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  1.  
  2. (No Topic)
  3. [12:23:34] andychase ([email protected]) joined the channel
  4. [12:23:34] Topic is http://bitcoin-assets.com || http://log.bitcoin-assets.com || http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com || http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com
  5. [12:23:34] Set by kakobrekla on March 5, 2014 at 11:58:12 AM PST
  6. [12:23:34] Mode is +cgmnpst
  7. [12:24:21] Hasimir (~hfenring@unaffiliated/hasimir) joined the channel
  8. [12:25:49] <assbot> [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19450 @ 0.0007378 = 14.3502 BTC [+] {3}
  9. [12:27:44] DreadKnight (~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight) joined the channel
  10. [12:31:08] <andychase> Hey everyone
  11. [12:31:08] Message(404): Cannot send to channel
  12. [12:32:06] <BingoBoingo> !up andychase
  13. [12:32:08] assbot sets mode +v andychase
  14. [12:32:35] <andychase> Hey BingoBoingo! Copying&Pasting my email now:
  15. [12:32:44] <andychase> I read your article called "Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken" and I was wondering what your thoughts might be on my recent [BIP/Draft] Committee-based BIP Acceptance Process proposal.
  16. [12:32:47] <andychase> Although to be honest I had a hard time understanding fully what you were talking about in regards to the flaws in the BIP process. Was it just that the Core Devs hadn't really talked to the miners or understood what was going on?
  17. [12:32:52] <andychase> -Andy
  18. [12:33:34] <BingoBoingo> https://gist.github.com/andychase/dddb83c294295879308b << This proposal?
  19. [12:33:37] <assbot> [BIP/Draft] Committee-based BIP Acceptance Process [Dev] · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JZNMPO )
  20. [12:33:51] <andychase> Yeah, that's the one
  21. [12:34:18] <BingoBoingo> Honestly it is really too late for further BIPs to really be considered at all
  22. [12:35:19] <andychase> Hm, what do you mean? There's quite a few being considered right now and all the time.
  23. [12:37:02] <BingoBoingo> Sure, but the least controversial one (BIP 66) still created a huge shitshow when it was triggered.
  24. [12:38:55] <mats> how do you define stake anyway
  25. [12:39:00] <andychase> Well BIP66 fixed a consensus fork for miners running 32-Bit and 64-Bit computers, the shitshow happened because miners weren't validating blocks
  26. [12:39:15] <andychase> @mats: For which segment?
  27. [12:40:24] <BingoBoingo> andychase: But the fix in BIP 66 was the least controversial thing in the world and it was a very difficult change because Bitcoin is an actual consensus system.
  28. [12:41:13] <mats> 'stake in the Bitcoin ecosystem' seems written specifically not to mean anything useful
  29. [12:41:14] <BingoBoingo> If the BIP to enforce stricter signature encoding standards nearly failed, how is any other BIP to succeed now?
  30. [12:41:23] <andychase> @mats: For miners it means hashpower
  31. [12:41:33] <andychase> @mats: Users it means userbase
  32. [12:41:42] <andychase> @mats: Merchants it means economic activity
  33. [12:42:05] <assbot> [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14800 @ 0.00072986 = 10.8019 BTC [-] {2}
  34. [12:42:08] <mats> how about: sign an address with 145,830 coins and maybe you actually have a stake
  35. [12:42:24] <andychase> That's "vote by how much money you have"
  36. [12:42:36] <andychase> but for merchants that might work, if they'd be up to reaching into their cold wallets
  37. [12:43:05] <andychase> @bingoboingo: The BIP66 change was easy to "fix", just upgrade your clients and make sure a majority is upgrading before activating
  38. [12:43:15] <asciilifeform> upgrade ahahahahahaha lol
  39. [12:43:22] <asciilifeform> andychase: we piss on the 'core devs' here.
  40. [12:43:29] <asciilifeform> and their idiot client.
