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Texas and SV part 3

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  1. 12:50   SilentVerse     whee, don't really wanna bring this up again, but
  2. 12:50   SilentVerse     "Subjectivity around Queen? Yes I agree which is why it shouldn't even be a suspect. You can't objectively demonstrate that it's broken so don't ban it."
  3. 12:50   SilentVerse     i disagree with this, on the basis that
  4. 12:51   SilentVerse     if people disagree about something, it SHOULD be suspected
  5. 12:51   SilentVerse     because that is the point of a suspect test
  6. 12:51   Texas   i honestly dont care if its SUSPECTED because lol omastar, but I have a huge issue if it gets banned
  7. 12:53   Texas   I honestly can't think of anyone in recent memory who's said, "man, nidoqueen really destroys this team even though i knew it was good and made sure to check it when teambuilding"
  8. 12:53   SilentVerse     i have lol
  9. 12:53   SilentVerse     not in rarelyused, but
  10. 12:53   SilentVerse     there have so many times where i have  though
  11. 12:54   SilentVerse     "oh, man, tangrowth checks this and this and this and this"
  12. 12:54   SilentVerse     oh shit, it leaves me vulnerable to queen and i gotta slap uxie on my team if i use it
  13. 12:54   SilentVerse     etc etc
  14. 12:55   Texas   which is not the same thing as what i said
  15. 12:55   SilentVerse     do explain what you said then
  16. 12:55   Texas   "man, nidoqueen really destroys this team even though i knew it was good and made sure to check it when teambuilding"
  17. 12:55   Texas   i dont think its that hard to understand what i said lol
  18. 12:56   SilentVerse     o
  19. 12:56   SilentVerse     yeah ok
  20. 12:56   SilentVerse     that happened to me too~
  21. 12:56   SilentVerse     take my
  22. 12:56   SilentVerse     stall team vs windsong for example
  23. 12:56   SilentVerse     i have still lost to nidoqueen multiple times
  24. 12:56   SilentVerse     even though i ran a pokemon that is supposed to outright beat it
  25. 12:56   Texas   you;ll have to provide team examples i dont have them memorized
  26. 12:58   SilentVerse     ugh
  27. 12:58   SilentVerse     fine
  28. 12:58   SilentVerse     steelix
  29. 12:58   SilentVerse     poliwrath
  30. 12:58   SilentVerse     lickilikcy
  31. 12:58   Texas   also i dont think its necessary that all team styles be viable anymore
  32. 12:58   SilentVerse     roselia
  33. 12:58   Texas   look at OU
  34. 12:58   SilentVerse     cryogonal
  35. 12:58   Texas   stall hasnt been viable in years
  36. 12:58   SilentVerse     spiritomb
  37. 12:58   SilentVerse     yes, which is why
  38. 12:58   SilentVerse     so many people quit because of bw ou
  39. 12:58   SilentVerse     9.9
  40. 12:59   Texas   thats a very sweeping generalization
  41. 12:59   Texas   and a potentially faulty cause and effect
  42. 13:00   Texas   also explain to me how your team lost
  43. 13:00   Texas   it looks to me like windsong removed licky and cryo
  44. 13:00   Texas   and then cleaned up with queen?
  45. 13:00   SilentVerse     not just in windsong's match
  46. 13:00   SilentVerse     in my grand slam match vs blarajan for example
  47. 13:00   Texas   speaking specifically to that match though
  48. 13:00   SilentVerse     i used a similar team with wish gallade
  49. 13:00   Texas   is that more or less what happened?
  50. 13:00   SilentVerse     no, i had to risk
  51. 13:00   SilentVerse     burning it with tomb to kill it
  52. 13:01   SilentVerse     otherwise i'm pretty sure i still would've lost
  53. 13:01   SilentVerse     because his team kept pressuring mine
  54. 13:01   SilentVerse     and licki did not have time to use wish + protect
  55. 13:01   SilentVerse     without letting shit like kabutops set up for free
  56. 13:01   Texas   ah see now we see the logical flaw
  57. 13:01   Texas   you've attributed nidoqueens brokenness to factors outside of its influence
  58. 13:02   Texas   including team pressure
  59. 13:02   SilentVerse     are you
  60. 13:02   SilentVerse     kidding me
  61. 13:02   SilentVerse     so because nidoqueen doesn't automatically 6-0 a team by it's own
  62. 13:02   SilentVerse     doesn't mean it's broken
  63. 13:02   Texas   nidoqueen cannot sweep most of the tier with little or no effort on its own
  64. 13:03   Texas   would you say that is a false statement?
