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Texas and SV part 3

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Jan 19th, 2013
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  1. 12:50 SilentVerse whee, don't really wanna bring this up again, but
  2. 12:50 SilentVerse "Subjectivity around Queen? Yes I agree which is why it shouldn't even be a suspect. You can't objectively demonstrate that it's broken so don't ban it."
  3. 12:50 SilentVerse i disagree with this, on the basis that
  4. 12:51 SilentVerse if people disagree about something, it SHOULD be suspected
  5. 12:51 SilentVerse because that is the point of a suspect test
  6. 12:51 Texas i honestly dont care if its SUSPECTED because lol omastar, but I have a huge issue if it gets banned
  7. 12:53 Texas I honestly can't think of anyone in recent memory who's said, "man, nidoqueen really destroys this team even though i knew it was good and made sure to check it when teambuilding"
  8. 12:53 SilentVerse i have lol
  9. 12:53 SilentVerse not in rarelyused, but
  10. 12:53 SilentVerse there have so many times where i have though
  11. 12:54 SilentVerse "oh, man, tangrowth checks this and this and this and this"
  12. 12:54 SilentVerse oh shit, it leaves me vulnerable to queen and i gotta slap uxie on my team if i use it
  13. 12:54 SilentVerse etc etc
  14. 12:55 Texas which is not the same thing as what i said
  15. 12:55 SilentVerse do explain what you said then
  16. 12:55 Texas "man, nidoqueen really destroys this team even though i knew it was good and made sure to check it when teambuilding"
  17. 12:55 Texas i dont think its that hard to understand what i said lol
  18. 12:56 SilentVerse o
  19. 12:56 SilentVerse yeah ok
  20. 12:56 SilentVerse that happened to me too~
  21. 12:56 SilentVerse take my
  22. 12:56 SilentVerse stall team vs windsong for example
  23. 12:56 SilentVerse i have still lost to nidoqueen multiple times
  24. 12:56 SilentVerse even though i ran a pokemon that is supposed to outright beat it
  25. 12:56 Texas you;ll have to provide team examples i dont have them memorized
  26. 12:58 SilentVerse ugh
  27. 12:58 SilentVerse fine
  28. 12:58 SilentVerse steelix
  29. 12:58 SilentVerse poliwrath
  30. 12:58 SilentVerse lickilikcy
  31. 12:58 Texas also i dont think its necessary that all team styles be viable anymore
  32. 12:58 SilentVerse roselia
  33. 12:58 Texas look at OU
  34. 12:58 SilentVerse cryogonal
  35. 12:58 Texas stall hasnt been viable in years
  36. 12:58 SilentVerse spiritomb
  37. 12:58 SilentVerse yes, which is why
  38. 12:58 SilentVerse so many people quit because of bw ou
  39. 12:58 SilentVerse 9.9
  40. 12:59 Texas thats a very sweeping generalization
  41. 12:59 Texas and a potentially faulty cause and effect
  42. 13:00 Texas also explain to me how your team lost
  43. 13:00 Texas it looks to me like windsong removed licky and cryo
  44. 13:00 Texas and then cleaned up with queen?
  45. 13:00 SilentVerse not just in windsong's match
  46. 13:00 SilentVerse in my grand slam match vs blarajan for example
  47. 13:00 Texas speaking specifically to that match though
  48. 13:00 SilentVerse i used a similar team with wish gallade
  49. 13:00 Texas is that more or less what happened?
  50. 13:00 SilentVerse no, i had to risk
  51. 13:00 SilentVerse burning it with tomb to kill it
  52. 13:01 SilentVerse otherwise i'm pretty sure i still would've lost
  53. 13:01 SilentVerse because his team kept pressuring mine
  54. 13:01 SilentVerse and licki did not have time to use wish + protect
  55. 13:01 SilentVerse without letting shit like kabutops set up for free
  56. 13:01 Texas ah see now we see the logical flaw
  57. 13:01 Texas you've attributed nidoqueens brokenness to factors outside of its influence
  58. 13:02 Texas including team pressure
  59. 13:02 SilentVerse are you
  60. 13:02 SilentVerse kidding me
  61. 13:02 SilentVerse so because nidoqueen doesn't automatically 6-0 a team by it's own
  62. 13:02 SilentVerse doesn't mean it's broken
  63. 13:02 Texas nidoqueen cannot sweep most of the tier with little or no effort on its own
  64. 13:03 Texas would you say that is a false statement?
