leela issues

Author	Message
   £éè£å-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:35 pm

COOP Admin

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:27 am
Posts: 376
Location: Germany
Where do I start? There is already a topic, but not much replies were made.
I had the hope, players and especially admins would give their opinions. The reason for this new topic is simple: There are some maps which are nearly pure madness now. I could watch, how these maps just empty the server because players just don't have the nerve to play them.

Here is the link to the old topic:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2651

As I posted there, the spawner can harm the balance of the coop server and imo it's just what happened. The gameplay has changed, it's not the same as it was a few years ago.
There are some maps overfilled with monsters and others nearly empty. For good and experienced players it doesn't matter if there are 5 Skaarjs in a room or 15. But for new and unexperienced players it can be hell. It doesn't matter if 1 player is on the server or 8, the monsters are spawned.
There are also some crappy mapfixes I made in the past like snam for example. Played it yesterday and a player said to me: "It's so haaaard!". Yep, and he was absolutly right, the map is to hard. I will fix that map and some others because I simply did crap on them.

I bet you all know the Angloid maps. These maps are everything else than player friendly. I reworked the first one now, TheKeep6. I spent about a week to make this map better playable. Movers work player friendly now and there are inmap teleporters. But to be honest, I really ask myself, what was it good for? The spawner is active for this map, and most of the time this super teleporter is used to rush the map, like all other maps.
I want to let the players know, that it wasn't me who activated the spawner for it. Maybe I'm a bit crazy, but not that much.

What we need, are more opinions. Like Sparky wrote in the other topic, post likes and dislikes. Also we need more participation from the admins, not only Spinach alone.

Just some other 2 Cents



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   £éè£å-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:42 pm

COOP Admin

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:27 am
Posts: 376
Location: Germany
forget my last post
lets face the truth:
Unreal1 is dead



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   rustyScrew
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:43 am
COOP Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:30 pm
Posts: 4
Location: East Coast
£éè£å-(DOG)- wrote:
forget my last post
lets face the truth:
Unreal1 is dead


I am sorry £éè£å but I disagree on that. It is not that it is dead it has just become stale. One can only play the same maps and kill the same monsters so many times. For me it has just become boring because there are lots of little bugs that make the game play very repetitive and more work than fun. (Shoot Skarrj, it dodges left, shoot Skarrj it dodges right), (Use anything but Flak secondary fire on the Mercenary and the shield goes on and then you just wait), (Shoot a Skarrj Trooper guy and their shield goes on and then you just slowly pick away at them till they die). The only weapon to use is the rifle and that's because it has the most ammo, I like to use the Flak but always just run out of ammo for it and just have to go back to the rifle. Every monster dodges the first fire mode so unless you are in their face it's wasted ammo, but being so close you more often (Bio) just kill yourself. So AI just limits the weapons to use for me.

I don't always have to kill monsters to have a good time. I would like it if we could work together more where like in other games someone can give out ammo or health and players dying will have a negative effect making us need to work together not just everyone for themselves.

I don't want a permanent change, but more or less to stretch my legs for a little while from Unreal. If we could change up the server every 3 or 4 or 6 months is not a bad thing. Keep the house just change up the landscaping!



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   TomKatRebel-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:37 am

Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:08 pm
Posts: 15
I agree with Rusty here change can be good - as long as it is not permanent. That's part of what the UT server was about, to try and give players a change from the same old routines and same old maps. I also agree players should work together more, however with the ammo settings as they are and the extra 100 health players are given each map start, I don't ever see this becoming a reality.

As for the spawner, there are settings in there to combat the issues raised, player load balancing is available which when enabled will maintain a maximum of about 5 extra monsters for each player in the server - this is currently disabled. There are also a lot of other settings in there to fix crowding on specific maps, I just do not have the time to configure it all myself.

The real issue for me with the server at the moment is the permament changes that are taking place. In the past maps had the most minor changes made to them, just enough to make the map playable, for example fixing a bad trigger or bsp hole. Of late though I am saddened to say the map fixes have turned into sheer madness, gone are the days of just fixing a broken portion of the map, now we are at the point of redesigning and retexturing maps just for the sake of it, simply because it is not good enough for the person concerned.

To look at another persons hard work (good or bad), disect it, then personally decide it is not good enough, and thefore make changes to it (without prior permission of the original author), is an extremely arrogant and disrespectful attitude to take, 2 qualities the -(DOG)- clan are supposed to be firmly against.

