October 31 1968: Lyndon Johnson and Everett Dirksen

A transcript supplement to the post "The Treason of Richard Nixon Part One" (http://italkyoubored.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/the-treason-of-richard-nixon-from-possibility-to-certainty/).

OPERATOR
Senator Dirksen.

JOHNSON
Put Senator Dirksen on, I'm ready. I'm in a meeting, tell him I'm in a meeting, but I want to talk, I missed him when I was at the Security Council.

OPERATOR
Senator Dirksen? It's the president.

DIRKSEN
Are you in a meeting?

JOHNSON
Yes, but go ahead. I can hear.

DIRKSEN
You can say what is the situation.

JOHNSON
Everett, we have said to the...first of all, I cannot tell you this, that's gonna be quoted. Because I can't tell the candidates, and I can't tell anybody else. I haven't talked to a human. I want to comply with it, trust, but I sure don't want it told to a human.

DIRKSEN
I give you my solemn word.

JOHNSON
Alright. The situation is this: since September of last year, we have told Hanoi that we would stop the bombing. We're anxious to stop it. When they would engage in, these are the keywords, prompt, productive discussions that they would not take advantage of. That is September. March 31st I came to the conclusion that no living man can run for office and be a candidate, and have them all shooting at him, and keep this war out of politics, and get peace. So I concluded, that I should not run because I'd just prolong the war by doing it. So I said then, we're stopping the bombing in ninety percent, we will stop it in the rest. If there can be any indication that'll not cost us additional lives. We got, just a lot of procrastination, up until October. During October, they started asking questions what did I mean by prompt, and what did I mean by productive. Now, the facts of life are, they tried two offensives in May and August and they got very severe setbacks. The facts are that they've had thirty thousand forty thousand leave the country to re-fit. The facts are that they're not doing at all well. But they can continue to supply what they need for a very long time. But in October we started getting these nibbles. What did the president mean? What did he say when he said he had to have prompt and productive, not take advantage. We said, that we would consider productive if the GVN had to be present. They said they were just generals and stooges, and satellites, and Johnson put them in, always saying they would never sit down with those traitors. We said, you've got to sit down with them, before we can ever work out the future. We can't settle the future of South Vietnam without them being present. We're not going to pull a Hitler-Chamberlin deal. They said they would never do it. So, on October 7th or the 11th, I've forgotten, they said, "Well now, what else, is that all the president wants? If we would sit down with the GVN, what would he do?"

Now, they made no commitment, they didn't indicate they accepted, they just asked the question. But, you know, in trading, when a fellow says how much would you take for that horse, you kinda think that means something. So, we followed it up, and we said, "No, we don't want to limit ourselves. The GVN's got to be present, and we've got to have productive discussions, and we think they could be productive, if they were present. But we can't have a (pamajon?) and say we'll do that, and say we'll meet a year from now. It's got to be a prompt meeting, a week, two weeks, three weeks, something like that. So, they said, "Well, if we could work everything out, we could meet the next day." So, we came back the next day, and said, if you let the GVN come in, and we'll meet the next day, we would like to take that up with our government. (coughs) They said, "Well, what else do you want? Is that all?" Right off that, Harriman said, "No, these are facts of life. We know you're not going to sell out, and engage in reciprocity, and you're not going to accept conditions, and your pride, and your asiatic face will not let you do that. You've got to save face, we understand that. But we could not sit at a conference table if you were shelling the cities." In other words, if I were talking to Dirksen in my living room, and my son was raping his wife, he'd have to get up and leave, quit trading, and run and protect her. So, we just could not sit there, if you were shelling the cities. Nor could we sit there, and have a productive discussion if you were abusing the DMZ.

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
So, they said, well, that's reciprocity, and we're not gonna pay any attention to it, and they about that time, Nixon made some little statement about, we handled the war wrong, and Hubert said, he was going to stop bombing without any comma or semicolon, just period. And then Mac Bundy made a fool speech where he said we oughta stop it for nothing. And pull our troops out. So, they picked up and went to Hanoi. And they stayed in Hanoi two weeks, from October 15th to right about now. October 11th, I guess. They come back now and, all this time we have been working with everybody we knew, the governments cannot be named, because it's a life and death to them. They may be invaded. But the Eastern Europeans have been helpful, the Indians have been helpful, the Soviets have been helpful, the French have been helpful, we've had them all in. And we have talked to some of them, yeah, every day. And we have told them the clock was ticking and that they could settle this in thirty days, they did 1954 in thirty days [the end of the Korean war], but that our constitutional processes did not change, we would have a new president, but Mansfield and Dirksen would still be leaders, and Russell would still be chairman of the Committee and Fulbright would likely be chairman. And those men would carry on and on, all of our joint chiefs would be the same, so they needn't delay, even if Humphrey was elected, they wouldn't be getting any better deal. Even if Nixon, they're not gonna be getting any better deal. Now, this is for your information only. We get to the point where it looks like we might get the GVN in the meeting. And they understand thoroughly that they will bust up the meeting, we won't come back here, Abrams is authorized by the rules of engagement to retaliate himself, if they shoot across the DMZ.

