irc.freenode.net ##feminist

irc.freenode.net ##feminist has run out of +b slots

Somehow, this is freenode's fault.

--- Log opened Fri Oct 31 15:32:42 2014
15:32 < topdownjimmy> /join #ascii
15:32 < viriditas> (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ・。*。✧・゜゜・。✧。*・゜゜・✧。・­­­­­゜゜・。*。・゜*✧
15:33 < syzombiegy> hi _spanner_
15:33 <+KaiseRIP> i actually joined it topdownjimmy
15:33 <+KaiseRIP> i thought it was a real chan
15:33 < topdownjimmy> KaiseRIP: I don't read French. :\
15:33 < topdownjimmy> me too! how is it possible that it's totally empty
15:34 <+KaiseRIP> maybe they got tired of all the twitch spam
15:34 <+KaiseRIP> _*
15:34 <+KaiseRIP> :P
15:34 < topdownjimmy> i wanna see in my buffer just a rapid waterfall of huge ascii art
15:34 <+KaiseRIP> no you dont :P
15:34 < topdownjimmy> :D
15:35 -!- svaksha [~svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
15:35 <+KaiseRIP> i can post twitch spam tho
15:35 <+KaiseRIP> ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ DUDUDU
15:35 -!- svaksha [~svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined ##feminist
15:35 -!- mode/##feminist [+v svaksha] by ChanServ
15:36 < goodwill> if I may ask ... what statemetn was the  "kline" response to? was it because of banning of freenode staff? or rah email?
15:36 < syzombiegy> goodwill: there's a private paste log up above
15:36 < syzombiegy> full context
15:37 -!- argent_ [~argent_@unaffiliated/argent/x-9181970] has joined ##feminist
15:37 < syzombiegy> hi argent_
15:37 < syzombiegy> https://privatepaste.com/19a0daf5cd
15:37 <@AUTOMATRON> Title: privatepaste.com :: Paste ID 19a0daf5cd (at privatepaste.com)
15:37 < syzombiegy> goodwill: ^
15:38 < kirjatoukka> seems like the response to "some users have concerns about the behaviour of freenode staff" is "well go elsewhere then" not "well let's address the behaviour of freenode staff then" :/
15:38 < tomaw> graveyar: I think it's reasonably obvious that it was an expression of frustration rather than a genuine threat. (kline channels that contain real people are a genuine pita as it generates tons of support requests to unkline too, fwiw :p)
15:39 <+GorillaNightmare> tomaw: That wasn't reasonably obvious :/
15:39 < kirjatoukka> if you don't mind me asking, tomaw, how was anyone supposed to know that it wasn't genuine?
15:39 < booit> even so, its completely inappropriate
15:39 < kirjatoukka> of all of the people who've read the pasted log, none of them guessed it wasn't genuine.
15:39 < tomaw> Most people learn to accept that language isn't always litteral so I assume that would've been picked up on.
15:39 < booit> doubly so after complaining about a ban
15:39 < kirjatoukka> except nobody did, tomaw.
15:40 < booit> is kline a metaphor for something? maybe an allegory?
15:40 < kirjatoukka> tomaw, it was obvious to you but nobody else who's read it.
15:40 <+graveyar> well that's good to know, tomaw. did you notice how I was very extra careful and polite towards you since you have power over me?
15:40 < syzombiegy> Very unprofessional and highly unlikely to not be taken literally after complaining about a ban as booit has said
15:41 <+KaiseRIP> context matters
15:41 < syzombiegy> Not a single other person took it as anything but a threat
15:42 <+graveyar> he expresses his emotions as actionable threats and then lectures me about what's "reasonable"
15:42 < tomaw> kirjatoukka: sometimes IRC and written communbication happen that way. Thankfully we're all decent people so it's unlikely to tarnish any longstanding relationship :)
15:42 -!- Claeris [~Claeris@6.sub-70-209-192.myvzw.com] has joined ##feminist
15:42 < octophore> uh I think you tarnished a good handful of relationships actually
15:43 < kirjatoukka> tomaw: indeed, but I'll hope you'll be more careful when communicating in future, especially when communicating about sensitive topics like this one.
15:43 <+GorillaNightmare> tomaw: So what is the current standing of ##feminist and the Freenode staff?
15:44 < syzombiegy> tomaw: What I don't understand is: the rationale for removing the extended ban list is that you couldn't monitor it, but you force joined the channel to monitor us thus allowing you to monitor the extended ban list yet you didn't put it back in place
15:44 < syzombiegy> Seems vindictive
15:45 < syzombiegy> and to monitor us for what exactly? That's never explained.  Just a vague "some kind of issues"
15:45 < kirjatoukka> i'm sure it was just an oversight and that tomaw will be happy to reinstate the extended ban list now it's been drawn to his attention. :)
15:45 < kirjatoukka> right?
15:45 <+graveyar> tomaw: when i asked for mediation, that should have been a wake-up call
15:45 < goodwill> does forcejoin and extended ban list have some kind of exclusivity
15:46 < goodwill> erm
15:46 < goodwill> that was incorrect
15:46 < goodwill> does forcejoin and extended ban list mutually exclusive
15:46 < goodwill> there we go
15:46 < goodwill> (ESL)
15:46 -!- AbigailBuccaneer [~AbigailBu@unaffiliated/jetbeard] has left ##feminist ["this channel is stressful. back later"]
15:46 < tomaw> they're two unrelated features of the ircd, if that's what you mean
15:47 -!- Claeris [~Claeris@6.sub-70-209-192.myvzw.com] has left ##feminist []
15:47 <+graveyar> and for the record, before anybody says we're wasting the staff's time, remember that we didn't ask for special attention, all we ever wanted was to be left alone
15:48 <+GorillaNightmare> tomaw: So will this channel regain +L?
15:48 -!- nephi [~Alexa@user-0cdvj37.cable.mindspring.com] has joined ##feminist
15:48 < syzombiegy> I'll just repeat myself seince it was never answered
15:48 < syzombiegy> tomaw: What I don't understand is: the rationale for removing the extended ban list is that you couldn't monitor it, but you force joined the channel to monitor us thus allowing you to monitor the extended ban list yet you didn't put it back in place
15:48 < goodwill> tomaw: so I takes the the when extended ban is applied it may warrant special attention since it is an uncommon cause and hence a staff member maybe in involved
15:48 <+graveyar> tomaw: when you used your power to forcibly evade a ban by joining here, why did you do it?
15:49 <+graveyar> the argument about +L doesn't make sense because you had already removed it
15:49 -!- Keilana [~Keilana@wikipedia/Keilana] has left ##feminist []
15:49 -!- nephi [~Alexa@user-0cdvj37.cable.mindspring.com] has left ##feminist ["Leaving"]
15:50 -!- tworkin [~Adium@97.77.193.138] has joined ##feminist
15:50 <+KaiseRIP> looks like people are getting uncomfortable :|
15:50 < syzombiegy> hi tworkin
15:51 -!- fhocutt [~fhocutt@c-67-168-75-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##feminist
15:53 < goodwill> reading this: "for some reason ##feminist decided to ban all staff earlier today" ... "as that removed my ability to monitor the extended ban list usage I have remove that mode from the channel" ... so it looks like the two are connected
15:53 < goodwill> some maybe since the ban is removed now +L can come back :)
15:53 < syzombiegy> goodwill: it doesn't matter because before the ban was removed, tomaw was monitoring the channel already
15:53 < booit> goodwill: the thing is that tomaw forcibly joined and didnt restore the L for some reason
15:53 < syzombiegy> "I forced joined myself in case you're having some kind of issues"
15:53 <+graveyar> at this point i'm not comfortable with perpetual staff monitoring
15:54 < tworkin> hi syzombiegy
15:54 -!- slothcough [~slothcoug@dhcp-108-168-53-218.cable.user.start.ca] has joined ##feminist
15:55 -!- enchilado is now known as elsalado
15:56 < syzombiegy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fWyzwo1xg0
15:56 <@AUTOMATRON> Title: Simon & Garfunkel - The Sounds of Silence (Audio) - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
15:57 < tomaw> Looking at the ban list now it doesn't appear that +L is required any more. The ban list contains lots of old bans that could probably be removed.
