pownaw	Alternatively, I could probably reword this sentence here:
23:19	pownaw	However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost.
23:20	pownaw	to...
23:20	pownaw	However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost, though the possible burn is an annoyance.
23:20	pownaw	_______
23:20	pownaw	This can be reworded of course.
23:21	pownaw	*differently of course
23:21	shrang	hmmmm
23:21	shrang	yeah that's ok
23:21	pownaw	I assume "However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost, though the possible burn is an annoyance." in particular?
23:22	shrang	that's good
23:22	pownaw	Implemented.
23:23	pownaw	 <p>As the physical attackers of the Uber metagame have such destructive potential, bulk investment is mandatory to effectively take them on. Heavy investment in physical bulk is necessary to successfully tank Extreme Killer's ExtremeSpeed. As such, the given EVs and nature ensure maximum physical bulk while still allowing Him to outpace neutral base 90s. Nevertheless, Arceus can be specialized to outspeed certain threats. Most notably, 252 HP /
23:23	pownaw	Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature takes full advantage of His base 120 Speed. By outspeeding most physical attackers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp, Arceus can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp or set up Reflect before they can land an attack. However, by lowering His bulk, Arceus's ability to actually switch in on physical hits is diminished. It also makes Him significantly more vulnerable to faster attacks, most notably ExtremeSpeed.</p>
23:23	pownaw	Thoughts?
23:23	pownaw	The paragraphs are now merged for EV spreads.
23:23	shrang	that's fine
23:23	shrang	although
23:23	shrang	I just noticed
23:24	shrang	the spread is still 16 Spe
23:24	pownaw	I assume you would like 56 instead?
23:24	shrang	let me just check
23:24	shrang	some calcs
23:24	shrang	yes please
23:25	shrang	+2 LO v-create ohkos after SR
23:25	shrang	if it outspeeds
23:26	pownaw	Hmm… I'm okay with that. I also tend to run 56 Spe EVs with Wallceus.
23:27	pownaw	Although we might want to tell the rest of the QC team later.
23:27	pownaw	Implemented.
23:28	shrang	yeah I'm pretty happy with wallceus
23:29	pownaw	So, I assume we can just skip to Bandceus/Choice Band then? Or would you like to go over some more possible changes?
23:29	shrang	yeah it's fine
23:30	pownaw	___________
23:30	pownaw	<p>As befitting His stature, Arceus can utilize a Choice Band set to devastating effect. His value lies not in His ability to revenge threats such as Darkrai, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza with a stronger STAB ExtremeSpeed; it is rather His ability to lure the common checks of Extreme Killer that makes Him so effective.</p>
23:30	pownaw	<p>Utilizing the fact that Arceus is often assumed to be Extreme Killer, Bandceus can Trick a Choice Band to the incoming check, granting an opportunity for another sweeper to press their newfound advantage. As after being Tricked a Choice Band, defensive answers like Skarmory and Lugia are turned into complete liabilities. However, Trick must be used with caution, for one wrong move will lead to the loss of surprise. As such, it is critical that
23:31	pownaw	prior to using Trick, double switching is used to confirm the intended target is actually sent in.</p>
23:31	pownaw	<p>Bandceus's remaining slots are dependent on His intended role. If sweeping potential is desired after His Choice Band has been Tricked, Swords Dance and one additional coverage move allows Him to take on a persona similar to Extreme Killer, albeit limited in coverage. Coverage moves can include Earthquake, which deals with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon, or Shadow Claw, which deals with Ghost-types. If better coverage at the cost of sweeping
23:31	pownaw	potential is desired, both Earthquake and Shadow Claw combined will suffice.</p>
23:31	pownaw	______
23:31	pownaw	Any thoughts?
23:33	shrang	"However, Trick must be used with caution, for one wrong move will lead to the loss of surprise."
23:33	shrang	I know I'm nitpicking here
23:33	shrang	but it's more of the fact that you've lost the ability to cripple a counter if you've tricked choice band onto something else
23:33	shrang	unless you get a choice item back I suppose
23:34	pownaw	Hmm… I was thinking more on the lines of Trick revealing His set, but I guess we could mention your stuff.
23:35	shrang	I guess you could say something like
23:35	shrang	However, Trick must be used with caution, since it is a one-use item
23:35	shrang	one-use move*
23:36	shrang	unless obviously you get something you can cripple something else with
23:38	pownaw	Hmm… perhaps this might work?
