<Boilerplate> So Geisha are you writing any articles lately or your still writing the Fox Spirit story?
<Boilerplate> for Ars Marginal
<SerCorbieGeisha> I am still writing my story
<Boilerplate> ah
<Boilerplate> Anyway I think you've seen my messages about the World of Darkness a while back trying to 'improve' it somehow.
<Boilerplate> Which I'm still figuring out how or creating my own world based on it. Maybe you explained before how you would do it (since no one else knows what going on and such)
<Boilerplate> But maybe I'm still baffling over the "Vampire, Werewolf, Mage" catagories though and if needs to be dicarded or not from a academic/cultural contextual POV.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Whatever you think
<Boilerplate> Since the whole reason it seems that people normally use these catagories is because they are currently popular creatures in modern society and sometimes our society takes creatures/being/etc from other cultures and takes them out of context and put them into those catagories.
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<Boilerplate> SerCorbieGeisha so it's whatever I think I guess.
<SerCorbieGeisha> I mean
<SerCorbieGeisha> You can try out different concepts
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't have the answers to everything
<SerCorbieGeisha> I'm just trying out my own way
<Boilerplate> Geisha, I've recently had a dicussion with LoyalThird and he has brought up something rather interesting about the "Western and Eastern" philosphy thing.
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<LoyalThird> hello
<LoyalThird> geisha u there?
<LoyalThird> SerCorbieGeisha
<LoyalThird> please respodn to me i need to white knight
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yes
<SerCorbieGeisha> I was busy
<LoyalThird> hi
<LoyalThird> well me and boilerplate were talking about this eastern vs western conflict in religious term
<LoyalThird> did you say it did not exist?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Huh?
<LoyalThird> well boilerplate talked about how eastern religion are seen as collectivist while ours are seen as individualist for some reason
<LoyalThird> well boilerplate gave me a log of some conversation
<LoyalThird> and it talked about an rpg where science and magic are opposed or something
<LoyalThird> then it went into the dichotomy between eastern and western religion
<LoyalThird> do you remember anything about this? should i give link?
<SerCorbieGeisha> I sort of remember
<LoyalThird> well what did you say about this?
<Boilerplate> Well we were talking about the World of Darkness especially the Kindred vs Kuie Jinn
<LoyalThird> boilerplate told me it was perhaps better that i talk to you about this
<Boilerplate> how they were 'different'
<LoyalThird> uh so
<LoyalThird> i was saying that the dichotomy between eastern and western religion is part of the islamist discourse
<LoyalThird> where the gods are interfering in our lives according to our old greek mythology, while muslims try to be one with god, or in harmony
<LoyalThird> also in russian national-bolshevik discourse they say taht the east is traditional,authoritarian,collectivist, while the west is modern,freedom,individualist
<LoyalThird> it is part of their discourse that there will be a clash between the east and the west
<SerCorbieGeisha> Really... Like tradition and authoritiarianism isn't strong in the West
<LoyalThird> well i would argue taht the modernist side is winning in the west
<LoyalThird> while the traditional one is winning in the east
<LoyalThird> and the same for liberty and authoritarianism, though the west is getting more authoritarian as time goes by
<SerCorbieGeisha> See, you're thinking of a collective East. But there is no collective East
<SerCorbieGeisha> We're not all the same
<SerCorbieGeisha> THere isn't a collective West either
<SerCorbieGeisha> How far do you put the borders?
<LoyalThird> im talking about their viewpoints, im not sure how accurate it is
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's not
<LoyalThird> but i think it is true taht the east is much more collectivistic compared to the west
<LoyalThird> the asian countries are known for their respect of their families and honor code
<SerCorbieGeisha> Wow, because I have a code of honour, right?
<LoyalThird> the same manifestation could be the so called honor crime
<LoyalThird> ...
<LoyalThird> what country are you from? what is your ethnicity?
<SerCorbieGeisha> i live in Singapore, I am Thai and Chinese
<LoyalThird> okay
<LoyalThird> well i dont know about your situation, but i hear that koreans are very strong on family, and so are japanese
<LoyalThird> this is the reason why some among the korean people sent apology lettesr when cho killed people in america, because they are collectivistic
<SerCorbieGeisha> And the reason why America got so pissed off about Singapore caning that American vandalist is because of?
<LoyalThird> ? what
<LoyalThird> what event are you talking about, i dont know about that
<LoyalThird> what i am talking about is that there are differences among civilisation, for example between teh english and teh french, there are different codes to inheritance, i cant remember which one, but one gives all the inheritance to all equally, while (i think english) the other gives it to the oldest son
<LoyalThird> also in british culture the kids are kicked out of the house as soon as they are 18
<LoyalThird> while in french culture they may stay fora  longer time
<SerCorbieGeisha> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay
<SerCorbieGeisha> I mean if America is so individualistic, why get so mad about this?