15:58 < syzombiegy> That doesn't answer the question at all...
15:58 <+graveyar> yay hours of work in order to be able to ban the next troll
15:59 < elsalado> If you're going to have such so many quickly given bans wouldn't +i make more sense?
15:59 < goodwill> tomaw: did he you have a specific concern about +L ? I think is what folks are asking?
15:59 < elsalado> Or +m?
15:59 <+graveyar> elsalado: the purpose of this channel is to be a safe, open feminist channel for women on freenode
15:59 -!- elsalado [~enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has left ##feminist [requested by AUTOMATRON (elsalado)]
16:00 -!- elsalado [~enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has joined ##feminist
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16:00 <+KaiseRIP> lolol
16:00 < goodwill> what happened?
16:00 <+KaiseRIP> the plot thickens apparently
16:00 < syzombiegy> tomaw backpeddled on his reasoning for removing the extended ban list so he doesn't seem vindictive
16:01 < syzombiegy> and then said the whole "k line the channel" was obvious just joking
16:01 <+KaiseRIP> that doesnt sound like jokign lol
16:01 -!- milly_tanz [~pink_anar@unaffiliated/pink-anarchist/x-5996911] has joined ##feminist
16:01 < booit> i think its obvious that was done out of resentment
16:01 < kirjatoukka> KaiseRIP: strangely, nobody else recognised it was a joke
16:01 <+KaiseRIP> and kinda distasteful thing to say given the context
16:01 <+KaiseRIP> i mean
16:01 < kirjatoukka> but regardless it was "obviously" a joke
16:01 <+KaiseRIP> if JFK said WE GON NUKE CUBA during the cuban missile crisis no-one would take it as a joke lol
16:02 <+graveyar> KaiseRIP: let's not escalate rhetoric quite that far >.>
16:02 <+KaiseRIP> im just giving a really hyperbolic example :P
16:02 -!- ZombieL [ZombieL@unaffiliated/zombieloffe] has quit []
16:03 -!- mgodinez [~mgodzilla@2601:8:8500:1027:20a:95ff:fe8c:2430] has joined ##feminist
16:03 < kirjatoukka> now the channel's going to get k-lined for advocating nuclear war with the soviet union :(
16:03 -!- Alan [~alan@unaffiliated/alan] has joined ##feminist
16:03 <+KaiseRIP> soviet union would win ofc comrade
16:03  * mgodinez scratches his nuts...
16:03 < goodwill> what the
16:03 <+graveyar> just to remind everybody, our purpose is not to escalate drama. our purpose is to make a principled stance about the need for a feminist channel on freenode.
16:04 -!- LambdaHex [~xander@unaffiliated/vesicant] has joined ##feminist
16:04 -!- LambdaHex [~xander@unaffiliated/vesicant] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:04 < mgodinez> i like feminists...bein' heterosexual and all :)
16:04 < kirjatoukka> …
16:04  * KaiseRIP raises pitchfork
16:04 -!- LambdaHex [~xander@unaffiliated/vesicant] has joined ##feminist
16:04 < syzombiegy> he extended ban list is obviously not needed
16:04 < syzombiegy> the*
16:04 <+graveyar> tomaw: what are we supposed to do with people like mgodinez?
16:04 < goodwill> mgodinez: trolling he?
16:04 < mgodinez> what i do?
16:04 < syzombiegy> That's an every day occurrence
16:05 < syzombiegy> hourly even
16:05 < mgodinez> i appreciate women.
16:05 <+epi> mgodinez: fuck off
16:05 < goodwill> mgodinez: for once you started with a lewd gesture
16:05 < mgodinez> in bed, out of bed...doesn't realyly matter.
16:05 <+KaiseRIP> we have to tolerate it cuz freedom of speech
16:05 < goodwill> mgodinez: gtfo
16:05 <+epi> tomaw: hey
16:05 < topdownjimmy> :eagleascii:
16:05 <+epi> look
16:05 < mgodinez> i'm a man...i have testicles.
16:05 < mgodinez> it's nature :/
16:05 <+KaiseRIP> no-one cares
16:05 <+epi> this is why we have the policies we do
16:05 < syzombiegy> They care if it's "misandry" though
16:05 <+epi> shit like this
16:06 <+KaiseRIP> and having testicles doesnt automatically equal male though
16:06 <+epi> that happens all the fucking time
16:06 <+KaiseRIP> jus sayin
16:06 <+graveyar> tomaw: there's a troll in here right now mocking us as sex objects. what are we supposed to do about it???
16:06 < mgodinez> so...age sex location anyone?
16:06 < goodwill> hmmm
16:06 < syzombiegy> tomaw    I forced joined myself in case you're having some kind of issues
16:06 <+OffensiveUser> [17:05:37] <mgodinez> it's nature :/ # naturalistic fallacy
16:06 < syzombiegy> We're having issues now
16:06 <+graveyar> tomaw: are you going to kline him??
16:06 < mgodinez> i like women!
16:06 <+OffensiveUser> if you believe nature is the shit get off the internet and go live in a tree
16:06 <+graveyar> tomaw: don't you think he is "discriminating based on sex"???
16:06 <+gifti> can't we kick/ban anymore?
16:06 < goodwill> mgodinez: thats fine ... just do that somewhere else
16:07 <+KaiseRIP> i put him on ignore but i'd be a hell lot more comfortable if he weren't here
16:07 < syzombiegy> gifti: The ban list is full because tomaw removed the +L
16:07 < mgodinez> :(
16:07 < syzombiegy> gifti: We would have to remove over 100+ bans
16:07 < mgodinez> i love you all :)
16:07 -!- mgodinez [~mgodzilla@2601:8:8500:1027:20a:95ff:fe8c:2430] has left ##feminist []
16:07 <+graveyar> tomaw: is this the kind of environment freenode is proud to host?
16:07 <+gifti> that's unfortunate
16:07 < viriditas> wtf
16:08 <+duckasaurus> tomaw: So what I'm getting here is, men and their ability to troll women are ultimately more important than a safe space for women to exist without the trolling?
16:08 <+KaiseRIP> women, transpeople, queer people, anything that's not white male cis and straight <.<
16:09 < kirjatoukka> it seems like if tomaw's going to remove +L then he should also do the work of removing the old bans that he thinks are unnecessary.  it's hardly fair for him to make that decision and offload the work onto someone else.
16:09 <+epi> tomaw: anything?
16:10 <+KaiseRIP> *crickets*
16:10 < goodwill> well tomaw is in England ... probably going to take a bit to respond
16:10 <+KaiseRIP> that's what you get for declaring independence you damn colonials
16:10 < kirjatoukka> i'm also in england, goodwill
16:10 <+duckasaurus> I'd *like* to be in England.
16:11 < viriditas> im in england~
16:11 <+KaiseRIP> i wouldn't mind england too
16:11 <+KaiseRIP> there are other countries i'd rather live more tho
16:11 <+duckasaurus> Got a friend there I haven't seen since 2007.
