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Day 5 C

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May 7th, 2014
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  1. [5/1/2014 12:00:08 AM] bo.elder: Guys, I'm about to turn into a pumpkin, but I look forward to reading the scrollback manana...
  2. [5/1/2014 12:00:13 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Ok. I'd like to see this alliance focus on the things that made gents the most fun. Back in stain when we fought out numbered and out gunned. We were effective, had a huge amount of fun, and were vital to the overall effort without being in the huge blobs. I'd like to see this alliance ficus on that kind of skirmish activities. Not elite pvp. Just focus on disruption, quick reaction, highly mobile.
  3. [5/1/2014 12:00:46 AM] Siggon.k: from what we've seen in gsf, the corps that have a strong corp identity do much better than those without. well, corp identity coupled with active leadership.
  4. [5/1/2014 12:01:20 AM] Siggon.k: however, the alliance itself is way too big to have any singular identity, hence my oft repeated goons in space thing
  5. [5/1/2014 12:02:20 AM] Siggon.k: so something like what you suggest could easily be a thing, a highly mobile thing that we can deploy to hotspots
  6. [5/1/2014 12:02:31 AM] Siggon.k: that's actually something we could really use
  7. [5/1/2014 12:02:36 AM] Siggon.k: as an aside
  8. [5/1/2014 12:02:50 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Yes.
  9. [5/1/2014 12:03:23 AM] Siggon.k: the weird thing about identity is that it can scale. like you can be a gsf member, and a blackops guy, and an eg guy. all have totally different identities
  10. [5/1/2014 12:03:43 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Even operate mostly deployed. Moving from Don to region. Looking for fight s or helping control or suppress activity
  11. [5/1/2014 12:03:52 AM] Siggon.k: but at the end of the day, you're flying with people you like and leadership you respect
  12. [5/1/2014 12:04:06 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: *region to region
  13. [5/1/2014 12:04:26 AM] Siggon.k: going back to that aside, I'd kill to have a competent fast reaction force right now
  14. [5/1/2014 12:06:09 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: :) I think about 6 corps represented here would be very interested in that
  15. [5/1/2014 12:06:17 AM] Nova Rain: Personally, I think "nullsec PvP without the hassle" is one of the better selling points and identity pillars for this new alliance. It's fairly close to unironically being free from the shackles of sov from how you're descriving it.
  16. [5/1/2014 12:06:35 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Also agreed
  17. [5/1/2014 12:06:48 AM] Siggon.k: nullsec pvp without the hassle
  18. [5/1/2014 12:06:54 AM] Siggon.k: huh
  19. [5/1/2014 12:06:59 AM] Siggon.k: yeah, it could work
  20. [5/1/2014 12:07:58 AM] Siggon.k: I have to go to sleep because I'm getting angry glares from the wife, but if you guys kick it around and see what you think of it, I'll catch up on it in the morning
  21. [5/1/2014 12:13:03 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: K. I just got to work
  22. [5/1/2014 12:13:58 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Is there anyone else we want to bring into this discussion? Li3 guys?
  23. [5/1/2014 6:20:15 AM] Gigaplex: Ah i see, the US-TZ is much more active here then EU :)
  24.  
  25. The question of the culture of the alliance is something, that is decided mostly by the line members, because leadership has only a little impact on the day-to-day behaviour of the members.
  26.  
  27. Every time a new Corp joins the alliance it will bring it's own culture in the alliance and will change it own culture and the culture of the alliance a little over time.
  28. [5/1/2014 6:29:12 AM] Gigaplex: so the culture question will be a questions that has to be solved in the day to day live.
  29. The GENTS culture in this current form won't survive entirely in the new alliance but will have a big impact on the new alliance
  30. [5/1/2014 7:29:32 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I think part of what I'm pushing for in some respect is a clear identity that is distinct from GSF. There are lots of people who are happy to fight with the CFC, while not being part of the GSF. If the alliance is to be just an extension of the GSF, there are many people who will have reservations about being in the alliance. For better or worse, GSF is very polarizing (P0LRizing - gosh Kesper would be proud) and while some are content to fight for the CFC, being more closely identified as a Goon might be more than some are willing to accept. Given that this alliance is to in some case play safety net for corps that get disenfranchised from other non-GSF alliances, it might be worthwhile to make certain that we identify that this alliance is distinct from the GSF. I don't know that I understand psychology enough to know exactly how to accomplish that difference in perception, but I think its a piece of the puzzle that needs to be addressed at some point.
  31. [5/1/2014 7:29:53 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: back to what the alliance can and should do on a day to day basis.
  32. [5/1/2014 7:30:31 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Since most corps are tied strongly to their space for infrastructure purposes, it limits the ability to be really flexible with deployments and such
  33. [5/1/2014 7:31:15 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: if we can focus this alliance on being the QRF for the CFC, and sell the fact that we are PVP without the anchor of sov Maintenance, that is something that is going to be really appealing to many people
  34. [5/1/2014 7:31:22 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: not just small gang activity
  35. [5/1/2014 7:32:50 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: but effective, skirmish force that can react and deploy independently of the CFC as a whole to be used as a distraction force, second front, rear guard, advance force, or any other of a number of force projection devices.
  36. [5/1/2014 7:34:17 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: While not deployed, the alliance could focus on group cohesion, operating in low sec or other areas, either trying to destabilize an area for a larger action, or just out pushing buttons to get a reaction.
  37. [5/1/2014 7:35:23 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: SOme of the members may want to fly in blue space and guard the low sec entrances like P3EN, and E-O, but I think we can structure the alliance to give it quitr a bit more activity than simply gate camps and blue space roaming
  38. [5/1/2014 7:35:51 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: we'll need a core of active and independent FCs
  39. [5/1/2014 7:36:37 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Than was something we developed a bit in GENTS, but never got them fully independent or active enough to get fleet activity on a daily basis.
  40. [5/1/2014 7:36:51 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: But I think that was more a function of our space, than the FCs
  41. [5/1/2014 7:37:37 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: If we are deployed, and independent, the activity is generated by the FCs. since we would spend more time in hostile areas than in blue areas, or in border areas.
  42. [5/1/2014 7:37:48 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: still, a strong FC core is going to be key
  43. [5/1/2014 7:38:17 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: FLexible doctrines are also going to be helpful.
  44. [5/1/2014 7:38:56 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: one of the strengths of the GETNS doctrines was their ability to fight outclassed to some degree. THat is an aspect I'd like to see perpetuated in this allaince
  45. [5/1/2014 7:39:38 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I'm not advocating either the number of doctrines or the frequency that we might have changed them, but the overall concepts were sound, even if they were numerous.