  65. 13:03   SilentVerse     it sweeps most of the tier
  66. 13:03   SilentVerse     with little or no effort
  67. 13:04   SilentVerse     lol
  68. 13:04   Texas   really?
  69. 13:04   SilentVerse     and it supports offensive teams
  70. 13:04   Texas   pick a pokemon that its faster than
  71. 13:04   SilentVerse     but providing enough support to pressure defensive teams
  72. 13:04   SilentVerse     tangrowth
  73. 13:04   Texas   pick the ones slower then it that check it
  74. 13:04   Texas   err sorry, thats faster than it
  75. 13:04   Texas   is what i meant to say
  76. 13:05   Texas   the majority of things faster than it, roughly 40-50% of the tier can KO it
  77. 13:05   Texas   a smaller percentage of things slower than it
  78. 13:05   Texas   say 5% will wall it
  79. 13:05   Texas   say 10% of things slower than it can take a hit and KO back but will be 2HKOd
  80. 13:06   Texas   by no logical reasoning does nidoqueen sweep through the majority of the metagame with little effort
  81. 13:06   SilentVerse     so what you're saying is
  82. 13:06   SilentVerse     "fuk stall / defensive balance"
  83. 13:06   SilentVerse     bitch please, just use offense
  84. 13:07   Texas   if the metagame with nidoqueen in it is more conducive to using offense then more people will use that
  85. 13:07   Texas   if the metagame without nidoqueen in it is more conducive to defensive balance / stall more people will use that
  86. 13:07   Texas   there is no "right" metagame
  87. 13:08   Texas   which is why you HAVE to evaluate Nidoqueen bsed on its own merits
  88. 13:11   SilentVerse     except
  89. 13:11   SilentVerse     the key difference between the metagames
  90. 13:11   SilentVerse     is the difference in viability
  91. 13:11   SilentVerse     between certain teamstyles
  92. 13:11   SilentVerse     i have no doubt that a metagame without nidoqueen
  93. 13:11   SilentVerse     will have every type of teamstyle be at least viable
  94. 13:11   SilentVerse     like
  95. 13:11   SilentVerse     nidoqueen has just singlehandedly
  96. 13:12   SilentVerse     eradicated defensive balanced / stall
  97. 13:12   SilentVerse     and even stuff like
  98. 13:12   SilentVerse     trick room
  99. 13:12   SilentVerse     which were once incredibly effective
  100. 13:12   Texas   you cannot attribute tr to queen
  101. 13:12   SilentVerse     yes
  102. 13:12   SilentVerse     you can
  103. 13:12   Texas   that was solely cofags domain
  104. 13:12   SilentVerse     even with cofag
  105. 13:12   SilentVerse     tr was dying
  106. 13:12   SilentVerse     because nidoqueen utterly demolished it
  107. 13:12   SilentVerse     single-handedly
  108. 13:12   Texas   lol
  109. 13:13   Texas   slowking, druddigon, aggron
  110. 13:13   Texas   common tr sweepers that demolish queen
  111. 13:13   SilentVerse     2hkoed
  112. 13:13   Texas   cofag, sets up in its face
  113. 13:13   SilentVerse     queen is killing like 2-3 mons at least
  114. 13:13   SilentVerse     nope, 2hkoed
  115. 13:13   SilentVerse     just switch queen in on aggron on the last turn of tr
  116. 13:13   Texas   tr is up
  117. 13:13   Texas   irrelevant
  118. 13:13   SilentVerse     and see how many issues tr has recovering from it
  119. 13:13   SilentVerse     no
  120. 13:13   SilentVerse     tr lasts
  121. 13:13   SilentVerse     for 3 turns basically
  122. 13:13   Texas   you said cofag is 2hkod
  123. 13:14   Texas   what does it care
  124. 13:14   Texas   it set up tr and weakened queen
  125. 13:14   SilentVerse     my point is
  126. 13:14   SilentVerse     NOTHING
  127. 13:14   SilentVerse     can switch in on nidoqueen
  128. 13:14   Texas   mesprit
  129. 13:14   SilentVerse     to get cofag in safely to set up tr again in the first place
