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- 3:42:15 PM - Kanaalmodus +ns ingesteld door weber.freenode.net.
- 4:06:06 PM - batgirl_ [~batgirl@66-162-161-250.static.twtelecom.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- zersiax
- heya
- 4:12:42 PM - yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- 4:12:44 PM - yorick heeft de ruimte verlaten (Part).
- 4:29:01 PM - RedNifre [~RedNifre@37-247-88-134.natip.skydsl.de] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- RedNifre
- Hi.
- zersiax
- heya :)
- RedNifre
- You're the blind programmer, right? :)
- zersiax
- so it seems :)
- sounds likea superhero alias :)
- threw this channel up so peeps can ask the questions they're throwing onto HN right now ...I got the 'you're submitting too fast' message so I can't answer on there
- RedNifre
- haha, I wonder if you can fix computer problems Daredevil style by hitting the machine with a crow bar and perceive its internals based on the echos ;)
- I just read your blog and it was quite interesting. But it sounded very low level to me.
- I mean, having the program read to you seems equivalent to the old one line screens.
- zersiax
- I had to keep it somewhat dumbed down to make sure it was understandable to most peeps
- RedNifre
- You mentioned IDEs like IntelliJ which makes me wonder if it was possible to port all the nice commodity features to audio.
- zersiax
- what a screenreader basically does is take the highlighted content on screen and read it out loud. this by itself is very limited, but you have several tools to jump through the screen content by word, line, paragraph, object in the rendered DOM tree etc
- RedNifre
- What I mean is, if I write Haskell in vim, I don't only have the program in a sequential form, it's actually multiple lines and instead of brackets I have indentation and different keywords or comments actually have a different color.
- So, what I imaged is that maybe you would have a screen reader that reads code in a male voice and comments in a female voice.
- zersiax
- being only able to focus on one line at a time is true, then again the same is true for reading. moving to a new line would go faster visually since you just need to look somewhere else on the screen where I would press an arrow key or a hotkey of some kind
- RedNifre
- Or you mentioned only turnind the brackets on when you want to debug wrong nesting.
- I wonder if it was possible to increase the pitch of inner blocks.
- zersiax
- yes, doing some scripting to that extent can be done for Windows screenreaders and for Unix an add-on for Emacs called Emacspeak exists that actually does that very thing
- 22 minuten 39 seconden
- RedNifre
- Well, no. With reading, you see the other lines in your peripheral vision. Imagine if you had three readers at the same time. The current line would be read normally while the adjacent lines could be read at a lower volume ;)
- zersiax
- the problem with Emacspeak is that it's frankly a bit of a b*tch to get working properly and I barely speak any Lisp
- RedNifre
- and you could use your scroll wheel to scroll through the lines by adjusting the volume.
- zersiax
- haha that might work, it's an interesting idea. I think it might get difficult to focus on more than one line in that way though, but I've never tried it. its like listening to two conversations at once, where one takes precedence I imagine
- RedNifre
- A while ago I saw a presentation where somebody did the opposite of what you are doing: He programmed using his voice instead of typing.
- zersiax
- for that particular issue what I do right now is zoom in on one function (the one the debugger tells me the error is in for example) and check common errors ...quote or bracket mismatches, missing keywords etc ...and if thats not the problem I go through it bit by bit to see what's causing code to break
- RedNifre
- What surprised me that he didn't limit himself to actual language. For example, he input brackets and colons using funny sounds which he called owl sounds or clicks.
- zersiax
- I saw that presentation too. He did lisp right? with all sorts of strange little words to input programming-related signs
- yep. I'm surprised he got his dictation program to catch those consistently
- RedNifre
- I don't remember the exact details, but the language might be irrelevant. I mean, you mentioned some people replacing the long "opening bracket" with something shorter... I wonder if using sound effects for special characters might work.
