The Natural world.

* Q sets modes [#theborderhouse +o SerCorbieGeisha]
<Boilerplate> Hi SerCorbieGeisha
<Boilerplate> Well today I was searching through Bloody Disgusting and I stumbled across this: http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3270092/interview-mike-costa-talks-creating-gods-destroying-worlds-and-the-death-of-science-in-god-is-dead/
<SerCorbieGeisha> And it's about?
<Boilerplate> well read the article and find out...
<Boilerplate> Although the link title is pretty much self-explainatory where the tone it's leading to though
<SerCorbieGeisha> It amuses me how Western authors have difficulty can't fathom something where magic and science aren't at odds
<Boilerplate> I guess this same problem can be found in the WoD as well especially Mage: The Acension with the whole Traditions (Magic) vs Technocracy (Science) going on especially with the whole "Romanaticism vs Enlightenment" dichomatomy: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RomanticismVersusEnlightenment
<SerCorbieGeisha> ArcanumL Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
<Boilerplate> Those are actual titles?
<Boilerplate> It is
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yes
<Boilerplate> So why did you referance it? It's a example of doing magic and science correctly perhaps?
<SerCorbieGeisha> No
<SerCorbieGeisha> Magic and science literally cannot exist together in that game
<Boilerplate> Ah so it's another example you gave along with Mage: The Acensison and such
<Boilerplate> Hmmm...there must be something about Western Writers who can't fanthom that Magic and Science are at odds....hmmm I wonder where this mentality comes from.
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* Now talking on #theborderhouse
-Q- [#thepostmortem] Welcome to the IRC channel of The Postmortem, the definitive Blood site.
<BoN> Sorry I was disconnected
<BoN> Of course though, it seems there is this idea that Magic and Science are "seperate paradigms" that "conflict with each other"
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<SerCorbieGeisha> Well, yes
<BoN> I guess this also has to do with the mentality that "It's either your religious or scientific atheist you choose one or the other"
<BoN> So how do you things right from here? Well rather how can Magic and Science cohexist and what has western authors missed the point on?
<SerCorbieGeisha> I believe i talked about this before
<BoN> Well I don't think I remember what you said actually
<BoN> and I didn't save the logs back then like I should have at the time
<BoN> Well back then I didn't know how at the time and unfortunetly they're long gone
<BoN> Since HexChat or XChat seems to overide the scrollback history or something
<BoN> So you can you tell me again perhaps? Of course this time I'll save it so you don't have to again.
<BoN> However I do remember some stuff like I remember you saying that can be religious and scienfintic at the same time though but other than that's what all I can remember honestly
<BoN> SerCorbieGeisha are you still here?
<SerCorbieGeisha> I took a shit
<BoN> oh
<BoN> probably on the authors from the article I guess
<SerCorbieGeisha> No
<SerCorbieGeisha> A real shit
<SerCorbieGeisha> Out the anus
<BoN> I was joking actually
<SerCorbieGeisha> I know
<SerCorbieGeisha> Actually
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't know!
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't know if I know or not
<SerCorbieGeisha> I am confusing myself
<BoN> Hmmm...I thought you knew
<BoN> or jokes on you I guess
<BoN> or me rather
<SerCorbieGeisha> I dont' know
<SerCorbieGeisha> I am confusing myself
<BoN> Anyway I'm still struggling to remember what you told me before though, can you help refreash it?
<BoN> However though, if you look at the mystical/religious based comsologies like for example the "World Tree", "World Turtle" or simple "realms" and also magic itself, perhaps it first appears to be reasonable that magic and science are two seperate things since I don't think science allows you to shoot fireballs/lightening bolts and summoing spirits and reaiminting corpses (necromancy) which is perhaps
<BoN> their 'point' I guess
<SerCorbieGeisha> But to people back then,magic is a science
<SerCorbieGeisha> Take Daoism
<SerCorbieGeisha> Many of the ideas now are disproven
<SerCorbieGeisha> But back then
<SerCorbieGeisha> Daoist elemental theory influenced a lot of science
<SerCorbieGeisha> Some schools were more mystical than others
<SerCorbieGeisha> But some schools are more scientific minded
<SerCorbieGeisha> Modern Daoism has tried to update itself
<SerCorbieGeisha> Taking into account nuclear energy and electromagnetism
<BoN> So maybe Mage: The Acension did get things right perhaps? Also the reason why they are 'disproven' is because they are no longer accepted by the consensus and the Technocracy enforces them. I think that's where the whole idea comes from.