  130. 13:14   SilentVerse     you have to sac something
  131. 13:14   SilentVerse     2hkoed
  132. 13:14   Texas   prediction
  133. 13:14   SilentVerse     ah yes
  134. 13:14   SilentVerse     nidoqueen is always going to make the most obvious moves
  135. 13:14   Texas   ah yes
  136. 13:14   SilentVerse     arguably the best told me
  137. 13:14   SilentVerse     *tournament player
  138. 13:14   Texas   queen is always predicting perfectly
  139. 13:15   SilentVerse     that if you are in the position to have to predict
  140. 13:15   SilentVerse     you are losing
  141. 13:15   Texas   wouldn't disagree witht hat statemtn; but that inherently assumes that the queen player is always winning
  142. 13:15   SilentVerse     no
  143. 13:15   SilentVerse     but the queen player
  144. 13:15   SilentVerse     has the inherent advantage here
  145. 13:15   Texas   if queen never has to predict then yes it does assume that
  146. 13:16   SilentVerse     it doesn't really have to
  147. 13:16   SilentVerse     it's not hard to weaken mesprit
  148. 13:16   Texas   lets assume we have queen vs cofag
  149. 13:16   SilentVerse     no
  150. 13:16   SilentVerse     why the fuck
  151. 13:16   Texas   are you really sludge waving that cofag?
  152. 13:16   SilentVerse     would you do that
  153. 13:16   SilentVerse     unless you are in on the last turn of tr
  154. 13:16   SilentVerse     you're not gonna sludge wave
  155. 13:16   SilentVerse     however, you are gonna
  156. 13:16   SilentVerse     fire blast
  157. 13:16   SilentVerse     because that + ep probably 2hkoes
  158. 13:17   Texas   terrible probability management there
  159. 13:17   SilentVerse     lol
  160. 13:17   Texas   why open yourself up to the possiblity of a miss
  161. 13:17   Texas   when you arent even guaranteed to get a 2hko
  162. 13:17   SilentVerse     yes
  163. 13:17   SilentVerse     you are
  164. 13:17   SilentVerse     .
  165. 13:18   SilentVerse     there is literally
  166. 13:18   SilentVerse     very little risk to fire blast / flamethrower first
  167. 13:18   SilentVerse     to catch the potential mesprit switch in
  168. 13:18   SilentVerse     instead of letting it switch in for free
  169. 13:19   Texas   is it necessary to argue about queen every day >_>
  170. 13:19   Texas   i dont think either of us are changing our opinions
  171. 13:19   SilentVerse     yes
  172. 13:19   SilentVerse    
  173. 13:19   SilentVerse     troo
  174. 13:19   SilentVerse     but the point of these arguments
  175. 13:19   SilentVerse     is that
  176. 13:19   Texas   yeah but i have to shower before a teammate does an spl battle
  177. 13:20   SilentVerse     queen shifts the metagame and outright makes certain teamstyles almost unviable
  178. 13:20   Texas   can we please discard shifting the metagame as a legitimate argument
  179. 13:20   Texas   its literally the most pointless thing
  180. 13:20   SilentVerse     fine
  181. 13:20   SilentVerse     but can we
  182. 13:20   SilentVerse     say making certain playstyles almost unviable
  183. 13:21   Texas   like what do you think would happen if houndoom drops down
  184. 13:21   SilentVerse     is a perfectly legitimate argument
  185. 13:21   SilentVerse     obviously
  186. 13:21   SilentVerse     it is to the extent it shifts the metagame that matters however
  187. 13:21   SilentVerse     but ok w/e, not gonna go on that train of that
  188. 13:21   Texas   making certain playstyles almost unviable
  189. 13:21   SilentVerse     *thought
  190. 13:21   Texas   is legitimate if you can empirically support that they are in fact unviable
  191. 13:22   Texas   ima afk now
  192. 13:23   SilentVerse     kk
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