16:11 -!- slothcough [~slothcoug@dhcp-108-168-53-218.cable.user.start.ca] has quit [Quit: slothcough]
16:12 < syzombiegy> tomaw: Soooooo basically no conclusion about any of this?  Just remove the extended ban list and maintain that misandry is a serious issue and we need to be monitored for it?
16:12 -!- Private_Uli is now known as Spoopi_Uli
16:12 < tworkin> i have to say as a man the freakout over misandry monday is incredibly childish. we can always go to ##feminist-theory or create ##feminist-men if we want to talk. misandry is a fiction like "reverse racism". i've seen lots real abuse on this server go uncontested // tomaw
16:12 < milly_tanz> syzombiegy, that's the reason Freenode staff told for this? seriously? O.O
16:13 <+KaiseRIP> apparently
16:13 < kirjatoukka> tworkin: completely agreed.  like i said earlier, there are thousands of other channels on freenode that are mostly men-only, what's the problem with this one day a week?
16:13 <+OffensiveUser> reverse racism, misandry and reverse murder are all real issues that need to be addressed
16:13 < syzombiegy> milly_tanz: yes, they think misandry is real. it all started because of misandry mondays
16:13 < syzombiegy> milly_tanz: something that none of the regular male users of ##feminist have an issue with
16:13 <+gifti> what is reverse murder?
16:13 <+OffensiveUser> along with cis and heterophobia
16:13 <+duckasaurus> Given the number of channels, maybe we should be honored to have this much attention.
16:13 <+epi> gifti: necromancy
16:13 <+epi> it's illegal in most nations
16:13 < tworkin> gifti: ghosts haunting you from beyond the grave, perhaps
16:13 <+OffensiveUser> murder only reverse
16:13 <+gifti> birth?
16:14 <+OffensiveUser> if you every performed cpr ur a reverse murderer
16:14 <+epi> see also: medical professionals
16:14 <+KaiseRIP> creating life
16:14 <+KaiseRIP> so you know
16:14 < goodwill> is not like denying suicide would be murder in reverse?
16:14 <+gifti> haha
16:14 <+KaiseRIP> if you're pregnant
16:14 <+KaiseRIP> you can go to jail
16:14 < syzombiegy> milly_tanz: https://privatepaste.com/19a0daf5cd
16:14 <@AUTOMATRON> Title: privatepaste.com :: Paste ID 19a0daf5cd (at privatepaste.com)
16:14 <+KaiseRIP> for reverse murder
16:14 <+gifti> lol
16:14 <+KaiseRIP> the person that got you pregnant tho
16:14 <+KaiseRIP> is innocent
16:14 <+KaiseRIP> cuz something something innocent standbier /s
16:14 <+OffensiveUser> this is a serious thing
16:15 < syzombiegy> milly_tanz: This is the e-mail which started the whole thing https://www.privatepaste.com/545d114cff
16:15 <@AUTOMATRON> Title: www.privatepaste.com :: Paste ID 545d114cff (at www.privatepaste.com)
16:15 < syzombiegy> From a user who said men can't help raping women because biology
16:15 < syzombiegy> We banned him and so he went to staff about misandry
16:15 <+KaiseRIP> what the fuck
16:16 <+epi> ikr
16:17 < kirjatoukka> i notice he didn't actually object to "misandry monday" when he was actually here, he just latched onto it after he was banned as something to kick up a fuss about
16:17 <+KaiseRIP> okay
16:17 <+KaiseRIP> okay
16:17 <+KaiseRIP> look
16:17 < kirjatoukka> and the freenode staff have swallowed it whole
16:17 <+KaiseRIP> 1.
16:18 < tomaw> From what I saw of that it was handled quite sanely and the wording in the topic changed, wasn't it? I wasn't directly involved in any of it.
16:18 <+KaiseRIP> rape has no justification possible. quit trying it
16:18 <+KaiseRIP> 2. saying that men are "biologically predisposed" to raping is much more offensive to men than any supposed "misandry"
16:18 < tomaw> Aye, I don't think anyone can come up with an argument for rape.
16:18 < goodwill> tomaw: any thoughts on having +L back :) ?
16:19 < goodwill> tomaw: any particular concerns on it?
16:19 -!- yukko [~yukko@unaffiliated/yukko] has joined ##feminist
16:19 -!- edwardk [~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk] has joined ##feminist
16:20 < syzombiegy> tworkin, kirjatoukka, goodwill, booit: you're all guys who have been here for some time. are you discriminated against by misandry in this channel?
16:20 < viriditas> what in gods name is that email about
16:20 < goodwill> tomaw: seems like cleaning up the banlist is exhausting given the trolls that are attracted by the discussions and folks here
16:20 < tworkin> im tempted to reply sarcastically because its ridiculous question but no, not one bit
16:20 < kirjatoukka> syzombiegy: definitely.  Sometimes on a Monday I have very important opinions and I have to share them elsewhere. >:(
16:20 < tomaw> goodwill: There's tons of bans in there that could be removed. A few of the known troublemakers could be moved to akicks so they'll be re-instated by services if they rejoin.
16:21 < kirjatoukka> tomaw: it seems unfair of you to remove the +L and make others do the work of cleaning up the banlist.
16:21 < tomaw> it's sometimes tempting to just go with "sod it, autiting it will take time, let's clear them all"
16:21 < tomaw> kirjatoukka: it would've needed doing at some point anyway, +L doesn't allow an infinite list
16:21 < booit> tomaw: of course, you didnt remove the ban due to concerns over the orderliness of oru banlist
16:21 < milly_tanz> syzombiegy, misandry is not discrimination, the criticism of male gender roles frees men from being oppressed by them
16:22 < octophore> tbh men who have legitimate reasons for wanting to be here ought to a) be fine with not sharing their opinions one day a week and b) elect not to share their opinions most of the time anyway
16:22 < kirjatoukka> tomaw: perhaps, but right now it needs doing, hundreds all at once, before any trolls can be banned.
16:22 < kirjatoukka> which has already become a problem.
16:22 < CGML> If it becomes a good time to bring up alternate hosting (by someone that knows the needs and troll magnetism of this channel), let me know and I'll bring it up.
16:22 < kirjatoukka> if +L remained then it could be done piecemeal.
16:22 < octophore> like any non closed feminist space
16:22 < booit> syzombiegy: no, and to suggest that its discriminatoryy or exclusionary is an attack on women's spaces and antifeminist
16:22 < kirjatoukka> octophore: absolutely.
16:23 < booit> tomaw: err not the ban, the mode
16:23 < goodwill> syzombiegy: to answer your question ... I do not feel have enough information on misandry as a concept to really answer you ... think of me as a learning toddler ... I can like barely lift my head ... so for now I just listen
16:23 -!- edwardk [~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk] has left ##feminist ["Leaving..."]
16:24 < syzombiegy> "as that removed my ability to monitor the extended ban list usage I have remove that mode from the channel"  <--- Doesn't seem to indicate that removing the +L had anything with it not being needed any longer
16:24 < milly_tanz> tomaw, there are so many channels that are - not by definition but in fact due to the behaviour and topics there - male spaces, do you seriously think it is a good idea how you decided to treat one of the few channels that aren't this way? It is like those people on parties where there is a room exclusively for females: "Why is there no male room?" ... since there always is, pretty much everywhere else :(
16:24 < booit> attacks on feminists as misandrous have existed since the early suffragetes and so has feminist appropriation and subversion of this
16:25 < kirjatoukka> booit: oh yeah, i recall some satirical flyer about the evils of votes for women...
