01:20 < Causeless> RWR needs a kind of login system
01:20 < RicksterEpicWin> Then how would pirates play?
01:20 < RicksterEpicWin> Argh!
01:20 < RicksterEpicWin> lol
01:20 < Causeless> not for DRM, but instead multiplayer, so we can reserve our usernames :P
01:20 < Causeless> ofc still allow the old method of changing alias
01:22 < Causeless> but also, things like game leaderboards, persistent servers holding your rank (could could have your rank upgrade at absurdly low rates, but keep it persistent accross game sessions)
01:23 < Causeless> I love the idea of one absolutely humongous persistent map, literally at least the size of each current map combined, but with bigger armies and persistent users
01:23 < Causeless> kinda like... action shooter role-play
01:23 < C4-Bot> Planetside 2ish?
01:23 < Causeless> and of course some more varied terrain would be possible with big maps, like giant canyons etc
01:23 < Causeless> yeah, planetside2-ish is a good way of saying it
01:24 < Causeless> but without air transport, the act of transport itself should deliberately take a long while to bring in an aspect of troop movements
01:25 < Causeless> the player character/s would be able to spawn at any owned points, but the mass of armies, the AI, should be a bit more limited
01:25 < Causeless> so, instead of always putting as many friendlies as possible at the front line, it'd only be able to spawn a limited amount of the total, and be forced to spawn the rest at other bases
01:26 < Causeless> meaning troop movements are a major part or it, which is great for immersive gameplay etc
01:28 < Causeless> things like destroying an enemy troop operations HQ (similar to comms trucks now) would mean that their ability to spawn units is even more restricted
01:29 < Causeless> for example, if they own a limit cap of 5 HQs (there being 10 overall, 5 per team), then they'd be able to have the most freedom, being able to spawn a large portion of troops at singular bases instead of
                   being forced to spread them out, causing troop movement delays
01:31 < Causeless> then, if you lost a HQ, the amount of freedom is reduced, forcing the high-level AI to spawn the units more evenly spread than before, so they can't organize large attacks so quickly or easily
01:33 < Causeless> this'd allow matches to last longer, and be more epic (once the AI is on it's last few legs, even if they have no HQs and the opposing team has all of them, they'd stiull generate a pretty massive army
01:34 < C4-Bot> Bonus cap points like barracks and munitions caches would also make gameplay more competitive
01:34 < Causeless> obviously their total spawn allowed would drop since they have less area to cover, but even so they'd have a pretty sizeable force at their last base, because even though they would need to spread out their
                   forces very evenly, it'd be over just one or 2 bases so they wouldn't be scretched thin as before
01:35 < Causeless> meaning you get that element of a "last stand" be so much bigger, too, and it'd encourage the players to try attacking enemy HQs etc instead of camping for kills
01:36 < Causeless> yeah, of course! perhaps barracks could modify total units allowed spawned per second, and munitions caches would modify guns and weapons found at spawn, but also crates in their bases
01:36 < Causeless> and make getting mortar rounds more difficult
01:37 < Causeless> they'd still have decent weapons, the default rifles are pretty damn powerful
01:37 < Causeless> however they'd lack variety, meaning they would severly lack in some enviroments
01:38 < Causeless> for example, across large empty plains you'd want snipers or LMGs, and in urban enviroments a shotgun is perfect
01:39 < Causeless> and limiting weapons in that way would bring in some other interesting gameplay mechanics that aren't explicitly defined: for example, raiding enemy territories to break crates for their weapons
01:40 < bwc153> What interesting convo have I just stumbled upon?
01:41 < C4-Bot> Itd be also pretty damn cool to have airfields that dropped supplies, vehicles and paratroopers, artillery stations that constantly peppered enemy positions
01:41 < Causeless> yeah exactly
01:41 < Causeless> air travel, should be limited though
01:41 < Causeless> it's be special case
01:42 < C4-Bot> this is forum-suggestion post worthy!
01:42 < Causeless> really the high-level AI and the player in this big MP matches should ideally be as seperate as possible
01:42 < bwc153> I think air travel should be limited to the aspect of Helipads allowing squad transport, and maybe resupply.
01:42 < Causeless> the player would be able to spawn in the front lines irregardless of the unit caps, that only apply to the AI
01:42 < bwc153> Should Player be as OP as he is against AI, or should that change?
01:43 < Causeless> players should be powerful yet weak
01:43 < Causeless> so, they should always be able to feel powerful against the AI
01:43 < Causeless> more intelligent, a better shot, etc
01:43 < Causeless> more aware
01:43 < Causeless> however, in terms of abilities, they'd be exactl;y the same as the AI
01:43 < bwc153> So, exactly as they are now?
