<Lord_Gareth> Domochevsky - Do you expect our market for VideoGaiden to be particularly smarter? I mean, maybe if we can get the thing sold over Steam or something
<Domochevsky> Ideally, yes
<@Maven-> I'm not sure what exactly the game offers at this point to excite people
<Domochevsky> I'm aiming for gog as primary platform, with steam as secondary option (much shakier to actually get on there and not be immediately flooded off by 18 iterations of Flappy Bird clone number 88)
<Domochevsky> At this point? Not much. The story(telling) will be a major grab, same as the setting. That it'll play well is a bonus
<Domochevsky> It'll also cure parts of cancer
<Domochevsky> Makes you prettier, too
<@Maven-> You have so many damn limitations on the aesthetic and storyline of this game that less desperate writers would tell you to write the damn thing yourself.
<PhantomFox> I guess I have to ask that if you're not writing for your readers... who are you writing for?
<Domochevsky> I suppose he already answered that. He's trying to sneak some quality under their noses ;P
<Lord_Gareth> PhantomFox - Hating my readership is not the same as not writing for them
<Lord_Gareth> I am beholden to them.
<PhantomFox> How so?
<Domochevsky> He has a weird relationship to people in general. :|
<@Maven-> Honestly, I think the best case scenario for the game is that we straight up rip off Final Fantasy Tactics or something
<@Maven-> in terms of gameplay
<Domochevsky> Never actually played it, come to think of it
<@Maven-> well it's fairly simple
<@Maven-> there are X races, each of which have access to Y jobs
<Lord_Gareth> PhantomFox - Essentially I promised a certain experience and I intend to deliver. Despising them does not free me of my word-bond, doesn't justify a lack of quality and isn't an excuse to not do my job
<@Maven-> some of which overlap and some of which are unique
<@Maven-> not all jobs are available at once; you usually unlock them through quests or whatever
<@Maven-> and then qualify for the higher level ones by mastering X skills from one class and Y skills from another or something
<Domochevsky> Maven, I suppose that isn't too far off from what I'm already doing, except replace "race" with "party role" and "jobs" with "fields of interest"
<@Maven-> Each job provides a handful of skills that you can learn by leveling up in the job
<Lord_Gareth> Also hatred can be a fairly good motivator if one knows how to utilize it properly
<@Maven-> There are active combat abilities and passive combat abilities
<PhantomFox> Well, that can be dangerous sometimes...
<PhantomFox> Anyhow, I can understand honoring your word
<@Maven-> You can only use the active combat abilities of your current class and one other class of your choice (although you can switch whenever)
<Lord_Gareth> Dude, jesus
<Lord_Gareth> Waaaay too complicated
<@Maven-> fuck your face, it's considered one of the best games ever made
<Lord_Gareth> If we're ripping off of something we can start at Shadowrun Returns and move from there
<@Maven-> shut up
<@Maven-> anyway
<@Maven-> Passive abilities work differently: You basically have so many free passive ability slots (dependant on level)
<@Maven-> and you just mix and match whatever you've earned
<Lord_Gareth> -> Made by a massive studio that actually gets paid and got to use extremely professional equipment for its more-than-two-person teams
<Lord_Gareth> -> We're two guys and a truck
<@Maven-> It's a PS1 game
<Lord_Gareth> And yet
<@Maven-> people have made more complicated games than PS1 games in their sleep
<Lord_Gareth> We are still two guys and a truck
<@Maven-> shut up
<@Maven-> I don't care what you think
<@Maven-> I am talking to Domochevsky
<Lord_Gareth> And yet, I am involved in development
<Domochevsky> ...I'm not even sure I can drive that truck
<Lord_Gareth> So you'll have to put up with me whether you want to or not
<@Maven-> False
<@Maven-> !kick Lord_Gareth
* Lord_Gareth was kicked by ChanServ ((Maven-) Bye.)
-ChanServ- Kicked Lord_Gareth from #jediroom.
* Lord_Gareth (~chatzilla@c-68-36-138-189.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #jediroom
* Domochevsky sigh
<PhantomFox> Dude
<PhantomFox> Uncalled for
<Domochevsky> Not cool
<Lord_Gareth> Fro does that with more class.