<LoyalThird> well i never said they were UBER individualistic
<LoyalThird> you are talking in term of black and white
<SerCorbieGeisha> Look
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, I am exaggerating
<LoyalThird> also if they were collectivistic they would ahve apologized for what this american did
<SerCorbieGeisha> There's also such a thign as diplomacy
<LoyalThird> yes
<LoyalThird> gubment defend their citizen
<SerCorbieGeisha> South Korea receives a lot of defense from America
<LoyalThird> well
<SerCorbieGeisha> It canb e a diplomatic move to appease America through that
<LoyalThird> you cant deny taht south korea is more collectivistic than america
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yes, I can
<LoyalThird> prove it
<LoyalThird> i actually dont care about this
<SerCorbieGeisha> Me neither
<LoyalThird> im saying this is teh discourse of natinoal-bolsheviks and islamist
<LoyalThird> but you point out to nothing that disproves it, you just get offended
<SerCorbieGeisha> I have little patience for sterotypes about the east
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<Boilerplate> So SerCorbieGeisha what did you think of that LoyalThird person?
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<LoyalThird> geisha: a man wrote a book in favor of the clash of civilisation, and say that we leftist are dummies in their favor
<LoyalThird> i wanted to know arguments against this idea of dichotomy between east and west
<LoyalThird> i know little about asian culture but i can say that while korae is seen as collectivist, germany could also be said to be so
<SerCorbieGeisha> What I'm saying is that thinking in terms of general category is imprecise
<SerCorbieGeisha> Scoeity is dynamic
<LoyalThird> theres many different types of people in a society?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yes
<LoyalThird> or the society changes?
<SerCorbieGeisha> That too
<SerCorbieGeisha> For example
<LoyalThird> couldnt there be a general trend in a society, just like in ##marxism we discussed about how rural people are usually more conservative than urban
<SerCorbieGeisha> Chinese society in general is heavily influenced by Confucianism, which can be said as very conservative
<SerCorbieGeisha> But
<SerCorbieGeisha> Chinese history has a long, well, not exactly a tradition
<SerCorbieGeisha> Let's just say that in folklore, there are a lot of individualistic errant heroes
<SerCorbieGeisha> Those are more often praised by the rural folk
<LoyalThird> so it would be more like history?
<SerCorbieGeisha> These heroes are often considered criminals though
<LoyalThird> you mean they committed crimes but are heroes? or are they negatively seen?
<SerCorbieGeisha> They are negatively seen
<SerCorbieGeisha> Because they exist outside of the Confucian order
<SerCorbieGeisha> THat is
<SerCorbieGeisha> Urban folk see them negatively
<SerCorbieGeisha> Because they are the elites
<SerCorbieGeisha> THey control law
<SerCorbieGeisha> People who subvert the social order even for moral purposes are ultimately threatening
<SerCorbieGeisha> IN fact
<LoyalThird> so would there be more of a dichotomy between rural vs urban? rahter than east vs west
<SerCorbieGeisha> This is a general idea held across all civilisations
<SerCorbieGeisha> The East vs West idea is relatively new
<SerCorbieGeisha> In fact, the whole idea of tradition vs modernity
<LoyalThird> to be moer precise, this man wrote a book against islam
<SerCorbieGeisha> Well
<LoyalThird> ah okay
<SerCorbieGeisha> Tradition is something that can change
<SerCorbieGeisha> And modernity is also technically not a concrete idea
<LoyalThird> well the leftist in france at some point were persuaded taht it was tehir duty to colonize the world and bring civilization
<LoyalThird> due to the enlightenment and whatever
<SerCorbieGeisha> When the people of the Japanese islands were sinicsed, they probably thought of Chinese culture as modern
<SerCorbieGeisha> Or they might not
<SerCorbieGeisha> Because the term moderni s relatively new
<SerCorbieGeisha> The concept may not have been universal
<SerCorbieGeisha> But yeah
<SerCorbieGeisha> 19th century in European soceity is seen as very conservative
<SerCorbieGeisha> Meanwhile
<SerCorbieGeisha> IN Japan, social nudtiy was not a taboo, at least not for the poor. The rich do not engage in it because it is seen as unrefined
<SerCorbieGeisha> To contemporary eyse, we would think them liberal
<SerCorbieGeisha> However, Western imperialism forced a lot of countries to adopt European stateship, weapons, cultures and so on
<SerCorbieGeisha> In the case of Japan, much of Japanese conservativism is adopted from the West
<SerCorbieGeisha> And part of it is diluting the social codes of the rich
<SerCorbieGeisha> And enforcing them among the masses
<SerCorbieGeisha> In the early 20th century, a lot of Western queers live in Shanghai because it was more open to them
<SerCorbieGeisha> And indeed
<SerCorbieGeisha> There have been a history of same sex marriages in various parts of China from the 15th century on wards
<SerCorbieGeisha> Again, something we wuld consider liberal