  41. [12:44:00] SuchWow (~SuchWow@unaffiliated/suchwow) left IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  42. [12:44:00] <shinohai> That statement caused me to eject beer from my nose ....
  43. [12:44:09] SuchWow (~SuchWow@unaffiliated/suchwow) joined the channel
  44. [12:44:14] <shinohai> "upgrade"
  45. [12:44:20] <mats> how many 'oops' hard forks are we up to now? three?
  46. [12:44:42] <andychase> I think you guys know what I meant :) You can upgrade your btcd client the same way to recieve the BIP66 changes
  47. [12:44:57] <BingoBoingo> mats: Do the several BIP 66 forks all count as one, or do we have to go back and count them all
  48. [12:45:15] <mats> eye of the beholder and all that
  49. [12:45:20] <BingoBoingo> ANd seriously what the fuck is an "upgrade"
  50. [12:45:49] <andychase> raise (something) to a higher standard, in particular improve (equipment or machinery) by adding or replacing components.
  51. [12:45:58] <asciilifeform> andychase: therealbitcoin.org -- ~20kloc and shrinking.
  52. [12:46:36] <andychase> yeah so in your case an upgrade would be replacing components, raising the satoshi client to a higher standard
  53. [12:47:01] <asciilifeform> andychase: this pointedly does not include adding any subcomponent where gavin, hearn, & co had any say in making.
  54. [12:47:43] <BingoBoingo> andychase: http://thebitcoin.foundation/
  55. [12:47:45] <assbot> ..::[ The Bitcoin Foundation ]::.. ... ( http://bit.ly/1JZPY9X )
  56. [12:47:58] <asciilifeform> andychase: see also http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000115.html
  57. [12:48:00] <assbot> [BTC-dev] bip66 resolution criteria (corrected) ... ( http://bit.ly/1JZPZdW )
  58. [12:48:16] <asciilifeform> take them 'upgrades' and stow'em.
  59. [12:48:30] <asciilifeform> direct inquiries as to ~where~ to stow'em, to mircea_popescu et al.
  60. [12:48:41] <asciilifeform> iirc he has some good illustrated diagrams.
  61. [12:49:34] mircea_popescu (~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu) joined the channel
  62. [12:49:43] <shinohai> Speak of teh devil ...
  63. [12:49:45] <andychase> I feel like we've gone a bit off topic a bit. I'd love to hear your opinions on a system for reviewing and indicating full approval on changes to the Bitcoin protocol
  64. [12:49:55] <andychase> currently the system is the core devs decide
  65. [12:50:00] assbot sets mode +v mircea_popescu
  66. [12:50:07] <mats> core devs don't decide anything.
  67. [12:50:12] <mircea_popescu> and how's myfavourite cult this fine morning ?
  68. [12:50:27] <andychase> well for bips, they decide, and other clients like btcd take their bips into consideration
  69. [12:50:57] mius (~mius@unaffiliated/mius) left IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  70. [12:51:17] <andychase> I'd like to take that kind of system and move it up so a community like this one can make their opinion validated as part of the process for improving bitcoin
  71. [12:51:39] <mircea_popescu> you'd what ?
  72. [12:51:42] <shinohai> "make their opinion validated"
  73. [12:52:17] <andychase> Basically make your opinion matter by proving that you aren't sock puppet accounts and are actually unique and valuable memebers of the Bitcoin ecosystem
  74. [12:52:21] <shinohai> I have been so worried all this time that our opinion would never be validated.
  75. [12:52:32] <andychase> opinion matter more*
  76. [12:52:50] <asciilifeform> komyoooonitiiiii111111!
  77. [12:53:00] <shinohai> I think WoT proves we are each unique and valuable members of the community
  78. [12:53:09] asciilifeform maxed dosimeter, off to meatspace for rest of the day
  79. [12:53:54] <andychase> If that's true then great, I'd like to take that form of validation and put it into a formal process that can be used for approving or rejecting changes to Bitcoin
  80. [12:53:54] <mircea_popescu> who are you exactly andychase ?
