Pastebin launched a little side project called VERYVIRAL.com, check it out ;-) Want more features on Pastebin? Sign Up, it's FREE!
Guest

Untitled

By: ngbmameman on Jul 17th, 2012  |  syntax: None  |  size: 46.82 KB  |  views: 55  |  expires: Never
download  |  raw  |  embed  |  report abuse  |  print
Text below is selected. Please press Ctrl+C to copy to your clipboard. (⌘+C on Mac)
  1. ul 17 18:59:33 <miyako> I have 1 minute till meeting time
  2. Jul 17 19:00:19 <miyako>        I was at work later than normal so I haven't had a chance to finish up the C style guide proposal, but I think we can still get some useful discussion in about it.
  3. Jul 17 19:00:24 *       Suner (~Sun@unaffiliated/suner) has joined #rpcdesktop
  4. Jul 17 19:00:34 *       ArexBawrin (~chatzilla@97.103.19.131) has joined #rpcdesktop
  5. Jul 17 19:00:43 <FRodrigues>    no problem
  6. Jul 17 19:00:47 <ArexBawrin>    hey everyone
  7. Jul 17 19:00:53 <FRodrigues>    hi
  8. Jul 17 19:00:58 <centigrade233> hello
  9. Jul 17 19:01:06 <miyako>        *** The 2nd Desktop Group Meeting is starting now.  Topics: Coding Style Guide; Documentation; Requirements; Anything else anyone wants to bring up ***
  10. Jul 17 19:01:24 <Filter_>       https://manual.cs50.net/Style_Guide
  11. Jul 17 19:01:28 <ArrowBot>      Title: Style Guide - CS50 Manual (at manual.cs50.net)
  12. Jul 17 19:01:28 <thearrowflies> remember to not post >10 lines in under 20s or you will be kickbanned
  13. Jul 17 19:03:01 <miyako>        Okay, I'll get this kicked off.  The first thing that is up for discussion is the topic of defining coding style guidelines.  What should they be? How strictly should they be enforced?  How much should be left up to user preference?  Other thoughts?
  14. Jul 17 19:03:26 <thearrowflies> I always do if (cond) {
  15. Jul 17 19:03:29 <thearrowflies> :|
  16. Jul 17 19:03:41 <Filter_>       I think we could just follow that guide
  17. Jul 17 19:03:50 <Filter_>       and I think that we should all do the same thing no matter what we decide
  18. Jul 17 19:03:55 <thearrowflies> yeah
  19. Jul 17 19:04:01 <miyako>        I think that we need to find a good balance.  We don't want to be offputting by being excessively beurocratic, but
  20. Jul 17 19:04:06 <FRodrigues>    int main(void) {  }    
  21. Jul 17 19:04:17 <miyako>        I think that having some well defined style guidelines should make things easier for people who are trying to learn the languages
  22. Jul 17 19:04:22 <Accipiter>     Enforcement wise I think it should be pretty firm so the each others code is easier to read
  23. Jul 17 19:04:27 <thearrowflies> the functuions section looks a bit weird
  24. Jul 17 19:04:31 <thearrowflies> does everyone do that?
  25. Jul 17 19:04:47 <TheDuceCat>    i don't like the two line thing
  26. Jul 17 19:04:51 <TheDuceCat>    that is really weird
  27. Jul 17 19:04:52 <Filter_>       no its something he (the person that wrote it) does so its easier to search for functions in an editor
  28. Jul 17 19:04:53 <Accipiter>     I never do that
  29. Jul 17 19:04:56 <FRodrigues>    neither I
  30. Jul 17 19:04:58 <TheDuceCat>    the yellow box is good
  31. Jul 17 19:04:59 *       Fast_Absorbing (~chatzilla@host-92-24-12-185.static.as13285.net) has joined #rpcdesktop
  32. Jul 17 19:05:01 <thearrowflies> ok
  33. Jul 17 19:05:08 <Accipiter>     I do int main(void) {
  34. Jul 17 19:05:21 <Filter_>       to me either way is fine
  35. Jul 17 19:05:26 <Filter_>       its all the same information
  36. Jul 17 19:05:30 <ArexBawrin>    i think the beginners (like me) should be strictly enforced
  37. Jul 17 19:05:31 <Fast_Absorbing>        Hi there
  38. Jul 17 19:05:38 <miyako>        Okay, let's vote:  Patches that are submitted with incorrect style formatting should be rejected
  39. Jul 17 19:05:43 <miyako>        +1
  40. Jul 17 19:05:48 <Fast_Absorbing>        +1
  41. Jul 17 19:05:49 <Filter_>       +1
  42. Jul 17 19:05:50 <TheDuceCat>    +1
  43. Jul 17 19:05:50 <ArexBawrin>    +1
  44. Jul 17 19:05:51 <Suner> +1
  45. Jul 17 19:05:52 <FRodrigues>    +1
  46. Jul 17 19:05:52 <thearrowflies> +1
  47. Jul 17 19:05:59 <bimo>  Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
  48. Jul 17 19:06:04 <bimo>  EUREKA
  49. Jul 17 19:06:10 <Filter_>       lol
  50. Jul 17 19:06:36 <TheDuceCat>    is anyone not in the trello?
  51. Jul 17 19:06:40 <Fast_Absorbing>        i'm not
  52. Jul 17 19:06:41 <Accipiter>     yes
  53. Jul 17 19:06:42 <centigrade233> me
  54. Jul 17 19:06:47 <bimo>  Reading reading reading some stuff and finnally have it working
  55. Jul 17 19:06:48 *       calzone21 (63ec3162@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.236.49.98) has joined #rpcdesktop
  56. Jul 17 19:06:50 <ArexBawrin>    im not i will be in a minute
  57. Jul 17 19:06:52 *       timg (~timg@pool-72-64-215-90.tampfl.fios.verizon.net) has joined #rpcdesktop
  58. Jul 17 19:06:53 *       ChanServ gives channel operator status to timg
  59. Jul 17 19:06:59 <Suner> trello?
  60. Jul 17 19:07:01 <TheDuceCat>    if you're not in the trello organization pm me your email
  61. Jul 17 19:07:07 <TheDuceCat>    it's a project management app
  62. Jul 17 19:07:21 <miyako>        Okay, next vote:  Anyone who is interested can create a proposal for a style guide and submit it for review/comments on the subreddit, and we can have a final vote on Friday for the style guide?
  63. Jul 17 19:07:28 <ArexBawrin>    i just accepted the invite im in
  64. Jul 17 19:07:36 <thearrowflies> Yeah
  65. Jul 17 19:07:37 <miyako>        +1
  66. Jul 17 19:07:41 <thearrowflies> +!
  67. Jul 17 19:07:43 <thearrowflies> 1
  68. Jul 17 19:07:50 <Accipiter>     +1
  69. Jul 17 19:08:10 <Filter_>       +1
  70. Jul 17 19:08:13 <Fast_Absorbing>        +1, sounds good
  71. Jul 17 19:08:14 <ArexBawrin>    +1
  72. Jul 17 19:08:15 <Filter_>       definitely a good idea
  73. Jul 17 19:08:18 <FRodrigues>    +1
  74. Jul 17 19:08:27 <TheDuceCat>    +1
  75. Jul 17 19:08:46 <miyako>        Okay, I'll create a post on the subreddit, and we can keep submissions in that thread so we don't choke out other posts on the sub
  76. Jul 17 19:08:58 *       apollocre (~apollocre@c-76-26-191-104.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) has joined #rpcdesktop
  77. Jul 17 19:09:03 <Filter_>       cool
  78. Jul 17 19:09:03 <centigrade233> erm, how do you send pms again?
  79. Jul 17 19:09:13 <Filter_>       type /msg name [message]
  80. Jul 17 19:09:17 <timg>  centigrade233:  /msg
  81. Jul 17 19:09:18 <miyako>        centigrade233: /msg <name> [message]
  82. Jul 17 19:09:21 <centigrade233> thanks
  83. Jul 17 19:09:41 <bimo>  you can use tab for the names
  84. Jul 17 19:09:45 <Filter_>       ya
  85. Jul 17 19:09:49 <Filter_>       good feature
  86. Jul 17 19:09:55 <miyako>        okay, anything else anyone wants to bring up on the subject of coding style before we move on to the topic of documentation?