  46. [5/1/2014 7:41:28 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: By pulling initially from GENTS and Li3, plus other faltering alliances (and even from GSF itself, if there were corps that were interested in getting some physical distance from the GSF machine and culture) we'd have a decent sized force that spans at least 2 TZs effectively
  47. [5/1/2014 7:41:45 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: maybe on the order of 1000 - 1250 chars to start?
  48. [5/1/2014 7:41:54 AM] Symbiotes: ^ I like a lot of what I read above, though I would caution about having no sov at all, some sov is really handy for those of us doing industry to try and support our corporations
  49. [5/1/2014 7:42:14 AM] Gigaplex: and sov is important to have a reason to fight for
  50. [5/1/2014 7:42:32 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: in any case, we need to begin to flesh this stuff out if we want to give people a reason to stick around and wait for this to get going.
  51. [5/1/2014 7:42:40 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Sym - sov will be necessary
  52. [5/1/2014 7:42:52 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: PI and tower farms will need it
  53. [5/1/2014 7:43:11 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: but the overall footprint will be very small compared to other alliances.
  54. [5/1/2014 7:43:24 AM] Gigaplex: if the CFC gets under pressure, why should i take full effort to fight for it, when i don't have my own home under attack
  55. [5/1/2014 7:43:34 AM] Symbiotes: I like the idea of a small footprint
  56. [5/1/2014 7:43:44 AM] Symbiotes: and rapid deployments
  57. [5/1/2014 7:43:47 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: just enough owned sov to allow the farms and PI folks to do what they need, and enough space for the supercap folks to build
  58. [5/1/2014 7:43:47 AM] Gigaplex: that's my main concern why we must have sov
  59. [5/1/2014 7:43:50 AM] Symbiotes: thats something I always liked about our past
  60. [5/1/2014 7:44:42 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I think this is an opportunity for a bit of a pivot away from the concept of "this is my home"
  61. [5/1/2014 7:44:56 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: We'd be fighting for the CFC as an entity
  62. [5/1/2014 7:45:03 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: not so much for the space we occupy
  63. [5/1/2014 7:45:12 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: since we might be in a lot of different places
  64. [5/1/2014 7:45:20 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: again - just thinking out loud
  65. [5/1/2014 7:45:26 AM] Gigaplex: i don't think, that this will work in the long term to motivate people
  66. [5/1/2014 7:46:22 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: the problem with home space is that it gets awfully quiet
  67. [5/1/2014 7:46:24 AM] Symbiotes: worked for the longest time for gents, until we got lazy and complacent in vale, having too much sov and being too spread out
  68. [5/1/2014 7:46:35 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: and then its really hard to get people to be active again
  69. [5/1/2014 7:46:44 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: ^^
  70. [5/1/2014 7:46:58 AM] Symbiotes: branch wasn't ideal, but at least everyone was close together so that mitigated some of it
  71. [5/1/2014 7:47:39 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: if we spent a lot of time deployed we'd most certainly be concentrated in a very small area
  72. [5/1/2014 7:48:04 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: the concepts of multiple alts for scouting, and effective well flown fleet comps rally matters
  73. [5/1/2014 7:48:05 AM] Symbiotes: I also believe that living more together can help develop a shared culture better
  74. [5/1/2014 7:48:12 AM] Symbiotes: and influence our overall quality
  75. [5/1/2014 7:48:17 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: agreed
  76. [5/1/2014 7:48:20 AM] Symbiotes: because people will more easily be able to support each other
  77. [5/1/2014 7:48:32 AM] Symbiotes: and our good guys might get more people on their training lessons and fleets ;)
  78. [5/1/2014 7:48:43 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: gigaplex - not sure who you are - are you a GENT?
  79. [5/1/2014 7:49:46 AM] Symbiotes: yeah Giga is Kim
  80. [5/1/2014 7:49:53 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: ahh - kk
  81. [5/1/2014 7:50:12 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: man this separate coms is tough - lol
  82. [5/1/2014 7:51:12 AM] Symbiotes: ^^ but the record of discussion helps, prevents some double stuff maybe and makes sure none of us miss out on anything important, gotta get a good feel about where this is heading
  83. [5/1/2014 7:52:44 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: yes - I logged in on my computer and go the entire back log - which is nice
  84. [5/1/2014 7:53:09 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I use my phone a lot - but clearly typing is better for getting out more complex thoughts
  85. [5/1/2014 7:53:36 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: in any case - I'd like to move the discussion to start to pinpoint the things we want to be able to do, and how we want to do them
  86. [5/1/2014 7:53:39 AM] Gigaplex: yeah i have to get used to Skype as com, too :)
  87. [5/1/2014 7:57:06 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: if we get a say in the footprint, I'd vote for 3 constellations max, and maybe just 2. Building off of the GENTS locations, the constellation with TVN- would be my first choice, and recognizing that the Indy guys need secure space and easy access to HS, I thing the N-H pocket also makes sense to have
  88. [5/1/2014 7:57:46 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: if we had a 3rd, depending on how large the alliance actually is - then I'd add the MY- pocket.
  89. [5/1/2014 7:58:18 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: but i'd forgo the lower pocket, and the systems further east.
  90. [5/1/2014 7:59:09 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: that keeps us focused on the pipes in and out of vale, and give the indy guys decent space to do their thing, Ice, roids, and couple fo dead end systems to use
  91. [5/1/2014 7:59:38 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: TVN- still is the natural choke point, so it makes sense to keep that as the alliance HQ
  92. [5/1/2014 8:00:11 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: that would mean that P3 would need to be alliance space as well - for the JB to work
  93. [5/1/2014 8:02:51 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: so - that would be the 5yHF constellation and the BUG6- constellation
  94. [5/1/2014 8:36:50 AM | Edited 8:37:04 AM] Endie H: Chance, you can rename people to appear as whatever you like on skype
  95. [5/1/2014 8:37:22 AM] Endie H: On the left of the window, in the contacts list, right click and choose "rename"
  96. [5/1/2014 8:40:59 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Ahh. Cool
  97. [5/1/2014 8:43:57 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Hmm not on phone i guess. But I'll look when ii Hey back to computer
  98. [5/1/2014 8:45:31 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Endie any thoughts on who the lead corp will be?
  99. [5/1/2014 8:48:16 AM] Siggon.k: lead corp?
  100. [5/1/2014 8:49:05 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Founding corp. Sov holder. Executor corp.