16:26 < goodwill> kirjatoukka: that flyer would have been fun to read if I could believe people like that do not exist now
16:26 -!- yukko [~yukko@unaffiliated/yukko] has left ##feminist []
16:27 < kirjatoukka> goodwill: I find it alternately amusing and disheartening that these attitudes have literally been around for centuries.
16:27 < goodwill> yeah ... *sighs* ...
16:27 <+KaiseRIP> its pretty sickening
16:27 <+KaiseRIP> :\
16:27 < kirjatoukka> (another example: during the english civil war in the 17th century, a group of women presented a list of grievances to parliament and were told, literally, to get back in the kitchen. -_-)
16:28 < syzombiegy> The selective replying to queries is rather frustrating...
16:28 <+KaiseRIP> ._.
16:28 <+KaiseRIP> wow
16:28 < syzombiegy> Many good questions have been raised and they have all been ignored.
16:28 <+duckasaurus> agreed with syzombiegy.
16:28 -!- scarya [~nyux@unaffiliated/terra-and-luna] has joined ##feminist
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16:28 -!- cow_2001 [~un@unaffiliated/wabisabi] has joined ##feminist
16:29 <+KaiseRIP> kirjatoukka there's also the example of one of my favorite people in history
16:29 <+KaiseRIP> joan of arc :<
16:29 -!- Ed1Ross [~Thunderbi@81.27.214.2] has quit [Quit: Every day is la wafflé day!]
16:29 <+KaiseRIP> all dem king's advisors plotting against her
16:29 < syzombiegy> We're expected to remove over 100 bans and add them to the akick list overnight because staff couldn't monitor the extended ban list, but now the reasoning is that it's no longer needed despite many people complaining about the amount of trolls that are received daily.
16:29 < goodwill> tomaw: It is a fair request to clean up the banlist occasionally but fwiw, I op few other channels and I saw more trolls in here in couple of days that I have in months in those channels ... so its just a higher limit that is required here I think to prevent strain, which I think as op you can relate to
16:32 < syzombiegy> It's like reverse day or something.  The channel is being monitored for "misandry" but its abilities to deal with misogynists is impaired and staff refuse to help with that.
16:32 < Alan> This may have already been discussed, but if you have a massive troll problem, wouldn't something like what #freenode used to do (I believe) make more sense - +m and auto-voicing people after they've been around for a certain amount of time?  Most trolls will give up after 10 minutes of no response because nobody can see what they're saying...
16:33 < Alan> save your ban list for the persistent trolls?
16:34 < cow_2001> we have the same problem in #wrongplanet. I suggested what alan did but no one listened :(
16:34 < Alan> (it might have been something different, like #defocus)
16:34 < LambdaHex> #wrongplanet only allows registered, iirc. Not that that really helps.
16:35 < Alan> I understand that reactive moderating makes it easier for non-trolls to participate, but if the volume of trolls is really that high maybe you do need a different moderation tool
16:35 < goodwill> syzombiegy: is akick an option as tomaw suggested? (though extra over head)
16:35 < Alan> filtering out non-registered often helps with a lot of things :(
16:35 < syzombiegy> goodwill, Alan: That's possible sure. But it edoesn't address the fact that we have to basically re-work everything over night since the +L was removed for vindicitve reasons without warning
16:35 <+melthecoven> We use voice for other purposes right now, and even if we didn't we don't want to add any extra friction to the pile of friction that is IRC for people to participate. We get new users regularly
16:35 < Alan> (I use /umode +R for the same reason, appearing near the top of nick lists...)
16:36 <+melthecoven> so using +m isnt really an option
16:36 < goodwill> syzombiegy: tomaw said he was not involved in the misandry bit ... so it did not sound like he is here cause of that
16:36 < cow_2001> on the flipside, having only registered users will bar the less tech inclined from participating
16:36 < syzombiegy> Alan: Most of our new users find us through google and are not registered so +r would be a bad idea
16:36 < goodwill> yeah ...
16:37 < Alan> fair enough, I understand that those are practically a "nuclear option"
16:37 < goodwill> its sadness is what it is
16:37 < Alan> so how big is a ban list limit usually?
16:37 < goodwill> 100?
16:37 < tomaw> 100.
16:37 <+melthecoven> Also, using other things instead of the banlist as a banlist because our banlist is being artificially restricted for vindictive reasons is a hack on a hack
16:37 < goodwill> maybe the bot can clean it up?
16:37 < Alan> A lot of channels solve this problem by having IRC bots for creating and auto-removing bans
16:37 < syzombiegy> goodwill: And that's part ofthe problem, we're getting conflicting messages from different staffers.  tomaw says the +L was removed because staff monitors it, but now he's saying it's been removed because it wasn't needed.  What was he monitoring for all those months?  Why remove it overnight and expect us to pick up the pieces?
16:38 < goodwill> syzombiegy: :(
16:38 < Alan> I know at least one channel that usually doesn't give more than a 14-day ban, because people just aren't really that persistent
16:38 < cow_2001> oh but if you have a +v countdown, you might be able to keep the tech noninclined
16:38 < Alan> and then you can save your permabans for the persistent ones
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16:38 < syzombiegy> If it wasn't needed and freenode staff were monitoring the +L list then we wouldn't be having this discussion so obviously that argument is bollocks
16:39 <+melthecoven> Alan: we've had trolls deliberately evade bans 3-15 times in a day, cycling IPs until they were in an entirely new address range
16:39 < Alan> melthecoven: bans don't help with that
16:39 <+melthecoven> Your trolls might not be persistent but ours are
16:39 < Alan> melthecoven: and that's a short-term persistence
16:39 < syzombiegy> No, we've had ones come for months...
16:39 <+melthecoven> we've also had that
16:39 <+melthecoven> We have some that are still trying to come back
16:39 < Alan> yeah, I can understand that, but the fact you have to re-ban them each time pretty much shows how ineffective bans are for persistent trolls
16:40 < Alan> sort of solving a different problem, somewhat
16:40 < syzombiegy> If you deal with a channel focused on feminism, you're basically troll bait and deal with the likes of 4chan regularly
16:40 < Alan> well that's also true for anything that's big enough to have a counter-culture
16:41 < Alan> not to say it's not worse here, I imagine it is
16:41 <+melthecoven> Alan: We are hit alternately with trolls that come in 20 at a time and start flooding swastikas, trolls that come back every day for months on end, and often both at once. The banlist needs to have free space on it to deal with either of these happening at any given moment
16:41 < LambdaHex> melthecoven: Another channel I moderate had this problem, we wrote a bot to set a moving +l of ~1-2 above the current channel limit every few minutes
16:42 < LambdaHex> uh, channel user count.
16:42 < Alan> melthecoven: which is why I'm suggesting one technological solution is to relegate handling of non-persistent trolls to a method that keeps your banlist a bit emptier over the long term
16:42 < goodwill> we can probably update the current bot to do some of that?
16:42 < Alan> LambdaHex: I've seen that before too
16:42 < cow_2001> you could link to a captcha
16:42 <+epi> how about
16:42 < syzombiegy> It would be great if freenode staff would weigh in on the numerous questions already posed
16:42 < LambdaHex> You still get flooded, but a lot slower because they can't mass join all at once. :3
16:42 < milly_tanz> Alan, you know what's worse? Being called things like feminazi on other channels on a rather regular basis without anyone caring that much, but here cis males make a big deal about discrimination
16:43 <+epi> how about
16:43 <+epi> cow_2001: Alan, LambdaHex: you respect that we've been doing this for years now and need a solution that won't take weeks to implement and won't leave us more vulnerable to trolls than previously
16:43 < Alan> milly_tanz: isn't that unrelated to my line of discussion?