  87. Jul 17 19:10:32 <Suner> I don't agree with overly strict styling
  88. Jul 17 19:10:43 <miyako>        this would be a good opportunity to talk about style related things that you think should go into the final style guide before people start working on drafts
  89. Jul 17 19:11:10 <miyako>        Suner: do you disagree with being overly strict on enforcement, or just on having the rules being overly specific?
  90. Jul 17 19:11:31 <thearrowflies> how do we feel about commenting out whole functions?
  91. Jul 17 19:11:31 <Suner> I think that ultimately when it comes to style, the defining guidelines should be the code itself
  92. Jul 17 19:11:40 <bimo>  I'm in trello now
  93. Jul 17 19:11:43 <Filter_>       what does that mean though
  94. Jul 17 19:11:47 <Filter_>       the code itself
  95. Jul 17 19:12:08 <miyako>        thearrowflies: I strongly feel that commented out code should never be commited.  That's what git history is for.
  96. Jul 17 19:12:17 <thearrowflies> ok
  97. Jul 17 19:12:27 <Suner> for example, some people would be okay with not using braces when you have a single line control structure (e.g. if (cond) statement; )
  98. Jul 17 19:12:44 <Suner> and others not, and this is one of those areas I'd say, are overly strict
  99. Jul 17 19:12:50 <Filter_>       thats a corner case lol
  100. Jul 17 19:13:11 <Suner> and that it would make more sense if you have one line that follows one rule, and you're adding another line, you should follow the previous
  101. Jul 17 19:13:18 <TheDuceCat>    i think all control structures should be multi lined
  102. Jul 17 19:13:21 <TheDuceCat>    even if it is one statement
  103. Jul 17 19:13:24 <TheDuceCat>    to keep conformity
  104. Jul 17 19:13:37 <TheDuceCat>    with braces
  105. Jul 17 19:13:42 <TheDuceCat>    that's my opinion
  106. Jul 17 19:13:43 <Fast_Absorbing>        TheDuceCat: But it doesn't always make the code easier to read, indentation looks much nicer
  107. Jul 17 19:13:47 <miyako>        Suner: While typically I would be inclined to agree with you, I think that having a more consistant style might be easier on the less experienced developers
  108. Jul 17 19:13:55 <Fast_Absorbing>        And remains clear about what's going on
  109. Jul 17 19:13:59 <ArexBawrin>    TheDuceCat: agreed
  110. Jul 17 19:14:05 <Filter_>       miyako +1
  111. Jul 17 19:14:19 <Filter_>       what if someone adds a statement to an if control with only 1 line, and no braces, and breaks the code
  112. Jul 17 19:14:23 <Filter_>       and they dont know why
  113. Jul 17 19:14:29 <Filter_>       itll be our fault then
  114. Jul 17 19:14:54 <miyako>        There seems to be a lot of people comming from Python, so omitting the braces anywhere in our code seems like it could be asking for confusion
  115. Jul 17 19:15:11 <Suner> Filter_: if the code is broken it shouldn't be commited
  116. Jul 17 19:15:21 <Accipiter>     I agree with miyako for beginners if their is a bunch of different styles being thrown around it could get confusing.
  117. Jul 17 19:15:34 <TheDuceCat>    ^
  118. Jul 17 19:15:39 <TheDuceCat>    consistency
  119. Jul 17 19:15:44 <FRodrigues>    +1 Accipiter
  120. Jul 17 19:15:52 *       brotherga2_ (~brotherga@151.66.189.38) has joined #rpcdesktop
  121. Jul 17 19:15:56 <Accipiter>     Especially with python people and no {}
  122. Jul 17 19:15:59 <Suner> Welp, I'll cede to consistency
  123. Jul 17 19:16:01 <ArexBawrin>    The cs50 style guide looks fine to me
  124. Jul 17 19:16:10 <TheDuceCat>    some of it is weird
  125. Jul 17 19:16:13 *       Desu (~Desu@c-50-135-49-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #rpcdesktop
  126. Jul 17 19:16:17 <TheDuceCat>    the part with functions as someone pointed out
  127. Jul 17 19:16:27 <FRodrigues>    like the int // main LOL
  128. Jul 17 19:16:34 <Accipiter>     I think some things need to change with the cs50 most is fine though.
  129. Jul 17 19:16:36 <Filter_>       yea some is i just threw it up really quick because miyako didnt have time to write one he said. its just a discussion starter
  130. Jul 17 19:16:39 <miyako>        I've generally had the rule that readability should trump rules lawyering with respect to code style, but we need to be mindful of making the code easy to work with for beginners in this project
  131. Jul 17 19:16:39 <Filter_>       not an end all be all
  132. Jul 17 19:16:44 <TheDuceCat>    should we make our own?
  133. Jul 17 19:16:48 <TheDuceCat>    custom to our likes?
  134. Jul 17 19:16:53 <TheDuceCat>    or would that be worse
  135. Jul 17 19:16:56 <ArexBawrin>    miyako: +1
  136. Jul 17 19:16:58 <TheDuceCat>    with different opinions
  137. Jul 17 19:17:12 <thearrowflies> We should make our own
  138. Jul 17 19:17:20 <TheDuceCat>    if we can all agree :P
  139. Jul 17 19:17:27 *       loocorez (~stefan@208.43.144.32) has left #rpcdesktop
  140. Jul 17 19:17:49 <Accipiter>     Well maybe not all agree but I think we should do our own with a majority rules on votes
  141. Jul 17 19:17:52 <TheDuceCat>    cs50 rules don't have naming guidelines?
  142. Jul 17 19:18:11 <miyako>        I do think we should have separate guidelines for C and C++
  143. Jul 17 19:18:13 <FRodrigues>    its only for c i think
  144. Jul 17 19:18:23 *       brotherga2_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  145. Jul 17 19:18:25 *       DrosophiliaMaxim has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  146. Jul 17 19:18:39 <TheDuceCat>    functions in camelCase
