<gammafunk> I wouldn't mind it if we removed the beogh water walking thing
<gammafunk> for the same reasons
<gammafunk> it's also a pretty low-impact ability
<|amethyst> IMO Zin is much worse than that
<gammafunk> that may be true, but they're both quite bad
<gammafunk> I mean, I'm not sure Zin is really something you can tie to christianity
<|amethyst> judaism
<gammafunk> but afaik water walking is specifically a christianity thing
<Doesnty> zin is generic old lawful god
<gammafunk> |amethyst: well what about Zin is truly an overt reference to judaism?
<dpeg> I was involved with these gods, and I tried to split various aspects of Christianity (of which there are plenty) onto E1ZB.
<gammafunk> water walking seems definitely a reference to jesus
<dpeg> It is.
<|amethyst> gammafunk: I don't think it's overt, but the gold thing feels ickily antisemitic
<dpeg> |amethyst: what??
<gammafunk> |amethyst: hrm, well then so does gozag?
<dpeg> this is the tithe
<Doesnty> it's a tithe
<|amethyst> yes, but
<SteelNeuron> gammafunk: sorry, I'll probably rebase again, didn't think of it! Or squash some commits
<gammafunk> seems to a not really a direct reference to me, not that I'm well-versed in judaism
<dpeg> in the medieval ages, everone had to pay 10% of everything to the Church
<gammafunk> SteelNeuron: great, yeah just nice to have a desc. of what those things do without reading the commit
<|amethyst> I don't think it's a direct reference, and it's probably not intentional (as pointed out, it's specifically a reference to the Christian tithe)
<dpeg> the cool Zin speech is courtesy of Eronarn's, and that's clearly Old Testament inspired
<gammafunk> yeah that is a somewhat direct reference as well, the speech
<dpeg> |amethyst: for the record, I am absolutely against changing something because someone *could* be offended
<dpeg> with "Jihad", things were different
<gammafunk> dpeg: well that's precisely what we did with Jihad
<dpeg> exactly
<gammafunk> exactly?
<gammafunk> but you just said you're against doing that
<dpeg> erm, the other way around
<|amethyst> gammafunk: I think dpeg's saying that people actually were offended
<|amethyst> or maybe not?
<gammafunk> right, someone actually complained, but I've heard people complain about various christian-like things
<gammafunk> I mean even |amethyst did just now
<|amethyst> I don't really think Zin *should* be changed, but wouldn't be terribly upset if it happened
<dpeg> with Jihad, we are using a term that's not ours (I assume we have no-one from Muslim faith or at least descendence in the team)... but I can definitely explain the tithe, and the water walking, and if someone is offended by that, I can shrug it off because I know what I am talking about -- also these have no political meanings (anymore)
<gammafunk> Jihad is definitely more a hot-button thing than these, but the concept is the same, and it's a bit unfair to say "we fix this because of politics but not that"
<Floodkiller> I think if someone proposes a change, regardless of the reasons why, and nobody is adverse to implementing/agreeing to merge it, then why not?
<gammafunk> yeah
<Floodkiller> I look at it from the same angle as removing High Elves
<dpeg> Floodkiller: yes, good policy, as always :)
<gammafunk> if someone wanted to rework zin flavor that could be a good project
<gammafunk> it's a heck of a lot more work though
<gammafunk> maybe I can think about beogh water walking, since that's a smaller thing to change
<dpeg> for a related example: I was annoyed by the old unique Adolf, and I complained so long until Haran (who wasn't offended!) renamed him to Frederick
<dpeg> gammafunk: I love Beogh water walking, and I know players who laughed (not lol-ed) when they got it for the first time
<gammafunk> dpeg: same can be said for Jihad
<dpeg> well, the difference is that with water walking some dev would complain!
<gammafunk> I don't think the issue is whether people laughed at it or just liked it
<gammafunk> yeah, but this dev is complaining
<dpeg> I was never offended by Jozef, however. And then Adam pointed out that this is probably a reference to Stalin, which offended him. So Jozef got the works.
<gammafunk> it's not like our standard for a change is "does dpeg complain"
<gammafunk> (or "does gamamfunk complain"), but I think what Floodkiller said is a good summary
<dpeg> Floodkiller: I think if someone proposes a change [...] and nobody is adverse [...], then why not?