16:43 <+melthecoven> Alan: we can't rely on a bot for that, we don't have the resources to configure and maintain it. Automatron can handle some of it, but there have been periods of month where we haven't had a bot
16:43 <+melthecoven> and that's likely to happen again
16:44 <+epi> and won't exclude users from the channel we actually want here
16:44 <+epi> we do actually, y'know, want a community of people here
16:44 < Alan> it'd be nice if trolls didn't troll
16:44 <+epi> not just people willing to jump through arbitrary hoops
16:44 < tomaw> Does http://freenode.net/eir.shtml look useful?
16:44 <@AUTOMATRON> Title: freenode: eir (at freenode.net)
16:44 < Alan> epi: yeah, that's fair enough - hence accepting the dismissal of the +m idea
16:44 < goodwill> meltheapparition: what resources do you need for the bot to be more of help? coding? hosting
16:45 <+GorillaNightmare> If you need bot help, I can also help
16:45 <+GorillaNightmare> Or hosting, for that matter
16:45 < syzombiegy> <kirjatoukka> tomaw: it seems unfair of you to remove the +L and make others do the work of cleaning up the banlist.
16:45 < milly_tanz> Alan, your suggestions come in place because people complained about this channel, you felt the need to monitor it closely because "anti-discrimination-policies" and took some privileges the channel had - so I would not consider it as unrelated
16:45 <+gifti> writing a bot would be so much fun
16:45 < LambdaHex> You can just hot in amazon cloud services, micro instances are free for a year.
16:46 <+melthecoven> LambdaHex: great that covers us for a year and then ????
16:46 <+GorillaNightmare> I have extra server space
16:46 < syzombiegy> milly_tanz: If he were monitoring it closely, then the +L wouldn't have been removed overnight because "it's no longer needed"
16:46 < Alan> you can also host on heroku, I have a bot that runs there already
16:46 <+GorillaNightmare> I'm happy to donate it
16:46 < Alan> for free, forever
16:46 <+melthecoven> The point is
16:46 <+melthecoven> that's not the issue
16:46 < syzombiegy> ^
16:46 < booit> tomaw: considered gracing us with a response to the numerous questions?
16:46 <+epi> stop
16:46 <+epi> ffs stop
16:48 < Alan> milly_tanz: I took what? who are you mistaking me for?
16:48 -!- thetinyspoopycat [617acded@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.97.122.205.237] has joined ##feminist
16:48 <+melthecoven> the issue is that you are requiring us to take extra measures with extra technology because you can't imagine that we could possibly get enough trolls to fill up what's left of the banlist after the space taken up by users who have been banned for other reasons and the trolls who use a consistent user account
16:48 <+melthecoven> and/or because you cant "monitor" us
16:48 <+epi> your solutions, though well intentioned, are ignorant of our situation and of our own resources
16:48 < Alan> I'm not staff or anything closely related, but I seem to be getting assumed as such?
16:48  * LambdaHex has nothing to do with freenode
16:48 <+melthecoven> depending on who you ask
16:48 <+epi> we already have server instances, bots, etc
16:48 <+epi> a lot of us in fact work in IT
16:48 < cow_2001> epi: that's the problem we had ya
16:48 < milly_tanz> Alan, sorry, not a native speaker, you meant freenode staff and if you are not, do not feel meant ^^"
16:49 < Alan> milly_tanz: ok, thanks for the clarification
16:49 <+melthecoven> managing a bot requires human resources beyond hosting space
16:49 < Alan> epi: that's fair enough, I'm just thinking pragmatically if freenode staff want to dig in their heels
16:49 <+melthecoven> including energy and time
16:49 <+melthecoven> not just expertise
16:49 < _spanner_> the usual approach in this sort of situation is to grant freenode staff access to set and remove bans and then they can help out when you're under heavy troll attack
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16:50 < Alan> epi: obviously the desired approach is "please can freenode stop preventing us from moderating our channel effectively"
16:50 -!- thetinypallascat [617acded@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.97.122.205.237] has joined ##feminist
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16:51 <+melthecoven> _spanner_: it isn't *just* trolls. We attract a lot of other people who for various reasons do not belong here and who need to be banned, that list grows over times and can't be easily trimmed like the trolls can. The longer that list gets the less we have to work with
16:51 -!- Kassandry [~kassandry@c-50-186-4-10.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##feminist
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16:53 <+melthecoven> the extended banlist lets us clean up the trolls less frequently than once a day which was becoming necessary because of the size of the attacks and the length of the list. At some point you can no longer be effective at stemming a troll invasion because of the size of the regular banlist
16:53 < syzombiegy> <tomaw> as [being banned from the channel] removed my ability to monitor the extended ban list usage I have remove that mode from the channel
16:53 < syzombiegy> <tomaw> morgue-ankh: channels with +L generally are monitored by staff due to the issue they have that require it. This channel elected to remove and ban all staff.
16:53 < syzombiegy> <tomaw> Looking at the ban list now it doesn't appear that +L is required any more. The ban list contains lots of old bans that could probably be removed.
16:53 < syzombiegy>
16:53 < syzombiegy> If the ban list was not needed, then tomaw would have noticed this the months he spent lurking in the channel instead of the day he's no longer welcome in it.  If the reason for remvoing the extended ban list is because it couldn't be monitored, well he force joined the channel thus allowing himself to monitor it.  None of this makes sense and it all looks like backpeddling.
16:53 < topdownjimmy> syzombiegy: For what it's worth I'm also a man who's been on here for a while (though without speaking up much) and no I don't take the Monday/Sunday thing personally at all. O cam
16:53 < topdownjimmy> *I can't imagine the mindset of a person who would.
16:54 <+melthecoven> and a lot of those "old bans" are not just old IP bans, but people who are still active on IRC and were deliberately removed from this space
16:54 < jzk1> Why'd you ban staff?
16:55 -!- milly_tanz [~pink_anar@unaffiliated/pink-anarchist/x-5996911] has quit [Quit: If I can't dance, it's not my revolution! [Emma Goldman]]
16:55 < booit> topdownjimmy: the person who complained about it being discriminatory was banned for saying that men are biologically predisposed to rape
16:55 <+thetinyspoopycat> jesus fucking christ
16:55 <+melthecoven> jzk1: We were removing all of the non-participating lurkers from the channel. When we removed staff they persistently rejoined and then dragged more staff in. It was the most succinct way to deal with the situation
16:56 < syzombiegy> We were told that we were being monitored for "misandry" which made people not feel able to really speak openly in the channel.
16:56 < syzombiegy> Thus we used /remove
16:56 < topdownjimmy> booit: Yeah pretty abhorrent. I was just answering a question from earlier since my attention was elsewhere.
16:56 < goodwill> syzombiegy: someones on the staff specifically said that?
16:56 < jzk1> Why not just make the channel +i?
16:57 < Alan> Because it's as much of a barrier as +m + auto-voice is, if not worse
16:57 < syzombiegy> goodwill: yes, this is why we're bringing the discussion to the channel instead of getting conflicting messages from different staff members
16:57 -!- milly_tanz [~milly@unaffiliated/pink-anarchist/x-5996911] has joined ##feminist
16:57 <+melthecoven> jzk1: because most of our new users are from google and we dont' want to raise the barrier to entry for legitimate uer
16:57 <+GorillaNightmare> The goal here is to make the channel welcoming and safe for women, and to restrict people who are not conducive to that
16:57 -!- Corvus` [~wolf]@unaffiliated/wolf/x-7838296] has joined ##feminist
16:57 <+melthecoven> IRC is hard enough to use without needing to already be an IRC user to join the channel
16:57 < jzk1> +m/auto-voice still lets people come in and log the place- but if you have a specific way to match those users from google you can setup a +I list
16:58 < jzk1> Like do users from google all use a specific web-chat/gateway cloak?