  101. [5/1/2014 8:49:14 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Not sure the correct term
  102. [5/1/2014 8:50:10 AM] Gigaplex: I think it will be [Insert Alliance Name here] Holding / Exec etc.
  103. [5/1/2014 8:50:39 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Ahh freshly minted corp
  104. [5/1/2014 8:50:59 AM] Siggon.k: yeah, holding corp of some kind
  105. [5/1/2014 8:52:48 AM] Symbiotes: I doubt it will be the same as it was in gents with prax being the main corp and caretaker of sov for most of our run while Kesper ran the outposts-holding executor corp
  106. [5/1/2014 8:52:57 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Are there other people who want to include in the conversation ? As in other corp directors. Or do we want to just keep it as CEOs at the moment.
  107. [5/1/2014 8:53:17 AM] Symbiotes: I think we're missing plenty of CEO's
  108. [5/1/2014 8:53:38 AM] Symbiotes: might want to get reps from each corp that is considering the meta alliance
  109. [5/1/2014 8:53:41 AM] Siggon.k: just ceo's, though you're welcome to pass on information to your director guys and solicit their input
  110. [5/1/2014 8:53:53 AM] Symbiotes: imho doesn't have to be a ceo char, if a director can speak for them and has more time to talk with us
  111. [5/1/2014 8:54:08 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: We invited everybody on the first day
  112. [5/1/2014 8:54:42 AM] Siggon.k: the ones I know we're missing is zebr (who I can't get ahold of) and f-s-j (who are definitely going to tnt)
  113. [5/1/2014 8:55:17 AM] Siggon.k: if there's any other corps I missed, let me know so I can add them in
  114. [5/1/2014 8:56:52 AM] Endie H: Yeah the chances of the holding corp being a pre-2009-chic actualy corp with people in it are pretty low
  115. [5/1/2014 9:02:39 AM] Symbiotes: lets see... I see prax p0lr snre arma ohcrp farsc
  116. [5/1/2014 9:02:53 AM] Symbiotes: I think Bo represents empin, but not sure on that one
  117. [5/1/2014 9:02:58 AM] Symbiotes: confusing names nd all ^^
  118. [5/1/2014 9:03:05 AM] Gigaplex: i try to get ZEBR in here
  119. [5/1/2014 9:03:10 AM] Symbiotes: I don't see kazo or tfn..
  120. [5/1/2014 9:03:34 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Zebr and kazoo are off to tnt.
  121. [5/1/2014 9:03:38 AM] Symbiotes: nor airk tetic ybox or boin4
  122. [5/1/2014 9:03:54 AM] Gigaplex: maybe they didn't get the ping?
  123. [5/1/2014 9:04:13 AM] Siggon.k: zebr is planning on staying, I just can't get in contact with their ceo guy
  124. [5/1/2014 9:04:21 AM] Symbiotes: might be good to do another ping to dapper in that case
  125. [5/1/2014 9:04:33 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Locii is their CEO
  126. [5/1/2014 9:04:38 AM] Gigaplex: sometimes i don't get all pings in the backlog
  127. [5/1/2014 9:05:01 AM] Gigaplex: or overread one when there are many many pings
  128. [5/1/2014 9:05:08 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I know ybox wants to come
  129. [5/1/2014 9:05:13 AM] Gigaplex: like towers crying
  130. [5/1/2014 9:05:31 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Ok. I can send a new ping.
  131. [5/1/2014 9:05:56 AM] Siggon.k: I keep missing locii, and he's busy with real life it sounds like
  132. [5/1/2014 9:06:20 AM] Gigaplex: maybe we should habe Tash Murka then instead of locii if locii is busy?
  133. [5/1/2014 9:08:38 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Ping dapper if you are a CEO and have not contacted sion to be included in the ongoing discussion regarding the new alliance, please pm him on jabber for invite.
  134.  
  135. OK by you?
  136. [5/1/2014 9:08:53 AM] Gigaplex: ok
  137. [5/1/2014 9:09:31 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Do we have a prax rep?
  138. [5/1/2014 9:09:56 AM] Symbiotes: yeah Michael is here at times, I think
  139. [5/1/2014 9:10:18 AM] Symbiotes: oh and I missed Attoy completely, hiding in the top of the list
  140. [5/1/2014 9:10:22 AM] Symbiotes: so ybox is represent
  141. [5/1/2014 9:10:48 AM] Siggon.k: lake is still non-responsive, so oceansea was added in in his stead
  142. [5/1/2014 9:11:04 AM] Siggon.k: though I don't anticipate prax will join this new thing either
  143. [5/1/2014 9:11:36 AM] Siggon.k: could have sworn we had a kazo guy in here hrm
  144. [5/1/2014 9:12:19 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: New ping sent just in case. I thought we had most everyone
  145. [5/1/2014 9:12:41 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Any thoughts on my wall of texts?
  146. [5/1/2014 9:12:45 AM] Gigaplex: yeah the different names make things confusing
  147. [5/1/2014 9:13:03 AM] Gigaplex: do we have any LI3 Guy in here?
  148. [5/1/2014 9:13:24 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: No li3. That I know of
  149. [5/1/2014 9:13:31 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I asked yest
  150. [5/1/2014 9:16:26 AM] Siggon.k: li3 probably doesn't know anything about this other than rumors
  151. [5/1/2014 9:16:43 AM] Siggon.k: none of that has been worked on at all, still very much up in the air
  152. [5/1/2014 9:18:34 AM] Symbiotes: have mixed feelings on including them here and now, reaching consensus with these two parties might be easier before we try and add another party, yet I also feel that anyone likely to be included in this project might want to have some influence or at least the ability to field questions/suggestions
  153. [5/1/2014 9:18:41 AM] Gigaplex: ah ok, i understood that LI3 is collapsing right now. Then it was my mistake
  154. [5/1/2014 9:20:44 AM] Siggon.k: if it makes you feel any better, there's no expectation that there will be any kind of consensus on this
  155. [5/1/2014 9:21:01 AM] Siggon.k: one of the benefits of autocracy
  156. [5/1/2014 9:21:51 AM] Siggon.k: I don't see a lot of discussion about nova's nullsec pvp without the hassle idea in scrollback
  157. [5/1/2014 9:22:28 AM] Symbiotes: I'm hoping there's going to be consensus between you guys as our new leaders, wouldn't dare suggesting I have to agree for it to be ok ;)
  158. [5/1/2014 9:22:46 AM] Symbiotes: I think most of us are interested in a sleek agile form of alliance
  159. [5/1/2014 9:23:09 AM] Symbiotes: but the exact implementation of that is where it gets harder I guess
  160. [5/1/2014 9:24:25 AM] Symbiotes: a balance of how much sov, what services we can leech off gsol heroes etc.
