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negens defends hexen

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May 22nd, 2015
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  1. and Frenchy did the same.
  2. [5:41:49 PM] Joseph: yeah but this should most likely put him on conditionals
  3. [5:41:55 PM] Joseph: along with yoman
  4. [5:42:35 PM] Joseph: and seb says he got shock in 7th in the chat, but I don't think hexen sees it
  5. [5:43:11 PM] Negens: ^
  6. [5:43:28 PM] Joseph: so whats likely to happen is
  7. [5:43:32 PM] Negens: Difference between hexen's/Cobra case and Brian/Xander
  8. [5:43:39 PM] Negens: is that if you go to hexen and ask about that hack
  9. [5:43:41 PM | Edited 5:44:17 PM] Negens: he will tell you he did hack
  10. [5:43:45 PM] Joseph: frenchy on conditionals
  11. if yoman ever comes back, on conditionals
  12. hexen banned
  13. [5:43:47 PM] Negens: and he even streamed that
  14. [5:44:24 PM] Negens: like Cobra
  15. [5:44:50 PM] Negens: it's good enough to put on conditionals forever, but nothing else imo
  16. [5:45:46 PM | Edited 5:46:17 PM] Joseph: no, that's 2 hacking incidents from hexen pre-wiimmfi, based on banning xander and brian, he should also be banned
  17. [5:46:19 PM] Negens: I can't call it "hacking incidence" based on what I've seen.
  18. I mean that's not like a Mverdam case or anything
  19. [5:46:52 PM | Edited 5:46:55 PM] Joseph: its a real war and hes hacking, whether he sees it as a joke, or hes transparent in that he did hack is not relevant
  20. [5:46:56 PM] Negens: Xander and Brian wouldn't admit to hacking, and they weren't hacking for "fun".
  21. [5:47:18 PM] Negens: He's hacking obviously WHILE streaming it to everyone on the last day of the server
  22. [5:47:25 PM] Joseph: he was short sighted, he hacked because he didn't anticipate wiimmfi and he didn't anticipate he would play on wiimmfi
  23. [5:47:47 PM] Negens: there is a difference with hacking for the glory and getting big pts
  24. [5:47:50 PM] Joseph: we shouldn't excuse him flippantly breaking the rules, showing it to everyone, just because he didn't anticipate what has happened
  25. [5:48:40 PM] Negens: that's why I can't count it a hack on the day pre wiimmfi, and can't count it on a wiimmfi day either, because that was the last day and no one knew about wiimmfi.
  26. [5:48:51 PM] Joseph: he chose to hack in a war, it doesn't matter if he thought it was a joke, it doesn't matter if he thought the game was dead
  27. [5:48:58 PM] Negens: But that doesn't mean I'm ok with that kind of thing. For me it's conditional forever
  28. [5:49:13 PM] Joseph: hes already on conditionals forever
  29. [5:49:19 PM] Joseph: as far as this rule set goes
  30. [5:49:24 PM] Joseph: because he was caught before
  31. [5:49:56 PM] Joseph: there has to be consequence. we cant just excuse this because hexen didn't think about what he did
  32. [5:50:34 PM] Joseph: he should have known better, they all should have, but they clearly didn't, and for that, they will be appropriately punished
  33. [5:50:47 PM] Negens: that's stupid as fuck
  34. [5:51:18 PM] Joseph: why is that stupid? because he thought it wouldn't matter? because he thought it was a joke?
  35. [5:52:17 PM] Joseph: I don't care about how open he is to having hacked, ruso was open to me that he hacked, hiba was open to me that he hacked, if those two came back, I would lobby for them to be on conditionals forever
  36. [5:52:36 PM] Negens: Because the officials servers would have close, that he were blatantly doing it WITH Stream
  37. [5:53:00 PM] Negens: That's not a "proof" for me
  38. [5:53:22 PM] Joseph: what does it matter that he streamed, in the stream hes pretending its lag, maybe that's also a joke, but that's just it, "it was a joke" is not an acceptable justification
  39. [5:54:16 PM] Joseph: "it was a joke" and "he didn't know about wiimmfi" cannot be accepted as justifications for him, and the rest of ar, to have chosen to hack
  40. [5:54:18 PM] Negens: MAN THAT'S OBVIOUS AS FUCK LOL
  41. [5:54:28 PM] Negens: If the Council think the same as you
  42. [5:54:32 PM] Negens: I'm creating my own league
  43. [5:54:38 PM] Negens: because this Council really is crappy then
  44. [5:54:43 PM] Negens: and everyone from it should be removed
  45. [5:55:42 PM] Joseph: I don't understand where you are coming from. these guys chose to hack, they weren't smart enough to consider that someone would continue to keep the servers alive, nor that they would want to keep playing in the event of that
  46. [5:56:07 PM] Joseph: sure, its not fair for them to be expected to have known about these things
  47. [5:56:14 PM] Joseph: but its also not fair that they hacked
  48. [5:56:41 PM] Joseph: it wouldn't be fair if they hacked and got away with no consequences
  49. [5:56:58 PM] Negens: So if I Stream myself now downloading some codes
  50. [5:57:07 PM] Negens: and streaming for fun in GP solo
  51. [5:57:14 PM] Negens: I'd get on conditionals?
