* On the morality of killing imps and of giving up.

20:48		silentAnswer pMs soulHooks: (You are a human correct?)
20:48		silentAnswer pMs soulHooks: (I think most of what is on chat right now are trolls)
20:54		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (hey, yeah!)
20:54		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (what can i do for you, silent? c: )
20:55		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (Since I just explained it twice I'm going to copy paste my explanation)
20:56		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (I have reason to suspect one of our sessions' prototypings MIGHT have created sapient imps)
20:57		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (one of my friends alchemized what was basically a tech demo for the world's most advanced artificial intelligence)
20:57		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (The imps that reflect it (and only those imps) are markedly more intelligent than they're supposed to be, but I can't be sure)
20:58		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (ha.)
20:58		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (did you think they weren't sapient already?)
20:58		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (The troll perspective seems to be "who cares, they're attacking you so they're the enemy". I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that and I KNOW my brother won't be)
20:59		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (... the game loves discomfort.)
20:59		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (Is this just because they have "souls"? Becase I was told that even rocks have those)
20:59		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (and imps were always sapient.)
21:00		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (and yeah, rocks do, and plants, and consorts, and definitely imps.)
21:00		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (but if they're smarter now...)
21:00		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (... this is like the difference between kicking the ass of something as smart as a little kid, and kicking the ass of something as smart as you.)
21:01		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (When you put it that way it sounds LESS amoral)
21:01		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (well.)
21:01		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (haven't you ever seen imps goofing off?)
21:01		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (playing on a swingset that came in with your dwelling spire?)
21:02		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (...)
21:02		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (checking themselves out in a mirror when they steal some of your clothes?)
21:02		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (they've always been like little violent children.)
21:02		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (if you haven't had a moral dilemma about it already, them being smarter shouldn't cause one.)
21:02		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (And yet you're the advocate of having personal fun, even at their expense)
21:03		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (because it's still a game.)
21:03		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (To us maybe)
21:03		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (and because i need to know what i can do with my powers if it comes to saving me or my coplayers.)
21:03		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (do you feel bad about grinding on bugs in an rpg?)
21:04		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (and yeah, to us.)
21:04		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (but i'm willing to be totally fucking selfish like that.)
21:04		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (i mean, what else am i supposed to do?)
21:05		silentAnswer PMs soulHooks: (I think we need a proper channel to our own. Let's take it to #moralquandry)
21:06		soulHooks PMs silentAnswer: (okay.)


21:53		silentAnswer began pestering soulHooks
21:06	silentAnswer	Are you here?
21:06	soulHooks	yeah.
21:06	silentAnswer	So. Selfishness and imps
21:07	soulHooks	yeah.
21:07	soulHooks	i'm willing to kill and abuse sapient creatures to ensure my own survival.
21:07	silentAnswer	I find it disturbing that you're the one person who's given me or, to my understanding, my brother a straight answer to that question
21:07	silentAnswer	The question of whether they're sapient
21:08	silentAnswer	But you embrace the behavior I would associate with a negative answer
21:08	soulHooks	well.
21:08	soulHooks	maybe i like having power over something.
21:09	soulHooks	i've said it a lot that i don't fuck with my sessionmates.
21:09	soulHooks	no one ever seems to buy it, but...
21:09	soulHooks	i've been playing video games for a long long long time
21:09	silentAnswer	I believe you about your coplayers
21:10	silentAnswer	But what makes them different?
21:10	silentAnswer	The fact that there's only a few of them?
21:10	soulHooks	i...
21:10	silentAnswer	As a time player I've got a different perspective on that bit
21:10	silentAnswer	Because I DO have to see them die anyways
21:10	silentAnswer	Arguably cause it
21:10	soulHooks	... i know the answer i could give you, but i'm not gonna, if you don't mind.
21:10	silentAnswer	And that's when using it in the approved method
21:12	silentAnswer	So is my brother right?