  147. Jul 17 19:18:47 <Accipiter>     miyako +1
  148. Jul 17 19:18:57 <thearrowflies> varnames with underscores?
  149. Jul 17 19:19:06 <FRodrigues>    wait
  150. Jul 17 19:19:07 <TheDuceCat>    i usually use camelCase for those too
  151. Jul 17 19:19:11 <thearrowflies> ahh
  152. Jul 17 19:19:41 <Suner> I could never understand using camelCase for functions and variables
  153. Jul 17 19:19:59 <Filter_>       camelCase is big in java only
  154. Jul 17 19:20:02 <miyako>        I typically use 4 spaces for indentation, underscores for function and variable names, braces on the next line for functions, and braces on the same line for loops and conditionals
  155. Jul 17 19:20:11 <Fast_Absorbing>        I have no problem with camelCase
  156. Jul 17 19:20:19 <Filter_>       miyako +1
  157. Jul 17 19:20:20 <Fast_Absorbing>        miyako, yes, 4 spaces for tab
  158. Jul 17 19:20:26 <Filter_>       4 spaces is catching on everywhere
  159. Jul 17 19:20:27 <TheDuceCat>    i always do brace next line
  160. Jul 17 19:20:28 <miyako>        I'm okay with camel case, but strongly opposed to hungarian notation
  161. Jul 17 19:20:37 <Accipiter>     same as miyako except for the function braces
  162. Jul 17 19:20:44 <Accipiter>     but not that big a deal for me
  163. Jul 17 19:20:47 <miyako>        and I don't have strong feelings about braces being on the same or next line for loops/conditionals
  164. Jul 17 19:21:07 <Filter_>       hungarian notation is ugly
  165. Jul 17 19:21:08 <Filter_>       no like
  166. Jul 17 19:21:10 <TheDuceCat>    yep
  167. Jul 17 19:21:14 <Accipiter>     agreed
  168. Jul 17 19:21:21 <TheDuceCat>    i always do next line braces seems better spaced to me
  169. Jul 17 19:21:40 *       DrosoptiliaMaxim (45d6f796@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.214.247.150) has joined #rpcdesktop
  170. Jul 17 19:21:52 <miyako>        although not strictly style, I think all code should compile without warnings, and with the compilter flags -Wall -Wextra -Werr -pedantic (or the equivilents for whatever compiler you are using) enabled
  171. Jul 17 19:22:14 <Suner> ^
  172. Jul 17 19:22:29 <Accipiter>     +1
  173. Jul 17 19:22:35 <Suner> I find this really important, especially if we'll have beginners
  174. Jul 17 19:22:36 <thearrowflies> +1
  175. Jul 17 19:22:37 <FRodrigues>    +1
  176. Jul 17 19:22:57 <TheDuceCat>    +1
  177. Jul 17 19:22:59 <ArexBawrin>    +1
  178. Jul 17 19:23:32 <miyako>        We should decide on the versions of C and C++ that we'll be using as well
  179. Jul 17 19:24:53 <miyako>        I'm inclined to say C++11 for C++ since VC and GCC both support it pretty well
  180. Jul 17 19:25:10 <TheDuceCat>    well does QT support all types?
  181. Jul 17 19:25:10 <Filter_>       c99
  182. Jul 17 19:25:11 <Filter_>       ?
  183. Jul 17 19:25:12 <TheDuceCat>    version
  184. Jul 17 19:25:16 <Suner> somehwat, VC++ supports some
  185. Jul 17 19:25:31 <TheDuceCat>    can QT support all c++ versions?
  186. Jul 17 19:25:40 <miyako>        TheDuceCat: I'm not sure, I thought so but I haven't researched that- I'll leave that up to you to find out and make a recommendation?
  187. Jul 17 19:25:48 <TheDuceCat>    ok
  188. Jul 17 19:25:52 <Suner> I'd say limit C++11 features to the ones VC++ supports (as GCC also supports them and more)
  189. Jul 17 19:25:59 *       orion__ (~orion@bl22-169-38.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #rpcdesktop
  190. Jul 17 19:26:33 <TheDuceCat>    do we need c++11?
  191. Jul 17 19:26:34 <miyako>        C is trickier, VC doesn't support C99, so we need to decide if we want to go with C89 for VC compatibility, or just use C99 and require that the windows version be built with a reasonable C compiler
  192. Jul 17 19:27:14 <TheDuceCat>    qt doesn't have syntax checking for c++11
  193. Jul 17 19:27:18 <FRodrigues>    i always used c99
  194. Jul 17 19:27:18 <miyako>        TheDuceCat: I don't know, it seems to me that unless there is a reason not to we might as well go with the latest standard, but I'm open to alternate recommendations
  195. Jul 17 19:27:59 <Accipiter>     I think c99, I don't know anything about the differences but it would seem like a good idea to use the latest standard.
  196. Jul 17 19:28:01 <FRodrigues>    i think is better to not use C++2011 because QT
  197. Jul 17 19:28:15 <Accipiter>     Do we have a bunch of people using VC?
  198. Jul 17 19:28:18 <FRodrigues>    c99 i think we can use // for comments
  199. Jul 17 19:28:25 <FRodrigues>    in c89 we cant
  200. Jul 17 19:28:25 <miyako>        personally, most of my development is done with gnu99, and I'm okay with requiring gcc to build the C code, but if anyone things we should go with pure c99 I'm okay with that
  201. Jul 17 19:28:45 <ArexBawrin>    im sorry, is VC visual C? if so, i havent used it
  202. Jul 17 19:28:52 <Suner> I'm okay with C99, mingw is available and decent enough
  203. Jul 17 19:29:05 <miyako>        yeah, VC is Microsofts C compiler, and it's absolutely abysmal
  204. Jul 17 19:29:13 <FRodrigues>    abysmal?
  205. Jul 17 19:29:22 <miyako>        FRodrigues: terrible, horrible, awful
  206. Jul 17 19:29:24 <ArexBawrin>    oh i thought we were referring to the ide
  207. Jul 17 19:29:47 <miyako>        ArexBawrin: nah, you can set up Visual Studio to use GCC or other compilers if you want
  208. Jul 17 19:29:52 *       orion__ (~orion@bl22-169-38.dsl.telepac.pt) has left #rpcdesktop ("Saindo")
  209. Jul 17 19:29:55 <TheDuceCat>    http://pastebin.com/djBywN6D
  210. Jul 17 19:29:57 <ArrowBot>      Title: My Code Conventions - Pastebin.com (at pastebin.com)
  211. Jul 17 19:29:58 <TheDuceCat>    that's my coding style
  212. Jul 17 19:30:03 <TheDuceCat>    it's all opinion obviously
  213. Jul 17 19:30:22 <Suner> 8 space tabs?
  214. Jul 17 19:30:30 *       bimo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  215. Jul 17 19:30:34 <TheDuceCat>    that is pastebin
  216. Jul 17 19:30:37 <TheDuceCat>    i should have just put spaces in
  217. Jul 17 19:30:43 <Accipiter>     i think we were posting to a reddit thread TheDuceCat?
  218. Jul 17 19:31:00 *       SlimTim10 (~SlimTim10@24-52-223-189.cable.teksavvy.com) has left #rpcdesktop ("Leaving")
  219. Jul 17 19:31:01 <miyako>        https://github.com/timskinner/c_monads/blob/master/maybe.c  That's my style, if anyone is curious
  220. Jul 17 19:31:01 <TheDuceCat>    ?
  221. Jul 17 19:31:04 <ArrowBot>      <http://ln-s.net/$TXs> (at github.com)
  222. Jul 17 19:31:21 <miyako>        Accipiter: we're going to post actual draft proposals, but we can discuss ideas for what should go into them here
  223. Jul 17 19:31:32 <Accipiter>     OK
  224. Jul 17 19:32:02 <Filter_>       looks fine]
  225. Jul 17 19:33:15 <Fast_Absorbing>        I definitely prefer 4 space tabs to 8 :S
  226. Jul 17 19:33:23 <TheDuceCat>    that's pastebin's tab size
  227. Jul 17 19:33:27 <TheDuceCat>    i edited it to 4
  228. Jul 17 19:33:31 <Suner> I definitely prefer 2 to 4
  229. Jul 17 19:33:32 *       DrosoptiliaMaxim (45d6f796@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.214.247.150) has left #rpcdesktop
  230. Jul 17 19:33:40 <miyako>        Okay, let's do a quick vote on the C version:  C89 with VC support, C99 with support for GCC, LLVM, and ICC, or Gnu99 support for GCC only
  231. Jul 17 19:33:52 <miyako>        gnu99 > c99 > c89
  232. Jul 17 19:33:59 <Suner> C99
  233. Jul 17 19:34:08 <TheDuceCat>    hmm
  234. Jul 17 19:34:13 <Filter_>       undecided
  235. Jul 17 19:34:16 <TheDuceCat>    what are the advantages of 99 over 89
  236. Jul 17 19:34:32 <Suner> 89 is honestly, outdated
  237. Jul 17 19:34:37 <Accipiter>     idk the difference between C99 and Gnu99
  238. Jul 17 19:34:49 <miyako>        TheDuceCat: Numerous, but it boils down to C99 makes you NOT want to smash your own face in with a hammer when you use it
  239. Jul 17 19:35:18 <miyako>        gnu99 is just C99 with some GCC extensions that make it a bit nicer; most of them are supported by clang and icc, but not all of them
  240. Jul 17 19:35:30 <TheDuceCat>    i guess C99
  241. Jul 17 19:35:37 <TheDuceCat>    i'm no c expert here
  242. Jul 17 19:35:55 <Fast_Absorbing>        I wouldn't know enough about them to vote in this
  243. Jul 17 19:36:00 <miyako>        http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/C-Extensions.html
  244. Jul 17 19:36:01 <ArrowBot>      <http://ln-s.net/9t67> (at gcc.gnu.org)
  245. Jul 17 19:36:07 <Suner> neither am I, all the C I do is embedded work
  246. Jul 17 19:36:09 <ArexBawrin>    Fast_Absorbing: +1
  247. Jul 17 19:36:27 <Suner> either way, I'm a big proponent of portability, so I would say C99
  248. Jul 17 19:36:29 *       smashitup has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  249. Jul 17 19:36:29 <Accipiter>     I don't know enough about them to vote either
