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  1. 1[21:59] <SilentVerse> strong tl;dr post yn/
  2. 01[21:59] <SilentVerse> :)
  3. [21:59] <Texas> eh
  4. [21:59] <Texas> started off well
  5. [21:59] <Texas> deviated from its purpose i think
  6. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> o
  7. [22:00] <Texas> plus it said cryo loses to queen
  8. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> cryo
  9. [22:00] <Texas> which is :(
  10. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> does indeed lose to queen lol
  11. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> :p
  12. [22:00] <Texas> nu-uh
  13. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> we went over this
  14. [22:00] <Texas> remember we discussed this
  15. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> like yesterday
  16. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> v_v
  17. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> cryo
  18. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> CHECKS nidoqueen
  19. [22:00] <Texas> and said that most of the time cryo wins
  20. [22:00] <Texas> lol
  21. 01[22:00] <SilentVerse> i would never rely on it as a counter tho
  22. [22:01] <Texas> you kind of said
  23. [22:01] <Texas> okay offense has no problems
  24. [22:01] <Texas> balance generally does okay
  25. [22:01] <Texas> and then ignored the stall side of what they can use to beat it
  26. [22:01] <Texas> which is somewhat of a misrepresentation
  27. 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> well i did kinda touch on it
  28. [22:02] <Texas> and then i took issue to this
  29. [22:02] <Texas> "Remember, we banned Cresselia because it centralized the metagame around it and made stall far too dominant over offense and balance. Now, Nidoqueen is doing the exact same thing,"
  30. 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> in the 5th paragraph
  31. 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> well
  32. 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> it kinda does lol
  33. [22:02] <Texas> because i think its fallacious to compre the two when you consider the degrees to which the meta shifted
  34. 1[22:02] <SilentVerse> true
  35. 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> but
  36. [22:02] <Texas> the cress shift was ridiculous
  37. 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> consider the fact that
  38. 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> we literally just shifted
  39. 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> from a stall dominated metagame
  40. 01[22:02] <SilentVerse> to a metagame dominated by heavy offense
  41. 01[22:03] <SilentVerse> that is a ridiculously huge shift
  42. [22:03] <Texas> yes, we went from a meta dominated by offense, brought in cress which changed it to stall, removed cress and reverted to offense
  43. [22:03] <Texas> im not seeing the problem here
  44. [22:03] <Texas> because obviously cress was the problem
  45. 01[22:03] <SilentVerse> yes, but
  46. 01[22:03] <SilentVerse> see, the reason we went from offense to stall
  47. [22:03] <Texas> is cause of cress
  48. 01[22:03] <SilentVerse> was because cresselia marginalized nidoqueen
  49. [22:04] <Texas> no, its cause cress marginalized everything lol
  50. 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> i suppose that's true too
  51. 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> but
  52. 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> BEFORE bw2
  53. 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> we were at balance
  54. 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> then shifted to offense
  55. 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> and tbh there were really
  56. 01[22:04] <SilentVerse> not a lot of pokemon that got buffs which would cause that from bw2
  57. [22:04] <Texas> before bw2 we more stall oriented
  58. [22:05] <Texas> than balance imo
  59. 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> nahh
  60. 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> balance for sure
  61. 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> stall was only for a time
  62. [22:05] <Texas> it was mostly stall, defensive balance and heavy offense
  63. 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> of like a month
  64. 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> but that was a really good metagame imo
  65. [22:05] <Texas> not much full balance or bulky offnese
  66. 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> not just because i like stall
  67. 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> but because
  68. [22:05] <Texas> see this is why i have a problem
  69. [22:05] <Texas> with suspects like this
  70. 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> there's a very strong balance between all three archetypes
  71. [22:05] <Texas> people get into ideas
  72. [22:05] <Texas> of which meta is better
  73. [22:05] <Texas> and that is 100% opinion based
  74. 01[22:05] <SilentVerse> no
  75. [22:05] <Texas> nidoquen is not objectively broken
  76. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> what i'm not saying we should be back to that metagame
  77. [22:06] <Texas> and should not be banned
  78. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> what i'm saying
  79. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> is that it is indeed objectively broken
  80. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> because of the way it shifts the metagame
  81. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> around it
  82. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> ...just like cresselia
  83. [22:06] <Texas> being a centralising figure=/=broken
  84. [22:06] <Texas> would you agree that dragonite was the centralising figure of BW ou?