<BoN> Also consensus reality is actually a real concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality
<SerCorbieGeisha> Also, Saraswati is a goddess of learning and the significance of her carrying the vina is that it's considered the most advanced musical instrument
<SerCorbieGeisha> I know it's a real concept
<SerCorbieGeisha> A lot of scientists are also religious
<SerCorbieGeisha> Remember the Golden Age of Islam?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Lots of scientific discoveries
<SerCorbieGeisha> You even had scientists inventing musical robots for the heck of it
<BoN> Well I heard that Jewish Rabbi in Prague created a Golem in Prague to protect the Jewish people or something and it is said that Golem till this day is in some Synagagode in Prague...Of course Golems and Robots are different constructs perhaps?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Robot is a modern word
<SerCorbieGeisha> Originally appeared in a Polish play about synthetic people used in labour
<SerCorbieGeisha> THe word originally meant "slave"
<SerCorbieGeisha> And basically
<SerCorbieGeisha> Science refers to understanding of nature
<SerCorbieGeisha> If magic is a part of your world
<SerCorbieGeisha> It would therefore be a natural phenomenon
<SerCorbieGeisha> If demons exists in your world, why would you not think of it as a part of nature but you think of cats as such
<SerCorbieGeisha> The idea of nature is that it is reality
<SerCorbieGeisha> As in
<SerCorbieGeisha> Um
<SerCorbieGeisha> Spontaneous reality?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Shit
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't know how to explain it clearly
<SerCorbieGeisha> But basically
<SerCorbieGeisha> Nature is what happens because this is how the world works
<SerCorbieGeisha> That's why dying from old age and sickness is considered natural deaths
<SerCorbieGeisha> And murder is unnatural because it is an emotionally motivated thing
<SerCorbieGeisha> It is real, but it doesn't exactly exist within an order
<SerCorbieGeisha> Whereas if we're primitive humans
<SerCorbieGeisha> And a human kills another
<SerCorbieGeisha> Actually
<SerCorbieGeisha> Forget that
<SerCorbieGeisha> Let's keep it modern
<SerCorbieGeisha> Say, killing someone in self defense
<SerCorbieGeisha> That's natural, because it's only natural for things to react defensively
<SerCorbieGeisha> And let's say the killer is killing for resources
<SerCorbieGeisha> Well,
<SerCorbieGeisha> There's debate about that
<SerCorbieGeisha> There are some theoreis which suggests that humans are not instinctively warlike
<BoN> Well rather wars come from material conditions...well maybe the marxists like Loyalthird and tethra here can explain that perhaps.
<SerCorbieGeisha> And sodomy. You know how it often gets called unnatarual? Because it is seen as a violation of existence
<SerCorbieGeisha> I know how war occurs
<SerCorbieGeisha> So the whole point of my unclear block of text is that
<SerCorbieGeisha> There really is no reason to see magic as unnatural if it coheres accordingly with the cosmic order of things
<SerCorbieGeisha> But if said magic behaves in a way which is outside of the order
<SerCorbieGeisha> Then it would be "unnatural"
<SerCorbieGeisha> For example
<SerCorbieGeisha> Let's say when people die, they all go to Deadland
<SerCorbieGeisha> But someone dies
<SerCorbieGeisha> And they don't go to Deadland. They just come back to lfie and become pro wrestlers
<SerCorbieGeisha> That's unnatural
<BoN> Like the Undertaker...
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, I was making an Undertaker reference
<SerCorbieGeisha> On the flipside
<SerCorbieGeisha> If the way of the world is that dead people usualyl come back to life depending on certain circumstances
<SerCorbieGeisha> That wouldn't be seen as unnatural
<SerCorbieGeisha> Although my personal view is that there's no such thing as unnaturalness
<SerCorbieGeisha> Because technology refers tot he application of natural principles
<SerCorbieGeisha> Nuclear power plants weren't built out of thin air. It evolved from studying the world around us
<SerCorbieGeisha> And then applying that knowledge to our use
<SerCorbieGeisha> So I wouldn't consider the Undertaker unnatural. His ability to return from the dead would be a technology
<SerCorbieGeisha> He is applying his knowledge of the natural principle of thanatosian movement
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yes, I made that up
<BoN> Oh wait about the Golem BTW...http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NewerThanTheyThink  "Although the Golem has been an element of Jewish folklore for multiple centuries, one of the most famous elements of the story, that of the Golem rescuing Jews from a blood libel in 16th century Prague, was more or less created in a 1909 novel by a Rabbi Yudl Rosenberg. Rosenberg basically did a Literary Age
<BoN> nt Hypothesis in which he claimed he was editing a much older work found in a (nonexistent) library and skillfully mixed in actual sources/traditions with elements of his own invention. While the novel is little known today, it was really influential and pretty much all subsequent tellings of the Golem legend contain facets original to Rosenberg."