  250. Jul 17 19:36:56 <Filter_>       Is the VC support important?
  251. Jul 17 19:37:16 <Fast_Absorbing>        Suner: Me too, I find GCC behaves a bit strangely in Windows under Cygwin
  252. Jul 17 19:37:35 <Filter_>       should we all program in a virtual machine?
  253. Jul 17 19:37:37 <ArexBawrin>    Well this is suppose to be cross-platform (Linux, OSX, and Windows). Do all of the choices fall under these OS's natively?
  254. Jul 17 19:37:38 <miyako>        Filter_: Honestly, given the stat of C support in VC, I think using it is insane
  255. Jul 17 19:37:55 <Filter_>       miyako, id have to vote c99 then
  256. Jul 17 19:37:58 <miyako>        gcc is widely available
  257. Jul 17 19:38:09 <miyako>        mingw is gcc
  258. Jul 17 19:38:11 <Suner> let's not forget people, GCC is available on windows
  259. Jul 17 19:38:25 <ArexBawrin>    Suner: cygwin?
  260. Jul 17 19:38:37 <Suner> ArexBawrin: mingw
  261. Jul 17 19:38:51 <miyako>        ArexBawrin: gcc is available through cygwin, but can be a little flakey, mingw is preferable IMHO
  262. Jul 17 19:39:00 <ArexBawrin>    ah, thank you
  263. Jul 17 19:39:12 <miyako>        http://www.mingw.org/
  264. Jul 17 19:39:13 <ArrowBot>      Title: MinGW | Minimalist GNU for Windows (at www.mingw.org)
  265. Jul 17 19:39:16 <Suner> mingw is the preferred option I'd say
  266. Jul 17 19:39:28 <Suner> I've had good experiences with it,
  267. Jul 17 19:39:44 <miyako>        OS X uses clang by default now, but GCC is still available
  268. Jul 17 19:40:02 <TheDuceCat>    will this matter for end user at all?
  269. Jul 17 19:40:13 <miyako>        TheDuceCat: not for the end user, just for the people contributing
  270. Jul 17 19:40:18 <TheDuceCat>    alright
  271. Jul 17 19:40:47 <TheDuceCat>    How about a vote: C99 and C++03
  272. Jul 17 19:41:02 <miyako>        +1
  273. Jul 17 19:41:03 <FRodrigues>    +1
  274. Jul 17 19:41:08 <Suner> I don't agree with C++03
  275. Jul 17 19:41:12 <thearrowflies> why 03?
  276. Jul 17 19:41:21 <TheDuceCat>    that's the latest non c++11 version, no?
  277. Jul 17 19:41:22 <FRodrigues>    because qt
  278. Jul 17 19:41:42 <FRodrigues>    yes
  279. Jul 17 19:42:02 <thearrowflies> ok
  280. Jul 17 19:42:07 <miyako>        I'd also like to point out that c++11 is new enough that many books people have might not cover it
  281. Jul 17 19:42:30 <Suner> I'd also like to point out that C++11 is backwards compatible
  282. Jul 17 19:42:31 <FRodrigues>    and doenst change anything
  283. Jul 17 19:42:33 <TheDuceCat>    i don't think c++11 has any killer features that we absolutely need
  284. Jul 17 19:42:41 <Suner> I would disagree
  285. Jul 17 19:42:45 <thearrowflies> threading
  286. Jul 17 19:42:51 <thearrowflies> but boost has threading too
  287. Jul 17 19:43:25 <Suner> standard threading, standard smart pointers, lambdas
  288. Jul 17 19:43:34 <miyako>        well, Qt provides it's own implementation of large swaths of the standard library anyway AFAIK
  289. Jul 17 19:43:46 <FRodrigues>    but we are going to use c++ only for the gui
  290. Jul 17 19:44:59 <Filter_>       im more interested in working with the newer sexier tech
  291. Jul 17 19:45:07 <Filter_>       but i could work with either
  292. Jul 17 19:45:20 <thearrowflies> ^ but id rather have function than tech
  293. Jul 17 19:45:27 <FRodrigues>    qt is sexy!
  294. Jul 17 19:45:44 <Filter_>       if qt takes care of everything then we could use the older version since its better covered
  295. Jul 17 19:46:19 <FRodrigues>    and the python version?
  296. Jul 17 19:46:35 <TheDuceCat>    2.7 probably
  297. Jul 17 19:46:43 <centigrade233> +1
  298. Jul 17 19:47:00 <TheDuceCat>    it's very well supported at this point
  299. Jul 17 19:47:02 <Accipiter>     +1 for 2.7
  300. Jul 17 19:47:22 <miyako>        Any particular reason for not going with python 3?
  301. Jul 17 19:47:26 <Suner> honestly, python3
  302. Jul 17 19:47:29 <Suner> 2.7 is old
  303. Jul 17 19:47:34 <Suner> and becoming outdated
  304. Jul 17 19:47:50 <Suner> python3 is what is intended to be used for future applications
  305. Jul 17 19:48:09 <Accipiter>     2.7 is better supported. Although it would really depend on the libraries we use. 2.7 is just what I know.
  306. Jul 17 19:48:52 <TheDuceCat>    There's a few downsides, such as comparatively limited library support and the fact that most current Linux distributions and Macs are still using 2.x as default
  307. Jul 17 19:49:00 <Accipiter>     ^
  308. Jul 17 19:49:14 <Accipiter>     2.7 has a bigger install base
  309. Jul 17 19:49:18 <FRodrigues>    but we can always install python 3
  310. Jul 17 19:49:25 <miyako>        Also, if the web team is using django then they'll be using 2.x since it doesn't support python 3
  311. Jul 17 19:49:27 <ArexBawrin>    i agree 2.7
  312. Jul 17 19:49:38 <timg>  django doesn't support python3? well that's a bummer
  313. Jul 17 19:49:44 <Filter_>       i think we should used whatever the web team is using then
  314. Jul 17 19:49:47 <timg>  and yes, it looks like we are going with django, with no uncertainty
  315. Jul 17 19:49:49 <Suner> I don't know much about python, but is it possible to support 2.7 and 3?
  316. Jul 17 19:49:49 <Fast_Absorbing>        I think 2.7 also, if we are more familiar with it it well be better for a first project
  317. Jul 17 19:50:00 <Accipiter>     Suner: No
  318. Jul 17 19:50:11 <timg>  Go with python 2.x if that is all django supports
  319. Jul 17 19:50:30 <Accipiter>     We should use whatever the web team is using and it seems like that will be 2.7
  320. Jul 17 19:51:08 <ArexBawrin>    i just finished installing qt. what is the difference between qml and qt?
  321. Jul 17 19:51:12 *       tboat (~tboat@unaffiliated/tboat) has joined #rpcdesktop
  322. Jul 17 19:51:12 *       ChanServ gives channel operator status to tboat
  323. Jul 17 19:51:14 <miyako>        okay, vote: C99, Python 2.7, and C++03 for now but we can talk about using C++11 features if we run across something where they would be useful?