21:12	soulHooks	i dunno, what's your brother think?
21:12	silentAnswer	He thinks it's immoral to kill them at all
21:12	silentAnswer	even the normal ones
21:12	silentAnswer	The game doesn't make it that easy of course
21:13	silentAnswer	But he generally lets a lot more of them get away than the rest of us
21:13	soulHooks	it could be immoral. but it really has to depend on your version of moral.
21:13	silentAnswer	And I'm yet to hear of him using his Rage power for anything except scaring them off
21:14	soulHooks	is superman moral for never killing anyone, even if it means that supervillains will kill thousands more people in the future that could have been saved if he just put a laser through lex luthor's head?
21:14	silentAnswer	No
21:14	silentAnswer	But superman has the choice between killing one or letting many die
21:14	silentAnswer	Ours is reversed
21:15	soulHooks	yeah, but if enough ones die, so do the chances of a new universe.
21:15	soulHooks	it's hard shit.
21:15	soulHooks	and it hurts to think about.
21:16	soulHooks	and sometimes you have to think about it in a way that kids like us shouldn't have to think about shit like this.
21:16	silentAnswer	Does that new universe exist though?
21:16	silentAnswer	My corruption-induced rant from what seems like oh so long ago wasn't really right-minded
21:17	soulHooks	i...
21:17	silentAnswer	But I still can't ignore the question of whether there is a moral imperative to make that universe, or its just what the game wants
21:17	soulHooks	i hope the new universe exists.
21:17	silentAnswer	That's not what I meant
21:17	silentAnswer	I'm not doubting that when you make the frog you make a universe
21:17	silentAnswer	But what's so important about the universe you haven't made yet?
21:18	soulHooks	... my nan.
21:18	silentAnswer	???
21:18	soulHooks	my nan would have said that it's a war.
21:18	silentAnswer	That's the opinion I've heard so far
21:18	soulHooks	and that wars are brutal and violent and terrible, and you do terrible things in them.
21:18	silentAnswer	And that's ok?
21:18	silentAnswer	We're the stars of this narrative
21:19	soulHooks	and you have to sit the fuck down and deal with that shit, because you might get through and make things better.
21:19	silentAnswer	Don't we get to make some choices
21:19	soulHooks	"so close your back-talking yap and give me twenty pushups, dell."
21:19	soulHooks	you are making choices.
21:20	soulHooks	fuck does this game ever give you choices.
21:20	soulHooks	and you can choose a pacifist run.
21:20	silentAnswer	Does it work?
21:20	soulHooks	but you'll be a pacifist in a warzone, and most people aren't strong enough for that.
21:20	soulHooks	i dunno. i've heard of true pacifist runs before.
21:21	silentAnswer	I don't even think that's an option
21:21	soulHooks	but i've never seen one, even from a couple players who swore this time would be different.
21:21	silentAnswer	It hasn't been so far for my brother and he's the best equipped for it
21:22	soulHooks	well, i can't tell you what's moral.
21:22	soulHooks	and i can't tell you where the line between lawful good and lawful stupid is.
21:24	silentAnswer	I guess not
21:24	silentAnswer	If this were a moral question it'd already be answered
21:25	silentAnswer	The ethical cost of making our task harder falls almost entirely on me
21:25	silentAnswer	So if I am making the decision, the ethical one is to avoid taking lives
21:26	soulHooks	probably.
21:26	soulHooks	but ethical can be hard.
21:26	soulHooks	and depending on your class, it could make your everything fizzle because you're not doing it right.
21:26	soulHooks	like, just in general.
21:26	silentAnswer	Seer
21:27	soulHooks	the game is an ass like that.
21:27	soulHooks	seer of time.
21:27	silentAnswer	I think that means I am supposed to make this decision
21:27	silentAnswer	And the others
21:27	silentAnswer	Especially the Knight of Rage
21:27	silentAnswer	Are going to have to follow that decision
21:27	silentAnswer	Unless that's pride talking
21:28	soulHooks	can you ask them all to follow your lead?