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
By launching bombers immediately. And we told them all that. Told the Russians, if that gets into the paper, the deal's off. That's why you cannot say this to anybody, it's gonna get in the paper. Because these folks are the most sensitive people in the world. But, we have said this, and about that time, some of Mr. Nixon's people come in and tell both sides, "I have information about who you had a glass of beer with last night, you don't know it, but I do." And we have ways and means, you get my point, don't you? You have ways and means of knowing what's going on in the country. We know what Thieu says, when he talks out in Vietnam, we know what happens here. And some of Mr. Nixon's people are getting a little unbalanced, and unfrightened, like Hubert did, when he said, no comma, no period. Like Bundy did. About the time you called me last week, they started going into the South Vietnamese embassy and also, sending some word to Hanoi. Which has prolonged this thing, a good deal. The net of it is despicable and if it were made public, I think it would rock the nation. But the net of it was, that if they just hold out a little bit longer, that he's [Nixon] a lot more sympathetic and he could kinda, do better business with him than they can with their present President. And, in Hanoi, they've been saying that, well, if you won't settle this thing, I'm not bound by all these things. So, I haven't had this record, and I could make a little better deal with you. There. I rather doubt Nixon has done any of this. But there's no question what folks for him are doing it. And very frankly, we're reading some of the things that are happening. So, as a consequence, while Thieu and all of our allies are ready to go on a bombing ceasefire, cessation, it just may be temporary, we might be back on it in the next day, if they don't follow these two things, if they violate the DMZ, or if they shell the cities. We could stop the killing out there, we could get everything we asked for, the GVN in there, but: they got this question, this new formula put in there. Namely: wait on Nixon. And they're killing four, five hundred every day, waiting on Nixon.

Now, these folks I doubt are authorized to speak for Nixon, but they're going in there, and they range all the way from attractive women to old line China lobbyists. And some people, pretty close to him in the business world. I was shocked when I looked at the reports. And I've got them. And so forth. Now, Thieu has, that's had a little effect on Thieu. He has signed onto this back as early as October, that this is what we oughta do. As have all the allied governments, as have the French, and as have the Russians, the fact that it's busted up is annoying. And all of our people. I told Dick Nixon, and George Wallace, and Hubert Humphrey, that we had to have prompt and productive discussions. And, in order to be productive, the GVN had to be present. It oughta be prompt, it oughta be in a matter of weeks, not two or three years. And that they wouldn't take advantage of, that meant they wouldn't be blowing up our house while trying to eat dinner. They wouldn't be trying to hit the DMZ and the cities. Now, if they do hit the DMZ and the cities, we would just have to come back to bombing the next day. Now then the facts are, that as of now, the monsoon has started there. The bombing ain't worth a damn and not gonna be for ninety days in the north. So, without telling them, we might quit anyway. If we had nothing in return. Because we need to do it in Laos where it's drying up and they can really increase their traffic. And we need to do it in South Vietnam, where they're trying to mount an offensive on Saigon. So, I called in all the joint chiefs, and all of them recommended that we stop. And that we take this GVN presence. I called in General Momyer [William Momyer], in charge of air force, because I knew I'd have this LeMay [Curtis LeMay] on my hands, and Momyer's been in charge of it in Vietnam. He operates from Thailand. He's down at Langley. And he explained to me, it wouldn't do any good where I'm bombing now, if I can get anything out of it, I oughta do it, and then move it over to the other place, and we can't say we're gonna move it over because it'll look like we're not giving them anything, and we're not sincere. If we'd given up bombing the north, we'd have spread more bombs on the south. But he told me, that was it. Every civilian, every military man we have talked to, and [General] Andy Goodpastor, particularly, is very strong - but I decided I had to talk to Abrams before I reached any conclusion. He sent me a cable, and said he would do it, without the cities, and without the DMZ, if they just let the GVN be present because he in effect is going to do it anyway.