  52. [5:57:19 PM] Joseph: you would be placed on conditionals most likely
  53. [5:58:05 PM] Negens: that's not evidence I've been hacking before and that I was trying to hack to get famous/glory/pts
  54. [5:58:22 PM] Joseph: so it would not be permanent
  55. [5:58:37 PM] Negens: and if I redo it then
  56. [5:58:45 PM] Negens: hacking on solo offline while streaming
  57. [5:59:06 PM] Joseph: in the interest of fairness, you would probably be placed on conditionals again
  58. [5:59:24 PM] Negens: then if I proove myself again not hacking
  59. [5:59:29 PM] Negens: then redo it again in Solo offline?
  60. [5:59:50 PM] Joseph: theres no need to escalate because you haven't hacked in a competitive environment
  61. [5:59:56 PM] Joseph: it will keep going back and forth
  62. [6:01:51 PM] Joseph: I get where you are coming from, he streamed, he admitted it, hes not hiding anything, but it just doesn't change the fact that he chose to hack in a competitive environment
  63. [6:02:14 PM] Negens: I don't call that a competitive environment
  64. [6:02:24 PM] Negens: the moment every single player from a line up are streaming themselve hacking
  65. [6:02:34 PM] Negens: that war was more of a joke than a competitive environment
  66. [6:02:48 PM] Joseph: personally, I don't understand why anyone would ever get codes, I have never had codes of any variety in 5 years, my vr has fallen, never gotten codes to max it, never gotten codes to get the aesthetic rank of my choice
  67. [6:03:00 PM] Joseph: so I just have absolutely no sympathy for someone who chooses to hack
  68. [6:03:12 PM] Negens: I don't either
  69. [6:04:03 PM] Joseph: so what do you propose then, instead of having such a problem with what I think, whats your solution
  70. [6:04:15 PM] Negens: but I can't sympathize with guys that try to frame one year after the fact, when it was for the fun.
  71. If someone was hacking while streaming in solo, I wouldn't ban him. That would be stupid. Even if it is someone who is already on conditionals forever
  72. [6:04:23 PM] Joseph: hexen is already on conditionals forever for uploading himself using forced codes
  73. [6:04:32 PM] Joseph: how do you punish him further
  74. [6:05:09 PM] Negens: This case isn't something that needs to be punished more than forced conditionals forever for every player from the line up.
  75. [6:05:14 PM] Joseph: because if you don't have anything, then youre saying no punishment, youre allowing him to break the rules with no consequence, youre showing sympathy
  76. [6:05:41 PM] Negens: especially since Hexen has been playing with conditionals for one year now, and even getting mvp
  77. [6:05:56 PM] Negens: as of now (and before) he is/was trustworthy for the community
  78. [6:06:07 PM] Negens: if you go to him, he will tell you he hacked on that day, explain why he did that
  79. [6:06:21 PM] Joseph: yeah, and he would be in perfectly good standing with the community
  80. [6:06:22 PM] Negens: He won't try to deny it, to hide evidence, to make random theories
  81. [6:06:26 PM] Joseph: if he didn't choose to hack, twice
  82. [6:07:28 PM] Negens: that case, as I said, shouldn't be punished because it was "out" of the competitive game, since it was the last day
  83. [6:07:40 PM] Negens: It's not like he streamed past war of himself were he hacked
  84. [6:07:48 PM] Negens: that thing would have been a ban, but this joke?
  85. [6:07:53 PM] Joseph: right, but was vry hacking?
  86. [6:08:10 PM] Negens: ask Smith
  87. [6:08:21 PM | Edited 6:08:26 PM] Negens: he would probably have known it was an hacking war
  88. [6:08:48 PM] Joseph: well, the fact is theres no proof vry was hacking
  89. [6:09:00 PM] Joseph: there is proof hexen was
  90. [6:09:27 PM] Joseph: theres only proof that one side chose to hack, theres no proof vry was also treating this as a joke
  91. [6:10:17 PM] Joseph: just because it was the last day doesn't mean the rules stop applying
  92. [6:10:46 PM] Joseph: the rules would be relevant even if wiimmfi never happened and somehow the council still existed
  93. [6:12:03 PM] Joseph: all that matters is this rule
  94.  
