Nixon Colson on Watergate January 8 1973

JANUARY 8, 1973: THE PRESIDENT AND COLSON, 4:05 to 5:34 P.M., OVAL OFFICE

Audio for this session between the president and his close aide, Charles Colson, is very poor, and calls out for repair or refinement at some future time, as there are many important details in this meeting. There has always been the question of whether the Hughes campaign contributions to Nixon played any part in the Watergate break-in; here, Nixon complains at what they got out of the burglary: "We didn't get a Goddamn thing from any of it that I can see." Colson: "Well, apparently we did, of course, at Watergate mainly Hughes." Colson then adds: "And we knew." Other important points include compromising material on Ted Kennedy, how they suspect the Watergate inquiry was headed by Sam Ervin rather than Kennedy to avoid being hit with this material, how to deal with Hunt, Liddy, Mitchell, and Nixon's on-going obsession, that his plane was bugged in the 1968 campaign.

Audio is taken from the following files:

http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape394/394-021a.mp3

Segment 1: 10:00-16:28

http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape394/394-021b.mp3

Segment 2: 47:27-58:33
Segment 3: 1:02:22-1:08:04

Clip with transcript is on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpqdgWWG6Gw

Majority of transcript is by the Watergate Special Prosecution Force (WSPF), with some supplemental material from John Dean's The Nixon Defense. Explanations regarding senators Ted Kennedy and Mike Mansfield are taken from The Nixon Defense.

Original transcript by WSPF can be found here:
http://nixon.archives.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/watergate/wspf/394-021_395-001.pdf

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible) Incidentally, uh, Haldeman was telling, uh, told me that that, uh, apparently that Hunt is going to [plead guilty to every one of his counts]. And very definitely, I think it’s the right thing for him to do, Chuck.

COLSON: Uh, he's doing it on my urging.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, I, understand that Haldeman is after some kid they've got that -- whether he was-- quit because he wanted him to bug Gary Hart.

COLSON: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, he was the one that bugged McGovern headquarters. Yeah, I suspect so.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But how could that be, for this reason: Watergate came before McGovern got off the ground and I didn't know why the hell we were bugging McGovern.

COLSON: Well, remember that was after the California primary.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Watergate was?

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh.

COLSON: We knew, I mean, at that time (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hmpff, Christ, I hope he didn't tell McGovern.

COLSON: (Laughs) Well --

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, suppose, I told Haldeman, I said, well "suppose, uh, suppose those in the Congress does call him." He said, "He didn't do it." You know, nothing. That's the thing about all of this. We didn't get a Goddamn thing from any of it that I can see.

COLSON: Well, apparently we did, of course, at Watergate mainly Hughes [a possible reference to the Howard Hughes loans to Nixon], and we knew.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't know. (Pause) Well, don't let it get you down.

COLSON: Oh hell no...

PRESIDENT NIXON: I know it's tough for, uh, for all of you, you, Bob, John, and the rest. We're just not gonna let it get us down. This is a battle, it's a fight, it's war and we just fight witha little, uh, you know, uh remember, uh, we'll cut them down one of these days. Don't you agree?

COLSON: I do. I, the only thing I hope is that the trial -- apparently Liddy is going to go the trial.

UNIDENTIFIED: (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Uh, not now.

COLSON: That's probably a good thing because the only one who's in a, is in a very desperate...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Sensitive position is Hunt.

COLSON: ...and, uh, the others will just tell the truth and prove their case. But there is one advantage to it, there will be a hell of a lot of stuff that's come out.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

COLSON: ...and there will be some counts that will not be, that will be dropped, I think, against Hunt at this point, and there will be appeals pending in the other cases. Now that has gotta be (unintelligible). That makes it very, very--

PRESIDENT NIXON: As long as this trial is going on, the Congress will keep its Goddamn cotton-pickin' hands off that trial-

COLSON: Well, it could be because obviously they will prejudice the defendants in this connection. You could get a, you could get a -- it, it --  a lot of this only comes out, out, this will delay the Congress getting to the point where they could even immunize the witnesses. Uh, a question of prosecuting because of lack of rules of evidence and that kind of specifics, etc. Uh, and the only question we have hanging from it at all is the fact that (unintelligible) no government reports, providing these guys did what they, what they, Ehrlichman.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, first of all, they're going to make the Government prove its case, but none of them are going to testify, isn't that correct?

