[22:14:41] <sure> they can't explain why there is time
[22:14:44] <sure> to them
[22:14:54] <sure> its like the universe can be more complicated than what it could have been
[22:15:01] <sure> they don't have a principle of "efficiency" and "simplicity"
[22:15:06] <sure> and it doesn't shock thelm
[22:15:15] <sure> if there is no free will
[22:15:17] <sure> no consciousness
[22:15:20] <sure> there is just no need for time
[22:15:31] <sure> if all is deterministic
[22:15:33] <sure> who needs time?
[22:15:41] <sure> knowing the state at one time is like knowing everything at every time
[22:15:45] <sure> why would the universe have time ?
[22:15:53] <sure> if its probabilistic
[22:16:04] <sure> why would the universe "realize" one reality instead of the others
[22:16:29] <Millennial> most materialists will not deny the difficulty of these questions
[22:16:33] <Millennial> they will simply say
[22:16:35] <Millennial> "i don't know"
[22:16:40] <Millennial> i think you're conflating
[22:16:44] <Millennial> strawman materialists
[22:16:46] <Millennial> people who say
[22:16:50] <Millennial> "everything is material, period"
[22:17:01] <Millennial> with actual materialists, who are willing to consider the possibility that they might be wrong
[22:17:07] <sure> i never met any of them
[22:17:09] <Millennial> they just don't think they are, they haven't seen any evidence for it
[22:17:12] <sure> materialists are always very politized
[22:17:23] <Millennial> well
[22:17:23] <sure> being materialist is strongly correlated
[22:17:24] <Millennial> that's because
[22:17:25] <sure> to being leftist
[22:17:27] <Millennial> materialism has been hijacked
[22:17:29] <Millennial> by marxists
[22:17:31] <sure> yes
[22:17:40] <sure> i could even ask them
[22:17:43] <sure> "what is space and time ?"
[22:17:45] <sure> this is no matter
[22:17:46] <sure> yet
[22:17:51] <sure> you have very good reason to believe
[22:17:54] <sure> that space and time exists
[22:18:16] <Millennial> i don't think you can answer "what is time?" either way
[22:18:20] <Millennial> if you're not a materialist
[22:18:29] <Millennial> you still really don't know what time is
[22:18:35] <sure> no
[22:18:38] <sure> but thats not what i asked
[22:18:39] <sure> i asked
[22:18:42] <sure> "why is there even time ?"
[22:18:48] <sure> why is there time instead of no time ?
[22:18:59] <sure> i'm not asking what is time, i'm asking of the necessity of time
[22:19:08] <sure> if you believe in determinism
[22:19:11] <sure> there is no need for time
[22:19:21] <sure> why would the universe introduce an additionnal and useless variable ?
[22:19:35] <sure> all the information is already contained at one instant
[22:19:38] <sure> why would the universe bother
[22:19:40] <sure> to even have time ?
[22:19:47] <sure> it "breaks" the principle of "efficiency"
[22:19:47] <Millennial> you said
[22:19:51] <Millennial> "what if it is probabilistic"
[22:19:51] <Millennial> though
[22:20:07] <sure> if its probabilistic, why would the universe still "realize" one branch of the giant tree instead of all ?
[22:20:16] <Millennial> who knows
[22:20:25] <sure> you can beleive in "all"
[22:20:26] <sure> but then
[22:20:30] <sure> you enter in everette interpretation
[22:20:33] <sure> where there is no time either
[22:20:36] <sure> only snapshot
[22:20:39] <sure> there is no "flow"
[22:20:48] <sure> and yet, we experience a "flow of time"
[22:20:50] <sure> how comes ?
[22:21:22] <sure> if you believe in "maximum efficiency"
[22:21:23] <sure> ie
[22:21:23] <Millennial> how do you answer this question
[22:21:30] <sure> time is here because it is necessary
[22:21:37] <sure> necessary, what for ?
[22:21:39] <sure> for free will to exist
[22:21:42] <sure> that's how i answer it
[22:21:43] <sure> the universe
[22:21:45] <sure> is not "aware"
[22:21:47] <sure> of our choices
[22:21:52] <sure> its waiting for us to choose
[22:21:53] <sure> where it has to go
[22:21:59] <sure> time is just here to allow free will
[22:22:52] <sure> the univese is the rules of the game
[22:22:55] <sure> we are the players
[22:23:04] <sure> and if the universe is the game master
[22:23:06] <sure> he has no idea
[22:23:09] <sure> what hte players are going to play
[22:23:12] <sure> at each moment
[22:23:19] <sure> he just contrains them
[22:23:36] <sure> and he can't even make any intervention (no divine intervention possible)
[22:23:48] <sure> so its like time is here for free will to exist, and the universe is repecting freewill whatever happens
[22:23:57] <sure> this even answer teh "problem of evil" by religious people
[22:24:01] <sure> "if there is god, why is there evil ?"
[22:24:10] <sure> because if god is, its not the good that he respects the most
[22:24:12] <sure> its free will
[22:25:08] <sure> if you believe that, then you're ready to believe that any kind of "matter" is alive too
[22:25:09] <sure> ie
[22:25:13] <sure> has some weak form of free will
[22:25:32] <sure> this can even explain the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics
[22:25:36] <sure> you measure 1000 spins
[22:25:39] <sure> you find 50% up, 50% down
[22:25:42] <sure> its just statitsics
[22:25:44] <sure> ;>