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
And he said, psychologically, the GVN being present will really wreck the Viet Cong because it'll mean that their supporters, the Soviets, and the Hanoi, have really recognized them, or they wouldn't let them come at the meeting. Well, that's what our folks think, I don't know, we're gonna let the NLF come in at the meeting, so we're not recognizing them, but they think psychologically this'll really do them up in the South, and Westmoreland, and Abrams, and Momyer, think they've had them whipped since September. They think they're whipped. So, Abrams came in at 2:30 yesterday morning, or day before yesterday morning, and he drove twenty four hours straight time, and stayed there till four o'clock. And he was just as strong as horse radish, and said this oughta be done. We took this, and I went back to Paris, and asked Paris, how many times they'd told them that they had to respect the cities and respect the DMZ and they counted up, and they came back here, and told them twelve times, now they've never agreed to it, because they will not agree to reciprocity. But they know that if they don't do it, that Abrams may trigger Abrams' reaction, just on again off again, just a matter of hours, the bombing will be resumed. So, then we went back to the Soviets, and we said we don't want to deceive anybody, this is close to the election, it's a very delicate period, I have told Nixon and Wallace and Humphrey all the same thing, and I'm telling you now. Nixon said, do you have to have all three of them? And I said, no, I really don't have to have any of them, if I thought, I said, if they do any little thing, I would stop the bombing. But I'd like to have all three, and I'm gonna try and get all three. Well, in effect, that's what we're likely to get. So, I went back to the Russians, and said, now, we don't want to be deceitful, and if we should start bombing, the meeting's gotta be prompt. The DMZ's gotta be respected. And the shelling of the cities has got to stop. And we know you can't guarantee it, but we want you to be damn sure we know it. Because the moment we stop, if you re-start this, you're gonna be hit with interest, and we're gonna double the force. And Abrams is gonna come to Washington, he can do it automatically. Now, we - I, Lyndon Johnson - have grave doubts that they'll stop shelling the cities or the DMZ because if they do, they just admit they've lost South Vietnam.

So, I went to Mr. (inaudible) and he came back, and he said, the doubts the president has are unjustified. That he thinks they want peace. So, then we went to the Indians, and the Indians came back and said the same thing. Now, that's where we are. We're here now, talking to our folks here, talking about the rules of engagement, and what Abrams would do if we stopped the bombing, if they should hit Saigon, and we're trying to conclude that and we're going to try and have Vance [Cyrus Vance] go back and be sure they don't misunderstand any of the language, be sure they're willing to let the GVN come in the room. 'Course a communist agreement ain't worth a dime, they might walk out. But you're gonna have to some time test it. And Clifford says and Bus Wheeler [Earl "Bus" Wheeler, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff] says, you gotta test their faith, they might not mean it. But that's about where it is. Now, no decision has been reached, no order has been issued. It takes about twelve hours from the time we make a decision...until we issue the order. The meeting, no meeting, could take place before the election. The meeting would have to take place after the election, but it's my feeling that I ought to, the first minute I can, stop the killing if I can, and not keep justifying I quit the race for the presidency to get peace and put peace before politics. Unlike some sonofabitch like Rafferty [Max Rafferty, a California Senate candidate, whose profile on-line is here: <a href="http://www.fofweb.com/History/MainPrintPage.asp?iPin=TJY382&amp;DataType=AmericanHistory&amp;WinType=Free">"Rafferty, Max from <i>The Johnson Years, Presidential Profiles</i>."</a>] out here in Los Angeles say, well, Johnson's playing politics, or, I thought Dick's statement was ugly the other day, that he had been told that I was a thief, and a sonofabitch, and so forth, but he knew my mother, and she really wasn't a bitch. I mean, you set up a statement like that, then deny it, it's not very good, because he knows better, and it hurt my feelings, you damn republicans get mean when you get into politics, and I think it's cost him a lot of votes, I think he's losing the last few days, because of that statement.