COLSON: Correct.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Are they?

SEVERAL VOICES:(Unintelligible) McCord.

COLSON: That's another subject McCord (unintelligible) hanging on to (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible) appeal for all these guys.

COLSON: (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: But you know, Chuck, it's something they all undertook knowing the risks. Right? Whatta they'd think?

COLSON: I (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Did they think they'd get caught?

COLSON: No, I don't think that at all, I think they thought that, uh -- well, practically, uh --

PRESIDENT NIXON: The Democrats would drop it after the election? No?

COLSON: I think they figured that, that these were all guys who, uh, CIA.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

COLSON: And...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

COLSON: ...they all were taking orders from people like Liddy, acting on behalf of John Mitchell and others. You know what I mean?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Mitchell would take care of them? (Unintelligible) How could he?

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No way.

COLSON: That's, that's what they were -- Hunt's lawyer, he said he thought he, Hunt, objected to it violently because of the way Liddy handled the job. He said Liddy ordered him into Watergate. (Unintelligible) He said he didn't want any part of it. So we won't have to. But, he and Hunt may recognize...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, I'm glad that you (unintelligible)? I think where there’s a question of clemency, Hunt is a simple case. I mean, uh, after all, the man's wife is dead, was killed; he's got one child that has...

COLSON: Brain damage from an automobile accident.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right.

COLSON: (Unintelligible) one of his kids.

PRESIDENT NIXON: We'll build, we'll build that son-of-a-bitch up like nobody's business. We'll have Buckley [William Buckley, Jr., friend to Hunt and godfather of his child] write a column and say, you know, that he, that he should have clemency, if you've given eighteen years of service.

COLSON: (Unintelligible). We'll write one.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's what we'll do.

COLSON: He served under Hunt in CIA, of course. (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: We'll call him after, after. That's that's it. It's on the merits. I would have difficulty with some of the others.

COLSON: Oh, yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You know what I mean.

COLSON: Well, the others aren't going to get the same...Aren't...The vulnerabilities are different with the others also.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Are they?

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Why?

COLSON: Well because, uh, Hunt and Liddy did the work. The others didn't know anything direct that is, they didn’t have to do it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Uh, well, I think I agree, but you know --

COLSON: See, I don't give a damn if they (laughs) spend five years in jail in the interim.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, no.

COLSON: What I want of course, they took that attitude-

PRESIDENT NIXON: They took that application because...

COLSON: I mean they can't hurt us. Hunt and Liddy were direct guardians of the meetings, and all those discussions are very incriminating for us. More important that they...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Liddy is pretty tough.

COLSON: Yeah, he is, he is, apparently one of these guys who's a masochist, he, uh, he enjoys punishing himself. That's okay, as long as he remains stable. I think he's tough.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

COLSON: He's an ideologue, not the kind who (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible). Let's not hope by God --

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Jesus.

COLSON: (Unintelligible). Good (unintelligible) right wing-

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible) Well, it's the last day I'm fifty nine. (Unintelligible).

SEGMENT TWO:

PRESIDENT NIXON: I wrote a little note to Ed Williams [attorney Edward Bennett Williams, whose clients included Robert Vesco and the Washington Post], his offer -- about his offer to go the game, and that sort of thing, a nice little note.

COLSON: What the hell does he want?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Would you be bugged if I see him?

COLSON: No, the guys won't see him- He hasn't set the, he hasn't set the, uh (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Now, I assume, Chuck --

COLSON: Yeah, he is coming.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

COLSON: He wanted, he wanted to come in at 3:30 today, uh --

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right. I, I thought it would be good.

COLSON: And, uh, the chest's open all day long. Chris, Chris said that he got drunk 'cause he was, he was...

PRESIDENT NIXON: He does look like (unintelligible) of the Irish, remember?

COLSON: Yeah, and he was lamenting the fact that he ever took the Watergate case out with him because he said he missed that -- it ruined his chances of getting appointed to the Supreme Court.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well maybe he has a good chance for it. (Pause) Now, you know what I mean?