- zersiax
- I know a fellow blind programmer who used piano note sounds to determine what indentation level he was at. thats sort of the same thing
- RedNifre
- In your blog you quoted your speech synthesizer by actually spelling out "bracket" as a word instead of typing the single character. I guess typing the single character of a bracket is equivalent to outputting a sound effect. Hm...
- Yeah, that's what I was just thinking.
- Well, not exactly... the piano note is just a single event... if I were blind I might prefer having it read in a different pitch.
- zersiax
- which is what Emacspeak does. you good with emacs by any chance and willing to give me a hand to get it working? :P
- would be a good addition to my arch dev box :)
- RedNifre
- I'm sorry, I only use vim.
- Another thing, do you use a smartphone? Or do you play MUDs?
- zersiax
- Yes and yes :)
- Own an iPhone 5C which is my primary phone, have somewhat older Android device rooted to test Android's accessibility improvements
- and I have been playing muds for about 10 years :)
- 4:45:45 PM - batgirl_ heeft de ruimte verlaten (Part).
- RedNifre
- I had this crazy idea of playing a Mud using only a speech synthesizer and a text to speech program. That way, you could for example play while lying in bed in total darkness.
- But your blog post made me think.
- I wonder if I could program on my phone, only using the headset, using text to speech, while going for a walk in the forrest.
- I mean, I tried programming directly on the phone, but the screen is inconveniently small. But for sound, a phone is as good as a desktop machine.
- zersiax
- i wonder how accurate dictation would be for that. I find on my pc, Dragon Naturally Speaking does a very good job in transcribing what I am saying but that is in a room with almost no background noise
- I can program lying on my back though ...I do that all the time when I'm doing light stuff. Get a little out of focus after a while though
- and my screen tends to be fully turned off
- RedNifre
- The more I think about it, the more I like the thought of programming with audio output. I just pictured you walking in a Starbucks only with a tiny bluetooth keyboard, headphones on, and just start typing. :)
- zersiax
- grin. it does have its perks :)
- still a little overwhelmed about how viral this thing went :)
- just wrote a bit about how I do things for the folks at FCC :)
- RedNifre
- I guess it's interesting for several completely different reasons. People who create websites or programs are interested in hearing how you experience their stuff, hackers are fascinated by a different way to program etc.
- You also mentioned a braille line. I think I already heard about such devices about 20 years ago and would have thought that they progressed. Why are there no screen sized devices?
- zersiax
- because there aren't. Nobody made them and I think money might be an issue ...braille lines cost upwards from 4000 bucks
- ugh ...this is kind of annoying. People ask genuinely good questions on HN and I cannot answer them due to this HN throttle
- 29 minuten 56 seconden
- RedNifre
- Yeah, it seems like nobody noticed that you mentioned this irc channel.
- Or people don't read comments before posting their own.
- zersiax
- well I had to edit it into an already existing comment since HN cut me off after 4 replies or so :)
- so it may have gone a little unnoticed
- RedNifre
- Ah, there are quite a few comments now... I'll go and read them first, brb.
- How do things like 😄 and 🏩 sound to you? What happens iff teh spellng gets wery haard to reed?
- zersiax
- there's a modified dictionary file in the wild for NVDA screenreaders that reads out emoji :) as for spelling getting a little crazy, I've been on muds andIRC for 10 years. I got used to it ;)
- smiling face with open mouth and smiling eyes ... love hotel
- thats the translations of your emoji ;)
- RedNifre
- Are there any blind friendly games that aren't 100% text?
- zersiax
- www.audiogames.net
- there's games that are 100% audio :P also, some mainstream games are playable ...most fighting games for example. I'll pwn you at a game of Tekken :P
- RedNifre
- Ah, great! I'll check those out.
- Can you recommend one of those audiogames?
- zersiax
- hmmm. depends on what you're into. there's shooters, RPG, Strategy, Arcade ...just have a glimpse around :)
- swamp is a multiplayer first-person shooter ...shades of doom is sort of ...well ...doom-like, things like Troopanum and Alien Outback are kinda like Space Invaders, etc
- RedNifre
- Thank you, I'll try those first.