I played it clean, I talked to Eisenhower about it, I made Wheeler brief him, I've told Nixon every bit as much if not more than Humphrey knows, I've given Humphrey not one thing, and up to now, Nixon and the Republicans have supported me just as well as the Democrats and a helluva lot better than McCarthy and Fulbright and the rest of them. But he got into politics and when this goddamn Mel Laird, he told them the other day that Joe Califano and the other were shoving me. Well, Joe Califano can't spell Vietnam, he's never been in one meeting with me. But that's what he put out. Now, the men I rely on are Bus Wheeler, General Westmoreland, Admiral Moorer, General McConnell the Chief Staff, General, head of the Marine Corps, General Momyer, who's down at Langley but in charge of air, General Abrams, Ambassador Bunker, and Dean Rusk. I don't pay much attention to even the subordinates over in the other place. Now, I've been at this five years, and if I don't wanna sell my country out, I'd have sold it out five months ago and gone on, run for president and got this war behind us, then got me re-elected. But I am a conscientious, earnest fella trying to do a job. And I'm gonna do it. I get peace at four o'clock Saturday noon, I'm damn sure gonna get it, come hell or high water, and woebe onto the guy who says you oughta keep on killing. But I really think it's a little dirty pool for Dick's people to be messing with the South Vietnamese ambassador and carrying messages around for both of them. And I don't think people would approve of it if it were known. So, that's why I'm afraid to talk.


Now, when I make a decision, and we're meeting again this afternoon, and we met all morning this morning, and we're out there and it's 5:30 in Saigon now, we're awaiting probably 6:30, six o'clock to see what answers they'll get. We had to wait until Abrams got back home, he left, and he had to fly twenty four hours, so he got in there three o'clock. Straight through. When we do, the first thing I'm gonna do is call you if it's five minutes from now, or five hours, or five days, and I never know, I thought a hundred times in the last month it'd be five hours. But nobody knows when you're dealing with eight countries with all the folks in Paris, with all the folks in Saigon, and here. I'm gonna call you and Mike Mansfield on the phone, I'm gonna tell you exactly what I told you now. I can't add a damn thing to it. If we stop the bombing, they are gonna agree the GVN is gonna come to the conference table promptly and productively, and we'll stay stopped if they don't hit the cities. And if they don't go across the DMZ. If they do, we'll be right back at it and Abrams got his orders and he's here the other day. Now, we'll just test their faith. I don't see it making any difference in the political campaign cuz first of all, conference won't happen till it's over with, I think I'd be glad to say that all the candidates have a, co-operate with me and we oughta have one voice in foreign affairs. And while they criticize my conduct of the war, they have never told the enemy that he'd get a better deal. But this last few days, Dick is getting just a little bit shakey, and he's pissing on the fire a little. Now, you oughta guide him just a little bit, because they're not running against me, I'm not gonna be here, you're gonna be my senator, and you're gonna represent me, and whatever I want done, I'm gonna be down at Purnell. But he oughta go back to that old (inaudible), say...as a matter of fact, we have a transcript where one of his partners said he's gonna play this one just like Fortas. He's gonna take the Republicans and the Southerners and he's gonna frustrate the President by telling South Vietnamese, just wait a few more days and he's not connected to this war, he can make a better peace for them. And by telling Hanoi, that he isn't running this war, didn't get them into it, be a lot more considerate of them than I can, because I'm pretty inflexible, calling them sonsofbitches. Now, that's not very easy to work under those conditions. Anymore than it is, when Hubert says he'll stop the bombing without a comma semicolon but period. They neither one of them got a damn thing to do with it between now and January the 20th. And I'm gonna stop the earliest second I can. And I can stop it for nothing if I want to, I have five times before. But I'm not gonna stop it unless they agree the GVN will be at that table.

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
I'm not gonna stop it unless they understand if they want that table blown up all they got to do is hit the DMZ or the cities. And if I do that, it's complete, absolute 100% all we've asked for since last September. Now, I'd be glad to have any suggestions or judgements or advice, that you've got to give.

DIRKSEN
That GVN, you mean the government-

JOHNSON
That means, these satellites, these stooges, puppets, that they've been referring to, that they'd never go in a room with. The people who were elected president and vice president, Thieu and Ky. That's been the thing that's held it up. You can't divide up a country, settle it, if you won't let their president come. Unless you're Hitler, and Sudetenland, and Chamberlin, and stuff like that. So, basically, we have said they have got to have self-determination. And if you're gonna make a decision, that affects them, whether it's the '52 Geneva accords, wherever you put the boundary lines, you gotta be present. They said shut up, we will never let them come in the room. Now, they started asking. If we would let them come in the room, what else would you make us do? Now, that indicates to us that we can do it, and Vance is talking to them right today.