21:28	silentAnswer	They have been so far
21:28	silentAnswer	Danny will. Sarah will
21:28	silentAnswer	The twins probably won't
21:28	silentAnswer	Timmy probably won't
21:28	silentAnswer	But Sarah's the one who'll be dealing with the smart imps the most
21:28	soulHooks	there's another battle you'll have to fight.
21:29	soulHooks	... but if the imps are that smart, you might be able to reason with them.
21:29	silentAnswer	Perhaps
21:29	silentAnswer	You missed this detail
21:29	silentAnswer	But they're more susceptible to fear effects than normal imps
21:29	silentAnswer	Which is worrying on an entirely new level
21:29	soulHooks	there you go, then.
21:29	silentAnswer	But is a point of leverage
21:29	soulHooks	they know to be afraid of you killing them.
21:30	silentAnswer	But that's the level on which it's disturbing
21:30	soulHooks	gosh, doesn't that just make you feel fuzzy inside? DX
21:30	silentAnswer	Because they don't have that choice unless Danny gives them the option
21:30	silentAnswer	And only he has that power
21:31	soulHooks	i think that you should talk it over with your teammates, silent.
21:32	soulHooks	i don't know them, and i dunno what they'll think is moral.
21:32	soulHooks	or what's a good idea.
21:32	soulHooks	but.
21:32	soulHooks	if you can manage a pacifist session, even starting late like this...
21:32	soulHooks	you're way stronger than i am.
21:32	silentAnswer	Thanks
21:32	silentAnswer	But
21:33	silentAnswer	I don't think it's that far out of your reach
21:33	silentAnswer	It shouldn't be out of anyone's reach
21:33	silentAnswer	It'll be harder
21:33	silentAnswer	Without a Rage aspect (I'm assuming)
21:33	soulHooks	hahaha, you don't know me like i know me. :b
21:33	silentAnswer	And with your coplayers taking the slaughter for granted
21:33	soulHooks	but thanks anyway.
21:34	silentAnswer	I suppose I can't hold it against you
21:34	soulHooks	it'd be nice if you're right.
21:34	silentAnswer	At least you don't dodge the issue
21:34	silentAnswer	You're the only person so far who's admitted it head-on
21:34	silentAnswer	And that's including the ones from a warrior culture
21:34	silentAnswer	Just keep it in mind I guess
21:35	soulHooks	hahaha.
21:35	silentAnswer	You don't have to do a pacifist session to let one group of imps go
21:35	soulHooks	i'm surprised that you had to ask, honestly.
21:35	silentAnswer	And from what I've seen, some of the other mobs AREN'T as smart as the imps
21:35	soulHooks	i thought it was pretty self-evident what the answer was.
21:35	silentAnswer	Maybe I was denying it too
21:36	soulHooks	... yeah, well.
21:36	soulHooks	... whatever makes it easier, i guess.
21:37	soulHooks	... also, hey.
21:37	soulHooks	you should go talk to your dreamself sometime.
21:37	soulHooks	like, pop on over to derse and hold her hand and have her tell you about all the shit she's afraid of.
21:38	silentAnswer	I think
21:38	silentAnswer	Several people have told me that's possible
21:38	silentAnswer	At different points in my timestream
21:38	silentAnswer	I've forgotten if I should be pretending I didn't know it yet
21:38	soulHooks	yeah, well, now you know it from me.
21:38	silentAnswer	But I haven't done it yet
21:39	soulHooks	... your dreamself is a really sweet girl.
21:39	soulHooks	and it's really awful to see her be scared.
21:39	soulHooks	i'd really appreciate it if you did it sometime soon? for me, at least?
21:40	silentAnswer	Scared?
21:40	silentAnswer	Oh
21:40	silentAnswer	She's figured it out hasn't she
21:40	silentAnswer	What'll happen at the end of the session
21:40	soulHooks	... yeah.
