04:12:02 <asie> CanVox: thanks, btw
04:12:07 <•CanVox> ?
04:12:36 <asie> for reaching out
04:12:38 <asie> i appreciate it.
04:13:36 <•CanVox> idk dude I was just laughing at the idea that moderators know or care about what's going on in the minecraft thread or that anyone's trying to maintain opsec or whatever the fuck for SA posts
04:13:48 <asie> CanVox: that is how i felt as an outsider
04:14:08 <asie> seeing as every single SA screencap i got was in the 4chan minecraft thread
04:14:14 <asie> i guess i was a bit biased
04:14:23 <•CanVox> XD
04:17:23 <asie> it was an outlining of my thoughts at the time...
04:17:37 <asie> i still feel RF has a severe issue with modpack devs not touching any RF power usage values
04:17:53 <asie> RF has no real baseline
04:18:09 <asie> TE is the closest thing, but then you have mods below it and mods way above it
04:19:40 <asie> also, a severe issue with the "forbidden fruit"
04:19:42 <•CanVox> idk when packs there'd even be a good case for doing it in
04:19:47 <asie> who uses the harder way in a modpack?
04:19:58 <•CanVox> You do.  All the time.
04:20:04 <•CanVox> I know I sure do.
04:20:12 <asie> most people don't
04:20:16 <•CanVox> Many of the people arguing in favor of non-decaying passives do.
04:20:24 <•CanVox> Most people who use AE do.
04:20:32 <asie> AE is the easier way
04:20:35 <•CanVox> Is it?
04:20:39 <asie> same with non-decaying passives
04:20:41 <asie> yes, it is
04:20:41 <•CanVox> Nope
04:20:42 <•CanVox> Not true
04:21:00 <asie> Ender IO conduits are easier too
04:21:02 <•CanVox> Non-decaying passives require far, far more resources to produce the same amount of mana from an endoflame for instance
04:21:09 <asie> because much less routing skill is required
04:21:15 <•CanVox> Ender IO is the easiest way and it's not the most commonly used
04:21:18 <•CanVox> Hasn't been for a while
04:21:44 <asie> ehhh
04:21:44 <•CanVox> I mean look at tekkit classic
04:21:49 <asie> the more i talk i feel i live in a bubble
04:21:51 <•CanVox> Anyone using compact solars
04:21:54 <asie> the more i feel*
04:21:57 <•CanVox> Not going with the easiest way
04:22:01 <•CanVox> The easiest way was railcraft boilers
04:22:16 <•CanVox> There's certainly always The Most Popular Way
04:22:21 <•CanVox> And there's a certain sort of logic to why it's used
04:22:33 <•CanVox> But you need to recognize how that logic is developed, why people choose what they choose
04:22:36 <•CanVox> That's where game design comes from
04:22:47 <•CanVox> Look at thaumcraft: not usually the easiest way
04:22:49 <asie> i am not a game designer, i never were one
04:23:00 <•CanVox> You have been doing game design for a little while now
04:23:02 <asie> but i am the only one who cares about bc enough to maintain it
04:23:08 <•CanVox> You can't just shrug off your responsibility to produce good work
04:23:20 <asie> CanVox: i have not added any non-iterative thing to BC for the past year
04:23:27 <•CanVox> Until gendustry, forestry bees weren't the easiest way to do anything and I'd argue that they're not particularly easy now for a lot of things
04:23:30 <•CanVox> Why do people use forestry bees?
04:23:31 <asie> except packagers but those were rippes off
04:23:35 <asie> people use them?
04:23:40 <•CanVox> A lot of game designers only do iterative work
04:23:42 <asie> i have only once seen anyone use them
04:23:45 <asie> on dozens of servers
04:23:48 <•CanVox> Think of how many people work on yearly titles
04:23:58 <•CanVox> They were used constantly back in 1.2
04:24:06 <•CanVox> They fell out of fashion because forestry fell out of fashion
04:24:28 <asie> i guess you're right
04:24:33 <•CanVox> Look my point is
04:24:41 <•CanVox> Most people choose stuff that's not the easiest stuff
04:24:47 <•CanVox> They choose stuff that they think is the most fun stuff
04:24:55 <•CanVox> And that doesn't mean it is becaus epeople fixate on weird things
04:25:04 <•CanVox> But they generally try to pursue what looks enjoyable
04:25:14 <asie> BuildCraft 8 will be my first serious voyage into a redesign
04:25:14 <•CanVox> If you're saying
04:25:17 <asie> it stresses me out
04:25:20 <asie> a lot.