23:38	pownaw	<p>Utilizing the fact that Arceus is often assumed to be Extreme Killer, Bandceus can Trick a Choice Band to the incoming check, granting an opportunity for another sweeper to press their newfound advantage. As after being Tricked a Choice Band, defensive answers like Skarmory and Lugia are turned into complete liabilities. However, Trick must be used with caution, for it is generally a one-way street. As such, it is critical that prior to using
23:38	pownaw	Trick, double switching is used to confirm the intended target is actually sent in.</p>
23:39	shrang	yep
23:39	shrang	that's good
23:40	shrang	ok I can tolerate "However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk" in ekiller
23:40	shrang	but there is definitely no need any more in CB
23:40	shrang	since you've already mentioned it
23:41	shrang	"His value lies not in His ability to revenge threats such as Darkrai, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza with a stronger STAB ExtremeSpeed; it is rather His ability to lure the common checks of Extreme Killer that makes Him so effective"
23:41	shrang	I'd think the additional power is still very helpful
23:41	pownaw	Yeah, it is. I'll try rewording.
23:41	shrang	maybe change "His value lies not" to "His value lies not only"
23:42	shrang	and then go
23:42	shrang	"but also His ability to lure" etc etc
23:43	pownaw	His value is not only in His ability to revenge threats such as Darkrai, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza with a stronger STAB ExtremeSpeed, but also His ability to lure the common checks of Extreme Killer.
23:43	pownaw	Any better?
23:43	shrang	yes
23:44	pownaw	Implemented
23:44	pownaw	Anyway, regarding "However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk".
23:45	pownaw	I imagine I mentioned it as (theoretically) someone could skip Extreme Killer and go right to the Choice Band set. This is very unlikely though.
23:47	pownaw	IIRC, a GP member told me that each set is supposed to be read on its own, though I guess it's pretty jarring to read something word for word in a different section.
23:51	shrang	ok
23:51	shrang	I just looked over the rest of the analysis
23:51	shrang	it's all good now
23:51	shrang	in my opinion anyway
23:51	shrang	it would be good to talk it over with the others as well
23:52	pownaw	Good idea.
23:52	pownaw	Also...
23:52	pownaw	[...] With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer. A sturdy defensive backbone can also go a long way towards keeping Him at bay.</p>
23:52	pownaw	Do you think adding "A sturdy defensive backbone can also go a long way towards keeping Him at bay." is necessary?
23:52	pownaw	(This is in the conversation)
23:52	pownaw	http://www.smogon.com/forums/conversations/arceus-analysis.625475/
23:53	pownaw	And I assume this fits the bill?
23:53	pownaw	[...] A physically defensive Giratina-O can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. It also has an immunity to Trick, which is handy against Bandceus. Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, b
23:53	pownaw	will still lose to Fire Blast and Overheat. It also loses to Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants, but will still cripple. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn can prove annoying with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs, but performs best when used as a combination check. If all else fails, faster Pokemon that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but will almost always re
23:53	pownaw	in their loss. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can truly stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to defeat Him.</p>
23:54	pownaw	_____
23:54	pownaw	This in particular -> Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved.
23:54	shrang	that last bit is fine
23:54	shrang	lando-t OHKOes ekiller actually
23:54	shrang	and scizor is a bit more shaky
23:54	shrang	since LO variants will OHKO it with EQ
23:55	shrang	pownaw	Do you think adding "A sturdy defensive backbone can also go a long way towards keeping Him at bay." is necessary?
23:55	pownaw	I'll get some calks.
23:55	pownaw	*calcs
23:55	shrang	I don't think it's particularly necessary
23:55	pownaw	Okay.
23:55	shrang	but I would appreciate it if you put something like "Arceus may seem difficult to fully counter on paper, but it is rather easy to play around it in practice"
23:56	pownaw	I'll think about it.
23:56	pownaw	Anyway, the calks.
23:56	pownaw	*calcs
23:56	pownaw	+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 294-346 (88.82 - 104.53%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
23:57	pownaw	+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 294-346 (88.82 - 104.53%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
23:57	pownaw	+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 175-207 (52.87 - 62.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
23:57	pownaw	56+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 318-376 (73.78 - 87.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
23:57	shrang	yep
23:57	pownaw	252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Superpower vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 398-470 (92.34 - 109.04%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
23:57	pownaw	252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Superpower vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 398-470 (92.34 - 109.04%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
23:58	pownaw	+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 224 HP / 32 Def Landorus-T: 278-329 (74.13 - 87.73%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
23:58	pownaw	___________
23:59	pownaw	Based on these calcs, I assume "Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved" is suitable? I could definitely be more specific, but I'm trying to keep the word count down.