- zersiax
- then there's soundRTS which is your basic Real-time strategy game, etc etc
- 5:16:36 PM - s7z7g7 [~s7z7g7@gateway/tor-sasl/s7z7g7] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- zersiax
- heya :)
- s7z7g7
- Hi, I have a quick question, if you don't mind, zersiax. :)
- RedNifre
- Have you heard of Advance Wars? It is a great strategy game, but it was only released on the Nintendo Game Boy. However, somebody made a pure html version of it. Unfortunately, the board is one big image, but every unit is a separate image. Can you see what is going on in this game? http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=219363&grid=ON
- zersiax
- go ahead s7 :)
- s7z7g7
- Cool. I listened to that audio clip of your screen reader. What is the max WPM you have for that?
- zersiax
- no, I cannot read whats going on in that game, since none of the individual tiles are labeled. All I get back is 'link link link link link link link ......'
- the max wpm ...i reckon about 150-175 somewhere
- what you heard , the audio clip, was about 75% maximum speed
- RedNifre
- Regarding the screen reader, I once tried listening to my favorite podcast at 3x the speed to save time. It worked, but it was so tiresome that I dialed it back to 1.5x. Can you listen to your screen reader at that speed for several hours? Do you get exhausted at all, or are you so used to it that you no longer notice?
- s7z7g7
- Oh, interesting. But that sounded faster than typical auctioneers at 250WPM. Could I be mistaken?
- zersiax
- I'dhave to hear it, do you have a link s7?
- s7z7g7
- Sure
- Be careful, soundcloud plays a song right after this is over: https://soundcloud.com/freecodecamp/zersiaxs-screen-reader
- zersiax
- and I don't get exhausted by listening to speech at the speed you guys heard, I tend to go a little bit faster if I am in a hurry and that does get tiring after a while.but I can read novels at this speed just fine
- speeding up a human voice like that makes it choppy, which forces your brain to fill in the missing pieces though. kinda like how you don't notice a spelling mistake because you read over it ...that is tiring, digitally this doesn't happen as much though
- s7z7g7
- Damn, reading at that speed would be a huge benefit. I need to find a good program so I can listen to the 100 sci-fi audiobooks I have.
- zersiax
- haha :) no, I know what my screenreader sounds like :) I meant the guy speaking at 250wpm so I can compare
- s7z7g7
- Ah, very intersting.
- Sorry, zersiax, I'll get one real quick.
- zersiax
- take your time :)
- RedNifre
- s7z7g7 you can actually read at that speed. let me search the link...
- Ah, here it is: http://www.spritzinc.com/
- That's actually what my next question would be about :)
- 5:27:10 PM - sstangl [~sstangl@fsf/member/sstangl] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- s7z7g7
- I read at 500-600wpm with nearly 100% comprehension.
- 3 uur 25 minuten
- sstangl
- out of curiosity, do you have a preferred screen reader for GNU/Linux?
- s7z7g7
- zersiax, I'm having a hard time finding a link for 250wpm specifically. I am, however, finding links to people who speek over 600wpm.
- RedNifre
- Visual text is usually arranged in lines in a two dimensional way, while a screen reader is obviously sequential. The link I just posted displays words visually all in the same spot one after another, but longer or more complicated words appear for a longer time. Is it possible to have the braille line work in this way as well? As in, you put eight fingers on eight characters and the braille line just puts one word under them at a time
- instead of a full line in quick succession?
- s7z7g7
- Here's one, a world record holder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-o9vTk8Poo
- zersiax
- hmm. I can't get the sprints thing to actually output sound :) as for the woman ...I cannot follow this speed, but I can pick out bits and pieces from it
- red, what would that do exactly? you mean you would no longer need to move your hands but let the words just scroll by as it were?