COLSON: That's what he wants.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, you could, you could point out, you know, the fact that, uh, the fact that, uh, if they make a, uh, make some mental notes (unintelligible) what the hell (unintelligible). When you get to Presidents have always...Bobby Baker, say you want the facts. (Unintelligible). Let's face it the Johnson (unintelligible). Democratic Party...and all that, and frankly that, the president is sort of puzzled sort of that they seem to take the Watergate as a vendatta. It's not -- , I'm not angry you understand, because you've got to represent the client. Just was puzzled by it. And they got word that, uh, they got out before (unintelligible) much really happened. Good. Get the point?

COLSON: That, that, I think that I...

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible).

COLSON: The thing I'm sure he recognised is that the Watergate matter was completely out of this control. That's his (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

COLSON: He only gets to the civil side. He can't -- there's nothing now that he can do with the Watergate.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

COLSON: Uh, and he realizes we've had wild publicity adverse to what the jury (unintelligible) they could indict him. Right? (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible) but, uh, let him feel there's no hard feelings, we don't have hard feelings, but that's the -- we can handle people. I, I, I'm a great believer in just being, you know --

COLSON: He wants to (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: How is he?

COLSON: (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Anyway the point is that, uh, you want to see him for other -- that, uh, you never know, we’ve got to play every string we've got here, don't you agree?

COLSON: Absolutely.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Think he's worth seeing?

COLSON: (Unintelligible) definitely see him. No problem with that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He is a friend of the, uh, soothsayer...Mitchell.

COLSON: Mitchell.

PRESIDENT NIXON: She signed his letter, you know. That's how we got the letter, and, uh, it's obvious that, uh, that, uh, he's trying to at least make a -- hold out some sort of a (unintelligible).

COLSON: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Because the, the way that really came about is he called, uh me and asked if she could run it over and give it to him. Send it over I told him, I said "Forget it.” I said (unintelligible) I don't know what you've got. I'm glad I gave it to him. But, I did call him, him back and I said, you know, "Be glad to have you drop by and say hello to people.” He just said, "Set a time." He couldn't believe that George (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, we gotta figure it, Chuck (unintelligible) this could go on and on and on (unintelligible) it would be one witness after another.

COLSON: I don't think that's important at this time. I'm not worried about the court proceeding, uh...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, as long as the court proceeding is going on (unintelligible) by God, Mansfield [Senate majority leader Mike Mansfield (D-MT)], the opposition has clearly -- (unintelligible) great, great dangerous for the Congress to get (unintelligible). They cannot -- it it -- Jesus Christ, suppose it's for the communists (unintelligible) everybody else would be jumping down the throats of the congress for interfering with the rights of the, the quote charged but not yet proven guilty individuals.

COLSON: Look at Ellsberg.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Look at [the] Manson case. You remember what I said about that? Christ, that's a, now what the hell is this? Where is the, where is the single standard here, Chuck?

COLSON: Well, this is, uh, this is, this is the classic case of the double standard. There isn't been, except for Bill Buckley, one single iota of sympathy for these fellows, none at all.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, the point is, too, it isn't just the sympathy the point is, the point is there hasn't been any outrages about whether they're guilty or not, no cry of outrage raised about the Congress meddling in their civil rights. God damn it, the Congress goes forward with an investigation while they are still in -- I think that's why the court proceeding has its advantage. As long as that court proceeding is on, the Congress should keep its Goddamn hands off.

COLSON: Well --

PRESIDENT NIXON: I think some of our guys up there have got to do that, they've got to say that.

COLSON: (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Or will they?

COLSON: No, I think they will. I think, uh, they have been relatively silent on this and that's just as well because at this point let's not throw...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Democrats.

COLSON: Democrats into the wash here. Uh...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah, but Mansfield's not optimum on this.

COLSON: Yeah, but that was Watergate written quite some time ago. (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, was it? Is that so?