04:25:42 <asie> i get very emotionally invested into just about anything i do
04:25:45 <•CanVox> "oh people choose to do 1 hour of mining and 50 crafting combines instead of 2 hours of mining and 100 crafting combines POWER CREEP"
04:25:56 <asie> CanVox: nah
04:26:02 <asie> crafting was never a good balance measure
04:26:11 <•CanVox> As far as I can tell it's the main balance measure
04:26:12 <•CanVox> Like
04:26:18 <asie> it is the main one
04:26:20 <asie> but it does not work
04:26:35 <asie> BC has some of the easiest craftings AFAIK
04:26:43 <asie> it is also fundamentally unfit for a microcrafting world
04:26:47 <asie> AE is better there
04:27:17 <•CanVox> People choose AE for one reason
04:27:30 <•CanVox> Building more chests and finding new places to put them isn't fun
04:27:41 <asie> yes it is, sorting is a massive part of the game
04:27:45 <•CanVox> That's not sorting
04:27:51 <•CanVox> There's nothing wrong with sorting
04:27:58 <asie> iron chests?
04:28:05 <asie> barrels?
04:28:11 <asie> betterstorage's crates?
04:28:21 <•CanVox> ok A better storage is awful
04:28:26 <•CanVox> like the worst
04:28:37 <asie> i like the backpacks a lot
04:28:41 <asie> the crates and boxes are great
04:28:52 <asie> the locking system beats LWC in gameplayability by far
04:28:58 <asie> the chests are a bit small for the price though
04:29:01 <asie> and by a bit i mean a lot
04:29:04 <•CanVox> uhhh
04:29:07 <•CanVox> that' snot the problem
04:29:26 <•CanVox> the fucked up UI where NEI doesn't work & sometimes things explode because holiday events is the problem
04:29:40 <asie> well bs is abandoned and mit now
04:30:21 <•CanVox> How do you even manage to make a GUI where NEI doesn't work
04:30:25 <•CanVox> that stretches the imagination
04:30:31 <asie> what do you mean by that?
04:30:39 <asie> i never had an issue
04:30:41 <•CanVox> I mean like the NEI gui will not appear in BS chests
04:30:42 <•CanVox> when they're open
04:30:44 <asie> what!?
04:30:47 <asie> i uh
04:30:51 <asie> never noticed that?
04:31:00 <•CanVox> here lemme pull up blightfall
04:31:05 <•CanVox> I'll ss it for you
04:31:07 <flappy> CanVox: AE is totes the easiest way though
04:31:09 <asie> (though i think crafting table ii is a far better solution of the recipe problem)
04:31:15 <flappy> ^^^^^^
04:31:30 <asie> (NEI is not immersive, it's a more intelligent wiki)
04:31:34 <•CanVox> forget the recipe problem, what about filtering for a particular thing I'm lookign for?
04:31:52 <asie> add a searchbar to crafting table ii, or a dictionary of all items
04:32:09 <asie> BC might need such a dictionary soon
04:32:13 <asie> for delivery robot control
04:32:18 <•CanVox> Anyway, in terms of mining & crafting time, AE is not easier than bc at all
04:32:26 <asie> that is a one-time cost
04:32:50 <•CanVox> I'm ont even talking about the quarry I just mean in terms of your ability to lay down enough pipe & autocrafting crap, logipipes is much easier to set up than AE2
04:32:51 <flappy> CanVox: it's way easier to use is what I mean
04:33:10 <•CanVox> So would you say that the problem is not power creep, it's UX creep?