23:59	shrang	why does it keep doing that
23:59	shrang	558 Atk vs 224 Def & 375 HP (80 Base Power): 279 - 328 (74.40% - 87.47%)
23:59	shrang	I get this from cherubi
00:00	pownaw	I'm using Honko's damage calculator. Maybe they differ in damage formula?
00:00	shrang	maybe
00:00	shrang	they shouldn't really though
00:00	shrang	maybe there are rounding issues
00:00	pownaw	Yeah
00:01	pownaw	(wrong smiley)
00:01	pownaw	(I think)
00:01	shrang	I think it's fine
00:01	pownaw	(At least on this client)
00:01	shrang	"perfectly conserved" implies "unharmed"
00:01	shrang	pretty much
00:02	shrang	"Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and OHKO or inflict severe damage with Superpower, respectively"?
00:03	pownaw	Hmm… I think severe damage could possibly imply an OHKO; I could be wrong.
00:03	pownaw	How about "threaten a possible OHKO" ?
00:04	shrang	well
00:04	pownaw	Although this is not strictly true in regards to Scizor.
00:04	shrang	assuming on SR up on both sides
00:04	shrang	lando-t will OHKO
00:04	shrang	and ekiller doesn't
00:04	shrang	scizor can't OHKO
00:04	pownaw	Hmm...
00:05	shrang	I guess in practice that amount of damage would normally ohko ekiller I guess
00:06	pownaw	Does this work?
00:07	pownaw	Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage or possibly OHKO with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved.
00:07	pownaw	252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Superpower vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 398-470 (92.34 - 109.04%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
00:07	pownaw	252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Superpower vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 398-470 (92.34 - 109.04%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
00:07	shrang	yep
00:07	pownaw	Implemented.
00:08	pownaw	Toxic Skarmory falls to last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks or non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts.
00:08	pownaw	You still fine with this? Oh, and did you get my edit?
00:09	pownaw	 EDIT: I just read shrang’s edit and realized my mistake. When I meant “I can get you logs if necessary”, I was actually referring to “actual logs against actual players” (given that these replays are obviously unrealistic like shrang said; they were intended to give a general idea on how Toxic Skarmory can possibly lose) -> sorry about the misunderstanding I created shrang.
00:10	pownaw	I REALLY have to stop doing this
00:10	shrang	it's still there
00:10	pownaw	I think so.
00:11	shrang	I guess you could say "theoretically, skarmory can lose to a perfectly healthy last Pokemon extreme killer, but this never really occurs in practice"
00:11	shrang	but it's very unnecessary
00:12	shrang	or even a mildly healthy ekiller tbh
00:12	shrang	like
00:12	shrang	even if we got it into a situation like the one we got in your log
00:12	shrang	I might have probably started an SD war with that ekiller
00:13	shrang	and threaten to 2hko
00:13	shrang	if he boosted more
00:13	shrang	then when he kills arceus, bring in skarm and stall it out
00:14	pownaw	The opposing EKiller was just placeholder IIRC. It could be any Pokemon really.
00:15	pownaw	Anyway, IIRC, Extreme Killer can take around 20-40% prior damage before taking on Skarmory, which I guess is actually possible.
00:16	pownaw	This specific matchup is very rare (Had it only a few times), but can actually make a difference.
00:16	pownaw	It's very easy to avert though.
00:17	pownaw	(Deal more than 40% to Extreme Killer previously, have more than one Pokemon besides Skarmory, etc. etc.)
00:20	pownaw	How about this?
00:20	pownaw	Toxic Skarmory falls to non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts and possibly even last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks.
00:20	shrang	I still don't like it
00:21	shrang	skarm is generally a completely stop to arceus without fire moves
00:21	shrang	ask the others on this
00:21	pownaw	Sure.
00:22	shrang	it's really situational
00:22	shrang	to the point where it's practically negligible imo
00:22	pownaw	I know -> VERY situtational.
00:23	pownaw	Anyway, I assume I covered your entire GP check now shrang?
00:23	shrang	I think so
00:23	shrang	did we go over the overview?