<Doesnty> hey what if butchering was removed
<dpeg> jpeg and I thought a bit about how to convey the idea that you're now the messiah of the orcs, and we thought of Nethack-style crowning, or an actual crown, and then we found that water walking expresses all of this in a neater and cuter way
<gammafunk> dpeg: another thing to think about re Jihad is, if we did have a developer of middle-eastern background (either muslim or not) who did add this reference, it wouldn't make any difference as to whether this offends other muslims
<dpeg> |amethyst: my proposal was that a monster produces either chunk or corpse, to reduce the number of additional piles
<gammafunk> us simply 'knowing' what we're referencing doesn't prevent it from offending people who actually worship the thing we reference
<dpeg> gammafunk: yes, but it helps
<gammafunk> I mean it theoretically does, but it doesn't prevent said offense
<dpeg> a whole bunch of people could be righteously offended by the core gameplay of Crawl, and I say we shouldn't care if they speak up
<gammafunk> well we made this change for exactly this reason
<dpeg> no, we made the change because *we* were not happy with Jihad, that's the crucial point to me!
<gammafunk> both we and players were not happy, yes
<dpeg> that's why I told the stories about Adolf and Jozef upthread
<gammafunk> but clearly this would not have been changed if a player had not complained
<dpeg> it's true that a player pointed it out, but it resonated with us
<gammafunk> and believe me, players complain about the christian references as well
<dpeg> but doesn't resonate with me
<gammafunk> and the christian/judaism thing resonates with me (and some other devs)
<|amethyst> people also complain about the idolatry
<dpeg> man, they will just love altar desecration in the name of the falled god
<|amethyst> which can't be solved without removing or completely retheming religion
<gammafunk> right it can be a very slippery slope, and I agree there should be some dev impetus (but if it's there we should allow it!)
<dpeg> to me, Jihad is icky on the level of Adolf (Hitler) and Jozef (Stalin, after Adam made the connection for me)... We should not even try to make Crawl a happy playground for everyone, because then nothing would be left.
<gammafunk> well beogh is a racist god of mass-murders and has a direct christian reference
<Floodkiller> if it's more complicated of a problem than just a ctrl+f change, then obviously there would be discussion about it
<gammafunk> that's pretty icky to me
<dpeg> gammafunk: yes, and Christianity has displayed exactly such traits
<gammafunk> uh?
<|amethyst> ...
<dpeg> Beogh is my reference to that part of the Christian past
<Doesnty> o.o
<dpeg> this channel needs a history lesson?
<gammafunk> I think that's extremely hypocritical
<|amethyst> dpeg: do you really want people coming here giving us history lessons on how Islam is violent and expansionist
<dpeg> Karl Martell, the hammer of the muslims?
<dpeg> Malleus malleficarum, the hammer of the witches?
<dpeg> every other anti-semitic progrome in the dark ages?
<dpeg> Christianity has other traits too, for that we have Elyvilon
<|amethyst> So is Christianity the only religion we're allowed to malign?
<dpeg> it is the only one *I* can malign, yes
<|amethyst> but I thought you were an atheist?
<dpeg> I had no problems with maligning anything, but I cannot do it
<dpeg> |amethyst: I know a thing or two about the history of Europe and its religions
<gammafunk> the point is we're not using crawl as a platform for relgious/cultural criticism
<dpeg> I was behind the flavour of Ely, Beogh and, lesser so, Zin and TSO; I could write a report about what's going on there and how they were informed by the history of Christianity
<dpeg> gammafunk: I made Gozag as a parable on capitalism
<dpeg> (do say parable?)
<dpeg> Crawl is a game, hence part of art
<gammafunk> sorry, I will not buy the "crawl can make fun of a religion specifically if it's christianity"; there's no place for that in the game imo
<dpeg> it doesn't exist in empty space, all the fantasy blurb nonwithstanding
<gammafunk> but in the end people can compromise, and suggest changes for any patch that gets made (and I don't have one right now anyhow)
<dpeg> I didn't make any of these gods to make jokes on Christianity
<dpeg> (admittedly, the water walking *is* a joke, but I've actually talked to Christians about and they could laugh, too... if you're offended by this, then you probably got bigger worries than a video game)
<dpeg> I was inspired by existing religion (history of religion, rather).
<Doesnty> christianity is very fractured
<dpeg> absolutely
<gammafunk> I believe several forum posters informed that muslim tavern poster the same way
<Doesnty> which makes it pretty easy for me to look at beogh and not get offended at all
<dpeg> Doesnty: thank you :)
<|amethyst> most religions are rather fractured
<gammafunk> right
<dpeg> gammafunk: yes, I believe that. My point is that the poster was only the messenger. He pointed out that Jihad might by icky. We actually agreed, but that was our decision.
<gammafunk> dpeg all I have to do is sneak the patch in on a rainy day, when you're away
<gammafunk> boom, it's done
<gammafunk> then you'll have to yell at me via pm