DIRKSEN
Yeah. So that's it.

JOHNSON
Now what do you think about it?

DIRKSEN
Well. I certainly don't quarrel with the way you've handled this matter. And of course (inaudible) the fellows on my side get antsy pantsy. They wonder what the impact would be if a ceasefire or a halt to the bombing could be proclaimed at any given hour. What the impact could be on the result next Tuesday.

JOHNSON
Well I don't know what it'd be. I don't know- First, it's not gonna be any ceasefire.

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
Second, if there's gonna be anything, which we have to decide, and which we're trying this very minute, it would be just stopping the bombing as we've done six or eight times. But the big question would be: is what did they stop? If they stopped the cities, and if they stopped the DMZ, then there'd be a lot of hard negotiation that would last several months. It wouldn't stop the war at all. But it might stop the killing temporarily. As a matter of fact, it's been cut down to a hundred the last two weeks. And, to me, when Nixon's saying "I want the war stopped. That I'm supporting Johnson. That I want him to get peace if he can. That I'm not gonna pull the rug out on him." I don't see how in the hell it can be helped unless he goes to fartin' under the cover and getting his hand under somebody's dress. And he better keep Mrs. Chennault and all this crowd tied up for a few days cuz he's got the right formula, and I think he done well. I think Humphrey screwed himself up. John Connally told me he's gonna lose Texas just because he's shedding it on the war.

DIRKSEN
Well. That's it. I'll have to separate this out a little. Course he'll call again.

JOHNSON
Well, just don't put it in the paper. Tell him the first people- There're gonna be two calls I'm making. And you have to be prepared to get them at any time.

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
One of them's gonna be you and Mansfield and leaders. The other's gonna be the candidates. Both of you gonna be told the same identical thing. The damn man that says he thinks the war oughta go on under these conditions, continue to bomb when they say "Let the GVN come," and when we tell them if they bomb the cities we'll be resuming it in one hour, I don't think anybody can justify that. So I think that everybody oughta have a statement ready and oughta say, "Well, they have apparently given the president what he asked for," and this doesn't mean we got peace at all, it just means we're stopping the bombing and they gonna agree to let this have prompt, productive discussions that we've been raising hell about since September. So I compliment General Abrams, General Westmoreland for bringing them to this state of military affairs where they've got to agree to it.

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
And I've supported it all along, and I thank god my conscience I've never pulled the rug out from under my commander-in-chief. Now, that's the way I treat Eisenhower and that's the way you've treated me up to now. And don't you get so damn eager for eighty three percent vote that you go cut me out there in the last few days.

DIRKSEN
You know I wouldn't-

JOHNSON
I know you wouldn't do it. I know you wouldn't. But Dick, I don't quite understand his people. I don't know whether he knows it or not, but the other day he came out here, he said "They say Johnson is a thief. But I knew his daddy and I don't think he's a thief, and they say he's a sonofabitch, and I knew his mother, she's not a bitch." Well, hell he advertised all over the country, he left, he planted the idea, he knew goddamn well I've been fair to him.

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
And I didn't like that. And I found out Mel Laird was the one operating on it. Your friend Mel Laird.

DIRKSEN
Yeah, I haven't seen him around. Anywhere.

JOHNSON
How's your campaign coming?

DIRKSEN
Well, it's coming on pretty fair.

JOHNSON
Well now, would you do this any differently than the way I've been trying to do it?

DIRKSEN
No, I wouldn't.

JOHNSON
I could've settled this thing and stopped the bombing a month ago. But I've been trying to get all of my three things.

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
Do you understand, don't you, that they are not agreeing that they will stop shelling the cities?

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
You understand that they are not agreeing to respect the DMZ?

DIRKSEN
Yeah.

JOHNSON
But they do know that if they don't do either, we're not stopping the bombing either. So we're right where we started. What they are agreeing, if we ever pull off the deal, that the GVN can come in the meeting, and that's what Rusk says is absolutely imperative.

DIRKSEN
Yeah. That would be the government, the constituted government.

JOHNSON
The elected government of Vietnam. That all of these men went out there, you appointed some men to go out from your outfit, I think Rusk went, I've forgotten. And they watched the election. Thieu was elected, and Ky was elected. And I hope you think this is alright.

DIRKSEN
Well, I do.

JOHNSON
Thank you.

DIRKSEN
Okay.