Therefore I urge the map changes stop here and those concerned spend their time creating new maps rather than disrepsecting the work of others.



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   Oldsparky
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:56 am

Site Admin

Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:03 pm
Posts: 1286
Location: Indiana, USA
Well, the Old One should make an entrance here. How many times over the past years since 100 years ago have I heard Unreal is dead?
Indeed it is dead for some. If you think its dead for yourself, then its truly dead. I have seen groups of players come and go over the years as it dies for a group and a new group appears. I have kept interested in Unreal only by an interest in a lot of things besides playing. Number one is the chance to meet new exciting people, people from all walks of life and various occupations and interests. This is probably more about the people than the actual game. There are some great folks on Unreal, with a lot of different goals in life. Its a great chance to learn about the world we live in and the people that inhabit it. The Dog Clan is more than a unreal clan, but a group of people that shared a common interest in a computer game, and became on line friends with friendships that survive long after the game has become less important. If I were to list all the players that have come and gone, it would take hours to type it.

I feel many of the COOP players are missing the boat on the options available in unreal. There are many game types to be enjoyed. The Dm Servers have literaly thousands of maps to explore and learn and tweak your interest. Part of the problem with DM is everyone is in the kill kill mode these days. In days past we explored and took the time to learn the maps. We each explored and shared the secrets with one another. Then after everyone knew the map we would play. Seems no one has the time these days to explore an spend time.

If you want to hone your playing skills, MonsterMash is probably the best way. You learn to use multiple weapons, on multiple targets and handle extreme heavy attacks, like I can do on KOTH.

Playing the same coop maps over and over gets boring. Its only the players that make it fun. When you dont know the map and everything is unexpected tis more fun. This is evident by the player load increases when new maps come up for play.
There are two things that keep the Coop server alive, new maps and secrets, and peoples friendship..

I know everyone will not agree with my understanding of this, but this comes from a long time running servers and thousands of hours of playing the same maps over and over.

So in the end, Unreal is only what you make of it, the same as lasting friendships formed while learning and playing the game some of us love no matter what.

Woofers,, need some excitement,, meet me on Sickpups, and bring your guns and best shot.

The Clan Survives it all.
Once a Dog always a Dog, even if you don't play, Now thats friendship isn't it?



This is probably the oldest unreal player on line


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   BeachBumGuy-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:27 am

-(DOG)-

Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:17 pm
Posts: 281
Location: Italy,old europe
Oops,
I feel kind of guilty now for those map restructuring I made, but I asked owner for permission  and btw he liked 'em  Sorry Mike if I disappointed you, hope I could make up for that  map changes stop here for me as you suggest and so for new maps, I quit. Going back to retro 2D and XNA.
Anyway I never gave an opinion on newbies, but now I think its time, given that I like more or less different kinds of game modes I believe and leave the servers with a sad though, that coop killed dm, many wont subscribe to this point of view, but I thought about it for a lon long time; Also, my dm career is over for me for many reasons too long to list here among which a natural tendency to venture into new gaming universes after all these years (ringin-I see in there more old DOGs in there that in SP) same friendship too; I feel the need for new game modes so I explore and explore, and I often go to UT2004 RPG Dungeon, its a kind of one map server where your score is saved and you can improve you unreal character and get better weapons to venture deeper in unknown areas of the map with unreal 1 enemies, that keeps me motivated. I played all of the coop maps here in newbies. No secrets or unexplored for me, no offence, but its boring. Tired of mapping, takes time, dunno if its really worth the effort. Will always love unreal, and always keep in touch with the online friends of course, but I feel I have to lurk in different places now. I tried different FPS but I really dont get that adrenaline feeling anymore, but its not a good or bad thing I guess, its just a changing, my gaming career is long, back to 1976, I digested many different game paradigms during the long evolution of gaming. Right now at the end of 2011 and beginning of 2012 my gaming attitude is in mmorpg, dunno where it will take me, but I know that my onlinefriends will always be there, that means all of you. I will check in the forum constantly for updated.
U1 deleted
BBG-(DOG)-



"Semper Canis"
a machine becomes human when you can't tell the difference anymore


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   TomKatRebel-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:28 am

Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:08 pm
Posts: 15
Sorry beach, please read your mail



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   Oldsparky
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:29 am

Site Admin

Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:03 pm
Posts: 1286
Location: Indiana, USA
This is one old dog that will stick on unreal. I have a policy that thru thick and thin, Unreal is the game and the only game.
Temporary damage has been done to Unreal by facebook and ringin and some other player moves in the last year or so. I must admit that some of the trusted regulars have both abandoned me and Unreal.. Discouraging after years of work and the serious stuff I have been thru with many. I am quite disappointed.