  161. [5/1/2014 9:24:44 AM] Siggon.k: what do you think about building it around an idea of 'nullsec pvp without the hassle'?
  162. [5/1/2014 9:26:12 AM] Symbiotes: I like that, as long as people like me that are more industrially focused have the options to support our corporations with that part ;)
  163. [5/1/2014 9:26:19 AM] Symbiotes: I think as a marketing idea it would definitely work
  164. [5/1/2014 9:26:37 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I discussed this earlier, and with my corp, its the concept they like the most
  165. [5/1/2014 9:26:52 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: what we do with that is what I was trying to work on
  166. [5/1/2014 9:27:33 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: more than one of my corp members is concerned about being seen as just a pet
  167. [5/1/2014 9:28:13 AM] Siggon.k: I think what we do if we go with that is build a pvp focused organization with structures to support that. which is doable, as that's what gsf is
  168. [5/1/2014 9:28:14 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: the focus in a mobile skirmish force gives us leverage away from being perceived as just a subsidiary of GSF
  169. [5/1/2014 9:28:34 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: since its a totally different model of operation that the blue blob
  170. [5/1/2014 9:29:15 AM] Siggon.k: well, no matter what people on the outside are going to see and call this new thing as a pet. they say that about cfc alliances like gents already
  171. [5/1/2014 9:29:34 AM] Siggon.k: that's entirely unavoidable
  172. [5/1/2014 9:29:58 AM] Siggon.k: what's important is that the people inside don't feel like pets, and aren't treated like pets
  173. [5/1/2014 9:30:14 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: agreed
  174. [5/1/2014 9:30:15 AM] Siggon.k: personally, I hate the word, and I hate the concept
  175. [5/1/2014 9:31:42 AM] Siggon.k: realistically, this new alliance thing would almost certainly function the same as any other cfc alliance: very little demands placed on it outside of a proper bloc war, free to do whatever as you see fit during downtime. now, if what you see fit to do is build up a fighting org that can be deployed to hotspots to crush people
  176. [5/1/2014 9:31:58 AM] Siggon.k: well, that would be kinda awesome
  177. [5/1/2014 9:32:05 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: :)
  178. [5/1/2014 9:32:10 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: my guys are all set for that
  179. [5/1/2014 9:32:33 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: and others I've talked to about what we might be able to do here are as well
  180. [5/1/2014 9:34:00 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: that kind of focused activity would be quite a bit of fun - not like sitting arounf waiting for the next neutral group to wander into home space.
  181. [5/1/2014 9:34:26 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: by being out and more proactive, the FCs will be needed to really keep momentum
  182. [5/1/2014 9:34:38 AM] Siggon.k: yeah, and you wouldn't have to worry about space politics either
  183. [5/1/2014 9:35:07 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: we cant go out, then sit and wait for something to develop. they FCs need paramaters, but need the autonomy to just pull the fleet together and go
  184. [5/1/2014 9:36:39 AM] Siggon.k: autonomous is good. in general, mittani gives people a broad set of goals as marching orders and let's people accomplish it as they wish. so in this case, that might be something like "help the sw cfc crush lucia and pasta" or "go make hero's lives miserable"
  185. [5/1/2014 9:37:18 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: If we use the GENTS FCs, most of our rookie FCs had gotten very good with our cruisers and HAC doctrines, in addition to Harpies, and inties, and our Retributions. We'd have a [retty decent FC corps to build of off, given the right conditions
  186. [5/1/2014 9:38:11 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: our Junior FCs had developed pretty well - but we'd had limited exposure to more straight up fights - which we would see more of, I hope
  187. [5/1/2014 9:38:28 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: so some tactical awareness training is going to be needed
  188. [5/1/2014 9:40:09 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: and ENdie - i cant see how to manually change a name now that I'm on my laptop. Im using W8 in full screen, no options I can see for individual name resets
  189. [5/1/2014 9:42:46 AM] Symbiotes: need to add everyone to your contacts, and then you can rename them depending on the client
  190. [5/1/2014 9:45:12 AM] Endie H: lawl windows 8
  191. [5/1/2014 9:45:17 AM] Endie H: You're on your own, kid
  192. [5/1/2014 9:46:20 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: heh - i'm old fashioned, I'll just write down a list somewhere that I can lose later
  193. [5/1/2014 9:49:20 AM] Endie H: Less chance that way of a chance screenshot of your game client showing, in the background, that you've renamed someone "rumpleforeskin"
  194. [5/1/2014 9:49:38 AM] Endie H: (Sorry Sion it just helps me remember you better)
  195. [5/1/2014 9:53:17 AM] Siggon.k: surprised you noticed, what with me coming in from behind and all
  196. [5/1/2014 9:54:06 AM] Gigaplex: you have the guy add ass contact to change his name
  197. [5/1/2014 9:54:10 AM] Gigaplex: *as
  198. [5/1/2014 9:55:27 AM] *** Siggon.k added wilkco -AIRK ***
  199. [5/1/2014 9:56:28 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Apophis Encounter [-AE-] (name optional - obviously)
  200. Null CFC Space Alliance - All the PVP action you want without the hassle of maintaining the Sov.
  201. Outmanned, behind the lines, first in line to the fight - looking for a little more excitement in your PVP, fly with APOPHIS, and fly with some of the best CFC corps in a new paradigm in alliance structure and operation.
  202. [5/1/2014 9:57:30 AM] Siggon.k: so hrm. does anyone have any objections to framing this around nullsec pvp without the hassle?
  203. [5/1/2014 9:59:00 AM] Siggon.k: it would give a "why" of "to have fun and shoot dudes" and an identity of "nullsec pvp without the hassle"
  204. [5/1/2014 10:00:31 AM] Siggon.k: okay, well, if you do have an objection, feel free to raise it later, or if you have an idea for something different
  205. [5/1/2014 10:00:53 AM] Siggon.k: as is, I think you're right in wanting to switch over to what nullsec without the hassle would look like chance
  206. [5/1/2014 10:02:55 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: id like to use that as the working basis of the alliance and move forward to work on other aspects - as i'm not sure we can get buy in from folks until we have a better grasp of what we going to do on a day to day basis.
  207. If we can demonstrate that logging in might actually result in more daily combat, as opposed to using trusty JFs and Rorquals to service towers and such, we can generate some genuine excitement.