04:33:12 <•CanVox> lol
04:33:15 <flappy> you lay down the wire, set the parts up and that's it
04:33:17 <asie> UX is power
04:33:22 <•CanVox> Same with buildcraft
04:33:33 <•CanVox> Heck buildcraft networks don't even need a reactor or whatever to run them
04:33:46 <asie> neither does AE
04:33:48 <•CanVox> Yes it does
04:33:52 <asie> nah
04:33:55 <•CanVox> It actually requires quite a bit of power
04:34:05 <asie> i ran two servers with AE and no rea tors
04:34:12 <•CanVox> how's that even work?
04:34:21 <asie> combustion engines + lever
04:34:32 <•CanVox> I believe combustion engines do actually provide power
04:34:37 <asie> yes
04:35:02 <•CanVox> sooooo?
04:35:35 <asie> people just use those?
04:35:44 <asie> they provide plenty of powrr
04:35:44 <•CanVox> So, AE does require power
04:35:46 <•CanVox> yes
04:35:48 <•CanVox> oh lol
04:36:06 <asie> 60 RF/t times five is plenty, hit an oil well and you win
04:36:18 <•CanVox> ok you are right, AE networks don't require actual literal reactors
04:36:21 <•CanVox> I meant that they take power to run
04:36:28 <•CanVox> Which buildcraft networks do not
04:36:51 <•CanVox> My point is this:
04:36:57 <•CanVox> A mod needs exactly one thing
04:36:59 <•CanVox> Fun things for you to do.
04:37:19 <•CanVox> In AE, the fun thing you do is set up complicated automation networks.
04:37:40 <•CanVox> In buildcraft, the fun thing you do is set up complicated automation networks, but only after you figure out where your next hallway full of chests is going to fit.
04:37:45 <•CanVox> Nobody likes chest hallways.
04:37:58 <asie> i love them
04:38:09 <asie> barrel hallways are cooler tho
04:38:15 <•CanVox> People talk about POWER CREEP like it's players demanding a pony, but it's actually players wanting to do the actual fun part that they signed up to do in the first place.
04:38:45 <•CanVox> The whole WELL WHY NOT JUST TURN ON CREATIVE MODE shit has got to stop because it is possible to make mods that have fun thing to do that dont' include eating all the free candy you just got or whatever
04:39:13 <•CanVox> People complain about thaumcraft having too much dumb bullshit in it constantly but everyone still plays it because the mod is like 40% fun shit to do by volume which isn't great in absolute terms but kicks the shit out of most minecraft mods
04:39:49 <asie> well i have no ideas for fun shit to do
04:40:08 <•CanVox> Then go play some minecraft.
04:40:33 <asie> didn't help for the last 5 years
04:40:52 <asie> been here since july 2009
04:41:09 <•CanVox> And you've been modding nonstop since what, '11?
04:41:16 <asie> not nonstop
04:41:26 <asie> briefly in '10, '11
04:41:32 <asie> and since late 2013 mostly nonstop
04:41:54 <•CanVox> So for the past two years you haven't played minecraft.
04:42:02 <asie> i have a few times
04:42:13 <asie> when i was deving my pack for instance
04:42:24 <asie> spent a month playing it, decided it's not fun and canned the whole thing
04:42:32 <asie> escept everyone else was telling me it was fun to them
04:42:46 <•CanVox> Why were they having fun
04:43:07 <asie> no idea. there was nothing to do but automate some railcraft and forestry stuff
04:43:09 <•CanVox> What were they spending their time doing.
04:43:17 <asie> building contraptions?
04:43:20 <asie> there wasn't much else to do
04:43:27 <•CanVox> That's the main thing to do.
04:43:36 <asie> yes, but you need to have reasons to build them
04:43:59 <•CanVox> It's minecraft, unless there's HQM installed, objectives are mainly self-directed.
04:44:09 <asie> yeah. i guess there's that
04:44:20 <•CanVox> This is what I'm saying
04:44:25 <•CanVox> There doesn't have to be Stuff To Get
04:44:37 <•CanVox> There has to be Stuff To DO
04:45:04 <•CanVox> And giving someone cool stuff to do while removing bullshit isn't power creep, it's refinement
04:45:15 <asie> bullshit is subjective
04:45:39 <asie> eventually you get rid of so much bullshit there's nothing left
04:46:19 <•CanVox> I think that's a really silly slippery slope.