This is probably the oldest unreal player on line


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   Rubicon-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:39 pm

-(DOG)-

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:27 am
Posts: 147
Location: Belgium
I 'm not so happy after the post I did read here  but guy's remember everyone who is involved in OUR servers do the best they can also so FORUM is there for to explain and say was sup and going wrong or bad or whatever.
As mentioned in this post once DOG always DOG I did also have probs before , everyone does have them one day just let all cool down we took all the boot in Unreal and we like to do something with it so let’s continue, if U don’t U will be like a lost one I know U all by now as U know me right now!
Leela is a good one for us all in mapping
TKR is good in the scripts
Sparky loves Koth and server support
Rusty,litlle,Pete,Su,Spin,BBG,Minus,Jack,TKR,Sparky,and more are truly good admins we need to go on and think a bit now!
This is not the end of the world because we do have some disputes
Just keep on going like me and btw if you ever need a ADMIN next to the rest I will be there to support even in UT he he .
Please don’t worry we got a full year in front of us to keep fragging wherever U want.
I understand also wath Leela wants to say it's hard for newbies if they are alone but coop is not realy a game to play alone his name say so
We got a pure coop running to if you want no ad nothing just as is
Finnaly HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL from ur Belgian friend ALEX



How smarter you are how more you see you are a dummie
Your Belgian Friend


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   £éè£å-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:40 pm

COOP Admin

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:27 am
Posts: 376
Location: Germany
One point must be clarified:
I DO NOT DISRESPECT THE WORK OF OTHERS !!!
I know very well what hard work it is to make a map and I respect every map, even the ones which are not my fav.
Calling me "arrogant" is an insult I CAN and will NOT take.
When I fixed a map I also made always a description of what was changed. I always asked to look at the map and let me know if it's ok or if there are things to change. I rarely got any feedback. If you don't believe me, ask Jackal or Sparky, they can confirm my words.

PS: Why wasn't any feedback made?

For the permissions: Have you any idea how hard it is to contact an author of a map? I bet not. I tried it so many times. Most of the time there isn't any READMe file or the email addresses are not valid anymore. In the whole time I was able to contact one author because his email is still valid.

Making some more changes has nothing to do with "not good enough...", that's pure slander, another insult I WILL NOT TAKE !

So in your eyes I'm not worth to be a DOG. That's sad, but ok I will take my tag off. No more DOG, no more Unreal.
PS: I do not insult other people. That's also something DOG's shouldn't do. Think about it!

For the record: My only intention and goal was always to make mostly pure SP maps playable with coop, so players have fun to play the maps. I highly recommend, that you remove every crap I've ever done from the server. Take all fixes out, I guess then everyone will be happy.

Happy new Year



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   Rubicon-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:42 pm

-(DOG)-

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:27 am
Posts: 147
Location: Belgium
BeachBumGuy-(DOG)- wrote:
Oops,
I feel kind of guilty now for those map restructuring I made, but I asked owner for permission  and btw he liked 'em  Sorry Mike if I disappointed you, hope I could make up for that  map changes stop here for me as you suggest and so for new maps, I quit. Going back to retro 2D and XNA.
Anyway I never gave an opinion on newbies, but now I think its time, given that I like more or less different kinds of game modes I believe and leave the servers with a sad though, that coop killed dm, many wont subscribe to this point of view, but I thought about it for a lon long time; Also, my dm career is over for me for many reasons too long to list here among which a natural tendency to venture into new gaming universes after all these years (ringin-I see in there more old DOGs in there that in SP) same friendship too; I feel the need for new game modes so I explore and explore, and I often go to UT2004 RPG Dungeon, its a kind of one map server where your score is saved and you can improve you unreal character and get better weapons to venture deeper in unknown areas of the map with unreal 1 enemies, that keeps me motivated. I played all of the coop maps here in newbies. No secrets or unexplored for me, no offence, but its boring. Tired of mapping, takes time, dunno if its really worth the effort. Will always love unreal, and always keep in touch with the online friends of course, but I feel I have to lurk in different places now. I tried different FPS but I really dont get that adrenaline feeling anymore, but its not a good or bad thing I guess, its just a changing, my gaming career is long, back to 1976, I digested many different game paradigms during the long evolution of gaming. Right now at the end of 2011 and beginning of 2012 my gaming attitude is in mmorpg, dunno where it will take me, but I know that my onlinefriends will always be there, that means all of you. I will check in the forum constantly for updated.
U1 deleted
BBG-(DOG)-

U just not have to do this BBG think Italian!