00:23	pownaw	Oh, no, we didn't.
00:23	pownaw	Anyway, what are your current thoughts?
00:23	shrang	on the overview?
00:24	pownaw	Yeah.
00:24	shrang	"After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in pure, unadulterated awe and wondrous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best Pokemon in the entire game."
00:24	shrang	I'm going to let that slide
00:24	pownaw	Too much hype?
00:24	shrang	since it IS arceus and it deserves some hype
00:24	shrang	then next bit's a bit too much though
00:25	shrang	maybe go straight onto "Whether wiping His creations from the fabric of existence as Extreme Killer or standing as their resolute guardian by virtue of Wallceus, the God of Pokemon knows no bounds."
00:25	shrang	then adding a sentence or two about its flaws
00:25	pownaw	So, I assume you don't want Multitype mentioned?
00:26	shrang	as pointed out in viability thread
00:26	shrang	no need
00:26	shrang	again this is a normal arceus analysis
00:26	pownaw	Yeah, I think I'm going to stick to Arceus-Normal for this analysis; you're right.
00:27	shrang	http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-ubers-viability-ranking-thread-now-taking-write-ups.3473976/page-16#post-4767930
00:27	shrang	that post illustrates some of normal arceus' flaws
00:28	pownaw	I'll think about it.
00:28	shrang	IMO when someone reads the overview, they should know, before reading the rest of the analysis, when and when not to use normal arceus on their team
00:29	pownaw	I'll think about it.
00:30	pownaw	Though just to keep doors open, would a Multitype mention be tolerable?
00:32	shrang	I guess so, but it should carry anything more than the mention that he can use Multitype
00:32	shrang	I see it unnecessary
00:32	shrang	so no to any hype that may be attached to it
00:32	pownaw	Got it.
00:33	pownaw	So basically, "Even then, His purest forme remains seated upon His throne." is problematic in your opinion?
00:34	pownaw	I might exchange that for a "flaw" sentence somewhere.
00:34	shrang	that's the problem that the multitype sentence brings I guess
00:34	pownaw	True.
00:36	pownaw	Anyway, while I think over the overview a bit, what do you think about this sentence?
00:36	pownaw	Should one see Arceus on Team Preview, it is critical to rule out the presence of Extreme Killer before letting any answer be in danger.
00:36	pownaw	IIRC Melee Mewtwo thinks it's unnecessary/hypes Extreme Killer.
00:36	pownaw	Personally, I think it's fine, but maybe that's just me.
00:36	shrang	I think that's fine
00:37	shrang	because you don't know what arceus form it is
00:37	shrang	you don't want to be throwing away your checks willy nilly
00:37	shrang	unless there's a bigger threat around the corner
00:37	shrang	specific to your team
00:39	pownaw	Got it. Also, I assume you're fine with the structure of the first paragraph (Besides your issue with the Skarmory part)? Here's the first paragraph for reference shrang:
00:39	pownaw	 <p>Should one see Arceus on Team Preview, it is critical to rule out the presence of Extreme Killer before letting any answer be in danger. While there is no true counter to Extreme Killer outside of Unaware Quagsire, there are four that can easily deal with Him for the most part: Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Multiscale Lugia. All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death or phaze Him in the scenario that they
00:39	pownaw	weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss. However, even the toughest of checks can fall to the right move or item, albeit in circumstantial situations. Toxic Skarmory falls to last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks or non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts. Faster boosted Life Orb Brick Breaks overpower Wallceus, while last-Pokemon Lum Berry Brick Break variants are problematic should He be running the shaky Will-O-Wisp. Similarly, Giratina bows down to a
00:39	pownaw	boosted Shadow Force, last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, or last-Pokemon Recover variants with Shadow Claw. Reflect and Toxic Lugia is overwhelmed by boosted Life Orb Shadow Claws after Stealth Rock. All of them also have to watch out for the rare Bandceus, that can Trick a crippling Choice Band.</p>
00:39	pownaw	____________
00:44	pownaw	I could probably elaborate on how Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Lugia beat Extreme Killer specifically, but I thought this would keep the word count down nicely:
00:44	pownaw	All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death or phaze Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss.
00:44	pownaw	Thoughts?
00:45	shrang	I think it's good now
00:45	shrang	thanks for that superimp
00:46	shrang	just make sure the others are ok with it
00:46	shrang	and you should be good to go

etc etc