COLSON: He wrote that letter back in November. [Mansfield had sent a letter to Senator Sam J. Ervin (D-NC) requesting he undertake an investigation of Watergate and “other insidious campaign practices.”] Just released it. I think the reason he released it frankly was to, uh...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Take Teddy off the hook. [have Sam Ervin head the Senate Watergate Committee rather than Kennedy, thereby avoiding the threat of Chappaquiddick material being used to stem the congressional inquiry]

COLSON: Yeah, take Teddy off the hook, and also, it was kind of a warning that you'd better have an open trial. And, uh I think the timing of that was, was more, uh, designed, not to let us think we could get away with being able to suppress, uh without complications, suppress (unintelligible) because throughout the (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible) Sweetheart. Yeah.

COLSON: That's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Laughs) Unfortunately, unfortunately. We're not that way. Can you imagine the way Johnson would have handled it?

COLSON: Yeah. I can.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

COLSON: The U.S. Attorney would, would get off his fanny (snap fingers) like that or told to. Just take a little tip. (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible). Well, I don't know -- we can't control that show. I don't -- we can't get away. (Unintelligible).

COLSON: I don't think so.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No.

COLSON: No, the stake will be sort of stalemate.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's what it amounts to basically. That's all Watergate. And incidentally we'll survive it.

COLSON: Oh, sure.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I just don't believe that as time goes on -- I think people can tire of it too. The Watergate thing can hang around like ITT and I think you get tired of ITT.

COLSON: Terribly, terribly.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You think so?

COLSON: Yes, I do. I think they'll develop the Watergate probe on this, unless they get a big name. If they do that it's a different story so be it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: What do you think, if they get big names, the big name denies it but, that's what happened in Africa, uh, but you really must be (unintelligible) to fix somebody. That must be very basically a hearsay proposition all, all up and down the line from what I--. Well, now you told me that. I just sensed it, what the hell -- at least Mitchell was that smart. He was close to it but not in it directly.

COLSON: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No, they can't.

COLSON: This is perjury.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Perjury that's a damn hard rap to prove. (Unintelligible).

COLSON: (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: We did it with Hiss. Well, I'll tell ya, it ain't easy. You gotta get it; they haven't got that kind of evidence on Mitchell, (unintelligible) uh, or anybody else. Have they?

COLSON: No, I don't think that -- I don't know who the hell -- I keep finding that difficult because case on this (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: You fight from (unintelligible). I don't know what to fight.

COLSON: No, well, I think if they get to the stage where they are volunteering and the Senate gets really serious really concerned about about putting them on television. Complicates the justice. That's one of the things I get most concerned with him and that was last week was the (unintelligible) agreeing to drop certain counts of Hunt's indictment in exchange for a guilty plea on three counts.

PRESIDENT NIXON: They did do that?

COLSON:

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, you fight that right through?

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And, if necessary you say I want to --

COLSON: I mean, Bittman [William O. Bittman, Hunt's lawyer], Bittman's admitting he can take that one to the Supreme Court.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You don't want -- a hell of a (unintelligible).

COLSON: (Unintelligible) will probably pass enough time, so that by then he will have serve his sentence.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't think that's -- I don't know (Unintelligible).

COLSON: Teddy's in an awkward position. The way it looks we can't him. It's hard to figure about this.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, did he?

COLSON: Yes sir. Yesterday, in the Washington Post (unintelligible)? to go through the (unintelligible), just takes a jackhammer to attract.

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible) I've read that one chapter --

COLSON: Yeah. Fantastic. I was going to tell you to take that (unintelligible) right now. This gal was under that portrait in the Barbados report.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He may be destroyed before he gets off the ground, Chuck.

COLSON: Yeah, I think so. I think Ted Kennedy may be (unintelligible)...

PRESIDENT NIXON: But you see, anything that hurts Jack hurts Teddy.

COLSON: That's right. (unintelligible) candlelight, that's what you're doing.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, it's about time, see, almost ten years, and-

COLSON: Yep.

PRESIDENT NIXON: After ten years, the (unintelligible) thing deserves to live or die (unintelligible). It may not live. Ever.

COLSON: (unintelligible) publishing these volumes (unintelligible) one year anniversary, certainly very good for us.

