide divide
T 1386125095  20 < Boilerplate >   30	While the only place Judahism dominates is Israel
T 1386125105  18 < agnosticnixie >  	israel doesn't matter
T 1386125167  20 < Boilerplate >   30	I guess even the entire "West/East" divide is imperialist mentality?
T 1386125184  18 < agnosticnixie >  	er
T 1386125186  18 < agnosticnixie >  	not really
T 1386125194  20 < Boilerplate >   30	well what is it then?
T 1386125203  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it's dumber than that
T 1386125214  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it comes from the late roman empire
T 1386125248  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it's just that a lot of scholars medieval scholars, both christians and muslims, read more significance into it than it really had
T 1386125269  18 < agnosticnixie >  	when the empire was divided between two co-emperors and two vice emperors under them
T 1386125342  20 < Boilerplate >   30	So that's how dumb it is, it came from divide of two mass empires
T 1386125387  18 < agnosticnixie >  	the fact that christianity split, and then islam expanded over most of the east, effectively reinforced this idea of a divide, but it was mostly still roman inheritance
T 1386125407  18 < agnosticnixie >  	Rome has a lot to answer for as far as how both europe and the middle east behave
T 1386125415  20 < Boilerplate >   30	and it continues till this day with the whole "West/East" divide even present in the WoD with the whole "Kuie-Jinn" part
T 1386125424  18 < agnosticnixie >  	that's different actually
T 1386125440  20 < Boilerplate >   30	how is it different?
T 1386125442  18 < agnosticnixie >  	the east in the WoD is specifically the far east
T 1386125444  18 < agnosticnixie >  	i.e. magical china
T 1386125472  18 < agnosticnixie >  	China was largely seen as borderline another world - it's this exotic faraway place we only know through mongol traders and shit like that
T 1386125500  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it's just annoying that they had that bullshit in wod but that's a symptom of the 80s
T 1386125529  20 < Boilerplate >   30	well I think you can read this article as well: http://arsmarginal.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/kuei-jin-the-exotic/
T 1386125533  18 < agnosticnixie >  	with Shadowrun and Cyberpunk also obsessing over Japan and China to the point of making the "new yen" the world currency in Shadowrun
T 1386125560  18 < agnosticnixie >  	Oh I know, read most pieces, I hate the casual orientalism of kindreds of the east and never, ever used it in campaign
T 1386125572  18 < agnosticnixie >  	instead I made up some vampire clans based on other chinese monsters :p
T 1386125639  20 < Boilerplate >   30	I guess I'm not the only one and also Geisha the one who wrote the article she's mostly active at the #theborderhouse at QuakeNet
T 1386125647  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it's impressive that their african sourcebook looked downright neutral considering how racist the China and Gypsies books were
T 1386125689  18 < agnosticnixie >  	also on somethingawful the fact that the PRC was somehow still treated as having the same cultural myths as ancient china despite state opposition to the old imperial religions
T 1386125700  18 < agnosticnixie >  	made a lot of eyes roll
T 1386125791  20 < Boilerplate >   30	can you link to that somethingaweful page?
T 1386125801  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it's in their archives at this point
T 1386125808  18 < agnosticnixie >  	takes a paid sub to get in :p
T 1386125830  20 < Boilerplate >   30	At least there's the Geisha article I linked to though
T 1386125882  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Also are you still reading the pastebin first of all?
T 1386125889  18 < agnosticnixie >  	I finished it
T 1386125903  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well any comments on it?