16:58 <+GorillaNightmare> No
16:58 < syzombiegy> FYI: <jzk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbwTMJroTbI&list=PL3ZQ5CpNulQmczbiAj9iKpZoyAznQJo3C  <--- was banned for this
16:58 < viriditas> why is there pressure to not have a longer banlist
16:58 <@AUTOMATRON> Title: Ray Rice Knocked Out Fiancee - FULL VIDEO - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
16:58 < booit> syzombiegy: i thought it was holocaust denial?
16:58 < jzk1> Longer banlists are a hazard for the IRCd server software
16:58 < booit> thought that may have been someone else
16:58 < viriditas> ok
16:58 <+GorillaNightmare> jzk1: I don't believe that
16:58 < syzombiegy> booit: probably other reasons too
16:58 < syzombiegy> booit: people who are banned keep coming back
16:59 < jzk1> They are, because every join has to traverse the list and it consumes a lot of memory on the servers -- including bandwidth when the network splits
16:59 <+melthecoven> IF WE HAD A BAN LIST WE COULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS SITUATION
16:59 < tworkin> GorillaNightmare: if they grow beyond a few megs there could be timing attacks
16:59 < syzombiegy> <jzk> Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition -Leary
16:59 < jzk1> Staff wants to make sure you aren't setting 10,000 bans to crash the whole network, etc
16:59 < syzombiegy> jzk is basically an anti-feminist
16:59 < jzk1> ?
16:59 <+GorillaNightmare> There's a big difference between 100 and 10,000
16:59 < jzk1> Leary was a huge feminist
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17:01 <+melthecoven> Unlike with most channels, we get a lot of trolls that are also "legitimate" IRC users, the anti-troll tactics that work for channels that are just highly trafficked and get drive-bys don't work for us
17:02 <@locaspocas> lots of very disruptive voices, people that just want 101 level information about feminism and get uppity when they don't get it, people that constantly want to "debate" feminists, etc
17:02 < viriditas> excuse me i prefer to call it debating egalitarians
17:02 < jzk1> Well what is wrong with 101 information? Everyone has to start somewhere
17:02 <+epi> hey tomaw
17:02 <+epi> look
17:03 <+epi> a person we can't ban or deal with
17:03 <+epi> thanks
17:03 <+GorillaNightmare> jzk1: We are not obligated to provide it
17:03 < LambdaHex> jzk1: someone elses time isn't free or yours to demand. >_>
17:03 < erry> epi, have you removed some of your old bans?
17:03 < booit> im sure tomaw will kline them, as he is here to monitor us
17:03 <+KaiseRIP> it's even stated in the channel rules in the website
17:03 <+GorillaNightmare> jzk1: http://feminspire.com/im-not-your-feminist-mommy/
17:03 < jzk1> If you don't distribute 101 information regularly the cause will never be able to grow
17:03 <+zip> good work manbabies
17:03 <+zip> fuck off jzk1
17:03 <+epi> do you think a channel about cryptography is required to give people a full education on cryptography?
17:03 <+epi> &op
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17:03 <+KaiseRIP> the rules clearly state that you shouldn't come here looking for basic insights
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17:04 < Kayla> Wow
17:04 <+GorillaNightmare> Ugh autorejoin
17:04 <+KaiseRIP> holy crap
17:04 <+zip> we need autorekick
17:04 < syzombiegy> <kirjatoukka> it seems like if tomaw's going to remove +L then he should also do the work of removing the old bans that he thinks are unnecessary.  it's hardly fair for him to make that decision and offload the work onto someone else.
17:04 < Alan> The rules also have a clear link to all the 101 information anyway :|
17:04 <+KaiseRIP> yea lol
17:04 <+thetinyspoopycat> i was about to say go read teh fucking rules
17:04 <+KaiseRIP> i mean come on
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17:05 < syzombiegy> erry: <kirjatoukka> it seems like if tomaw's going to remove +L then he should also do the work of removing the old bans that he thinks are unnecessary.  it's hardly fair for him to make that decision and offload the work onto someone else.
17:05 <+zip> fuck offffffff
17:05 <+thetinyspoopycat> jfc
17:05 <+KaiseRIP> if you haven't read the rules you shouldn't even bother coming here asking these questions
17:05 < jzk1> zip: What'd I do?
17:05 < kirjatoukka> syzombiegy: ping ping ping >.>
17:05 < _spanner_> syzombiegy: I suggested allowing freenode staff enough access to clear the ban list a few minutes back and was told that wasn't acceptable
17:05 <+GorillaNightmare> jzk1: We've asked you to leave
17:05 < syzombiegy> kirjatoukka: lol sorry
17:05 < _spanner_> _spanner_: so tomaw specifically *can't* do that, by the decision of the moderators
17:05 < jzk1> GorillaNightmare: Why?
17:05 < kirjatoukka> syzombiegy: s'okay :)
17:05 <+GorillaNightmare> jzk1: Because you're not reading up on 101 stuff
17:05 <+GorillaNightmare> This is _not_ a 101 channel
17:05 < jzk1> I'm not here to ask for 101 stuff
17:05 <+GorillaNightmare> You're asking why we don't do 101 stuff. It's _clearly_ stated.
17:05 < Kayla> so in this channel, debate isn't allowed? or questions?
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17:06 < jzk1> I asked and you stated it... and that's it
17:06 <+GorillaNightmare> Kayla: Debate and questions are welcome. 101 discussions are not
17:06 <@epi> jzk1: fuck off
17:06 <+thetinyspoopycat> LOGICAL debate
17:06 -!- jzk1 was kicked from ##feminist by epi [don't rejoin]
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17:06 <+thetinyspoopycat> not fishing/derailing/loaded questions
17:07 <@epi> debate isn't necessarily welcome either
17:07 < Kayla> I'm new here and I'm just watching this.. it doesn't seem very mature to tell someone to 'fuck off' and repeatedly kicking them for asking questions you don't want to answer.
17:07 <@epi> this isn't attack feminists 24/7
17:07 < tomaw> epi: I added a ban for you there
17:07 <+GorillaNightmare> True point on debates
17:07 < kirjatoukka> what is there to debate?
17:07 <@epi> Kayla: they were previously banned
17:07 <+GorillaNightmare> tomaw: Are we going to have to go through this every time?
17:07 < Kayla> how is creating discussion/debates an attack on feminists?
17:07 <+GorillaNightmare> And hope a staffer is active?
17:07 < booit> tomaw: this happens hourly, i hope you have plenty of time
17:07 <+zip> great, so good to have to go ask a man to help us police the channel
17:07 <+GorillaNightmare> Kayla: Did you read my link?
17:07 < syzombiegy> &rules Kayla
17:07 <@AUTOMATRON> Hey, Kayla, check out the channel's rules: http://freenode-feminists.github.io/
17:08 <@epi> Kayla: they had previously been banned for trolling
17:08 <+zip> couldn't we have had tt or mquin or one of the nice ones
17:08 <@epi> and are not welcome in this channel
17:08 <@epi> i don't care how rude i am to people who rejoin persistently after being asked to leave
17:09 < syzombiegy> By the way, we did remove a few bans and surprise surprise they show up the very day they're removed.