<@Maven-> ...Anyway
<@Maven-> as I was saying
<@Maven-> Mechanically speaking it's simple. Each character has the abilities of their current class, a secondary class, their passive stuff, and the item menu.
<@Maven-> It's really just mix-and-match.
<@Maven-> And I think you do ultimately want some sort of gate on how many of a character's skills the player can use at one time
<Domochevsky> Hm... I'm not sure I actually do
<@Maven-> otherwise an enterprising individual might grind everything out and have access to every single skill in the game on every character.
<Domochevsky> Since that would mean that they'd also need the ability to switch them out dynamically
<@Maven-> Outside of combat, yes
<Domochevsky> And kinda get "settled" on an optimal set
<@Maven-> People are going to find an optimum strategy no matter what you do
<@Maven-> if they can use every skill at once, they will use precisely one - the one that lets them win the fastest
<@Maven-> That's precisely why the concept of classes exist
<@Maven-> so you can bottle synergistic skills into one particular package and have them compliment each other without stepping into another archetype's space
<Domochevsky> Hm... any given character's role restricts what FoI they'll have access to and how far they can get into each FoI
<@Maven-> FoI?
<Domochevsky> Field of Interest
<@Maven-> See, I'd consider that a mistake: Don't lock characters into particular roles
<Domochevsky> Their role is kinda informed by their personality, though
<@Maven-> Let the players create whatever weird combinations they want and let the mechanics dictate the seperation
<@Maven-> Why
<@Maven-> Why does a party need to have roles
<@Maven-> this is a video game
<@Maven-> think of replayability here
<Lord_Gareth> It's also an RPG
<@Maven-> some people are going to want to do White Mage only runs
<@Maven-> or Fighter only runs
<@Maven-> or whatever
<Domochevsky> A dungeon crawler on top of it
<Domochevsky> Hm, they MIGHT be able to do something like that, depending on character selection
<Lord_Gareth> Would Dragon Age have been the same game if the party members weren't who they are?
<@Maven-> This isn't Dragon Age
<Lord_Gareth> And?
<Lord_Gareth> It's not Tactics either
<PhantomFox> It's a genre thing
<Domochevsky> The leader at the very least has free choice of roles (well, that's a lie. They're the LEADER, but that has the least restrictions)
<@Maven-> No, it's not
<@Maven-> but it can be similar
<@Maven-> You don't have to tie the characters down to specific niches
<@Maven-> It's honestly less work to just let it be equal opportunity and let the players build a party they want to work with
<Lord_Gareth> Not really
<@Maven-> Yes, really
<Lord_Gareth> I can flesh out a lot more stuff if I can define the potential party members. Their abilities, their training, says things about them
<Lord_Gareth> The more open they are the more generic I have to make them
<@Maven-> No, you don't
<PhantomFox> Example?
<@Maven-> if /you/ have that limitation, that sounds like a personal problem
<Lord_Gareth> PhantomFox - Would Thomas be the same person if he wasn't a healer?
<PhantomFox> No, that was directed at Maven
<@Maven-> PhantomFox - Would Thomas be the same person if the readers decided to level him up with nothing but debuff skills from now on?
<PhantomFox> Who?
<@Maven-> The characters are growing through the course of the game. That's what leveling up and EXP means. Who they start as, the experience they have when they first come on screen, doesn't have to limit what they can become through the course of gameplay.
<PhantomFox> That's a great ideal, but not very practical
<Lord_Gareth> And yet it still says things about them. It suggests things about them as people and their advancement
<PhantomFox> Unless you're going for something Skyrim-esque
<Lord_Gareth> When you pick up Wynne and she's full of heals and debuffs, it makes her a very different person than Morrigan, who is full of kill and also ripshred
<Domochevsky> Thomas Aquinas. Character in Gaiden
<Domochevsky> The blue one
<PhantomFox> Ah, right
<@Maven-> Again, it's been done in plenty of games. And Video Gaiden plays more like those games than Dragon Age.
<@Maven-> Fuck, Fire Emblem has well defined characters and does the same thing.
<PhantomFox> Objection!  FE has predefined classes!