T 1386125904  18 < agnosticnixie >  	not sure what the hell the other one was talking about at the end
T 1386125964  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Hmmm...something to do that "In the large grand scheme of things you have no impact" or something like that
T 1386126010  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Basically they claimed that the Romans approated Norse and Greek and Africans included things in their oral tales
T 1386126030  18 < agnosticnixie >  	heh
T 1386126047  18 < agnosticnixie >  	depends really
T 1386126083  20 < Boilerplate >   30	"<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> no not everything else syncretizes
T 1386126083  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> roman appropriated the greek and norse
T 1386126083  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> there are several african tribes that incorporate new things into their oral history and treat them as having always been part of it"
T 1386126141  18 < agnosticnixie >  	first off the romans were barely aware of the cultures around the baltic, aside from the traders who actually got there
T 1386126179  18 < agnosticnixie >  	secondly this claim of "rome appropriated the greeks" usually comes from detestable hellenophiles with their head stuck in their ass who think nothing in the ancient world happened if there wasn't a greek to see it
T 1386126232  20 < Boilerplate >   30	So their once again wrong...what about the Africans?
T 1386126255  18 < agnosticnixie >  	not entirely wrong, it's just far more widely than that
T 1386126269  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it's done pretty much everywhere
T 1386126361  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Of course though if you read the pastebin carefully what we're basically talking about that I wanted a world where well basically to avoid the "One Myth to Explain them all" trope and they keep saying if two cutlures "overlap they fall apart" or something like that
T 1386126385  20 < Boilerplate >   30	"<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> when you look at cultures individually, they all are correct, when you start looking at them collectively, it's when they overlap, steal, incoprorate, or change things when everything falls apar
T 1386126385  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> apart"
T 1386126523  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Since they claim that all myths have a creation story and they gave me a fallacy of "choosing one or the other" and I said "All of them are true"
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	However the very last quote by EvilVentureTies is: <`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> it's a practice used to "convert" conquests
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> incorporate their shit and they will convert
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> in simplistic terms
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<Boilerplate> However the main point is the one who is doing the incorporting doesn't mean their right which is merely justifying their actions.
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<Boilerplate> i.e. "Our culture is dominating you there we are right and you are wrong"
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<Boilerplate> *therefore
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	* DarthDavid_ooc has quit (Quit: Energy never dies, it just changes form)
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> history, andf to a large extent Mythology, is written by the victor, and those in charge....look at the bible ass an example and the councile of nicae......
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<Boilerplate> Doesn't mean the victor doesn't have to have define reality.
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<Boilerplate> Doesn't mean the victor have to have define reality.
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<Boilerplate> I mean
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<Boilerplate> *has
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	* Sefina (Sefina@58-89-80-36.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net) has left
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> to put it in game terms, he with the most status, is right
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> if you don't agree, you are "wrong", and don't matter
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	* Thadius_Gustov (Kloninjer@ytt-338-812-280-392.carolina.res.rr.com) has joined
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> is it right?
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> no
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> is it accepted?
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> yes
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<Boilerplate> I don't accept it
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> is it a bitch to try and change the outlook when proof exists counter to popular accepted theory
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> hell yes
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> whether one person accepts it or not, has no impact on the greater scheme of things
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	<`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> undeniable definitive proof is needed to change things
T 1386126589  20 < Boilerplate >   30	* `Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties (xxx@555-85-05-87.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) has left
T 1386126612  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Notice that he quickly left
T 1386126627  20 < Boilerplate >   30	shortly after that discussion
T 1386126654  18 < agnosticnixie >  	what
T 1386126656  18 < agnosticnixie >  	heh
T 1386126701  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well just trying to make you understand what we're talking about
T 1386126725  20 < Boilerplate >   30	since you said <agnosticnixie> not sure what the hell the other one was talking about at the end
T 1386126768  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well especially his last quote unnerved me the most about the <`Evil`OWoD-Ventrue-Ties> whether one person accepts it or not, has no impact on the greater scheme of things
T 1386126915  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Sorry if I confused there for a second
T 1386126920  20 < Boilerplate >   30	*you
T 1386127009  18 < agnosticnixie >  	oh
T 1386127033  18 < agnosticnixie >  	I think in that case he meant that culture is more than just one person or something, I'm not sure
T 1386127122  20 < Boilerplate >   30	maybe you may need to read the pastebin more carefully
T 1386127132  20 < Boilerplate >   30	which you might understand
T 1386127153  20 < Boilerplate >   30	with the context of that conversation
T 1386127201  18 < agnosticnixie >  	probably, yes
T 1386127233  20 < Boilerplate >   30	I think you probably skimmed through and not read carefully anough
T 1386127260  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Try reading carefully again which you'll understand better
T 1386127268  20 < Boilerplate >   30	hopfully
T 1386135916  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Still here?