  95. G. Cheating
  96.  
  97. 1. Players must not use any form of hacking, intentionally lagging, or other exploitations (programs ran from a PC sending data from the console is included) which may be considered to be an advantage over their opponent.
  98. 1a. Hacking or cheating is an automatic ban for the player and a loss for the clan in that match.
  99. [6:13:02 PM] Negens: I don't see your "competitive environment" on that rule
  100. [6:13:15 PM] Negens: meaning that If I show myself hacking two times on solo while streaming
  101. [6:13:20 PM] Negens: I would still get permanently banned from CSL
  102. [6:13:24 PM] Joseph: in that match.there
  103. [6:13:33 PM] Negens: That means a loss for the match
  104. [6:13:35 PM] Negens: nothing else
  105. [6:14:08 PM | Edited 6:14:16 PM] Negens: Meaning if
  106.  
  107. someone hacks: ban
  108. someone hacks in a war: ban + his team lost the war
  109. [6:14:17 PM] Joseph: alright, I was wrong then, regardless, it doesn't change the application of the rule
  110. [6:14:29 PM] Negens: That doesn't change the fact that it's pretty stupid
  111. [6:14:40 PM] Joseph: if anything its even more concrete because it doesn't even matter if the match is serious
  112. [6:14:52 PM] Negens: it's like you would ban me forever if I hacked two times on solo while streaming it
  113. [6:14:52 PM] Joseph: do you know what else is pretty stupid
  114. [6:15:01 PM] Joseph: STREAMING YOURSELF HACKING
  115. [6:15:18 PM] Joseph: but you seem so willing to wave that off as just a joke, or something irrelevant
  116. [6:15:23 PM] Negens: that's why you can't take this a solid proof
  117. [6:15:33 PM] Negens: because it's not a serious case
  118. [6:15:45 PM] Joseph: no, that's why we have to apply the rules as they are written
  119. [6:16:01 PM] Negens: then you're doing a huge mistake
  120. [6:16:19 PM] Joseph: one which only happens because those guys chose to hack
  121. [6:16:43 PM] Negens: your mistake would be to apply the rules dumblessly "we have ruuuuuules"
  122. [6:16:59 PM] Negens: without studying the evidence, the reason, etc..
  123. [6:17:08 PM] Joseph: in my eyes treating this as nothing important is even stupider
  124. [6:17:19 PM] Negens: I don't call it "nothing important"
  125. [6:17:27 PM] Negens: They hacked, I won't say anything about that
  126. [6:17:31 PM] Joseph: this is a player choosing to hack, so confident that he knows none of this will matter, that he streams it
  127. [6:17:33 PM] Negens: what would be stupidier than stupid
  128. [6:17:39 PM] Negens: would be to ban for a reason like that
  129. [6:17:46 PM] Joseph: suddenly, it turns out it matters
  130. [6:17:54 PM] Joseph: his overconfidence must be punished
  131. [6:18:05 PM] Negens: Man, that's not hacking on the competitive scene
  132. [6:18:05 PM] Joseph: his overconfidence to defy the rules for a joke
  133. [6:19:18 PM] Joseph: youre suggesting we establish a precedent that its ok to break the rules because we are overconfident and wrong, as long as we don't mean harm, and that is ridiculous
  134. [6:19:50 PM] Joseph: especially if you go to the party defying the rules for your opinion on if it was meant to be harmless
  135. [6:20:01 PM] Negens: That wouldn't mean you are breaking the rules if you put this as a special case while still putting everyone from the line up in a conditional forever
  136. [6:20:09 PM] Joseph: of course hexen would make you think that, if he didn't, he would get no sympathy at all
  137. [6:20:21 PM] Negens: I didn't speak with Gory before making that statement
  138. [6:20:33 PM] Joseph: no, I meant youre assuming his perspective
  139. [6:20:44 PM] Joseph: that its a joke, that wifi is over
  140. [6:20:54 PM] Negens: Because I know AR.