<@Maven-> Not all of them
<@Maven-> in Awakening, you can change anyone to whatever the fuck, basically
<@Maven-> yes, there are /some/ limitations
<Domochevsky> Didn't Fire Emblem also let you level up weapon skills individually by using them? Leading to you STILL using the shitty sword you have no rolls aroun
<Domochevsky> d
<@Maven-> That's not really relevant to the point
<Domochevsky> Hm, true enough
<PhantomFox> Hold on, got invited to the game
<@Maven-> As for the writing, if you really want to have class sensitive stuff, it's very simple.
<@Maven-> If Class Level <Mage> = >10: Conversation A
<@Maven-> shit like that
<@Maven-> dependant conditions are a thing
<PhantomFox> Wait, so what was your thesis again?
<@Maven-> My thesis?
<@Maven-> I don't have a thesis
<PhantomFox> What are you trying to prove again?
<@Maven-> I started out recommending the gameplay of Final Fantasy Tactics
<@Maven-> Gareth said it was too complicated and wouldn't work
<@Maven-> and I oppose that opinion
<Lord_Gareth> It's too complex for the team we've got on hand, yes
<Lord_Gareth> We have one coder, who is also our artist
<Lord_Gareth> Aaand a story guy
<Lord_Gareth> And that's fucking /it/
<@Maven-> Okay, firstly
<@Maven-> you have no idea how hard a game like that would be to code relative to whatever else Domo has in mind. He acknowledged that they're similar.
<@Maven-> Secondly, you have /two/ story people, as Domo apparently wants me to do the second storyline.
<@Maven-> so I am /just/ as involved
<@Maven-> And lastly, if you honestly can't figure out how to write a character who might happen to have different skillsets on different playthroughs of a game, I'm more than happy to take care of it.
<Lord_Gareth> You can quit with the sarcastic insinuations, you ass
<@Maven-> Pot. Kettle.
<Lord_Gareth> You've got a whole DLC to play in. If you want a more generalized skillset there, go nuts
<Lord_Gareth> 's not where I'm heading with mine
<@Maven-> I would think where you're heading with yours would be primarily dependant on how Domo chooses to make the game
<Lord_Gareth> The game we've been discussing on and off for months now and remain on the relatively same page about?
<Lord_Gareth> That one?
<Lord_Gareth> Do you /really/ think I'd be making plans without reliable data?
<@Maven-> Well
<@Maven-> Yes
<@Maven-> Based on recent experience
<Lord_Gareth> Yes, yes. Build a dozen bridges and you're not a master bridge builder but fuck just one sheep
<Lord_Gareth> Etc etc
<@Maven-> I'm fairly certain Domo /doesn't/ have a solid grasp on exactly how the game's mechanics are going to work given that the engine is still being built.
<Lord_Gareth> He's had solid enough ideas for me to be annoyed at some of them :p
<@Maven-> I'm simply thinking of the game's success here
<Lord_Gareth> Mmhm
<@Maven-> I am. Increased options and character customization - and any different dialogue or quests or whatever that result from that - mean increased replayability which means increased sales.
<Lord_Gareth> The leader is already make-your-own
<Lord_Gareth> Frankly being able to customize the rest of the party is not a requirement to get different dialogue or quests
<@Maven-> It's not a requirement, but it's one way to do it.
<Domochevsky> It's also up to you how you skill all of them (within their roles, which are already fairly broad, so I'm fairly positive that won't be too restricting there). Incidentally, people do can have multiple role (SUPPORT/TANK) at possibly reduced max capabilities, if things stay on a certain path. I'm not entirely sure yet.
Domochevsky> As for skills and such affecting dialogues... I'm not sure yet. Maybe. I suspect there might be a thin LEADER skill tree of sorts that includes conversation options, since only the leader actually diplomances
<@Maven-> Domochevsky, my advice to you would be to emulate FF Tactics (or either of the Tactics Advance games) and just see it for yourself. Maybe Etrian Odyssey too.
<Domochevsky> Couldn't stand Etrian Odyssey >_>
<@Maven-> That's fair. Just FFT then.
<Domochevsky> The whole "run around in 3D through the maze"... not into it
<@Maven-> Studying similar games can't hurt.
<@Maven-> And FFT is much more similar anyway