01:44 < bwc153> Except AI abilities in terms of tactical thinking increased, maybe
01:44 < Causeless> it limits rambo-style shotting
01:44 < Causeless> yeah, pretty much as they are now
01:44 < bwc153> You can still easily rambo vs. AI. :P
01:44 < Causeless> only if ya got cover :P
01:45 < Causeless> the enemy AI shoul be clever with assault - they'd be visibly working together, flanking, purtting suppressive fire on you
01:45 < bwc153> Even with my mod, which makes AI better (not through increase in abiltiies, just by chance of their current preference of burst fire benefitting my mod's weapon behavior)
01:45 < Causeless> makes them a worthy opponent
01:45 < Causeless> however, in terms of defence, they should be retards
01:45 < bwc153> lol, why?
01:45 < Causeless> well, hear me out -
01:46 < Causeless> stealth will be as hard as shit if they patrol
01:46 < Causeless> or act unpredictable
01:46 < Causeless> when you assault them, you should feel as if you've really outsmarted them
01:46 < bwc153> Why not make the patrols isolated and small enough that a few guys can overpower?
01:47 < Causeless> they shouldn't really know how to defend against too many complex tactics
01:47 < Causeless> so you always can feel clever
01:47 < Causeless> yeah, a limited amount
01:47 < Causeless> for some immersion
01:47 < bwc153> I'd say 4-5 men patrols
01:47 < Causeless> but not enough to make them clever
01:47 < Causeless> specifically, I'm talking about patrols inside bases
01:47 < Causeless> they should be weak, and easy to take out stealthily
01:48 < Causeless> they NEED to be dumb in terms of awareness and defense, to reward the player
01:48 < Causeless> for examp[le,. right now they tend to stick out of cover quite a lot, but still show the intelligence required to find and use cover
01:48 < C4-Bot> the ai patrols bases right now
01:49 < bwc153> In terms of defense, they should be good.  Awareness (particularly - during night) not as much.
01:49 < C4-Bot> but its more like sentry duty with ~2 soldiers
01:49 < Causeless> depends what they are defending against
01:49 < bwc153> I personally love the tough fights, I don't want to steamroll a defending force.
01:49 < Causeless> ot#s almost perfect as it is now
01:49 < Causeless> they should be absolutely horrible at defense
01:50 < Causeless> they should be bad enough though, that trying new tactics that surprise them aren't just easily countered constantly
01:50 < Causeless> you should be thinking of new appraoches constantly
01:50 < Causeless> if they can counter these all, there's no point in changing from the tried-and-true
01:50 < bwc153> The way you mention for "horrible at defense" then describe it, brings to mind complete different things.
01:51 < Causeless> hmm, lemme try and explain it
01:51 < bwc153> I feel they should be able to set up a solid defensive line, and react to incursions - but not superquickly, so a quick and decisive hit at a weak point can still do a lot of damage
01:51 < Causeless> they should be horrible in terms of prediction
01:51 < Causeless> is the easiest way to describe it
01:52 < Causeless> if you surprise them, if they have a bbig enough force they should still be able to take care of it and hold a defensive line
01:52 < Causeless> however, it'd cause a big blow
01:52 < Causeless> you see what I mean?
01:53 < bwc153> Thing is, there's no perfect defense, having the AI try and create one will - as humans do - leave natural weak points. :P
01:53 < Causeless> yes, but it should be exaggerated
01:54 < Causeless> these weak points should be very obvious
01:54 < Causeless> but not extensively weak, if that makes sense
01:54 < bwc153> Ever play Men of War?
01:54 < Causeless> for example, you should be able to say almost immediately, "these men are very vulnerable to flanking", and cause a big blow
01:54 < Causeless> but not steamroll them
01:54 < Causeless> I have not
01:55 < bwc153> Soldiers: Heroes of WW2, Faces of War?
01:55 < Causeless> nope
01:55 < bwc153> hmm
01:55 < bwc153> Well, first of all - you're missing out.  Second of all, I think you'd get a sense of some good defense styles from there.
01:55 < Causeless> examples?
01:56 < bwc153> Men of War focuses on realism (Faces of War and Soldiers to a lesser extent - but they're all part of the same series) but isn't full engagement ranges (IE: ranges are extrapolated, rifles shoot like 60-70m,
                tanks like 120m for biggest guns, etc.)
01:56 <@pasik> night guys
01:56 -!- pasik is now known as pasik_away
01:56 < bwc153> night, pasik_away
01:56 < Causeless> cya pasik
01:56 < bwc153> In a lot of the SP missions there are weak points you can exploit and such, but they're not immediately apparent.
01:57 < bwc153> The entire series is a tactical RTS (lower scale than Company of Heroes, even)
01:57 < bwc153> Every soldier and vehicle has an inventory.
01:57 < harr_work> men of micromanagement
01:58 < Causeless> I think that's slightly different than what I mean, in terms of their base defense etc they should have something similar to that
01:58 < bwc153> You'd have to play it to see it...