  324. Jul 17 19:51:30 <FRodrigues>    yeah
  325. Jul 17 19:51:30 <thearrowflies> +1
  326. Jul 17 19:51:32 <Accipiter>     +1
  327. Jul 17 19:51:33 <FRodrigues>    +1
  328. Jul 17 19:51:33 <miyako>        +1
  329. Jul 17 19:51:38 <Suner> wait
  330. Jul 17 19:51:45 <Filter_>       lol
  331. Jul 17 19:51:47 <Suner> someone explain to me what's the problem with Qt and C++11
  332. Jul 17 19:51:50 *       tboat has quit (Client Quit)
  333. Jul 17 19:52:02 <Fast_Absorbing>        I've got to get going, I'll read the logs tmoz. See you
  334. Jul 17 19:52:06 <Filter_>       later
  335. Jul 17 19:52:07 *       tboat (~tboat@c-76-123-61-25.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #rpcdesktop
  336. Jul 17 19:52:11 <Accipiter>     bye
  337. Jul 17 19:52:18 <Filter_>       i dont think theres a problem? its just that qt gives us the 11 functionality
  338. Jul 17 19:52:24 <Filter_>       without using something that isnt well supported
  339. Jul 17 19:52:28 <Filter_>       but im probably wrong
  340. Jul 17 19:52:34 *       tboat has quit (Changing host)
  341. Jul 17 19:52:34 *       tboat (~tboat@unaffiliated/tboat) has joined #rpcdesktop
  342. Jul 17 19:52:34 *       ChanServ gives channel operator status to tboat
  343. Jul 17 19:52:51 <TheDuceCat>    C++ is pretty much GUI only
  344. Jul 17 19:52:58 <TheDuceCat>    C is the major back end
  345. Jul 17 19:53:00 <thearrowflies> but it cant hurt to use both
  346. Jul 17 19:53:07 <thearrowflies> qt and c++11
  347. Jul 17 19:53:07 *       Fast_Absorbing (~chatzilla@host-92-24-12-185.static.as13285.net) has left #rpcdesktop
  348. Jul 17 19:53:09 <thearrowflies> right?
  349. Jul 17 19:53:10 <miyako>        While you can already use C++0x with older Qt version such as Qt 4.7, Qt 4.8 will come with more support for some of the new C++0x constructs:
  350. Jul 17 19:53:17 <Suner> then there's no reason not to use C++11
  351. Jul 17 19:53:26 <Suner> there is no functional problem
  352. Jul 17 19:53:46 <Suner> it's not like Qt won't compile with a C++11 compiler
  353. Jul 17 19:54:09 <TheDuceCat>    qt creator doesn't work well with c++11 syntax
  354. Jul 17 19:55:02 <miyako>        looks like Qt Creator 2.5 (released May 9) has improved support for C++11
  355. Jul 17 19:55:08 <Suner> that's an IDE problem, not a functional one
  356. Jul 17 19:55:27 <Suner> it will still compile, and work just fine.
  357. Jul 17 19:55:38 <Suner> I just don't agree with limiting ourselves to using old technology
  358. Jul 17 19:55:56 <TheDuceCat>    everything doesn't have to be shiny and new
  359. Jul 17 19:56:51 <miyako>        Honestly, I'm okay with going either way; my personal preference is to go with C++11, but TheDuceCat is heading up that part of the project
  360. Jul 17 19:56:55 <Suner> you're right, but there's no drawbacks to using C++11 other than some poor IDE support (which is getting better anyway)
  361. Jul 17 19:57:09 <miyako>        so I'm going to leave the final decision to him to either mandate or take a vote on
  362. Jul 17 19:57:11 <TheDuceCat>    i'm not opposed to either just trying to weigh the options
  363. Jul 17 19:57:21 <TheDuceCat>    vote is better but not yet
  364. Jul 17 19:57:34 <Filter_>       +1 c++11
  365. Jul 17 19:57:45 <Filter_>       ++ c++11?
  366. Jul 17 19:57:58 <thearrowflies> 11++
  367. Jul 17 19:58:01 <Filter_>       honestly why doesnt python have the ++
  368. Jul 17 19:58:04 <Filter_>       terrible choice
  369. Jul 17 19:58:18 <Suner> C++11 was a much needed upgrade to the language IMHO, and I'm a huge fan of it
  370. Jul 17 19:58:25 <TheDuceCat>    i don't know much about it
  371. Jul 17 19:58:31 <TheDuceCat>    but it's more stuff to learn
  372. Jul 17 19:58:35 <TheDuceCat>    and we have many beginners
  373. Jul 17 19:58:40 <FRodrigues>    i used to program in c++2003
  374. Jul 17 19:58:40 <TheDuceCat>    that know little c++ as it is
  375. Jul 17 19:58:52 <miyako>        IMHO if someone is going to learn C++, they might as well start learning C++11
  376. Jul 17 19:58:56 <thearrowflies> c++11 makes some things easier for beginners
  377. Jul 17 19:58:56 <TheDuceCat>    trying to weigh the options
  378. Jul 17 19:59:07 <miyako>        adoption isn't exactly going slowly, and it does simplify some things quite a bit
  379. Jul 17 19:59:23 <FRodrigues>    im neutral
  380. Jul 17 19:59:30 <TheDuceCat>    VOTE TIME: +1 for C99, C+11/QT, Python 2.7
  381. Jul 17 19:59:30 <TheDuceCat>    +1
  382. Jul 17 19:59:36 <thearrowflies> +1
  383. Jul 17 19:59:37 <Suner> +1
  384. Jul 17 19:59:37 <miyako>        +1
  385. Jul 17 19:59:41 <Accipiter>     +1
  386. Jul 17 20:00:53 <centigrade233> +1
  387. Jul 17 20:01:08 <FRodrigues>    0
  388. Jul 17 20:01:30 <Filter_>       +2
  389. Jul 17 20:01:46 <ArexBawrin>    I guess I gave Filter_ my proxy
  390. Jul 17 20:01:46 <thearrowflies> +abs(-pi)
  391. Jul 17 20:01:51 <miyako>        okay, shall we call that decided and move on to discussing documentation?
  392. Jul 17 20:02:04 <TheDuceCat>    go ahead
  393. Jul 17 20:02:05 <ArexBawrin>    +1
  394. Jul 17 20:02:08 <FRodrigues>    +1
  395. Jul 17 20:02:16 <Filter_>       yea doc is fine now
  396. Jul 17 20:02:19 <Accipiter>     Yeah
  397. Jul 17 20:02:56 <miyako>        *** Topic is Documentation:  What should the documentation requirements be, how will we store/host documentation, should we use auto documentation generation, etc. ***