17:09 < syzombiegy> jzk's been k-lined multiple times as well my logs say
17:10 <+thetinyspoopycat> it's no longer discussion when the sole purpose is to question the existence of feminism with the assumptoin it shouldnt exist
17:10 < viriditas> >This specific chat room isn’t here to convert people
17:10 <+thetinyspoopycat> a.k.a. what most ppl claim they're discussing/debating
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17:11 <+zip> basically we're on a hairtrigger here because the number of disingenuous trolls we get is ridiculous
17:11 <+zip> and if we engaged every one of them, the entire channel would be just us saying "no we're not debating whether we should call it equalism" all day every day
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17:11 -!- milly_tanz [~milly@unaffiliated/pink-anarchist/x-5996911] has quit [Quit: If I can't dance, it's not my revolution! [Emma Goldman]]
17:11 <+zip> if we're gonna have freenode staff in here watching us, tomaw, could we at least get a woman
17:12 -!- violet-rpi [~quassel@laptoptina.broker.freenet6.net] has joined ##feminist
17:12 < ether> I'm confused.. are men not welcome in this channel?
17:12 < ether> I don't want to cause a fight.. sorry if this is a contentious question
17:12 < syzombiegy> ether: men are welcome
17:13 <+zip> having someone with the authority to kick us off the entire network here to keep an eye on us, as a feminist channel… and it's a guy
17:13 <+zip> c'mon
17:13 < syzombiegy> I'm not a misandrist, one of my best friend's is a guy~
17:13 < kirjatoukka> i'm male and have been active in this channel for several years. >_>
17:13 < _spanner_> right, because helping with basic IRC administration is obviously what the limited female staff time should be used for
17:13 <+zip> oh I know
17:13 < ether> "having someone with the authority to kick us off the entire network" -- you mean a network oper?
17:13 < _spanner_> forcing harassment complaints to be investigated by men instead
17:14 <+zip> how about letting the channel operaters do that hten
17:14 <+GorillaNightmare> ether: staffer
17:14 < booit> ether: yes, and he's threatened to do so yesterday
17:14 < ether> oh. this sounds complicated
17:15 <+thetinyspoopycat> it sounds like the overreaction of ppl who dont get that women and nb ppl dont have spaces to open talk in real life
17:15 <+thetinyspoopycat> and who dont respect taht.  :}
17:15 <+thetinyspoopycat> wow oops woah haha i meant  :|
17:15 <+thetinyspoopycat> not that.. creepy smiley.
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17:16 < ether> :} looks like someone slipped with their razor and got a mustache on the wrong side :)
17:17 <+graveyar> even better, how about +L and no staff and everybody goes about their day? that'd be nice
17:17 < syzombiegy> You mean like before?
17:17 <+GorillaNightmare> That would be nice
17:17 < syzombiegy> Hmmm, that may just work
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17:17 < kirjatoukka> gosh, turns out everything was just fine before the interference, fancy that.
17:19 < morgue-ankh> what a nice idea
17:19 -!- milly_tanz [~pink_anar@unaffiliated/pink-anarchist/x-5996911] has joined ##feminist
17:19 < tomaw> graveyar: hmm, I have been in this channel ever since I gave you guy +L to handle some spam issue
17:19 < tomaw> it didn't seem to be a problem before
17:21 <+zip> so you were aware of misandry monday all this time but only acted when you got a complaint from someone who'd been banned for coming in here to troll us
17:21 <@locaspocas> troll us with rape apologism no less
17:21 -!- Ed1Ross [~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined ##feminist
17:21 <+graveyar> s/troll us/explain rape to us/
17:22 <+KaiseRIP> wow
17:22 < viriditas> jesus, thats what that person was doing?
17:22 < viriditas> and they had the gall to complain about misandry monday
17:22 <+KaiseRIP> funny that freenode staff is willing to give more heed to a rape apologist .-.
17:23 < syzombiegy> tomaw: If you were in a chnanel for months monitoring the ban list, why did you not realise that the extended ban list wasn't needed only after you were no longer welcome?
17:23 <+zip> weird how men are so sensitive and emotional like that
17:23 <+KaiseRIP> nono were the emotional ones
17:24 < goodwill> zip: tomaw did not handle the complaint, someone else did
17:24 < syzombiegy> Does the staff not talk to each other?  Even when occupying the same channel?
17:24 < goodwill> I think not
17:25 < goodwill> freenode staff is distributed and volunteer based ... so I think coordination is, well, loose
17:25 < tomaw> We do talk a lot and have stuff like internal wikis, pastebins and ticket tracking but it's easy to miss small details
17:25 < syzombiegy> <syzombiegy> tomaw: If you were in a chnanel for months monitoring the ban list, why did you not realise that the extended ban list wasn't needed only after you were no longer welcome?
17:25 <+GorillaNightmare> tomaw: Now that you know, perhaps this could be rectified?
17:26 <+graveyar> freenode really needs to have a better structure for conflicts and grievances so things don't always have to happen in PMs, tomaw
17:27 < tomaw> things happen via email that's centrally stored so that can be used if it's more appropriate
17:27 <+GorillaNightmare> tomaw: Now that you know, perhaps this could be rectified?
17:27 < tomaw> GorillaNightmare: rectified? I'm not sure what you're asking for
17:28 < goodwill> tomaw: I think the +L
17:28 < goodwill> is what is being referred to
17:28 <+graveyar> tomaw: we're asking for +L back. that's our primary emergency right now.
17:28 < goodwill> but maybe I am wrong
17:29 <+GorillaNightmare> Having to go to staffers to ban is not sustainable
17:29 < erry> GorillaNightmare, i haven't seen even an effort to reduce the number of bans
17:29 <+graveyar> tomaw: there's also the larger issue of antagonistic staff meddling and micromanaging, but +L addresses our primary emergency
17:29 <+graveyar> erry: that's because you missed it
17:29 <+GorillaNightmare> erry: The number of existing bans? Or the rate at which we ban?
17:30 < erry> probably both
17:30 <@epi> erry: have you wondered why that might be the case
17:30 < _spanner_> graveyar, epi: hostily towards the one female member of staff in here trying to help doesn't strike me as constructive
17:30 < kirjatoukka> it's weird how many new people are showing up with strong opinions on how to run the channel >.>
17:30 <+graveyar> i'm not being hostile to epi
17:30 <+graveyar> i'm not being hostile to erry either >.>
17:30 <@epi> _spanner_: i'm not being hostile, i'm asking a question
17:31 < goodwill> graveyar: do you have the log from the staff handling of the complaint bit here?
17:31 < syzombiegy> _spanner_: you have never been in this channel and have no idea about context or anything.  Your input isn't helpful.
17:31 <+graveyar> the number of old bans is not anybody's primary emergency. our inability to ban at the present moment is.
17:31 < goodwill> graveyar: someone said there was a part of staff member being here to address the complains
17:31 < syzombiegy> There are plenty of people who have been here for years who have more valuable contributions.
17:31 < syzombiegy> And they're all being ignored oddly
17:31 < syzombiegy> and leaving the channel out of frustration
17:32 <+KaiseRIP> this was supoosed to be a safe place for everyone and now im afraid of getting klisted just by talking at the wrong time
17:32 <+KaiseRIP> im sure im not the only one
17:32 < morgue-ankh> you know what I could really go for right now? the ban list size we had previously
17:33 < morgue-ankh> mmhm that would be so nice
17:33 <@locaspocas> that'd be perfect, yeah.
17:33 <+KaiseRIP> also i'm wondering something
17:33 <+KaiseRIP> why is the size of the banlist such a grievance?
17:33 <+zip> because the number of people who need banned is large?
17:33 <+KaiseRIP> or more specifically
17:33 <@epi> KaiseRIP: honestly, banlist sizes are typically limited because of limitations with ircds
17:34 <+GorillaNightmare> erry, tomaw: I'm a chanop in quite a few other channels. I've never heard so much as concern over the size of existing banlists or the rate at which we ban.