- RedNifre
- zersiax no, the spritz thing doesn't output sound, instead it displays written text in the same way your screen reader outputs it: all in the same place, but sequentially. Even if you could get it to work it would just sound the same to you. I posted it to s7z7g7 because your screen reader might be faster than reading conventionally arranged text visually.
- zersiax
- ahh. I just got back that I am actually mistaken about theWPM, the max is about 700 WPM. so, that would mean that the clip you heard is about 525 WPM
- RedNifre
- zersiax not scroll, but just switch from one to the next.
- s7z7g7
- zersiax, I thought that was faster! :) Very impressive.
- zersiax
- that might work red, but would lose the advantage a braille display currently holds vs just audio, namely that youcan zoom in on a particular part of the line and keep your hand there while scrolling. that is handy for finding inconsistencies in the end of lines of code for example (no ;, no } ) if your lines have roughly the same length
- RedNifre
- I was asking because I find I can read faster using spritz, because I don't have to move my eyes over the page (This is the whole point of spritz anyway) so I was wondering if that made sense for the braille line as well. So instead of moving your hands over the whole line you have the braille line push the text right into your hands one word at a time like the screen reader does.
- ah, so the braille line is useful for programming while the screen reader is better for natural language?
- zersiax
- braille display is generally useful for very precision-oriented tasks. programming, mathematics, even indentation for reports etc. because that is a bit of a nuisance to check with a screenreader (it involves hitting left and right arrow often to check small things like are there enough spaces? ) while you can see that at a 'glance' on a braille display
- huh ...is there a tactile term for glance? ...I end to just og with mainstream lingo, most blind people do really. 'hear you later' just sounds creepy
- Sorry for the typoes btw ...I think I have too many programs open or so , typing isa bit laggy. Pc can't keep up with my 500CPM so scrambles words now and again...a little annoying but
- RedNifre
- which keyboard layout do you use?
- zersiax
- qwerty :)
- i've briefly looked at dvorak but never really got around to really learning it
- RedNifre
- And I'm not sure if I should actually recommend it. I learned it in school and it is definitely more comfortable, but not necessarily faster or more accurate.
- Or maybe a bit accurate because you don't have to move your fingers at much, but oh well. Might not be worth it.
- When reading visually, I usually read each word as a whole. I only have to look at the individual letters if I don't know the word. How does this work for braille? Do you read whole words at once? How many fingers do you use?
- zersiax
- it varies. you tend to use eight fingers, but you use those for the whole line. A line isn't very long though ...typical braille displays take 40-45 characters, office ones take 80. but eight fingers on a 40-cell line ...you have the line read in under a second if you're quick
- my type of braille display has a gimmick where it scrolls to the next line instantly when it detects your fingers reaching the end of the line , where you usually push a key for that
- 5:49:15 PM - cccp [~u@loon.sponc.de] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- cccp
- hey zersiax, just read your article - regarding inaccessible text in pictures, have you tried project naptha yet? it's an extension for chrome that does ocr on pictures with often decent success. not sure how accessible the extension itself is, though. https://projectnaptha.com/
- 5:50:45 PM - cccp is nu bekend als mxn.
- 5:51:52 PM - tsp [tsp@unaffiliated/tsp] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- tsp
- zersiax: grats, you're still on the hn frontpage
- zersiax
- thanks cccp :) I didn't know of this extension. I can do OCR on most screens but the Dash tutorials did something that made the actual img tag invisible , so I couldn't focus on it with my screenreader. An extension directly into a browser like this might work better though
- tsp I'm still kind of shocked by that tbh :) I just wrote that blog post because I was asked to by a community that has done a lot for me and I am learning a lot from ...I go to sleep, walk away from my pc for a few hours and the thing goes viral :)
- if anyone is interested in learning JS and having some fun along the way I highly recommend FCC btw, its a fun community and its free ...so nothing to lose but time :)
- mxn
- it is usually used by highlighting text in the image with the mouse, i guess that might be difficult for you? maybe there is a another way as well, though, haven't checked
- zersiax
- now looking into alternatives for my blog
- mxn
- hm, looing at the project naptha website i just came up with a question for you: that site is quite long and I'd navigate it using the headings of subsections, which in this case are not html h1 elements, but just some special div. does your screenreader recognize that somehow, can you use auch headings to navigate a long text?