<BoN> sorry about that block of text there
<BoN> So basically magic would be natural...of course what about the term "Supernatural" then?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Look up the etymology
<SerCorbieGeisha> Because
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't really know the etymology
<SerCorbieGeisha> Also
<SerCorbieGeisha> Even so
<SerCorbieGeisha> The word might not translate to the same idea in other languages
<SerCorbieGeisha> If you want, you can see it the same way as the word "superhuman"
<BoN> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural   "he supernatural (Medieval Latin: supernātūrālis: supra "above" + naturalis "nature", first used: 1520–30 AD)[1][2] is that which is not subject to the laws of physics, or more figuratively, that which is said to exist above and beyond nature. In philosophy, popular culture and fiction, the supernatural is associated with the paranormal, religions and
<BoN> occultism. It has neoplatonic[citation needed] and medieval scholastic origins."
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's human, but beyond
<SerCorbieGeisha> Not every culture might see supernatural things as beyond nature
<SerCorbieGeisha> Not everyone might define physics as the laws of nature
<SerCorbieGeisha> Well
<SerCorbieGeisha> The sole law of nature
<SerCorbieGeisha> There's chemistry
<SerCorbieGeisha> Biology
<SerCorbieGeisha> Psychology
<SerCorbieGeisha> Mathematics
<SerCorbieGeisha> Studies of different aspects of nature
<SerCorbieGeisha> But biology has a lot of relation with chemistry
<SerCorbieGeisha> Chemistry with physics
<SerCorbieGeisha> Psychology can help in understanding certain biological functions
<SerCorbieGeisha> Where the line is drawn between an area depends
<SerCorbieGeisha> if you want to define nature as things which can be explained with physics
<SerCorbieGeisha> Then ghosts would be above nature
<SerCorbieGeisha> Or outside of nature
<SerCorbieGeisha> But let's say
<SerCorbieGeisha> We manage to prove that there are a previously undiscovered law of physic which allows for the existence of ghosts
<SerCorbieGeisha> THen what?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Basically, there is no right answer
<BoN> Of course if you catched the last thing "It has neoplatonic and medieval scholastic origins." so the term "Supernatural" is entirely a western concept perhaps?
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's all about how you want to think of things
<SerCorbieGeisha> And that's why I find it amusing that Westner authors always only have the one idea
<SerCorbieGeisha> Mayb,e maybe not
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't know everything
<SerCorbieGeisha> I'm not a god
<BoN> I think western authors are stuck within their own neoplatonic/scholastic mindsets perhaps?
<BoN> Since they're simply products of their societies superstructure
<BoN> Hmmm....well I remember once linking to that Shadownessance thread that someone said about the "difference" between 'western and eastern philosphy' is that western philospher tend to treat the "Supernatural" as seperate from nature (which they linked it to Individualism) while Easterners treat it as part of nature (which they linked it to Collectivism) while trying to explain why "Kuie Jinn are more
<BoN> Powerful than Kindred"
<BoN> Of course though I also remember you telling me something about that the "Eastern Supernaturals are more Powerful than Western Supernaturals" is entirely bullshit which is rooted in orientalist thought but I don't exactly remember the details though.
<BoN> With the whole "Asia is mysterious" thing
<BoN> Of course though probably thinking about it that if "Eastern Supernaturals of Asia" are a part of nature while the "Western Supernaturals" are not I guess it get's to show how adsurd the idea really is?
<BoN> Also another thing I remember that "Eastern Supernaturals seek harmony and transcedance" while "Western Supernatrual are Woe is me and seek redemption from God" which is another thing I remember them saying
<BoN> So....
<QueenOf> so you think you're untouchable
<QueenOf> word life
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<QueenOf> this is ba basic thugamoics
<QueenOf> word life
<QueenOf> i'm untouchable but i'm forcing you to feel me
<QueenOf> word life this is
<QueenOf> wow john cena is a terrible rapper
<QueenOf> Whether fightin, or spittin, my discipline is
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<QueenOf> Got you backin up, in a defensive position
<QueenOf> An ass-kickin anthem, heavyweight or bantam
<QueenOf> Holdin camps for ransom, the microphone phantom
<QueenOf> Teams hit the floor, this the new fight joint
<QueenOf> Like a broken needle kid, you missin the point!
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's why he only has one WWE album and R-Truth has a rap career
<BoN> who are you referancing?