04:47:18 <•CanVox> I guess if you want to think about tech minecraft as a game about solving logistics problems, I don't really see storage as a logistics problem.
04:47:41 <•CanVox> I build the largest chests I can with my current resources, throw them down in a hallway, run wires.
04:47:49 <•CanVox> I'm not solving problems, I'm doing chores.
04:48:10 <•CanVox> "How do I produce infinite renewable sano" is a problem that I want to solve
04:48:32 <flappy> imo, logistics is the single thing there is that's not trivial in modded mc
04:48:50 <•CanVox> If you made storage a logistics problem, even if it didn't hit AE2's MAGICAL ALL YOUR STUFF IN THIS ONE BLOCK thing, people would play it
04:49:30 <flappy> just out of curiosity, how isn't it a logistics thing
04:49:57 <•CanVox> pull stuff out of chests, do a dozen crafting combines, mine out a 3x3x12 area, place blocks isn't a logistics thing
04:50:41 <flappy> #2 is what i think got ae its rise to fame
04:50:54 <•CanVox> It's like integrated redstone: nobody ever questions whether integrated redstone should be a thing
04:51:07 <•CanVox> even though if chest placing is a logistics problem, redstone placing is CERTAINLY one
04:51:29 <•CanVox> AE2 is popular for the same reason integrated redstone is
04:51:35 <•CanVox> it's just AE2 is the only solution for its problem
04:51:56 <flappy> chests in itself aren't a logistics problem, yeah
04:52:07 <flappy> it's the autosorting stuff into them
04:52:07 <•CanVox> Integrated redstone took a pointless mining/placing chore and turned it into a fun mind puzzle thing
04:52:11 <•CanVox> Yeah exactly
04:52:33 <•CanVox> AE2 did the same thing with storage, but it sort of collapsed the sorting problem by just throwing everything into the same spot
04:52:36 <flappy> which is a thing ae(2) effectively removes
04:52:42 <•CanVox> yeah zactly
04:52:47 <•CanVox> So that's why I'm like
04:52:57 <•CanVox> If you had another solution, even if it was harder to use than AE
04:53:03 <•CanVox> as long as people are thinkingw hile they're using it, they're happy
04:53:10 <•CanVox> If they're breaking blocks then they're not
04:53:51 <•CanVox> That's basically the secret to good minecraft mods: if people are creatively building, or problem solving, or (to a certain extent) hunting for things, then they'll be happy
04:53:59 <•CanVox> If they're doing anything else it's a dumb chore
04:54:17 <•CanVox> I guess combat & adventure fits in there somewher
04:54:34 <•CanVox> But you know, feeling smart, feeling creative, feeling afraid, or tense, or whatever.  Just feel SOMETHING
04:54:48 <flappy> tbh i want CT3 or a replacement back
04:54:57 <•CanVox> If I'm feeling nothing, i'm gonna be looking for a mod that boils down the experience
04:54:58 <flappy> it was great in tekkit
04:55:02 <•CanVox> CT3?
04:55:10 <flappy> Crafting Table 3
04:55:14 <•CanVox> Oh uhhh yeah
04:55:23 <•CanVox> Logipipes has one I THINK
04:55:29 <flappy> I think that was even a Zeldo mod lol
04:56:08 <•CanVox> yeah makes sense
04:56:12 <flappy> CanVox: Logipipes has something like the ae crafting terminal iirc
04:56:20 <•CanVox> They've had that for ages though
04:56:23 <•CanVox> a request pipe or something
04:56:45 <•CanVox> I just know they made their own crafting table because CJ nerfed the crap out of the BC one and they felt like it kind of killed the utility of a lot of LP stuff
04:56:47 <flappy> but CT3 just listed the stuff you had on you and then just let you instacraft the stuff
04:56:52 <•CanVox> ohhh!