01:58 < Causeless> I'm talking more about open conflict, stuff that happens out of the blue
01:59 < bwc153> But for example, the most recent mission I played in Condemned Heroes (Newest Men of War, SP only) - the Germans have a defense line with an MG nest (which is manned) and about 12 soldiers in a trench.  You have
                8, you have to sneak around the back via some bushes - in between another defense line.
01:59 < bwc153> I ended up taking that trench with 2 casualties, as I'm a veteran of the series and know what I'm doing.  I watch other people do it and lose 7-8 guys.
02:00 < bwc153> I tried it wrongly first time (Trial and error FTW) and lost all my guys, the enemy manned 2 mortars (behind trench) and blew all my men up. :P
02:00 < Causeless> for example, you are in the middle of a street and stumble accross an enemy patrol, and almost immadietly you should notice some alleys to run through to confuse them and shoot from a different angle, or a
                   ladder to get the high ground and try shooting from above where they have little cover, and they should initially be very dumb and fail to properly react until they've been at least moderately damaged
02:00 < Causeless> you are talking more about stationary bases there
02:00 < Causeless> in which case, absolutely
02:01 < Causeless> defenses should seem inpenetratable at first glace, and have alternate routes or styles take a bit of prodding first
02:02 < Causeless> however, in balls-to-the-wall combat, sudden and not planned, you should be constantly running about hitting them from different angles, and doing different things
02:02 < bwc153> There's also situations where AI will reinforce a base, but often missions are static.
02:02 < Causeless> not hiding behind a wall and taking them off one by one
02:02 < Causeless> a reinforcement mechanic is a good idea for RWR, they rarel if ever call for reinforcements anywhere other than the front line it seems
02:02 < bwc153> Tactical AI in Men of War if left unchecked is a tad better than the RWR AI, but it's still bad.
02:03 < bwc153> They use cover a bit more, for sure.
02:03 < Causeless> but anyways, you see the point I'm trying to make?
02:03 < bwc153> Yeah
02:03 -!- RicksterEpicWin [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout]
02:03 < bwc153> My inital understanding of your point was you wanted AI's defending abilities to basically be gimped, and I was like "lolwut"?
02:04 < Causeless> sporadic panicky combat should reward the player in a different way than base attacks, pretty much
02:04 < Causeless> they should be pretty crappy at defending themselves if they don't see it coming
02:04 < Causeless> which may sound obvious, but you'd be surprised in terms of game AI
02:06 < bwc153> Only time I've seen AI seem prepared is in games who give AI LoS everywhere.
02:06 < bwc153> Men of War doesn't have any actual high level AI reasoning, AI acts entirely on a tactical level, so that's a nonissue.
02:06 < bwc153> Any missions where "high level" stuff is seen, it's scripted.
02:07 < Causeless> "prepared" isn't really the right word
02:07 < Causeless> they should intentionally show sume stupid actions
02:08 < Causeless> for example, coming out of cover to search for you instead of taking a passive quieter approach
02:08 < Causeless> a clever AI in this case would wait for you to pop out, then shoot at you as soon as you try anything
02:09 < Causeless> the funner AI would show some dumber (but still believeable) actions
02:09 < C4-Bot> from what i've gathered you seem to be sugesting a "element of surprise" factor
02:09 < C4-Bot> where the initial attack confuses the ai
02:09 < Causeless> partially, yeah, but also they should deliberately set themselves up to be surprised
02:10 < Causeless> anyways, it's late, and I gotta sleep
02:10 < Causeless> let's finish this here before I stay up all night :P
02:10 < Causeless> do you mind if I copy+paste this all to a pastebin and make a forum post?
02:11 < C4-Bot> sure
02:11 < C4-Bot> might need a few edits tho
02:11 < bwc153> sure, do what you wish. :P
02:12 < C4-Bot> as the first few dialoges are a little cryptic :P
02:12 < Causeless> I'll just copy paste right now, I'll structure te post into something coherent tomorrow
02:12 < bwc153> [20:08:09] <Causeless> for example, coming out of cover to search for you instead of taking a passive quieter approach
02:12 < bwc153> [20:08:36] <Causeless> a clever AI in this case would wait for you to pop out, then shoot at you as soon as you try anything
02:12 < bwc153> AI will do this in Men of War, search an area if someone shoots then disappears
02:12 < Causeless> yeah, exactly
02:13 < Causeless> a clever AI would scoit and surround the area, staying in cover
02:13 < Causeless> creating a noose of sorts
02:13 < Causeless> anyways, night!
02:13 < bwc153> Or if they die, basically if the source of gunfire goes away, and they suspect something's still there, they'll check.
02:14 < bwc153> also, not every army would naturally scout around staying in cover. That requires competent leadership on a few levels. :P
02:14 < C4-Bot> night Causeless!