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- 1[21:59] <SilentVerse> strong tl;dr post yn/
- 01[21:59] <SilentVerse> :)
- [21:59] <Texas> eh
- [21:59] <Texas> started off well
- [21:59] <Texas> deviated from its purpose i think
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> o
- [22:00] <Texas> plus it said cryo loses to queen
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> cryo
- [22:00] <Texas> which is :(
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> does indeed lose to queen lol
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> :p
- [22:00] <Texas> nu-uh
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> we went over this
- [22:00] <Texas> remember we discussed this
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> like yesterday
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> v_v
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> cryo
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> CHECKS nidoqueen
- [22:00] <Texas> and said that most of the time cryo wins
- [22:00] <Texas> lol
- 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> i would never rely on it as a counter tho
- [22:01] <Texas> you kind of said
- [22:01] <Texas> okay offense has no problems
- [22:01] <Texas> balance generally does okay
- [22:01] <Texas> and then ignored the stall side of what they can use to beat it
- [22:01] <Texas> which is somewhat of a misrepresentation
- 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> well i did kinda touch on it
- [22:02] <Texas> and then i took issue to this
- [22:02] <Texas> "Remember, we banned Cresselia because it centralized the metagame around it and made stall far too dominant over offense and balance. Now, Nidoqueen is doing the exact same thing,"
- 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> in the 5th paragraph
- 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> well
- 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> it kinda does lol
- [22:02] <Texas> because i think its fallacious to compre the two when you consider the degrees to which the meta shifted
- 1[22:02] <SilentVerse> true
- 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> but
- [22:02] <Texas> the cress shift was ridiculous
- 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> consider the fact that
- 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> we literally just shifted
- 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> from a stall dominated metagame
- 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> to a metagame dominated by heavy offense
- 01[22:03] <SilentVerse> that is a ridiculously huge shift
- [22:03] <Texas> yes, we went from a meta dominated by offense, brought in cress which changed it to stall, removed cress and reverted to offense
- [22:03] <Texas> im not seeing the problem here
- [22:03] <Texas> because obviously cress was the problem
- 01[22:03] <SilentVerse> yes, but
- 01[22:03] <SilentVerse> see, the reason we went from offense to stall
- [22:03] <Texas> is cause of cress
- 01[22:03] <SilentVerse> was because cresselia marginalized nidoqueen
- [22:04] <Texas> no, its cause cress marginalized everything lol
- 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> i suppose that's true too
- 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> but
- 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> BEFORE bw2
- 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> we were at balance
- 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> then shifted to offense
- 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> and tbh there were really
- 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> not a lot of pokemon that got buffs which would cause that from bw2
- [22:04] <Texas> before bw2 we more stall oriented
- [22:05] <Texas> than balance imo
- 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> nahh
- 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> balance for sure
- 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> stall was only for a time
- [22:05] <Texas> it was mostly stall, defensive balance and heavy offense
- 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> of like a month
- 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> but that was a really good metagame imo
- [22:05] <Texas> not much full balance or bulky offnese
- 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> not just because i like stall
- 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> but because
- [22:05] <Texas> see this is why i have a problem
- [22:05] <Texas> with suspects like this
- 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> there's a very strong balance between all three archetypes
- [22:05] <Texas> people get into ideas
- [22:05] <Texas> of which meta is better
- [22:05] <Texas> and that is 100% opinion based
- 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> no
- [22:05] <Texas> nidoquen is not objectively broken
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> what i'm not saying we should be back to that metagame
- [22:06] <Texas> and should not be banned
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> what i'm saying
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> is that it is indeed objectively broken
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> because of the way it shifts the metagame
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> around it
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> ...just like cresselia
- [22:06] <Texas> being a centralising figure=/=broken
- [22:06] <Texas> would you agree that dragonite was the centralising figure of BW ou?
- [22:06] <Texas> pre bw2
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> being a centralising figure
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> that also unvalidates a team archetype
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> makes it broken
- 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> *invalidates
- [22:06] <Texas> i disagree
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> AND
- [22:07] <Texas> and we've discussed this
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> drastically makes another team archetype
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> dominant
- [22:07] <Texas> and i dont think it invalidates a team type
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> ofc that is an exaggeration
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> stall is "viable"
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> by the lightest extension of the word
- [22:07] <Texas> yes it is and its annoying me :(
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> im sorry ;_;
- [22:07] <Texas> making sweeping generalizations
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> i'm very hyped up atm about this
- [22:07] <Texas> is the fastest way to tick me off
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> because blarajan kept trolling me and this is a very serious matter
- 1[22:07] <SilentVerse> :(
- 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> ok, fine
- [22:08] <Texas> you do understand though what it looks like
- 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen shifts the metagame so that stall is significantly less viable
- 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> better?
- 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> :)
- [22:08] <Texas> this position coming from a primarily stall known player
- [22:08] <Texas> yes that is an accurate and less gnereal statement
- 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> yes of course
- [22:08] <Texas> so i can accept that
- 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> but
- 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> as per the characteristics of a desirable metagame thread
- 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> which is outdated as fuck, but still
- 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> "
- 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other. "
- [22:09] <Texas> I cannot and will not support a ban based on teh Pokmon in question shifting the metagame
- 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> i cannot support having a pokemon in the tier
- [22:09] <Texas> because every single Pokemon has the capability to shift the metagame in some form
- 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> that blatantly
- 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> ignores this characteristic
- 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> yes
- [22:09] <Texas> sv, there is no objective way to classift that statement
- [22:10] <Texas> or to put nidoqueen within these classifications
- 01[22:10] <SilentVerse> i would argue that there is though
- 01[22:10] <SilentVerse> :(
- [22:10] <Texas> this would be a lot faster and simpler
- [22:10] <Texas> if we just picked a definition of broken
- [22:10] <Texas> and stuck to it >_>
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> except
- [22:11] <Texas> maybe i'll search a PR thread or something
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen is legitimately
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> objectively broken imo
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> >.>
- [22:11] <Texas> i dsiagree
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> it's about
- [22:11] <Texas> i know blarajan does too
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> as broken as salamence in dpp ou
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> imo :/
- [22:11] <Texas> i think a lot of people do
- [22:11] <Texas> not comparable
- [22:11] <Texas> nidoqueen has one set
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> incorrect
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen has one set
- 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> with many potential variations
- [22:11] <Texas> salamence had two that contributed to its suspect and banning
- 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> that's like saying cresselia only had one set
- [22:12] <Texas> point being that they arent comparable
- 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> when it had more, but people didn't use them
- [22:12] <Texas> fundamentally
- 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> well, i mean, you could always use
- 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> physical nidoqueen i guess...
- [22:12] <Texas> mence had two suspect worthy sets
- 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> it also smashes gardevoir too :)
- [22:12] <Texas> queen has one with some variation
- [22:13] <Texas> "Why the fuck is everyone so damn ban happy all of a sudden? It seems to me and a few other members I've spoken to that a lot of the community is simply unwilling to accept a lot of the changes from Gen 4 to Gen 5 and to put it bluntly is just trying to make Gen 5 as similar to Gen 4 as possible because that was their comfort zone."
- [22:13] <Texas> "There is definitely a pretty big difference in terms of offensive capabilities when comparing the two metagames and for the most part it seems like a lot of the community is just lazy and wants to play a metagame where they feel comfortable being able to switch from counter to counter for everything."
- [22:13] <Texas> from a thread i just clicked on
- [22:13] <Texas> "It seems we've been moving from banning only that which is broken, only what must be banned to have a balanced metagame, to attempting to ban everything we don't like."
- [22:14] <Texas> ete
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