  208. [5/1/2014 10:03:31 AM] Symbiotes: I agree completely with that message as long as it doesn't forbid such trusty jf or rorqual based side activities ^^ have heard some of us want to start daytripping more into wormholes and other such activities
  209. [5/1/2014 10:04:17 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: i posted above that I thought the core constellations should be TVN- and the BUG6 const
  210. [5/1/2014 10:04:24 AM] wilkco.thefirst: the main thing to have is a good direction you want to take the allaince and make sure everything is aimed towards that
  211. [5/1/2014 10:04:30 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: that gives us a power base in vale and an idy base in cale
  212. [5/1/2014 10:04:32 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: *vale
  213. [5/1/2014 10:04:59 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: we need enough sov to give the indy guys what they nee
  214. [5/1/2014 10:05:13 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: since that is mostly in BUG6 now, may as well keep it there
  215. [5/1/2014 10:05:49 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: and TVN is still the choke point for Vale, so it makes sense to keep that constellation as wel
  216. [5/1/2014 10:06:33 AM] Gigaplex: what i missed in GENTs was a cheap throw away doctrine with allrounders, which can used to get comfortable with the whole fc thing
  217. [5/1/2014 10:06:40 AM] Gigaplex: like T1 Cruisers or BC's
  218. [5/1/2014 10:06:50 AM] Gigaplex: not ScyFy
  219. [5/1/2014 10:07:27 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: more sov than that probably not needed, if we are out and about. Also - if we have access to blue space in general for ratting activities as needed, which we discussed earlier, we don't have to make certain that there is ample room locally. FOlks can set up their ratting alts wherever is convenient for them, not necessarily at home base.
  220. [5/1/2014 10:08:04 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: We had it for a while - and the scyfi fleet was supposed to be that.
  221. [5/1/2014 10:08:10 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: we had carcals for a while
  222. [5/1/2014 10:08:16 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: and we had moas
  223. [5/1/2014 10:08:32 AM] Siggon.k: it's probably a good bet that this new thing will have sov over some of that core space of tvn and around, for just the reasons you say. there's no desire to quash industrial dudes, and no reason to either. if that's what people find fun, and so long as a corps stats are good or if they provide essential services to the alliance, it's no worries
  224. [5/1/2014 10:08:39 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: but the game moved away from those, and we had isk to replace losses
  225. [5/1/2014 10:08:56 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: what we'll need now is a solid pvp platform that we are ok taking losses in
  226. [5/1/2014 10:09:08 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: one that can fight outnumbered
  227. [5/1/2014 10:09:17 AM] Siggon.k: cheap doctrines or more disposable learning doctrines are definitely a positive
  228. [5/1/2014 10:09:21 AM] Gigaplex: Hurricanes! :D
  229. [5/1/2014 10:09:28 AM] wilkco.thefirst: something like stabbers or ruptures would be a good way t ogo
  230. [5/1/2014 10:09:52 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: the Cerbs do that well, but with t1 doctrines, you wind up with either not quite enough punch or DPS, or both
  231. [5/1/2014 10:10:09 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Ruppies are nice
  232. [5/1/2014 10:10:09 AM] wilkco.thefirst: but it is good for junior fc's to fly
  233. [5/1/2014 10:10:25 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: what would be nice is a doctrine that can be upgraded easily
  234. [5/1/2014 10:10:44 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: mixing some of the more powerful ships in with the t1s
  235. [5/1/2014 10:10:50 AM] wilkco.thefirst: nothing to bad if they loss a fleet but allows them to deveolp skills with the big fleets
  236. [5/1/2014 10:10:52 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: T1s wind up being about numbers
  237. [5/1/2014 10:11:10 AM] wilkco.thefirst: and that is what we need to get back to
  238. [5/1/2014 10:11:20 AM] Siggon.k: peacetime reimbursement would be a thing too
  239. [5/1/2014 10:11:40 AM] *** Siggon.k added Martin Wojas ***
  240. [5/1/2014 10:11:44 AM] Gigaplex: how is this peacetime/ strat op reimbursement working?
  241. [5/1/2014 10:11:48 AM] Gigaplex: i never got that
  242. [5/1/2014 10:12:27 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: i'd like to see us keep the doctrines small - and relatively close to the GSF doctrines to avoid having to haul lots of ships all over the place
  243. [5/1/2014 10:12:52 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: no one is going to want to haul 2 or 3 carrier loads of ships all over the place
  244. [5/1/2014 10:13:12 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: its a hassle, and makes it hard to get in place and ready to fight quikcly
  245. [5/1/2014 10:14:26 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: the guys who just joimed, can you post your EVE names?
  246. [5/1/2014 10:14:33 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Paul and Sneak?
  247. [5/1/2014 10:14:46 AM] Siggon.k: peacetime reimbursement is a baseline payout for people who run things like home defense gangs, roams, whatever. it tends to be slightly different rates, but ensures that anytime someone loses a ship in pvp they get paid for it
  248. [5/1/2014 10:14:49 AM] wilkco.thefirst: should be changed now
  249. [5/1/2014 10:14:58 AM] wilkco.thefirst: wilkco was paul
  250. [5/1/2014 10:16:24 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Gents reimbursed anything lost fighting in a fleet run by and FC
  251. [5/1/2014 10:16:33 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: we just had 1 rate
  252. [5/1/2014 10:16:40 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: and updated it weekly
  253. [5/1/2014 10:17:10 AM] Siggon.k: fighting at all is covered by peacetime stuff in gsf, even solo ganking
  254. [5/1/2014 10:17:38 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: one of our guys built a spreadsheet that had all the fittings and such tied to the evemarket data, so once a week we'd update the reimbursement pricing.
  255. [5/1/2014 10:17:55 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: ahh - nice - we did not cover solo stuff
  256. [5/1/2014 10:17:58 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: that was up to the corps
  257. [5/1/2014 10:18:19 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: so - presumably we'd be covering everything, as GSF does - cool
  258. [5/1/2014 10:18:23 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: folks will like that
  259. [5/1/2014 10:18:58 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I love my Deimos - now I wont have to worry as much when I lose my Deimost, Rpaier, Falcon trio
  260. [5/1/2014 10:19:05 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: :)
  261. [5/1/2014 10:19:48 AM] Siggon.k: incentivizing pvp is a big thing to us, as is space socialism
  262. [5/1/2014 10:19:58 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: in GSF - are the sigs setting up their own doctrines, in addition to the unified doctrines?