- zersiax
- let me have a look at that page, just a sec
- tsp
- e
- =
- zersiax
- i see a number of headings on that page, yes
- they may have the role heading attribute
- lemme check the hTML source
- mxn
- can't see anything like that, but the font size is 30pt, so that will probably give it away.
- zersiax
- i actually see styled headings ...are you on this page? https://projectnaptha.com/
- mxn
- oh. I didn't notice, there are two kinds of headings. The non-h1 heading is actually more pronounced than the h1 ones. The non-h1 ones are "Example: Comics", "Example:Scans" etc
- 6:04:16 PM - RedNifre heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit: Verlassend).
- s7z7g7
- Thanks for answering my question, zersiax. :)
- zersiax
- not a problem:)
- 6:27:08 PM - s7z7g7 heeft de ruimte verlaten (Part: "Leaving").
- …
- 9:14:33 PM - jt2190_ [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- jt2190_
- Hello
- 9:27:24 PM - sstangl_ is nu bekend als sstangl.
- 9:31:24 PM - jt2190_ heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit).
- 9:53:57 PM - fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@162.243.206.108] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- fiatjaf
- am I too late for the Q&A? I wish there was a log of this channel (so I could not ask repeated questions).
- zersiax: thank you for that post. It was very good news for me from a lot of perspectives. I just wanted to know if you can understand normal english text with that screen reader in that incredible speed. for example, can you read a book like that? the first times you used a screen reader you did in a slow speed, or was it always that way? thank you for answering.
- 10:08:25 PM - phaethon [~Q@c-67-177-252-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- phaethon
- zersiax: Thanks bor bitching about the inaccessibility of developer apps, but you shoulda really mentioned the damn frameworks that are inaccessible by default.
- 11:28:35 PM - jt2190 [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- jt2190
- Hi Florian
- Have you ever built your own web interface on a REST API?
- zersiax
- you guys around?
- tsp
- yep
- 12:16:38 AM - jt2190 heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit: Remote host closed the connection).
- 12:30:56 AM - sstangl heeft de ruimte verlaten (Part).
- zersiax
- there we go ...HN lets me post again and I answered every comment I could
- zersiax
- and now I shall sleep. I'll lurk to intercept questions though ;) waves
- fiatjaf
- thank you, zersiax (please use your ability to read so fast and be an erudite on all the matters).
- zersiax
- erudite? :) please elaborate fiatjaf
- fiatjaf
- (I don't know the words, a scholar, a polymath, a philosopher. more than a cientist, a sage)
- zersiax
- ahh, I understand you now :) thanks a lot
- aww ...code combat currently is just a bit too inaccessible to play. it really seems like a fun game ...I hope they fix it :(
- 5:48:26 AM - rogeliodh [rogeliodh@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe73:99ea] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- …
- 3:25:28 PM - jt2190 [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- zersiax
- jt2190
- I was looking for you ;)
- rogeliodh
- zersiax: do you have a log of this channel from yesterday? I can't find any one
- 4:33:18 PM - jt2190 heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit: Remote host closed the connection).
- zersiax
- yes, I have been lurking from the first message
- I can copy-paste it into an email if you like
- 4:48:45 PM - jt2190 [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- …
- 5:43:45 PM - jt2190 [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
- zersiax
- if I missed any questions, I'm sorry I was traveling :) kindly ask again
- rogeliodh
- can you paste the log to pastebin? (for anyone interested)
- 2 uur 30 minuten
- 6:04:18 PM - otiose heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
- 6:05:49 PM - De verbinding met uw account is verbroken.
- 8:28:29 PM - Uw account is weer verbonden.
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