  398. Jul 17 20:03:44 <miyako>        I have two concerns
  399. Jul 17 20:03:51 <FRodrigues>    we should use monkeys like youtube!
  400. Jul 17 20:04:03 <miyako>        one is that we need to encourage documentation, because we might not have people who are used to documenting their code
  401. Jul 17 20:04:10 <miyako>        the other is that we want to avoid things like:
  402. Jul 17 20:04:13 <TheDuceCat>    this makes some sexy docs
  403. Jul 17 20:04:13 <TheDuceCat>    http://readthedocs.org/
  404. Jul 17 20:04:15 <miyako>        x++; // increment x by one
  405. Jul 17 20:04:16 <ArrowBot>      Title: Home | Read the Docs (at readthedocs.org)
  406. Jul 17 20:04:21 <thearrowflies> At the top of each file we have a desctiption of what the file is. and above each function we have a short desctription of what it does. and single line comments as needed
  407. Jul 17 20:04:40 <Suner> miyako: haha, common occurence in programming classes
  408. Jul 17 20:05:03 <miyako>        I like Doxygen for generating documentation, it's human readable enough, and the generated documentation is easily browsable
  409. Jul 17 20:05:46 <TheDuceCat>    look into http://readthedocs.org/
  410. Jul 17 20:05:47 <ArrowBot>      Title: Home | Read the Docs (at readthedocs.org)
  411. Jul 17 20:05:50 <TheDuceCat>    never used it but it looks nice
  412. Jul 17 20:07:03 <TheDuceCat>    wow c++ has range based for loops
  413. Jul 17 20:07:05 <TheDuceCat>    :D
  414. Jul 17 20:07:12 <Suner> C++11*
  415. Jul 17 20:07:27 <TheDuceCat>    yeah forgot the 11
  416. Jul 17 20:07:34 *       Bradford (~Bradford@108-241-244-170.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #rpcdesktop
  417. Jul 17 20:08:03 <Filter_>       C++ fwt
  418. Jul 17 20:08:07 <Filter_>       ftw
  419. Jul 17 20:08:41 <Accipiter>     I have to leave so I will catch the log later.
  420. Jul 17 20:08:45 <miyako>        I've never used sphinx but I'm fine with it I suppose
  421. Jul 17 20:09:07 *       Accipiter has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  422. Jul 17 20:10:58 <miyako>        Okay, vote:  Use Sphinx for markup, documentation can be hosted on readthedocs
  423. Jul 17 20:11:17 <TheDuceCat>    what is sphinx
  424. Jul 17 20:11:32 <miyako>        TheDuceCat: that's the documentation markup system that readthedocs supports
  425. Jul 17 20:11:38 <TheDuceCat>    sure
  426. Jul 17 20:11:51 <ArexBawrin>    from their website: Sphinx lets you either batch index and search data stored in an SQL database, NoSQL storage, or just files quickly and easily — or index and search data on the fly, working with Sphinx pretty much as with a database server.
  427. Jul 17 20:11:58 *       calzone21 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
  428. Jul 17 20:14:37 *       Justin___ (47e1eccb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.225.236.203) has joined #rpcdesktop
  429. Jul 17 20:15:05 <miyako>        okay, so: Sphinx for auto-generated documentation markup; documentation hosted on readthedocs.org ?
  430. Jul 17 20:15:08 <miyako>        +1
  431. Jul 17 20:15:15 <TheDuceCat>    +10
  432. Jul 17 20:15:15 <thearrowflies> +1
  433. Jul 17 20:15:17 <Suner> +1,
  434. Jul 17 20:15:20 <FRodrigues>    dont know anything :S
  435. Jul 17 20:15:27 <ArexBawrin>    FRodrigues: +1
  436. Jul 17 20:15:29 <Filter_>       pass
  437. Jul 17 20:15:34 <Filter_>       +1
  438. Jul 17 20:15:37 <FRodrigues>    LOL
  439. Jul 17 20:15:42 <Filter_>       i dont know about this side of things
  440. Jul 17 20:15:47 <Suner> I've never used sphinx, but I'm up for learning a new tool
  441. Jul 17 20:15:49 <Filter_>       fine to use whatever we decide on
  442. Jul 17 20:15:56 <miyako>        okay, that's settled.  I think we should make a point of trying to make sure that we don't have too much or too little documentation
  443. Jul 17 20:16:04 <Filter_>       agreed
  444. Jul 17 20:16:11 <Suner> over documentation? that's new.
  445. Jul 17 20:16:19 <FRodrigues>    yes
  446. Jul 17 20:16:20 <Filter_>       it could happen
  447. Jul 17 20:16:22 <Filter_>       somehow
  448. Jul 17 20:16:25 <miyako>        I'm going to try to emphasize file and function level comments, with per-line comments kept to a minimum
  449. Jul 17 20:16:38 <miyako>        Suner: x++; // add one to x
  450. Jul 17 20:16:51 <Suner> code should also be self documenting I'd say
  451. Jul 17 20:16:56 <miyako>        that level of documentation is just noise and inhibits understanding the code IMHO
  452. Jul 17 20:17:01 <Filter_>       if (condition) // if the condition is true then the rest will execute
  453. Jul 17 20:17:25 <Filter_>       what if there is a very cryptic or tricky line
  454. Jul 17 20:17:32 <Filter_>       are you saying no per line allowed at all
  455. Jul 17 20:17:35 <Suner> there shouldn't be
  456. Jul 17 20:17:36 <FRodrigues>    int i; declaring an int variable named i uninitialized
  457. Jul 17 20:17:50 <miyako>        Filter_: I'm not saying no per-line allowed at all, just that they should be kept at a minimum.
  458. Jul 17 20:17:54 <Filter_>       ok
  459. Jul 17 20:17:57 <Suner> it's more or less a guideline, if you're commenting many single lines, you're doing something wrong
  460. Jul 17 20:18:04 <miyako>        If you have a tricky line that needs a comment, first try to re-write that line to not need the comment
  461. Jul 17 20:18:18 *       bimo (54c2cb93@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.194.203.147) has joined #rpcdesktop
  462. Jul 17 20:18:22 <Filter_>       well most of the time the math heavy lines usually get lost on me when i try and read them again
  463. Jul 17 20:18:26 <Filter_>       so i comment those
  464. Jul 17 20:18:36 <Filter_>       if its just logic i let variable names take care of it
  465. Jul 17 20:18:56 <Filter_>       but im ok to learn better ways
  466. Jul 17 20:19:03 <miyako>        Filter_: math heavy lines are generally in the minority anyway though
  467. Jul 17 20:19:17 <Filter_>       yea
  468. Jul 17 20:19:23 <Filter_>       so its not really an issue
  469. Jul 17 20:19:24 <Filter_>       k
  470. Jul 17 20:20:05 <thearrowflies> i think someone got shot or run over outside
  471. Jul 17 20:20:09 <thearrowflies> theres a ton of sirens
  472. Jul 17 20:20:26 <miyako>        thearrowflies: hope nobody is hurt
  473. Jul 17 20:20:30 <FRodrigues>    where you live?
  474. Jul 17 20:20:37 <thearrowflies> how do you know?
  475. Jul 17 20:21:05 <miyako>        ?
  476. Jul 17 20:21:14 <thearrowflies> that no ones hurt
  477. Jul 17 20:21:25 <miyako>        no, I was saying that I hope nobody was hurt
  478. Jul 17 20:21:33 <thearrowflies> oh
  479. Jul 17 20:21:38 <thearrowflies> thought that was nope
  480. Jul 17 20:21:54 <thearrowflies> So are we agreeign on the documentation?
  481. Jul 17 20:21:59 <TheDuceCat>    yep
  482. Jul 17 20:22:01 <miyako>        yeah, I think so
  483. Jul 17 20:22:22 <miyako>        Sort of related to the other things that we'd discussed, I wanted to bring up the idea of having a community standards of conduct
  484. Jul 17 20:22:36 <miyako>        basically just a non-binding set of rules saying something like "be nice, be inclusive, try to help people"
  485. Jul 17 20:22:46 <thearrowflies> yeah
  486. Jul 17 20:22:50 <thearrowflies> dont tell people to rtfm
  487. Jul 17 20:22:55 <FRodrigues>    i think i saw a video about that
  488. Jul 17 20:23:54 <miyako>        I'd like to have a community that eschews the "brogrammer" stereotype and focuses on being polite and helpful to people who want to join the project