04:56:58 <•CanVox> I was thinking it was an autocrafter
04:57:02 <flappy> nawww
04:57:35 <flappy> it was the thing that let you craft quarries and such out of raw materials in 1 click
04:58:19 <flappy> which is a way superior approach to crafting than ae
04:58:21 <flappy> imo
04:59:10 <flappy> matryoshka crafting is the worst invention in modern modded mc
05:04:17 <•CanVox> haha
05:04:20 <•CanVox> I agree with that
05:04:34 <•CanVox> I was playing a pre-cu SWG emu server a few months ago
05:04:48 <•CanVox> And I was kind of astonished that the crafting system which is remembered for being really deep and stuff
05:04:51 <•CanVox> had no intermediate components
05:05:08 <•CanVox> The depth came entirely from resource stats & scarcity
05:05:32 <•CanVox> After playing minecraft it kinda blew my mind
05:06:00 <•CanVox> I mean even EQ2 had intermediate crafting insanity as its main deal
05:14:38 <•CanVox> You know what the perfect example is
05:14:53 <•CanVox> ReactorCraft, even though it pains me to compliment a reika mod lol
05:15:19 <•CanVox> The fact that ReactorCraft exists and is frequently used in a world with Big Reactors kind of proves everything I'm saying
05:15:51 <•CanVox> Because ReactorCraft is an intractible intellectual knot but it inarguably gives you some problems to solve
05:15:57 <•CanVox> big reactors wants to do that but fails entirely
05:16:28 <•CanVox> It's not that hard to set up but it's like 70% chore by volume so people use reactorcraft
05:16:52 <flappy> on reika mods
05:17:21 <flappy> a friend put his magic mod thing on his server a few months back
05:17:23 <•CanVox> The only people who use big reactors are people like me who don't find the idea of being a virtual reactor tech super exciting and/or hate reika mods
05:17:32 <flappy> holy shit that thing is opaque
05:17:32 <•CanVox> did it blow all the stuff up
05:17:35 <•CanVox> oh yeah
05:17:37 <flappy> no
05:17:43 <•CanVox> Like reika is uhhh
05:17:56 <•CanVox> I mean reactorcraft is the same way it's just really well documented at this point
05:17:58 <flappy> there just was no indication on what you do to progress at all
05:18:10 <•CanVox> Not by reika, mind you
05:18:13 <•CanVox> But by the community
05:18:24 <flappy> rotarycraft OTOH has physics geek tier docs ingame
05:18:28 <flappy> or had
05:18:29 <•CanVox> oh sorry rotarycraft
05:18:40 <•CanVox> Oh did it?  I didn't realize
05:18:43 <flappy> back in 1.6 when another friend had it on a server
05:18:59 <flappy> now there's 17½ thousand gotchas
05:19:06 <flappy> because ~balance~
05:19:28 <flappy> but back to the magic mod
05:19:36 <flappy> the best part?
05:19:56 <flappy> i tried asking on his channel on esper
05:20:12 <flappy> "find out for yourself :)))))"
05:20:24 <•CanVox> haha goddamn
05:20:42 <flappy> the only way that told me "yeah go look for dungeon chests"
05:20:55 <flappy> was reading several pages of his MCF post
05:21:01 <flappy> like
05:21:08 <flappy> jesus
05:21:43 <flappy> i wonder how long that thing is now
05:22:23 <flappy> 1209 pages
05:23:38 <•CanVox> yeah like I can't take the frustration of dealing with him
05:24:01 <•CanVox> I know he told talonos that like running around and manually breaking crystals to make them harder to find was like
05:24:06 <•CanVox> some kind of permissions violation
05:24:18 <•CanVox> You can't just run the unedited executable with no external forces acting on it
05:24:25 <•CanVox> but you personally are not permitted to change the game experience
05:24:58 ↔ jandal nipped out
05:26:09 <flappy> checked the gregthread to compare
05:26:12 <flappy> 2464 pages
05:26:40 <flappy> from july 26 2012 onwards
05:38:25 <asie> i talked to reika on teamspeak once
05:38:33 <asie> one of the most friendly design discussions i had