  85. [22:06] <Texas> pre bw2
  86. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> being a centralising figure
  87. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> that also unvalidates a team archetype
  88. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> makes it broken
  89. 01[22:06] <SilentVerse> *invalidates
  90. [22:06] <Texas> i disagree
  91. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> AND
  92. [22:07] <Texas> and we've discussed this
  93. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> drastically makes another team archetype
  94. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> dominant
  95. [22:07] <Texas> and i dont think it invalidates a team type
  96. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> ofc that is an exaggeration
  97. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> stall is "viable"
  98. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> by the lightest extension of the word
  99. [22:07] <Texas> yes it is and its annoying me :(
  100. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> im sorry ;_;
  101. [22:07] <Texas> making sweeping generalizations
  102. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> i'm very hyped up atm about this
  103. [22:07] <Texas> is the fastest way to tick me off
  104. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> because blarajan kept trolling me and this is a very serious matter
  105. 1[22:07] <SilentVerse> :(
  106. 01[22:07] <SilentVerse> ok, fine
  107. [22:08] <Texas> you do understand though what it looks like
  108. 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen shifts the metagame so that stall is significantly less viable
  109. 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> better?
  110. 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> :)
  111. [22:08] <Texas> this position coming from a primarily stall known player
  112. [22:08] <Texas> yes that is an accurate and less gnereal statement
  113. 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> yes of course
  114. [22:08] <Texas> so i can accept that
  115. 01[22:08] <SilentVerse> but
  116. 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> as per the characteristics of a desirable metagame thread
  117. 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> which is outdated as fuck, but still
  118. 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> "
  119. 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other. "
  120. [22:09] <Texas> I cannot and will not support a ban based on teh Pokmon in question shifting the metagame
  121. 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> i cannot support having a pokemon in the tier
  122. [22:09] <Texas> because every single Pokemon has the capability to shift the metagame in some form
  123. 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> that blatantly
  124. 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> ignores this characteristic
  125. 01[22:09] <SilentVerse> yes
  126. [22:09] <Texas> sv, there is no objective way to classift that statement
  127. [22:10] <Texas> or to put nidoqueen within these classifications
  128. 01[22:10] <SilentVerse> i would argue that there is though
  129. 01[22:10] <SilentVerse> :(
  130. [22:10] <Texas> this would be a lot faster and simpler
  131. [22:10] <Texas> if we just picked a definition of broken
  132. [22:10] <Texas> and stuck to it >_>
  133. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> except
  134. [22:11] <Texas> maybe i'll search a PR thread or something
  135. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen is legitimately
  136. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> objectively broken imo
  137. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> >.>
  138. [22:11] <Texas> i dsiagree
  139. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> it's about
  140. [22:11] <Texas> i know blarajan does too
  141. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> as broken as salamence in dpp ou
  142. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> imo :/
  143. [22:11] <Texas> i think a lot of people do
  144. [22:11] <Texas> not comparable
  145. [22:11] <Texas> nidoqueen has one set
  146. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> incorrect
  147. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen has one set
  148. 01[22:11] <SilentVerse> with many potential variations
  149. [22:11] <Texas> salamence had two that contributed to its suspect and banning
  150. 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> that's like saying cresselia only had one set
  151. [22:12] <Texas> point being that they arent comparable
  152. 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> when it had more, but people didn't use them
  153. [22:12] <Texas> fundamentally
  154. 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> well, i mean, you could always use
  155. 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> physical nidoqueen i guess...
  156. [22:12] <Texas> mence had two suspect worthy sets
  157. 01[22:12] <SilentVerse> it also smashes gardevoir too :)
  158. [22:12] <Texas> queen has one with some variation
  159. [22:13] <Texas> "Why the fuck is everyone so damn ban happy all of a sudden? It seems to me and a few other members I've spoken to that a lot of the community is simply unwilling to accept a lot of the changes from Gen 4 to Gen 5 and to put it bluntly is just trying to make Gen 5 as similar to Gen 4 as possible because that was their comfort zone."
  160. [22:13] <Texas> "There is definitely a pretty big difference in terms of offensive capabilities when comparing the two metagames and for the most part it seems like a lot of the community is just lazy and wants to play a metagame where they feel comfortable being able to switch from counter to counter for everything."
  161. [22:13] <Texas> from a thread i just clicked on
  162. [22:13] <Texas> "It seems we've been moving from banning only that which is broken, only what must be banned to have a balanced metagame, to attempting to ban everything we don't like."
  163. [22:14] <Texas> ete
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