  65. 13:03 SilentVerse it sweeps most of the tier
  66. 13:03 SilentVerse with little or no effort
  67. 13:04 SilentVerse lol
  68. 13:04 Texas really?
  69. 13:04 SilentVerse and it supports offensive teams
  70. 13:04 Texas pick a pokemon that its faster than
  71. 13:04 SilentVerse but providing enough support to pressure defensive teams
  72. 13:04 SilentVerse tangrowth
  73. 13:04 Texas pick the ones slower then it that check it
  74. 13:04 Texas err sorry, thats faster than it
  75. 13:04 Texas is what i meant to say
  76. 13:05 Texas the majority of things faster than it, roughly 40-50% of the tier can KO it
  77. 13:05 Texas a smaller percentage of things slower than it
  78. 13:05 Texas say 5% will wall it
  79. 13:05 Texas say 10% of things slower than it can take a hit and KO back but will be 2HKOd
  80. 13:06 Texas by no logical reasoning does nidoqueen sweep through the majority of the metagame with little effort
  81. 13:06 SilentVerse so what you're saying is
  82. 13:06 SilentVerse "fuk stall / defensive balance"
  83. 13:06 SilentVerse bitch please, just use offense
  84. 13:07 Texas if the metagame with nidoqueen in it is more conducive to using offense then more people will use that
  85. 13:07 Texas if the metagame without nidoqueen in it is more conducive to defensive balance / stall more people will use that
  86. 13:07 Texas there is no "right" metagame
  87. 13:08 Texas which is why you HAVE to evaluate Nidoqueen bsed on its own merits
  88. 13:11 SilentVerse except
  89. 13:11 SilentVerse the key difference between the metagames
  90. 13:11 SilentVerse is the difference in viability
  91. 13:11 SilentVerse between certain teamstyles
  92. 13:11 SilentVerse i have no doubt that a metagame without nidoqueen
  93. 13:11 SilentVerse will have every type of teamstyle be at least viable
  94. 13:11 SilentVerse like
  95. 13:11 SilentVerse nidoqueen has just singlehandedly
  96. 13:12 SilentVerse eradicated defensive balanced / stall
  97. 13:12 SilentVerse and even stuff like
  98. 13:12 SilentVerse trick room
  99. 13:12 SilentVerse which were once incredibly effective
  100. 13:12 Texas you cannot attribute tr to queen
  101. 13:12 SilentVerse yes
  102. 13:12 SilentVerse you can
  103. 13:12 Texas that was solely cofags domain
  104. 13:12 SilentVerse even with cofag
  105. 13:12 SilentVerse tr was dying
  106. 13:12 SilentVerse because nidoqueen utterly demolished it
  107. 13:12 SilentVerse single-handedly
  108. 13:12 Texas lol
  109. 13:13 Texas slowking, druddigon, aggron
  110. 13:13 Texas common tr sweepers that demolish queen
  111. 13:13 SilentVerse 2hkoed
  112. 13:13 Texas cofag, sets up in its face
  113. 13:13 SilentVerse queen is killing like 2-3 mons at least
  114. 13:13 SilentVerse nope, 2hkoed
  115. 13:13 SilentVerse just switch queen in on aggron on the last turn of tr
  116. 13:13 Texas tr is up
  117. 13:13 Texas irrelevant
  118. 13:13 SilentVerse and see how many issues tr has recovering from it
  119. 13:13 SilentVerse no
  120. 13:13 SilentVerse tr lasts
  121. 13:13 SilentVerse for 3 turns basically
  122. 13:13 Texas you said cofag is 2hkod
  123. 13:14 Texas what does it care
  124. 13:14 Texas it set up tr and weakened queen
  125. 13:14 SilentVerse my point is
  126. 13:14 SilentVerse NOTHING
  127. 13:14 SilentVerse can switch in on nidoqueen
  128. 13:14 Texas mesprit
  129. 13:14 SilentVerse to get cofag in safely to set up tr again in the first place