  141. [6:20:55 PM] Joseph: that it doesn't matter
  142. [6:21:14 PM] Negens: And so this video doesn't surprise me
  143. [6:21:31 PM] Joseph: and im saying its ridiculous to look at the perspective of a rule breaker when youre searching for justification of the rule
  144. [6:21:39 PM] Negens: Well IT DOES because it has been uploaded 2 DAYS AGO
  145. [6:22:03 PM] Joseph: of course hexen, and by extension, AR, don't think its a big deal, don't think it matters
  146. [6:22:23 PM] Joseph: if they thought it mattered, they probably wouldn't have streamed
  147. [6:22:32 PM] Joseph: they might have done it anyway, but without stream, who knows
  148. [6:23:07 PM] Joseph: theres no point wondering things like "did it matter" when this happened a year ago, when at the time, none of these guys had the vision to anticipate wiimmfi would come
  149. [6:23:20 PM] Joseph: what matters is they chose to hack, they chose to break the rules
  150. [6:23:36 PM] Joseph: and for that there has to be a consequence
  151. [6:24:29 PM] Negens: consequence would be conditionals forever
  152. [6:24:41 PM | Edited 6:24:43 PM] Joseph: so punish everyone but hexen
  153. [6:25:03 PM] Joseph: when hexen is the one who is the most audacious, the most flippant, the most defiant of the rules
  154. [6:25:27 PM] Negens: Hexen is the only one streaming it
  155. [6:25:32 PM] Negens: meaning he wasn't hiding anything
  156. [6:25:48 PM] Joseph: you choose to view that was transparency
  157. [6:25:52 PM] Negens: As I said, if it was content from previous wars were it mattered, it would have gotten another impact
  158. [6:25:54 PM] Joseph: I choose to view it was audacity
  159. [6:26:11 PM] Negens: I choose to view that as a stupid case
  160. [6:26:14 PM] Negens: not a serious one
  161. [6:26:15 PM] Negens: therefore
  162. [6:26:25 PM] Joseph: right, its stupid that they did this
  163. [6:26:31 PM] Joseph: so you just want them to get away with it?
  164. [6:26:39 PM] Negens: 3. Players may be required to abide by Conditional Participation rules should they have a reasonable accusation made against them and/or be widely suspected of cheating.
  165. [6:26:43 PM] Joseph: it was stupid that mverdam lost a mega, and then immediately hacked another one
  166. [6:26:49 PM] Negens: "reasonable" accusation
  167. [6:27:04 PM] Joseph: so we shouldn't have banned mverdam because what he did was just stupid
  168. [6:27:30 PM] Negens: reasonable accusation
  169. => was the last day of Nintendo servers.
  170. => no option to know the game would continue
  171. => last war
  172. [6:27:41 PM] Negens: No, because Mverdam was playing it in a competitive scene where it mattered
  173. [6:27:57 PM] Negens: same with dydyboy
  174. [6:27:59 PM] Negens: same with Xander and Brian
  175. [6:28:02 PM] Joseph: reasonable accusation is one that is not proven, but is still not a clear case of innocence
  176. [6:28:03 PM] Negens: they tried to hide it
  177. [6:28:19 PM] Joseph: it was never meant to be applied to someone willfully hacking and showing it off to everybody
  178. [6:28:42 PM] Negens: Ok
  179. [6:28:46 PM] Negens: then I can say
  180. [6:28:58 PM] Negens: that this footage isn't a viable proof
  181. [6:29:06 PM] Negens: because it could have been edited
  182. [6:29:11 PM] Negens: since it was posted one year after the "fact"
  183. [6:30:08 PM] Joseph: yes, its highly likely AR warred Vry with the same lineup on BCWii enough times that this could be edited, and that every player happened to be in the exact same place for each edit, but with different items
  184. [6:30:28 PM] Negens: You don't have two perspectives of that war
  185. [6:30:39 PM] Negens: therefore you can't assume this isn't the same war as the last's of wiimmfi
  186. [6:31:16 PM] Joseph: it doesn't matter when this happened, if anything, making the time this war takes place unclear makes it even worse for hexen
  187. [6:31:31 PM] Negens: What I was meaning by that is
  188. [6:31:32 PM] Joseph: because he loses his excuse that it was the end of mkw
  189. [6:31:35 PM] Negens: you can't say it is gory that is playing
  190. [6:31:41 PM] Negens: because you don't see his name on the video
  191. [6:33:06 PM] Negens: I see "AR anto"
  192. [6:36:12 PM] Joseph: ok then do you want us to ban anto? because theres also no proof of the date this takes place, and since its upload date is today, we have to then assume it took place in wiimmfi
  193. [6:36:36 PM] Negens: Yes please ban anto
  194. [6:36:44 PM] Negens: I was playing with him since KC
  195. [6:36:46 PM] Negens: I know he hacked
  196. [6:37:10 PM] Joseph: somebody goes down for this, it doesn't matter how much random speculation you keep injecting into it
  197. [6:37:23 PM] Joseph: its clear whoever this is, is hacking
  198. [6:37:57 PM] Negens: that's AR Anto, so you should ban Anto
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