Responses to these chat logs in that same topic

brandoprojectm: Please don't make it sound like you're getting killed off. How you handled this was also a part of seeing how you had matured as a potential staff member, and you're not helping your case.



Nin10mode: I refuse to believe in this black and white image of justice and wrongdoing that both you and Doram are painting through your private conversation.

[b]This is the exact reason I wanted every discussion to be public.[/b] Doram, I don't feel that you've done your part in my vision of this promotion of his either, but I have myself to blame as well for not noticing quickly enough. And yes, I have chat PMs from other staff members as well, but none as lengthy, as hand-holding, or as spoiling as these, and If you really saw similar faults in the other staff members, then they should have deserved the same conversation you kept having with Shroom. If you wanted to better build and strengthen some bridges, it cannot be between just two people.

That said, it wasn't too spoiling; I recognize that you refused Shroom's demands.

Infrastructure requires a multitude of interconnecting roads, and I can only assume, from this and the other PM conversations I heard about on occasion, that this has been a regular thing.

If you guys had talked, or at least if Doram had tried just as hard towards Raz and the rest of us as he did you, maybe it wouldn't be like this.


[b]I'm reluctant to change my stance again. I saw from your perspective very, very, very early on, Shroom, but I've lost it ten times over. I've been for and against you more than enough times, and I've angered pretty much every staff member over this whole history of yours.

I'll be selfish one more time and give you until I write my demotion post to convince me again.[/b] If you want a time frame, sometime over the weekend I should have my words collected.

You had better be willing to actually talk through more than one person. That goes for me as well; I'm not gonna be a proxy for anyone anymore, and I hope you extend the same trust in the future, Doram, and everyone. If you want to say something, say it to everyone.

Oranjui: i just want to make two things clear.

[quote="Supershroom"]and I've requested a demotion for Raz and MK because I have seen an undeniably bad development long enough, yeah, that was a revolutionary and uncomfortable request, though I've simply had to get off my chest what has accumulatedly clogged up over several weeks
and I surely don't have a significantly bigger part of the blame than them in terms of the recent escalations, currently I'm not even willing to respond to MK's wall of messages anymore, I can't prevent the vicious spiral of them stirring drama and aggressiveness anyway[/quote]
demotion of staff isn't something that happens because you don't like somebody. raz and mk aren't getting demoted just because you said so. neither were aggressive toward you in any of the conversation we had recently--they were both responding fairly and rationally to your own arguments, and if you're unwilling to respond to that, then that's not really very fair or mature at all.

nobody hates you. nobody's seeking "vengeance" on you. many of us simply believe that, while you have great intentions and passion for the site, you're simply unfit for a staff position in your current state of being (various reasons; see staff chat for details, and give it a long hard read. that goes for other staff too if you haven't kept up with the staff chat in the past few days). that's why the majority (greater than 50%) of us feel that the best option at this point is a demotion. in fact, many of us, including myself, have even said that we want to see you try at being staff again in the future, because of that very potential we see in you.

[quote="Supershroom"]I don't regard myself as having failed, still[/quote]
that's great that you have dignity and all, but i just want you to know that statements like these are exactly why people think you haven't grown since the beginning of all of this. you don't seem willing to accept any responsibility for your own behaviour. and no, that's not to say you're a complete failure. but part of being a rational human being is learning to accept one's own faults.

the same thing goes for every time you say things like "just read the entire tragic history". you're still portraying yourself as a helpless victim being utterly crucified, despite many of us trying to help you recognize that things like that are not really mature behaviour. see brando's post--he summed it up better than i probably am right now.



anyway, best of luck with everything. i'd love to see you come back some day. make your actions count, and i think you'll see a lot more success.


~MP3 Amplifier~: Accepting defeat and admitting when you are wrong is a good quality to have. I have a lot more respect for those people, it shows strength in character.


Supershroom: [quote="me"]currently I'm not even willing to respond to MK's wall of messages anymore, I can't prevent the vicious spiral of them stirring drama and aggressiveness anyway[/quote]
Yeah, that already indicates my reasoning why I've went to Doram only, and yeah, I've said as well "I know that I shall not really talk things in private with you behind everyone's backs, but there's something so sensitive that I fear it would bring nothing but more drama and heated emotions" before all of this, and I don't wanna blame him for his willingness, in fact I was quite right with my assumption in the end.

Moral of this is that if you want me to talk about things with everyone and also the persons I have critique about, it requires also you to show a certain degree of cooperation and frankness instead of denying subjects and holding grudges; at least these were the feelings that got clogged up and also have been addressed, and if it indeed changes to the better, it is the most important step to have this problem solved.

I've said it clearly, I'm willing to go new paths, as I was often enough after serious drama. I AM willing to avoid things like hard feelings on my side, or being hell-bent on getting my way, or holding a grudge myself.

[quote="Oranjui"]demotion of staff isn't something that happens because you don't like somebody. raz and mk aren't getting demoted just because you said so[/quote]
Not really, if I didn't have forum- and attitude-pertaining reasons, I wouldn't have gone this (admittedly revolutionary) step. I've hoped that the concerns would only be adressed between Doram, me and the persons in question, before I was PM'd myself by Bryce. My concerns have mostly referred to treatment of newer members and how the condition of the forums will develop - a commanding and patronizing moderation style doesn't benefit us, that's what I've expressed.

Pertaining my way to speak and write - it has always been filled with idioms and metaphors, both in German and English, and of course it can make misunderstandings happen, but honestly I can't change that from scratch, it's the humanistic education I've grown up with, and even if my metaphors can be a bit extreme at times, doesn't always mean that they would be used outside of apropriate scope. You may not always have an easy time understanding everything, but saying "you have no communication skills" is a both excessive and self-serving judgement. Of course, world doesn't end just from being demoted, yet the circumstances kinda allow to draw the comparison.

I'm admitting flaws in behaviour, like I've done often already, but neither am I admitting [i]everything[/i] that Bryce has counted up, the FoA stuff is really done and dusted, and I won't talk about it again to someone who wants to enter it, may they be my friend or not. I'm also not accepting defeat already for various reasons - first off, there's an unpragmatic side of it anyway, the same talks that happened in #staff and F23 will happen in #runouw and Site Discussion, and other people could be shocked or upset as well, and furthermore, let's look at it: Both sides have accused themselves of pretty similar things. Both sides happened to twist words around, both sides are self-serving, both sides tend to overdraw the situation. Both sides have tried private talk first as well. We can cut off the connection completely - but then [i]both[/i] sides must be cut off. And we can encourage interaction, or at least "peaceful coexistence", and let time work with risks and complications - and as Doram has stated, such complications CAN prove useful in the long term, and the seed TAKES time to bloom, and we've been on a good way by sorting many things out.

I don't necessarily need to wear a coloured name to keep representing Runouw by heart, but regarding this it's still more obstructive than useful to cut away my permissions if you hope anyway to give them back sometime. Actually, I've always taken my job of representing runouw.com VERY serious, in fact a bit too serious, and I already know ways how to do it more relaxedly.

Lastly, no matter how this ends - I'm still asking to arrange the team for the better by hiring persons that bring a fresh wind, namely Ven for mod and Karyete for SR.


~MP3 Amplifier~: But that's the thing...it's not necessarily anyone's job to represent Runouw, except Runouw himself. The rest of us represent it as a community, it's not one person with more value than anyone else.