  489. Jul 17 20:24:10 <TheDuceCat>    +1
  490. Jul 17 20:24:12 <Suner> +1
  491. Jul 17 20:24:15 <thearrowflies> +1
  492. Jul 17 20:24:21 <TheDuceCat>    i have to go eat dinner i'll be back in a few sorry :(
  493. Jul 17 20:24:33 <FRodrigues>    +1
  494. Jul 17 20:24:33 <miyako>        no problem
  495. Jul 17 20:24:35 *       TheDuceCat is away: Ingeting processed goods.
  496. Jul 17 20:24:35 *       Desu has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  497. Jul 17 20:24:47 *       TheDuceCat is back (gone 00:00:11)
  498. Jul 17 20:24:50 <miyako>        I think we should shoot around some ideas for requirements
  499. Jul 17 20:24:52 *       TheDuceCat is away: Ingesting processed goods. :)
  500. Jul 17 20:25:04 <thearrowflies> requirements for conduct?
  501. Jul 17 20:25:11 <miyako>        no, for the application
  502. Jul 17 20:25:18 <miyako>        like, what features do we want to support
  503. Jul 17 20:25:29 <thearrowflies> ahh
  504. Jul 17 20:25:51 <miyako>        I think we should have a short free-for-all where everyone just lists ideas that they'd like to see happen
  505. Jul 17 20:26:06 <thearrowflies> Do you think its a good idea to talk about features before having a base program set up?
  506. Jul 17 20:26:11 <miyako>        then we can figure out what things are doable now, what things are features we can add to the next version, and what things we don't want to think about yet
  507. Jul 17 20:26:36 <miyako>        thearrowflies: I think it's absolutely necessary to have at least a general idea of where we are going to before we start going there
  508. Jul 17 20:26:37 <FRodrigues>    first is going to be 2d or 3d?
  509. Jul 17 20:26:41 <Filter_>       i just took a course on human computer interaction that stressed mockups and iterative design and user interface etc
  510. Jul 17 20:26:44 <Filter_>       should we be prototyping
  511. Jul 17 20:26:46 <Filter_>       or not
  512. Jul 17 20:27:02 <thearrowflies> ok
  513. Jul 17 20:27:12 <miyako>        Filter_: I think prototypes are a good idea, but we want to know what needs to be done before we can prototype how to do t
  514. Jul 17 20:27:15 <miyako>        *it
  515. Jul 17 20:27:28 <Filter_>       alright
  516. Jul 17 20:27:41 <Filter_>       so are we talking front end or backend right now
  517. Jul 17 20:27:44 <FRodrigues>    first we need to have a general idea of what we want xD
  518. Jul 17 20:27:59 <miyako>        Filter_: I think we should mostly talk about features as though we are users
  519. Jul 17 20:28:01 <miyako>        so, e.g.
  520. Jul 17 20:28:16 <miyako>        "As a user, I want to be able to browse a list of tile sets"
  521. Jul 17 20:28:32 <Filter_>       ah ok
  522. Jul 17 20:28:41 <Filter_>       well i have to say that ive never used a tile editor before
  523. Jul 17 20:28:47 <Filter_>       so im not sure i can input on what it should have
  524. Jul 17 20:28:50 *       bimo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  525. Jul 17 20:28:52 <FRodrigues>    neither i
  526. Jul 17 20:28:57 <ArexBawrin>    nor i lol
  527. Jul 17 20:28:58 <thearrowflies> nor i
  528. Jul 17 20:29:05 <Filter_>       maybe we should all dl one
  529. Jul 17 20:29:06 <miyako>        Filter_: even better, not having any experience means your mind won't be constrained by what others have done
  530. Jul 17 20:29:10 <Suner> what are these maps for?
  531. Jul 17 20:29:18 <Filter_>       miyako, good point
  532. Jul 17 20:29:21 <ArexBawrin>    minecraft i hope
  533. Jul 17 20:29:24 <FRodrigues>    D&D?
  534. Jul 17 20:29:24 <miyako>        but I can give you all an overview of what I had in mind
  535. Jul 17 20:29:30 <Filter_>       yea go ahea
  536. Jul 17 20:29:32 <Suner> never played minecraft
  537. Jul 17 20:29:46 <miyako>        So, think of video games like Diablo, or of table top games like D&D
  538. Jul 17 20:30:05 <miyako>        or even games like Civilization
  539. Jul 17 20:30:18 <FRodrigues>    (i loved to be able to do D&D map in this editor!)
  540. Jul 17 20:30:26 <miyako>        in games like these, you have a map that is made up of sets of tiles
  541. Jul 17 20:30:44 <miyako>        so a tile editor lets you easily make maps by just giving you a grid and letting you place tiles on the grid
  542. Jul 17 20:31:12 <miyako>        A very simple example would be something like you have a bunch of 64x64 images and you just drag them into a bigger image
  543. Jul 17 20:31:28 <miyako>        but a software tile map editor can add additional features on top of this
  544. Jul 17 20:31:32 <Filter_>       could we support 2d platformers as well?
  545. Jul 17 20:31:36 <Filter_>       anything tile based?
  546. Jul 17 20:31:49 <thearrowflies> anything with an isometric view
  547. Jul 17 20:31:51 <thearrowflies> ?
  548. Jul 17 20:31:52 <Filter_>       i could do a layout of a kitchen
  549. Jul 17 20:31:55 <miyako>        Filter_: yeah, it would generally work better for top-down or Isometric games than side-scrollers though
  550. Jul 17 20:32:07 <Filter_>       i see, let me look up isometric
  551. Jul 17 20:32:08 <Suner> I'd like to keep in mind that there are different types of tyle
  552. Jul 17 20:32:14 <thearrowflies> take a look at project zomboid
  553. Jul 17 20:32:18 <thearrowflies> and the map design for it
  554. Jul 17 20:32:31 <miyako>        Suner: that's a good point, would you like to go into that in more detail?
  555. Jul 17 20:33:49 <miyako>        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZxuVY4dQ74  That is a set of tutorials on the Skyrim creation kit, which uses a (very advanced) tileset based map editor
  556. Jul 17 20:33:49 <Suner> well trivially, tiles come in different shapes, e.g. some games have square tiles, vs some that have hex tiles
  557. Jul 17 20:33:50 <ArrowBot>      Title: Skyrim Creation Kit Tutorials - Episode 1: Creating And Adding NPCs - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
  558. Jul 17 20:34:18 <thearrowflies> we could allow people to create a project with different tiles
  559. Jul 17 20:34:43 <ArexBawrin>    miyako homework assignment, go home and play skyrim
  560. Jul 17 20:35:14 <thearrowflies> VOTE: file extension to be .tldr
  561. Jul 17 20:35:16 <thearrowflies> all in favor?
  562. Jul 17 20:35:19 <miyako>        +1
  563. Jul 17 20:35:30 <FRodrigues>    to large didnt read?
  564. Jul 17 20:36:22 *       tboat has quit (Quit: Bye)
  565. Jul 17 20:36:37 <miyako>        "As a user, I would like to be able to adjust the terrain height independently of the tiles"
  566. Jul 17 20:37:04 <thearrowflies> shift click on a tile brings up options of what to do with that specific tile
  567. Jul 17 20:37:09 <thearrowflies> or something like that
  568. Jul 17 20:37:16 <miyako>        "As a user, I would like to be able to have tile graphics randomized from a set, so that adjacent tiles dont always repeat"
  569. Jul 17 20:37:57 <thearrowflies> each 'side' of a tile only matches with another side of another tile, and not another side of itself
  570. Jul 17 20:38:01 <miyako>        "As a user, I would like to easily be able to create tile sets from within the user interface"
  571. Jul 17 20:38:29 <thearrowflies> file -> open folder as tiles
  572. Jul 17 20:38:40 <thearrowflies> of images
  573. Jul 17 20:39:06 <miyako>        "I would like to be able to have a tile consist independently of a background and objects on the tile"