21:40	soulHooks	):
21:40	silentAnswer	I don't know what to tell her
21:41	silentAnswer	As far as I can tell it's true
21:41	silentAnswer	This isn't even like the issue with the imps, I think the game just set up this tragedy on accident
21:41	soulHooks	):
21:41	soulHooks	i...
21:41	silentAnswer	As the heart player
21:41	silentAnswer	You wouldn't know of any way around it would you?
21:42	silentAnswer	We have a guard of heart
21:42	silentAnswer	So if there is a Heart-related way to save her at all, he'll be able to do it
21:42	soulHooks	tiering would combine the two of you.
21:42	silentAnswer	Would that save her or kill one of us sooner?
21:42	soulHooks	i don't know.
21:42	silentAnswer	I don't either
21:43	soulHooks	you would have her memories. and her powers. but i don't know if that's the same as giving her life.
21:43	silentAnswer	Do people who tier normally act like they did when awake or when asleep?
21:43	soulHooks	and i really w wish i did know
21:44	soulHooks	both, a little
21:44	soulHooks	they're usually a little happier and ditzier
21:44	soulHooks	like a dreamself
21:44	soulHooks	but not full-blown dreamsilly
21:45	silentAnswer	Both at the same time?
21:45	soulHooks	yeah.
21:45	silentAnswer	Then that's the ansewr
21:45	silentAnswer	You've turned two people into one person
21:46	soulHooks	... but tiering never lasts past the end of a session.
21:46	soulHooks	and i don't know if she'll be the same in your next one.
21:46	silentAnswer	And you can't do that
21:46	silentAnswer	If two people become one person, that means at least one is gone
21:46	silentAnswer	Possibly both
21:46	soulHooks	yeah.
21:46	silentAnswer	I'm almost sure she won't be
21:47	silentAnswer	Whatever this is screams time shenanigans
21:47	soulHooks	... ):
21:47	soulHooks	yeah, it does
21:47	soulHooks	i really wish i was more help
21:47	silentAnswer	You've been plenty of help
21:47	soulHooks	but
21:47	soulHooks	... hah, thanks.
21:47	silentAnswer	You were honest so I could be honest
21:48	silentAnswer	What more could I ask for?
21:48	soulHooks	:3 well, it's the least i can do, right?
21:48	soulHooks	and
21:48	soulHooks	if you do go to see her
21:48	soulHooks	give her a hug and tell her it's from mister creepy
21:48	soulHooks	:3
21:48	silentAnswer	Ok
21:48	silentAnswer	Don't worry, she WILL warm up to you
21:48	silentAnswer	I've seen it
21:48	soulHooks	so have i.
21:49	soulHooks	(:
21:49	silentAnswer	I was trying to make a pun there
21:49	silentAnswer	But ok
21:49	soulHooks	hehehe, sorry.
21:49	silentAnswer	Anyways, I'll talk to her
21:49	silentAnswer	And as for you
21:49	silentAnswer	Don't forget
21:49	silentAnswer	This is a game of choices
21:49	soulHooks	yeah, it is
21:49	silentAnswer	And choices can be choices of degree
21:50	silentAnswer	If the absolute is too much
21:50	soulHooks	yeah, i got you
21:50	soulHooks	so
21:50	soulHooks	yeah
21:50	soulHooks	i've got a thing i've got to go do
21:51	soulHooks	but good luck
21:51	soulHooks	okay?
21:51		soulHooks hugs silent so she can pass it along to her dreamself!
21:52		silentAnswer hugs back, but from herself
21:52	silentAnswer	So now I've got to go talk to everyone in the session
21:52	silentAnswer	Including myself
21:52	soulHooks	hehehe
21:52	soulHooks	have fun with that!
21:52	silentAnswer	I'll try
21:53	soulHooks	right, see you around. :3
21:53		silentAnswer has ceased pestering soulHooks