  81. [12:54:09] <andychase> I'm a freelance software developer from Oregon
  82. [12:54:21] <andychase> also reddit.com/u/tytyty_ on reddit
  83. [12:54:39] <andychase> github.com/andychase
  84. [12:54:46] <shinohai> !gettrust andychase
  85. [12:54:46] <assbot> andychase is not registered in WoT.
  86. [12:54:57] Hasimir (~hfenring@unaffiliated/hasimir) left IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  87. [12:55:04] <shinohai> https://j.ludost.net/blog/archives/2015/09/05/rfc-2631_fips_186-3_and_openssls_implementation_of_dsa_appear_broken_and_possibly_backdoored/index.html
  88. [12:55:06] <assbot> RFC-2631, fips 186-3 and openssl's implementation of DSA
  89. [12:55:19] <mircea_popescu> andychase https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuvPhAuQFD4
  90. [12:55:21] <assbot> Griffin Dunne v Dennis Hopper (Search and Destroy, 1995) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1fJ8J5p )
  91. [12:55:22] <mircea_popescu> !down andychase
  92. [12:55:23] assbot sets mode -v andychase
  93. [12:55:58] <mircea_popescu> and thank you mr scorsese.
  94. [13:11:17] Disconnected
  95.  
  96.  
  97. Now, disconnected, the chat continues in PM with mats:
  98.  
  99.  
  100.  
  101. [13:00:28] <mats> nobody here cares about 'community'. community's full of idiots, decision-making via committee of idiots has predictable results
  102. [13:01:23] <andychase> Well if I'm not mistaken I believe Bitcoin runs (everyone using the same valid longest chain for value)
  103. [13:01:47] <mats> this is how politics works. if you're not in our wot, you don't matter in bitcoin. if you're not in gavin/hearn's wot, you don't contribute code.
  104. [13:02:21] <mats> which would explain why therealbitcoin looks like it does, and theidiotbitcoin has had 3+ hard forks
  105. [13:03:10] <mats> this thing you're doing, where everyone gets to 'vote' and 'make their voices heard' is an artifact of democracy and other idiot thinking
  106. [13:03:37] <mats> the people that matter, that decide what 'consensus' is, don't count votes or listen to dummies
  107. [13:03:46] <mats> too much noise in the signal.
  108. [13:04:22] <andychase> it has been said that democ­racy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time
  109. [13:05:14] <mats> i guess that explains why .ru and .cn are competently run and usg has a massive amount of debt and deficit?
  110. [13:05:43] <mats> repeating trite phrases doesn't convince anybody that democracy works. a committee of morons is the best way to ensure nothing gets done.
  111. [13:06:43] <mats> swallowing 'american exceptionalism' whole is poisonous to a thinking mind
  112. [13:06:47] <andychase> That's interesting, so you would vote against my proposal because of the committee process. I understand that and I have heard other people say the same thing
  113. [13:06:54] <andychase> What kind of process would you suggest?
  114. [13:07:08] <mats> get in the wot and contribute something useful.
  115. [13:07:24] <mats> or, don't, and observe none of your work ever mattering in bitcoin. up to you.
  116. [13:07:51] <mats> because: gavin's project is dead. he hasn't figured it out yet, but its dead.
  117. [13:07:55] <andychase> Thanks for your time! Do you mind if I share this conversation so others can benefit from your thoughts?
  118. [13:08:09] <andychase> Also do you know if the #bitcoin-assets channel allows for sharing?
  119. [13:09:04] <mats> its a publicly logged channel, you do whatever it is you want
  120. [13:09:24] <mats> you have my permission, not that you need it, to disseminate this conversation
  121. [13:10:53] <andychase> Okay cool. Thanks again for talking with me. Let everyone else in the channel know that I really do appreciate what their input and what they are doing
  122. [13:10:57] <andychase> They say the reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
  123. [13:11:01] <andychase> I hope they keep as it
  124. [13:11:04] <andychase> *at
  125. [13:11:17] Disconnected
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