How smarter you are how more you see you are a dummie
Your Belgian Friend


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   Rubicon-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:44 pm

-(DOG)-

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:27 am
Posts: 147
Location: Belgium
£éè£å-(DOG)- wrote:
One point must be clarified:
I DO NOT DISRESPECT THE WORK OF OTHERS !!!
I know very well what hard work it is to make a map and I respect every map, even the ones which are not my fav.
Calling me "arrogant" is an insult I CAN and will NOT take.
When I fixed a map I also made always a description of what was changed. I always asked to look at the map and let me know if it's ok or if there are things to change. I rarely got any feedback. If you don't believe me, ask Jackal or Sparky, they can confirm my words.

PS: Why wasn't any feedback made?

For the permissions: Have you any idea how hard it is to contact an author of a map? I bet not. I tried it so many times. Most of the time there isn't any READMe file or the email addresses are not valid anymore. In the whole time I was able to contact one author because his email is still valid.

Making some more changes has nothing to do with "not good enough...", that's pure slander, another insult I WILL NOT TAKE !

So in your eyes I'm not worth to be a DOG. That's sad, but ok I will take my tag off. No more DOG, no more Unreal.
PS: I do not insult other people. That's also something DOG's shouldn't do. Think about it!

For the record: My only intention and goal was always to make mostly pure SP maps playable with coop, so players have fun to play the maps. I highly recommend, that you remove every crap I've ever done from the server. Take all fixes out, I guess then everyone will be happy.

Happy new Year

I did to Leela and it is hard some off them are not there anymore so dont worry!



How smarter you are how more you see you are a dummie
Your Belgian Friend


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   Oldsparky
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:10 pm

Site Admin

Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:03 pm
Posts: 1286
Location: Indiana, USA
Whoa, this is getting way out of hand.

Some history to help everyone understand.
Many or probably over half of all the maps on Jackals coop never saw the light of day until Jackal and Leela and some other editors help made it possible to play maps that had serious problems on line.

Many of the maps we play today on Jackals were fixed by Leela.
All I asked was if we were changing the maps so far that they are losing the game play the author desired to have on One Map.
The fixes she has done to date have had little effect on game play and in fact have made unusable maps usable.
I just wanted to be sure not to destroy the original authors intent. I do read Leelas description and observe the maps on line, and have no issue with any changes made to date.

While TKR post was a little more extreme than I had hoped, its true and this is why he feels like this and is concerned.
He is not a serious mapper but an avid code writer who has done much for the servers and the web site. In the past he has had his work
pirated, modified and others have taken credit for it, and offered up for open download without his permission, so he is quite sensitive to the authors pride in his work, and perceived copyrights. I understand this and agree with this in spirit.

I have no wish to upset a good thing here. I do want maps fixed if they need it, and I want to keep the original theme and difficulty as close as possible and make the maps able to play on line.

In my opinion, we do not distribute Newbies modified maps without authors permission. We distribute only cache files. We will remove at any time any modified map at authors request.

And yes I will remove the Kami maps if she insists we do it, not a problem.

And for the record, I see few DM players in Coop as I see few Coop players in DM.

Lets get the New Year started with some harmony



This is probably the oldest unreal player on line


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   TomKatRebel-(DOG)-
 Post subject: Re: Spawner on Coop ServerPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:53 pm

Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:08 pm
Posts: 15
Ok, I would like to state that my previous post came out a little blunter than I had intended, I am kind of in a bad place right now and not thinking as clear as I should be. Therefore, I would like to appologise for any insult taken, none was intended.

However Sparky is quite correct in both my beliefs and reasons for those beliefs. What I was trying to say is simply this, in my opinion, if the original authors consent cannot be gained then I believe no changes should be made to a map other than repairing anything that stops players from progressing through it.

To me personally, moving switches changes the playability of the map, and changing textures alters the atmosphere of it. If we have the original authors permission to make these changes then fair enough, however if not, in my opinion, I really think we should be asking ourselves "would they take offence at the changes made?"