<SerCorbieGeisha> Westernisation led to seeing homosexuality as a mental illness
<SerCorbieGeisha> Meanwhile in the West
<SerCorbieGeisha> People were rebelling against the social order
<SerCorbieGeisha> Or questinonig norms
<SerCorbieGeisha> THis is how there tends to be the worldview that the so-called East is traditional and the West is modern
<SerCorbieGeisha> By the way, I don't say so-called West
<SerCorbieGeisha> Not because I believe it's a collective
<SerCorbieGeisha> But because the European powers who dominated the world called themselvs the West
<SerCorbieGeisha> Well, European and American
<SerCorbieGeisha> And even so, it is flexible
<SerCorbieGeisha> Spain used to be an oppressive power
<SerCorbieGeisha> But in contemporary times, tehy are seen by Europeans as lesser whites
<SerCorbieGeisha> And in America, well, you know the whole fuckery going on with relating SPanish to Central and Southern Americans
<SerCorbieGeisha> So yeah
<SerCorbieGeisha> By the way
<SerCorbieGeisha> THe current Islamic regime in various Muslim countries came about as part of the Wahabbist revolution in the 19th and 20th centuries. Before that, way back in Medieval times, Islamic societies were generally considered what we woudl call progressive
<SerCorbieGeisha> Of course, the level of progressiveness is not always consistent across lands
<SerCorbieGeisha> So point being, I advocate soceity not being seen as a set of values
<SerCorbieGeisha> But seen as how values are presented in a given place and time
<SerCorbieGeisha> How forces in a unit interact with each other
<SerCorbieGeisha> And many times, changes in one soceity can affect many others
<LoyalThird> thats interesting
<SerCorbieGeisha> Traditionalists exists everywhere, and in Asia, a strong part of traditionalism is driven by a need to retain a sense of identity in the face of Westernisation
<LoyalThird> i already knew part of this but i had forgot this
<LoyalThird> but would this traditionalism actually defend older western ideas in face of new ones?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Sadly, a lot of what is seen as traditional (homophobia among CHinese, for example) was not a tradition 100 years ago
<LoyalThird> tahts what i meant
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah
<LoyalThird> ok
<LoyalThird> well thats very interesting :) thank you
<SerCorbieGeisha> Also
<SerCorbieGeisha> While China and Taiwan are both Chinese countries
<LoyalThird> the libertarians are fucking violent and aggressive in my country
<SerCorbieGeisha> Taiwan is noted for being one of the msot progressive countries in Asia
<SerCorbieGeisha> Personally, i don't like the term progressive because it conjures the image of society constantly improving, and that's not true at all
<SerCorbieGeisha> The danger of seeing history like that is that
<SerCorbieGeisha> Um
<SerCorbieGeisha> I'm not sure how to word this
<SerCorbieGeisha> But
<SerCorbieGeisha> Not all oppressions existed everywhere
<SerCorbieGeisha> ANd not all int he same forms
<SerCorbieGeisha> Viewing history as constant improvement compells people to think that what we have now is good
<SerCorbieGeisha> When actually, we can do even better
<LoyalThird> i agree with this
<LoyalThird> well progressive usually say that we must make things better
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah
<LoyalThird> but they also tend to imply what we have is so great compared to the past
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah
<LoyalThird> when in reality there might not be as much difference as we think there is
<SerCorbieGeisha> Or there used to be a great difference and we're actually on the lower end of it
<SerCorbieGeisha> And some things, we're much better at
<SerCorbieGeisha> Like our toilets
<SerCorbieGeisha> I can't imagine life without flush toliets
<Boilerplate> SerCorbieGeisha: LoyalThird also linked me this: http://asiasociety.org/countries/traditions/value-and-meaning-korean-family  what is your opinion about it?
<LoyalThird> well that is convenience i wouldnt say toilets ahve to do with culture
<SerCorbieGeisha> I'm not Korean, so I don't want to talkabout it
<SerCorbieGeisha> I can only talk about things shared between cultures
<SerCorbieGeisha> If I were to talk about Korea, it will be inaccurate
<SerCorbieGeisha> And frankly
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't know much about Korea
<Boilerplate> Well LoyalThird claims that they are a "collectivist people" in his PM I had with him.
<Boilerplate> Maybe he could be wrong or out of context thing or whatsover
<Boilerplate> Since you don't know about Korea I guess it's irrelivant anyways I guess.
<Boilerplate> Which apparently only a Korean knows about Korea
<SerCorbieGeisha> They woudl certainly be in the best position
<Boilerplate> I guess in the end, if you want to know about Korea is really like, talk to a Korean person basically.
<Boilerplate> rather than a external factor defining them who they are
<Boilerplate> It's also where cultural contexts come to play as well
<SerCorbieGeisha> Context is very important in understanding something
<Boilerplate> Yep