  130. 13:14 SilentVerse you have to sac something
  131. 13:14 SilentVerse 2hkoed
  132. 13:14 Texas prediction
  133. 13:14 SilentVerse ah yes
  134. 13:14 SilentVerse nidoqueen is always going to make the most obvious moves
  135. 13:14 Texas ah yes
  136. 13:14 SilentVerse arguably the best told me
  137. 13:14 SilentVerse *tournament player
  138. 13:14 Texas queen is always predicting perfectly
  139. 13:15 SilentVerse that if you are in the position to have to predict
  140. 13:15 SilentVerse you are losing
  141. 13:15 Texas wouldn't disagree witht hat statemtn; but that inherently assumes that the queen player is always winning
  142. 13:15 SilentVerse no
  143. 13:15 SilentVerse but the queen player
  144. 13:15 SilentVerse has the inherent advantage here
  145. 13:15 Texas if queen never has to predict then yes it does assume that
  146. 13:16 SilentVerse it doesn't really have to
  147. 13:16 SilentVerse it's not hard to weaken mesprit
  148. 13:16 Texas lets assume we have queen vs cofag
  149. 13:16 SilentVerse no
  150. 13:16 SilentVerse why the fuck
  151. 13:16 Texas are you really sludge waving that cofag?
  152. 13:16 SilentVerse would you do that
  153. 13:16 SilentVerse unless you are in on the last turn of tr
  154. 13:16 SilentVerse you're not gonna sludge wave
  155. 13:16 SilentVerse however, you are gonna
  156. 13:16 SilentVerse fire blast
  157. 13:16 SilentVerse because that + ep probably 2hkoes
  158. 13:17 Texas terrible probability management there
  159. 13:17 SilentVerse lol
  160. 13:17 Texas why open yourself up to the possiblity of a miss
  161. 13:17 Texas when you arent even guaranteed to get a 2hko
  162. 13:17 SilentVerse yes
  163. 13:17 SilentVerse you are
  164. 13:17 SilentVerse .
  165. 13:18 SilentVerse there is literally
  166. 13:18 SilentVerse very little risk to fire blast / flamethrower first
  167. 13:18 SilentVerse to catch the potential mesprit switch in
  168. 13:18 SilentVerse instead of letting it switch in for free
  169. 13:19 Texas is it necessary to argue about queen every day >_>
  170. 13:19 Texas i dont think either of us are changing our opinions
  171. 13:19 SilentVerse yes
  172. 13:19 SilentVerse
  173. 13:19 SilentVerse troo
  174. 13:19 SilentVerse but the point of these arguments
  175. 13:19 SilentVerse is that
  176. 13:19 Texas yeah but i have to shower before a teammate does an spl battle
  177. 13:20 SilentVerse queen shifts the metagame and outright makes certain teamstyles almost unviable
  178. 13:20 Texas can we please discard shifting the metagame as a legitimate argument
  179. 13:20 Texas its literally the most pointless thing
  180. 13:20 SilentVerse fine
  181. 13:20 SilentVerse but can we
  182. 13:20 SilentVerse say making certain playstyles almost unviable
  183. 13:21 Texas like what do you think would happen if houndoom drops down
  184. 13:21 SilentVerse is a perfectly legitimate argument
  185. 13:21 SilentVerse obviously
  186. 13:21 SilentVerse it is to the extent it shifts the metagame that matters however
  187. 13:21 SilentVerse but ok w/e, not gonna go on that train of that
  188. 13:21 Texas making certain playstyles almost unviable
  189. 13:21 SilentVerse *thought
  190. 13:21 Texas is legitimate if you can empirically support that they are in fact unviable
  191. 13:22 Texas ima afk now
  192. 13:23 SilentVerse kk
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