T 1386137099  18 < agnosticnixie >  	sorry I had to make dinner and dozed off
T 1386137277  20 < Boilerplate >   30	oh...well did you read the pastebin carefully?
T 1386137595  18 < agnosticnixie >  	not all of it
T 1386137752  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well besure to read all of it to understand the situation better.
T 1386142350  20 < Boilerplate >   30	well...
T 1386142372  18 < agnosticnixie >  	well I was going to sleep due to having things to do tomorrow morning
T 1386142373  18 < agnosticnixie >  	>.>
T 1386142374  18 < agnosticnixie >  	sorry
T 1386142397  20 < Boilerplate >   30	oh...maybe next time
T 1386177334  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Hello
T 1386180891  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well are you here?
T 1386180946  18 < agnosticnixie >  	I wasn't
T 1386180958  20 < Boilerplate >   30	oh
T 1386180969  20 < Boilerplate >   30	oh wait...what? Who said that?
T 1386181096  20 < Boilerplate >   30	blech
T 1386181107  18 < agnosticnixie >  	you misunderstood what ventrue meant by stolen btw
T 1386181127  20 < Boilerplate >   30	what did he mean?
T 1386181136  18 < agnosticnixie >  	he means that they came from outside
T 1386181188  20 < Boilerplate >   30	but I wonder what he's wrong on though
T 1386181291  18 < agnosticnixie >  	he's wrong on the bit about norse, he's also wrong on the victor defining reality
T 1386181298  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it's actually a lot more complicated than that
T 1386181316  18 < agnosticnixie >  	e.g. the germanic invasions in western europe or the manchu invasions in china
T 1386181361  18 < agnosticnixie >  	they established dynasties, kingdoms, etc, but assimilated within the population as the natives were more numerous, more settled and had a strong literate culture
T 1386181385  18 < agnosticnixie >  	the victor only gets to write so much
T 1386181392  20 < Boilerplate >   30	I knew something was up about the whole "The Victor defines reality and one who doesn't accepts it doesn't affect the grand scheme of things"
T 1386181398  18 < agnosticnixie >  	the less history focuses on great men, the less they do
T 1386181453  20 < Boilerplate >   30	I think within his context I think he was trying to justify the Christian centricism of the WoD
T 1386181467  18 < agnosticnixie >  	I don't really know
T 1386181486  18 < agnosticnixie >  	although as I keep saying - the mythology is mostly jewish and probably closer to islam than christianity in parts :p
T 1386181504  18 < agnosticnixie >  	demons is the only line that takes a christian stance
T 1386181513  18 < agnosticnixie >  	hell, Gehenna takes a gnostic position
T 1386181522  18 < agnosticnixie >  	(i.e. god is evil)
T 1386181584  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Although I think the Abrahamic God has his origins or he's really the Caanite deity Yawheh or EL
T 1386181608  18 < agnosticnixie >  	EL wasn't a canaanite god
T 1386181618  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Since "Angels" are a extensions hence "AngEL"
T 1386181623  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it's just the general word for god
T 1386181684  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Hence it makes the entire Lucifer rebelling against God contradictory...although I also read some stuff that God told him to
T 1386181698  18 < agnosticnixie >  	also that's more or less meaningless; truth is most of the semitic tribes in the region had fairly similar mythologies until the hebrews split off from the main branch in the Maccabean era; for one the jewish patriarchs corresponds to the sumerian king list
T 1386181710  18 < agnosticnixie >  	also Lucifer rebelling against god is a christian conceit
T 1386181720  18 < agnosticnixie >  	christian/muslim
T 1386181725  18 < agnosticnixie >  	which doesn't exist in judaism
T 1386181734  18 < agnosticnixie >  	in islam he's a rebellious djinn
T 1386181746  18 < agnosticnixie >  	who refused to bow to Adam
T 1386181807  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well actually the biggest problems I have with Abrahamic mythology is it's portrayl of women as well
T 1386181842  18 < agnosticnixie >  	in no way unique to it
T 1386181881  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Since for one thing, if all women came from Eve that means they all share her curse (painful child bearing and also submitting to her husband therefore it would make feminism in the world impossible by that logic).