  263. [5/1/2014 10:20:15 AM] Siggon.k: sigs often have their own doctrines
  264. [5/1/2014 10:20:26 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: k - so we'd be free to develop a set that works for us
  265. [5/1/2014 10:20:53 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: so - T1 cruisers, or a dessie gang - I'd love to see a dessie gang doctrine
  266. [5/1/2014 10:21:13 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: we ran a few Thrasher fleets - love those
  267. [5/1/2014 10:21:52 AM] Gigaplex: i would like to see T1 Dual prop Armor Cruisers^^
  268. [5/1/2014 10:22:00 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: who was sneak? El Sneako?
  269. [5/1/2014 10:24:27 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: one of the things I found tiresome in GENTS was the waiting for something to happen - either waiting for neutrals, or waiting for someone to set up a roam. If we operate more or less permanently deployed, and have to operate in closer proximity to hostiles, we wont have the need to wait around for activity
  270. [5/1/2014 10:24:57 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: if we work closely with the Skyteam - we can poke in places that need poking, or respond to areas that seem to be detabilizing
  271. [5/1/2014 10:25:07 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: less station spinning, more shooting
  272. [5/1/2014 10:29:03 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Symbiotes, how do you want to see activity developed for this alliance?
  273. [5/1/2014 10:29:09 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Gig?
  274. [5/1/2014 10:29:59 AM] Symbiotes: sorry I gotta run for a dinner appointment, else they eat all the bbq without me -.- I'll toss in feedback later!
  275. [5/1/2014 10:30:11 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: o/
  276. [5/1/2014 10:31:12 AM] Gigaplex: what we need are little goal to work for to get activity, besides being the QRF
  277. [5/1/2014 10:31:41 AM] Gigaplex: something like having some dudes we want to punch the faces again and again
  278. [5/1/2014 10:31:48 AM] Gigaplex: like Black Core Alliance :)
  279. [5/1/2014 10:32:22 AM] Gigaplex: It's working well in my corp
  280. [5/1/2014 10:32:24 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: a couple of guy looking at the maps and keeping us moving around to new spots to shoot it up would be great
  281. [5/1/2014 10:34:07 AM] Siggon.k: well that's the one nice thing, lots of people hate us so there's always someone to punch in the face
  282. [5/1/2014 10:34:25 AM] Siggon.k: and normally more faces to punch that people to do the punching
  283. [5/1/2014 10:34:32 AM] Siggon.k: *than
  284. [5/1/2014 10:34:48 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: hehe - ok im falling into my keyboard. I'll follow the backlog later when i wake up.
  285. [5/1/2014 10:35:28 AM] Endie H: Gigaplex, IRC used to be that special somebody
  286. [5/1/2014 10:35:35 AM] Endie H: then razor ruined it for everyone :(
  287. [5/1/2014 10:35:40 AM] Siggon.k: oh also, can you dudes ensure the ceo's just getting added to this get the full scrollback?
  288. [5/1/2014 10:36:07 AM] sneakernyc: Yes preety please :)
  289. [5/1/2014 10:36:16 AM] Gigaplex: he
  290. [5/1/2014 10:36:23 AM] Gigaplex: we killed IRC by accident
  291. [5/1/2014 10:38:35 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: i can copy it all i suppose - where should I dump it - i don't want to dump it in dapper channel or the forum - too many eyes
  292. [5/1/2014 10:41:20 AM] Siggon.k: to ceo's individually as they ask, would probably be for the best
  293. [5/1/2014 10:42:10 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: see if this works - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dF_e8NNiM2_aVYnKDDCkPej5w-1vwVQLiKCpQNsNtA8/edit?usp=sharing
  294. [5/1/2014 10:44:19 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: ok - im off to sleep
  295. [5/1/2014 10:44:37 AM] sneakernyc: Perfect - tyvm
  296. [5/1/2014 10:44:42 AM] Siggon.k: g'night
  297. [5/1/2014 10:44:51 AM] sneakernyc: Im gonna read it after work :P
  298. [5/1/2014 10:44:55 AM] sneakernyc: Nite nite
  299. [5/1/2014 11:40:58 AM] *** Siggon.k added Manu Propria - (vadenastorian) ***
  300. [5/1/2014 12:33:37 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Just read all the backlogs. Nothing that I really disagree with, though I feel some it might be a bit overly ambitious from the get-go.
  301. [5/1/2014 12:34:44 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: There's a fine line between "this is who we are" and "this is what we want to do" - as is evidenced by Insideous Empire run under N3 - when the "this is what we want to do" is not accomplished in a timely manner it leaves the alliance feeling defeated.
  302. [5/1/2014 12:38:25 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Our primary concern in my opinion should be operating under what is best for the coalition, even if that means feeding the meatgrinder, and then try to string together an organic rapid response culture secondly.
  303. [5/1/2014 12:48:14 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Also, I would consider adding the F-V9QW constellation to the potential sov list so we don't create an intel dead zone for CO2 up in tribute. Their staging system borders T-ZW in that constellation.
  304. [5/1/2014 12:59:15 PM] Attoy [ybox]: what a backlog... I'll read it after dinner :/
  305. [5/1/2014 12:59:29 PM] Attoy [ybox]: just a couple of question so I know who are who :P
  306. [5/1/2014 12:59:44 PM] Attoy [ybox]: Martin Wojas? Michael Gilbert?
  307. [5/1/2014 12:59:52 PM] Attoy [ybox]: bo.elder = Rhay?
  308. [5/1/2014 1:00:30 PM] Martin Wojas: Martin Wojas = Dope Boy [B-HS]
  309. [5/1/2014 1:02:01 PM] Attoy [ybox]: awesome, tnx, added and renamed ;)
  310. [5/1/2014 1:03:32 PM] Martin Wojas: ;)
  311. [5/1/2014 1:07:18 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Totally unrelated, but long time no see Martin, flew with you a few years ago :)
  312. [5/1/2014 1:07:41 PM] Martin Wojas: :)
  313. [5/1/2014 1:07:49 PM] Martin Wojas: Good to see familliar faces
  314. [5/1/2014 1:53:48 PM] Attoy [ybox]: reading the backlog...
  315. [5/1/2014 1:54:09 PM] Attoy [ybox]: I guess we still miss a TETIC representative in here, am I right?
  316. [5/1/2014 1:55:17 PM] Attoy [ybox]: boin4 too, I can get in contact with boin4, however there will be some comunication issues as they are not so fluent in english
  317. [5/1/2014 1:55:25 PM] Attoy [ybox]: well, I'm not so fluent too :P
  318. [5/1/2014 1:56:53 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: I think TETIC's CEO might be just a figurehead, never met the guy. But they have two dudes that I would consider trustworthy.