  574. Jul 17 20:39:20 <miyako>        "I would like to be able to place objects on tiles"
  575. Jul 17 20:39:46 <thearrowflies> import (from a compatible format) and place?
  576. Jul 17 20:39:59 <thearrowflies> that one seems more difficult than the others
  577. Jul 17 20:40:45 <miyako>        I think that from an implementation standpoint a tile will need to be more than an image
  578. Jul 17 20:41:14 <thearrowflies> yes
  579. Jul 17 20:41:24 <ArexBawrin>    miyako: what do you mean by that?
  580. Jul 17 20:41:25 <thearrowflies> but the user will only see the image and a few options related to it
  581. Jul 17 20:41:29 <miyako>        for example, say I wanted to make a field that had small rocks strewn about all over it
  582. Jul 17 20:41:54 <miyako>        I don't want to have the same tile just repeated over and over again, because that would look bad
  583. Jul 17 20:42:07 <miyako>        and I don't want to just create a large field of grass and then place a bunch of rocks randomly
  584. Jul 17 20:42:19 <thearrowflies> we could make each tile not connect to itself
  585. Jul 17 20:42:32 <Kennythehitman>        hey thearrowflies , you have the logs for both groups right?
  586. Jul 17 20:42:38 <thearrowflies> unless the user overrides it
  587. Jul 17 20:42:55 *       Filtah (~Filtered@pool-72-91-72-84.tampfl.fios.verizon.net) has joined #rpcdesktop
  588. Jul 17 20:43:05 <miyako>        thearrowflies: I think on the back end what I would like to do is implement some sort of texture synthesis and blending algorithms to generate seamless images that cover a given area
  589. Jul 17 20:43:19 <miyako>        without having to require that the user explicitly start with images that connect in certain ways
  590. Jul 17 20:43:58 <thearrowflies> ok
  591. Jul 17 20:44:13 <miyako>        so for the background you provide "seed" images that are grown and blended together to generate a texture that covers a connected area
  592. Jul 17 20:44:18 <Kennythehitman>        thearrowflies: ?
  593. Jul 17 20:44:24 <thearrowflies> other chan
  594. Jul 17 20:44:28 <miyako>        and then a set of sprite entities that can be randomly placed within the area covered by the tiles
  595. Jul 17 20:44:35 *       Filteerr_ (~Filtered@pool-72-91-72-84.tampfl.fios.verizon.net) has joined #rpcdesktop
  596. Jul 17 20:45:12 *       Filter_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  597. Jul 17 20:45:31 <miyako>        I feel like I'm kind of monopolizing the conversation, anyone else have any thoughts?
  598. Jul 17 20:45:35 <Suner> what about formats?
  599. Jul 17 20:46:01 <Suner> It's all fine and dandy making a map, but practically, how will it be useful? usable?
  600. Jul 17 20:46:02 <TheDuceCat>    back
  601. Jul 17 20:46:05 *       TheDuceCat is back (gone 00:21:12)
  602. Jul 17 20:46:31 <miyako>        Suner: I think that we should be able to export images, probably either an overhead view or an isometric view
  603. Jul 17 20:46:41 <TheDuceCat>    are we discussing features now?
  604. Jul 17 20:46:47 <FRodrigues>    yes
  605. Jul 17 20:46:52 <TheDuceCat>    alright thank you
  606. Jul 17 20:46:56 <miyako>        TheDuceCat: yeah, we are just throwing out some ideas for features that we'd like to see
  607. Jul 17 20:47:09 <Suner> miyako: images? to look at?
  608. Jul 17 20:47:19 *       Filtah has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  609. Jul 17 20:47:41 <ArexBawrin>    I like the idea of exporting to an image. I'm more interested in learning about these blending techniques
  610. Jul 17 20:47:56 <miyako>        Suner: for version 1 I think being able to export images is sufficient; what else did you have in mind?
  611. Jul 17 20:48:18 <Suner> miyako: I'm just trying to understand what the exact goal of the project is all
  612. Jul 17 20:48:50 <thearrowflies> So will there only be 2 views
  613. Jul 17 20:48:50 <Suner> basically ... minecraft isometric edition?
  614. Jul 17 20:48:55 <thearrowflies> isometric and top down?
  615. Jul 17 20:48:59 <miyako>        Suner: eventually I'd like to see the project usable for generating maps for video games, but I think the for the first version being able to generate images that can be printed/viewed is sufficient
  616. Jul 17 20:49:32 <TheDuceCat>    we need to decide on a map file format also
  617. Jul 17 20:49:39 <thearrowflies> .tldr
  618. Jul 17 20:49:41 <ArrowBot>      thearrowflies: What do you really want to ask me?
  619. Jul 17 20:49:50 <TheDuceCat>    lol that's a good name for the format
  620. Jul 17 20:49:55 <TheDuceCat>    but maybe xml based
  621. Jul 17 20:49:58 <TheDuceCat>    json?
  622. Jul 17 20:50:14 <Filteerr_>     json is nice
  623. Jul 17 20:50:25 <TheDuceCat>    something easy for game developers to parse
  624. Jul 17 20:50:56 <thearrowflies> either is fine as long as you dont do what android does
  625. Jul 17 20:51:09 <thearrowflies> and require xml for any ui components
  626. Jul 17 20:51:34 <Suner> json?
  627. Jul 17 20:51:35 <Suner> xml?
  628. Jul 17 20:51:39 <Suner> binary.
  629. Jul 17 20:51:58 <TheDuceCat>    ui components?
  630. Jul 17 20:52:05 <Suner> map format
  631. Jul 17 20:52:07 <thearrowflies> like buttons and such
  632. Jul 17 20:52:08 <miyako>        I would tend to agree that for the saved file format Binary is probably the best option
  633. Jul 17 20:52:23 <thearrowflies> but
  634. Jul 17 20:52:23 <TheDuceCat>    buttons? i'm confused
  635. Jul 17 20:52:30 <thearrowflies> nvm
  636. Jul 17 20:52:30 <miyako>        for the UI I don't know what Qt uses, but I imagine that they store the UI definition in an XML format or something like that
  637. Jul 17 20:52:43 <TheDuceCat>    it's in a .ui file i think
  638. Jul 17 20:53:22 <Suner> I'm not a big Qt fan, so I'm unlikely to fiddle with that area of things
  639. Jul 17 20:55:41 <miyako>        okay, well this meeting is going on 2 hours.  Anyone interested in letting things stew for a couple of days and comming back on Friday for an official meeting where we can list requirements we've come up with, vote on coding style guidelines
  640. Jul 17 20:55:54 <miyako>        and then start to move forward on the next phases of the project?
  641. Jul 17 20:55:58 <thearrowflies> Yeah
  642. Jul 17 20:56:05 <thearrowflies> and if you have any idea put them on the trello
  643. Jul 17 20:56:11 <TheDuceCat>    ^
  644. Jul 17 20:56:18 <TheDuceCat>    i'll make an ideas list
  645. Jul 17 20:56:22 <TheDuceCat>    people can vote for them there and such
  646. Jul 17 20:56:40 <miyako>        sounds good :)
  647. Jul 17 20:56:57 <miyako>        thearrowflies: do you mind making a post on the subreddit with the log of this meeting?
  648. Jul 17 20:57:06 <ArexBawrin>    until then is there any pertinent reading for the beginners as of now as its related to this project?
  649. Jul 17 20:57:07 <thearrowflies> ok
  650. Jul 17 20:57:08 <miyako>        I'll comment on the thread with a tl;dr summary