T 1386181958  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Which shows how Androcentric Abrahamic mythology really is
T 1386181984  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Since it's entirely male driven and women are irrelevant in it
T 1386182042  20 < Boilerplate >   30	I don't know if I'm correct or not
T 1386182130  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Of course the whole "Lilith is Adam's first wife" was actually just a midrashm actually
T 1386182185  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Which the WoD also uses but of course human women don't come from her though, they come from Eve
T 1386182214  20 < Boilerplate >   30	and if they come from Eve, they all share her curse...see where I'm getting at?
T 1386182331  20 < Boilerplate >   30	While Lilith in such a setting is probably the only woman who doesn't have the curse of Eve which is how she can birth all those demons and not submitting to Adam.
T 1386182439  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Plus according to the setting, Lilith was made equally as Adam while Eve came from his rib
T 1386182492  20 < Boilerplate >   30	therefore making Eve and all her offspring automatically subjected to men while Lilith is not.
T 1386182619  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Actually I just remember reading "Confessiosn of the Dark Mother" or something and it mentions Eve being made from the same material.
T 1386182722  18 < agnosticnixie >  	you know you don't have to take it literally, right?
T 1386182737  18 < agnosticnixie >  	the rib thing, especially, is a horrible pun in hebrew
T 1386182760  20 < Boilerplate >   30	what it's punning?
T 1386182833  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it's something to do with the hebrew word for woman
T 1386183026  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well lastly there's also Genesis: 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
T 1386183175  20 < Boilerplate >   30	That's the "Curse of Eve" I was refferring to
T 1386183214  20 < Boilerplate >   30	especially the "and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." is the number one problem I have
T 1386184242  20 < Boilerplate >   30	well...are you still here?
T 1386184496  20 < Boilerplate >   30	hello?
T 1386184901  18 < agnosticnixie >  	I am, I'm just thinking anddoing a few things at the same time
T 1386184957  20 < Boilerplate >   30	oh....well any comments based what I've said eariler ago?
T 1386185338  18 < agnosticnixie >  	you're taking the mythology too literally
T 1386185457  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well I thought literal means 'accurate' but I guess I'm wrong?
T 1386185471  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well what's the reason for not taking things so literally?
T 1386185524  18 < agnosticnixie >  	no, literal means literal
T 1386185551  18 < agnosticnixie >  	it means taking everything written at face value with no room for interpretation, metaphor, or abstraction
T 1386185638  18 < agnosticnixie >  	a literal translation is generally the worst kind you can do
T 1386185902  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Well I thought it was originally written to be taken litterly and I thought it was made clear...as I originally thought.
T 1386186006  18 < agnosticnixie >  	that's not really quite how myth works
T 1386186025  20 < Boilerplate >   30	How does it work then?
T 1386186657  18 < agnosticnixie >  	that would be long to explain
T 1386186684  20 < Boilerplate >   30	hmmm....
T 1386186706  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Maybe you could try to give the short version? Or take your time explaining it?
T 1386186722  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Or maybe there's a article somewhere explaining how myths work?
T 1386188664  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Anyway...I wonder if you could visit #cam-occ at DarkMyst to reason with those people?
T 1386188708  20 < Boilerplate >   30	well another channel I think you could hang out at is the #theborderhouse at QuakeNet
T 1386213860  20 < Boilerplate >   30	Hello
T 1386214339  18 < agnosticnixie >  	hi
T 1386214386  20 < Boilerplate >   30	well...how's it going?
T 1386214782  20 < Boilerplate >   30	anyway...are you thinking about joining those channels I've listed?