  319. [5/1/2014 1:56:59 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: If we want to bring one of them in
  320. [5/1/2014 1:58:06 PM] Attoy [ybox]: never talk to the guy either, but I guess we could ask them what are they planning for the future, don't know if they are interested in this project or if they are already joining some other alliance
  321. [5/1/2014 1:58:53 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: I speak to Phineas regularly. They are interested, but only have the (limited) information that I've been providing him.
  322. [5/1/2014 1:59:05 PM] Attoy [ybox]: i like the 'motto' "nullsec pvp without the hassle" :)
  323. [5/1/2014 1:59:14 PM] Attoy [ybox]: Phineas is TETIC?
  324. [5/1/2014 1:59:26 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Yup
  325. [5/1/2014 1:59:35 PM] Attoy [ybox]: damn, need to use 'show info' more in game :P
  326. [5/1/2014 1:59:49 PM] Attoy [ybox]: he's a good guy, I guess he should be here with us
  327. [5/1/2014 2:00:28 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: In spite of an active CEO in TETIC, I don't know what the situation is there, but I consider Phineas and X4ver to be running the show with them.
  328. [5/1/2014 2:02:19 PM] Attoy [ybox]: if you're already in contact with them I guess you can ask who will be the corp representative to get an invite here
  329. [5/1/2014 2:02:47 PM] Attoy [ybox]: it seems Sion gave us a "go" to invite corp representative, or we should wait for him?
  330. [5/1/2014 2:03:21 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Well, last I heard it was CEOs only so I'm inclined to wait for Sion
  331. [5/1/2014 2:03:41 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: At the very least I will clarify the CEO situation with Phineas and figure out how they run shit
  332. [5/1/2014 2:04:13 PM] Attoy [ybox]: yeah, I don't use show info to allymate, true
  333. [5/1/2014 2:04:32 PM] Attoy [ybox]: however I'm pretty sure I never saw Hexentanz...!
  334. [5/1/2014 2:05:00 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Ive never seen him, never talked to him, he doesnt exist to me. Its a confusing situation.
  335. [5/1/2014 2:06:49 PM] Attoy [ybox]: ok I read the backlog
  336. [5/1/2014 2:07:21 PM] Attoy [ybox]: I'd like to keep it simple, let me explain better, I love the 'motto'; I'm scared about the doctrines topic
  337. [5/1/2014 2:08:11 PM] Attoy [ybox]: are we going to adopt CFC doctrines and add some like SIGs do, or are we going to have a new doctrines set at all?
  338. [5/1/2014 2:09:52 PM] Attoy [ybox]: I see also a proposed list of constellation, I guess it's official that we will hold sov, so are we going to propose which constellation we wanna hold?
  339. [5/1/2014 2:11:32 PM] Attoy [ybox]: quote Senshi - "and then try to string together an organic rapid response culture secondly."
  340. [5/1/2014 2:12:44 PM] Attoy [ybox]: I agree completely I'd like it, rapid response culture to be able to be deployed efficiently and fastly wherever the military wing decide
  341. [5/1/2014 2:13:03 PM] Attoy [ybox]: do I understand what you meant Senshi or am I wrong?
  342. [5/1/2014 2:14:09 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: In principle you read it correctly, though the message behind that statement was that we don't rush into any such culture. Let the foundation be put in place, integrate with GSF best practices and THEN hone in on our rapid response directives.
  343. [5/1/2014 2:14:40 PM] Attoy [ybox]: hah ok
  344. [5/1/2014 2:15:05 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Though our end goal should be a rapid response culture. That is a good angle, and one that I can see us executing in the long haul
  345. [5/1/2014 2:15:33 PM] Attoy [ybox]: rgr that
  346. [5/1/2014 3:17:06 PM] Attoy [ybox]: Sion o/
  347. [5/1/2014 3:20:48 PM] Siggon.k: had to swap computers
  348. [5/1/2014 3:21:02 PM] Siggon.k: and then it took forever to get it up and running, woo
  349. [5/1/2014 3:21:34 PM] Attoy [ybox]: I hate even when I need to reinstall the OS... :P
  350. [5/1/2014 3:22:48 PM] Siggon.k: if phineas should be in here, by all means
  351. [5/1/2014 3:26:05 PM] *** Siggon.k added marcus allen ***
  352. [5/1/2014 3:26:55 PM] Siggon.k: for the folks just recently joining: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dF_e8NNiM2_aVYnKDDCkPej5w-1vwVQLiKCpQNsNtA8/edit?usp=sharing
  353. [5/1/2014 3:27:52 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: i'm keen to have the activity of the alliance framed up front, because I think its a selling point for foks who are going to be shy of being just another GSF. We have people who really are going to want to have a clear identity separation, and making it clear that the activity should surround a QRF model, even if it takes some time to get there, is going to be important
  354. [5/1/2014 3:29:15 PM] Siggon.k: as I mentioned earlier, I'm not too worried about that. identity as a function of size means that it will only be natural that it'll be something else
  355. [5/1/2014 3:29:54 PM] Michael Gilbert: I like the meta alliance identity, why not embrace that?
  356. [5/1/2014 3:30:53 PM] Siggon.k: the idea currently floater per nova is 'pvp without the hassle'
  357. [5/1/2014 3:31:09 PM] Michael Gilbert: yes, it really sounds great
  358. [5/1/2014 3:31:19 PM] Michael Gilbert: first responders ect
  359. [5/1/2014 3:31:22 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: i guess what i'm trying to emphazise is that it gives us a goal to work towrd, which is what ultimately killed GENTS. We lost the narrative that help the alliance together
  360. [5/1/2014 3:32:05 PM] Michael Gilbert: we stayed together functioning because we liked each other, isnt that enough to start with?
  361. [5/1/2014 3:32:44 PM] marcus allen: what killed gents is in activty at leadership level.
  362. [5/1/2014 3:33:12 PM] Michael Gilbert: thats my point, the members still had fun together
  363. [5/1/2014 3:33:34 PM] Michael Gilbert: we generally enjoy spending our time together
  364. [5/1/2014 3:34:30 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: that works at the corp level, but al the level of an alliance with 1500 people, its not enough. You don't get enough relationships across corp identities to hold it all together. You need some sort of common goals. So that way, no mattet when you log in, no matter who is on at the time, you hae a shared sense of purpose that is tangible - not just "fight for mittani" which might be noble, but is not enough of narrative, or else GENTS would have stayed together
  365. [5/1/2014 3:36:55 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: and we absolutely enjoyed spending time together, else we would not be here trying to re-from in some new way
  366. [5/1/2014 3:39:36 PM] Siggon.k: narrative only gets you so far. you can take a loose goal like "goons in space" and drive it to a successful space empire if you prioritize results
  367. [5/1/2014 3:39:48 PM] Michael Gilbert: you can have the best narrative or concept and have a shitty group and it will fail. I think we have the most important part...us
  368. [5/1/2014 3:42:21 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: prioritize results = short term and medium term goals - which is something people can conceptualize. "successful space empire", again is a noble goal, but too nebulous and lofty to be compelling on a daily basis.