SEGMENT THREE:

PRESIDENT NIXON: Let me tell you, uh, one thing, the, uh, that your President is working on (unintelligible) looks good now. (Pause) The Watergate thing goes too far and we start getting investigated for it, we will have to, uh, get out and get everybody's (unintelligible) on it. Uh, the uh, Johnson bugging of the President for example, last summer. Now you talk about bugging the Democratic Committee and failing that, for example, and bugging a candidate for president the last two weeks of the campaign...

COLSON: Or close to it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: ...by the FBI.

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: ...by the FBI. [former Deputy Director of the FBI] Deke DeLoach did it. Johnson brought him over. Ordered it. Deke DeLoach has told Mitchell and Hoover had told Mitchell (unintelligible). The question is whether or not Mitchell will say that and whether he believed Deke DeLoach (unintelligible) job. Liddy is a former FBI man and he discussed that with Mark Felt and said I was ready to do it. He said, under oath? Would he mind doing it?

COLSON: He worked for John Kennedy.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, I don't mind (unintelligible) but I just say, just say forget you heard it. But I heard they're going to play for keeps.

COLSON: Well, there's another thing that has to be brought out too, and that is if we get really in thick, and if the going gets rough in Congress -- I don't know whether it will, you know. The court proceeding is going to run its course, and that's beyond our control...the country's control. Then I think we've got to prepare, be go all they we are going to be (unintelligible) all sorts of things (unintelligible) is floating around. [Indiana Senator] Birch Bayh (unintelligible) security money (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible) can we (unintelligible). Well, I just don't know. I just don't know. If we did, why have we done it before.

COLSON: Well, because Clark Mollenhoff [journalist and former Special Counsel to Nixon] ran a whole series on Birch Bayh's funding. I think kind of looked the other way. The Justice Department -- but those were (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: Statute of limitations problem. (Unintelligible). I don't know. But anyway we've got that on the (unintelligible). I don't know how (unintelligible). How do we get such stuff out, (unintelligible).

COLSON: With Kennedy, when Kennedy said (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: That I don't know about.

COLSON: But that's one story. (Unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: But the point is that the only way that those guys (unintelligible) they really (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: But let me, but let me say, having that in mind, would you not agree, though that, that the Johnson thing would indicate to you that the President of the United States (unintelligible) would, uh -- I would frankly hope and wish we could add that half of the problem -- I would like for it to happen. Although maybe it was better that it not happen. Because Johnson, Johnson cannot deny that it happened.

COLSON: Just knowing Johnson, I wonder if he actually saw the need to call up Marvin Watson [W. Marvin Watson, Johnson advisor] and say Marvin you get DeLoach's ass over here and tell him what you want done. (Unintelligible). Regardless, it doesn't matter whether it was someone close to Johnson or Johnson.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Course if he says he did it because of Vietnam and...All that. But nevertheless, he leave to great deal McGovern (unintelligible)--his talks with the North Vietnamese, the terrorists and all that.

COLSON: Pierre Salinger or uh -- (Unintelligible). Handed it to the President.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Close to the election, close to the election but (unintelligible) a hell of a lot though.

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's the whole point.

COLSON: I was thinking if it came to -- that we could give it something. Save one of our guys.

PRESIDENT NIXON: With what kind of an effect -- It would have some effect on (unintelligible).

COLSON: I (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: They would certainly say now (unintelligible), "Look here, what the hell are we talking about here?" It'd brush off on Humphrey.

COLSON: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He would deny on a stack of Bibles that he didn't know anything about it. And now who the hell is going to believe him?

COLSON: Nobody.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, we would say it was done for political purposes...

COLSON: It would be like the January 25th announcement...when you talked about a whole series of issues and, and went on, everybody after that including some where a list of questions (unintelligible) Mansfield said, well that's what were been urging it on the President all the time (unintelligible) he says it is (unintelligible). And your answer would be, I'll let the court proceeding go ahead (unintelligible) and now that, now that you're not satisfied with justice (unintelligible) and meet with...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Right.

COLSON: Let's call a spade a spade. Somebody had to deal with it. Deke would, uh, do it. He would do anything.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah, we’ve got a few cards to put out. Let’s do it. (to a new visitor) Sit down. Well, Chuck, good luck.

COLSON: Thank you, sir.