17:34 <+KaiseRIP> i know but like
17:34 <+zip> perhaps we could set +r at least
17:34 <+KaiseRIP> is it common policing banlists like this?
17:34 < morgue-ankh> i would like to see an example of a channel that needs +L more than ##feminist
17:35 < goodwill> KaiseRIP: so I think like 99% of channels here do not attract as many trolls so a +L request is unusual
17:35 < syzombiegy> zip: We would, except quite a few users find this channel via google and aren't IRC savvvy
17:35 < goodwill> so it naturally raises a question of what is different ... I'd say freenode folks are sorta learning here
17:36 <+graveyar> &quote add morgue-ankh "i would like to see an example of a channel that needs +L more than ##feminist"
17:36 <@AUTOMATRON> The operation succeeded.  Quote #20 added.
17:36 -!- djdunn-n7 [~nexus@fl-71-53-131-250.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##feminist
17:36 <+zip> oh oh oh oh I know I know is it that like random men keep wandering in here and getting really pissy that we don't want to immediately pivot to explain feminism 101 to them and won't shut up or stay out if we ask them to go
17:36 <@Ghostship> what with the channel currently stressing out our regulars, who could fucking imagine that sometimes a safe space is needed
17:37 <+graveyar> Ghostship++
17:37 < morgue-ankh> i mean right now the channel is unusable for its basic purpose
17:37 <+KaiseRIP> indeed
17:37 <@Ghostship> several of them have already had to /part the channel
17:37 <@Ghostship> because of your fucking bullshit
17:37 <+graveyar> what large irc network currently does NOT have an open, safe space for feminist women? frenode.
17:37 <@Ghostship> fucking tell me that what we do isn't needed on this network
17:38 <+graveyar> *spends years doing free labor making freenode a better place*
17:38 <+GorillaNightmare> ^^^
17:38 <@Ghostship> this channel is /important/
17:38 < ether> my sarcasm detector is going off the charts
17:38 <@Ghostship> it is important to all of us
17:38 <+graveyar> *gets obstructed and lectured at*
17:38 <@Ghostship> and it is important that we be able to run it as we have
17:38 <+GorillaNightmare> Are we talking to a wall here? The staffers who are here are extremely unresponsive
17:39 <@Ghostship> what reason do they have to give a shit?
17:39 <+KaiseRIP> in other chans if i said i was trans i'd be sure to get bombarded with questions but here i feel safe enough to do so, or would if it weren't for all this crap
17:39 <+KaiseRIP> and i just outted myself to prove a point
17:39 <+KaiseRIP> wooo
17:39 <+KaiseRIP> go me
17:39 < syzombiegy> erry, tomaw: you there?
17:39 <@locaspocas> in other channels I get frequent unsolicited pms in spanish
17:39 < goodwill> GorillaNightmare: no I think tomaw just handles other things ... and it likely hard to response to multiple people
17:39 < erry> syzombiegy, sup?
17:39 <+zip> heck most channels I'm in are male-dominated and they all assume I'm male too
17:39 <+zip> if I say otherwise, moderate chance of being hit on
17:39 <+zip> woo
17:39 <@Ghostship> erry, care to pay attention to this channel?
17:40 <@Ghostship> y'know, the shit we've been saying
17:40 < syzombiegy> erry: Are any of the relevant questions going to be answered or are they going to be ignored?
17:40 <@Ghostship> since you're going to have a presence here
17:40 <+zip> who are you, goodwill
17:40 <+GorillaNightmare> goodwill: I understand staff is busy, but when they do respond, they only respond to the irrelevant questions
17:40 < erry> syzombiegy, we very rarely grant +L. Our advice is to all channels that ask for it - including this one - to first try removing old bans
17:40 < syzombiegy> erry: "tomaw: it seems unfair of you to remove the +L and make others do the work of cleaning up the banlist."
17:40 < erry> syzombiegy, it's part of being a channel operator, all channels ahve to do this
17:40 <@locaspocas> someone had granted +L to this channel before, erry, dunno if you were aware of this
17:40 < erry> tomaw already offered to give you guys eir
17:40 <@Ghostship> erry, so what's changed now?
17:40 <+KaiseRIP> didn't this chan already have +L tho?
17:40 <@locaspocas> it had it up untilv ery recently
17:40 < morgue-ankh> erry, what channels need +L more than ##feminist?
17:40 < erry> so you can manage channel bans automatically
17:40 <@Ghostship> since we already had it?
17:40 < kirjatoukka> erry: so what's the justification for removing it?
17:40 <+melthecoven> erry: We had +L because we needed it and now we have a huge backlog of "old bans"
17:41 < erry> +L was given during a specific spam attack, it's not needed right now
17:41 < kirjatoukka> yes it is.
17:41 < erry> as far as i know anyway
17:41 <@Ghostship> it is.
17:41 < erry> (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
17:41 <+graveyar> erry: it is needed.
17:41 <+GorillaNightmare> Who made that decision, and on what basis?
17:41 < kirjatoukka> it's not not possible to ban any trolls — which there have been several just this afternoon — because +L was removed.
17:41 <@Ghostship> and if we've had a staffer lurking in here for months, why wasn't it removed after whatever attack you're referring to, if that was the reason it was granted?
17:41 < syzombiegy> erry:
17:41 < syzombiegy> <tomaw> as [being banned from the channel] removed my ability to monitor the extended ban list usage I have remove that mode from the channel
17:41 < syzombiegy> <tomaw> morgue-ankh: channels with +L generally are monitored by staff due to the issue they have that require it. This channel elected to remove and ban all staff.
17:41 < syzombiegy> <tomaw> Looking at the ban list now it doesn't appear that +L is required any more. The ban list contains lots of old bans that could probably be removed.
17:41 < syzombiegy> If the ban list was not needed, then tomaw would have noticed this the months he spent lurking in the channel instead of the day he's no longer welcome in it.  If the reason for remvoing the extended ban list is because it couldn't be monitored, well he force joined the channel thus allowing himself to monitor it.  None of this makes sense and it all looks like backpeddling.
17:41 <+melthecoven> It was needed before that spam attack erry, it's not "old bans" we were literally mucking out the banlist every day and all the same trolls would come back as soon as we lifted the bans.
17:41 -!- epi [~epi@unaffiliated/epists] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:42 < kirjatoukka> effectively tomaw has decided the operators have to do several hours of work before trolls can be banned.
17:42 <+graveyar> erry: https://privatepaste.com/19a0daf5cd
17:42 <@AUTOMATRON> Title: privatepaste.com :: Paste ID 19a0daf5cd (at privatepaste.com)
17:42 < goodwill> zip: I just had some experience with freenode, and it was my observation about how they operate
17:42 <+melthecoven> We attract a LOT of negative attention, even if we cleaned out the banlist every hour it wouldn't be enough.
17:43 <@Ghostship> and we need that extra space
17:43 <+melthecoven> because there are quite a few account bans that have to stay permanently
17:43 <@Ghostship> to be ready for massive troll raids
17:43 <+KaiseRIP> this chan had +L before, it obviously meets the criteria...
17:43 -!- epi [~epi@unaffiliated/epists] has joined ##feminist
17:43 -!- mode/##feminist [+v epi] by ChanServ
17:43 <@Ghostship> how is this not obvious?
17:43 <@Ghostship> how can you seriously go "hmm, a feminist channel on irc doesn't seem like it would need an extended  banlist"
17:44 < _spanner_> yep, you keep mansplaining to erry how to run an IRC network
17:44 < _spanner_> totally constructive
17:44 < kirjatoukka> …
17:44 <@locaspocas> I don't think you know what mansplaining means
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