  369. [5/1/2014 3:52:27 PM] marcus allen: im catching up on back log.. but is there some kinda firm out line of things as it stands?
  370. [5/1/2014 3:55:08 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Cosmo from boinas eve mailed me. He's interested.
  371. [5/1/2014 4:02:54 PM] Siggon.k: I dare say our membership does okay with the space empire goal
  372. [5/1/2014 4:03:13 PM] Siggon.k: it's subsidiary to having fun though
  373. [5/1/2014 4:05:46 PM] Siggon.k: I guess my suggestion is that if you want something with concrete walls between it and gsf, that you leave the cfc entirely. as is, there's nothing in the coalition that is totally isolated from gsf, and it will be impossible to build such an entity
  374. [5/1/2014 4:07:38 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Agreed. fun = null space pvp without the hassle. Daily activity to grow from there
  375. [5/1/2014 5:10:21 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: And yet we can't decide on something as trivial as a name. Heh, eve is a complex machine.
  376. [5/1/2014 5:11:06 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: I love it.
  377. [5/1/2014 5:14:56 PM] Michael Gilbert: I like the name "Chance", it says it all
  378. [5/1/2014 5:17:18 PM] Siggon.k: I'm terrible at name stuff too
  379. [5/1/2014 5:25:01 PM] Michael Gilbert: I read in the backlog that you do not think Prax will join this new alliance. I have not heard from Lake and of course it is his decision in the end. With that being said, he told us in the begining that where we went as a corp would be up to us(members). We are very interested in this new alliance and though I have not taken a poll, most of the conversation is pro meta alliance. Most of us want to stay with our friends from gents.
  380. [5/1/2014 5:29:29 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: So if I understand correctly, R16s aren't given out in GSF, its basically you probe them you tower them you pay the taxes?
  381. [5/1/2014 5:31:19 PM] Siggon.k: it's first come first sever, whoever owns the moon first owns it
  382. [5/1/2014 5:31:25 PM] Siggon.k: no taxes
  383. [5/1/2014 5:31:40 PM] Siggon.k: the alliance holds all the r64's and some tech
  384. [5/1/2014 5:32:04 PM] Siggon.k: so if something isn't nationalized, it's free game
  385. [5/1/2014 5:32:06 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Tax free R16s is a beautiful concept
  386. [5/1/2014 5:32:15 PM] Siggon.k: r32's too
  387. [5/1/2014 5:32:29 PM] Siggon.k: tax free all moons. they're either tax free or totally nationalized
  388. [5/1/2014 5:32:30 PM] Siggon.k: oh
  389. [5/1/2014 5:32:52 PM] Siggon.k: so yeah, if you are on r16's or r32's, I'd recommend not de-towering them
  390. [5/1/2014 5:33:57 PM] Gigaplex: i don't think that first come first serve is a good concept to distribute towers. Especially if it is planned that the alliance get more corps
  391. [5/1/2014 5:34:31 PM] Gigaplex: in the end the starting corps will have all moons and new corps will get nothing
  392. [5/1/2014 5:34:56 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: I gave my r32's to GSOL, but I wont lie, as an opportunist ive got my entire corp moon-scanning R16s
  393. [5/1/2014 5:35:04 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Because they're bored.
  394. [5/1/2014 5:35:47 PM] Siggon.k: unless the r32's were tech, no reason to
  395. [5/1/2014 5:36:04 PM] Siggon.k: the tech might get nationalized in vale, not sure yet
  396. [5/1/2014 5:36:22 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Its okay. The towers I gave over were in renter space and I really hated the logistics..
  397. [5/1/2014 5:46:02 PM] Attoy [ybox]: back again, I read the backlog
  398. [5/1/2014 5:47:57 PM] Attoy [ybox]: I know, I'm bad with names... Who's Marcus Allen?
  399. [5/1/2014 5:48:41 PM] Attoy [ybox]: nvm ;)
  400. [5/1/2014 6:45:58 PM] bo.elder: back - Attoy, yes, it's me ... Rhaybeck [EMPIN]
  401. [5/1/2014 6:46:00 PM] bo.elder: ;)
  402. [5/1/2014 7:33:56 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: In pursuit of a name, can we have everyone in here make 1 proposal?
  403. [5/1/2014 7:51:14 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Ziggybee Federation [ZIGGY] - "Though low-powered, ZigBee devices can transmit data over long distances by passing data through intermediate devices to reach more distant ones, creating a mesh network", pretty much summarizes the meta-GSF relationship, a small power communicating through a series of networks/delegation
  404. [5/1/2014 7:51:19 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: ^^ my proposal
  405. [5/1/2014 7:54:05 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: (only because The State is taken)
  406. [5/1/2014 7:55:32 PM] *** bo.elder added Catlos Jeminjees [EMPIN] ***
  407. [5/1/2014 8:04:18 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Phoenix Federation [-PE-]
  408. [5/1/2014 8:05:00 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: I like that too.
  409. [5/1/2014 8:06:07 PM] Catlos Jeminjees: How about something along the lines of The Crows from Game of thrones
  410. [5/1/2014 8:06:50 PM] Catlos Jeminjees: Hello Im Catlos o7 Im the Co-CEO of EMPIN
  411. [5/1/2014 8:07:14 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: o/ catlos
  412. [5/1/2014 8:07:53 PM] Catlos Jeminjees: Chance (heart)
  413. [5/1/2014 8:11:15 PM] *** Senshi [ohcrp] added [TETIC] Phineas Freak ***
  414. [5/1/2014 8:11:22 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Got a TETIC rep here now
  415. [5/1/2014 8:12:20 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: 0/
  416. [5/1/2014 8:12:28 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Luc? Eve name?
  417. [5/1/2014 8:13:27 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: phineas freak
  418. [5/1/2014 8:13:38 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: i can change it, just had this one handy
  419. [5/1/2014 8:16:03 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I changed it on my end
  420. [5/1/2014 8:18:37 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: I vouch for him while TETIC's CEO is at fanfest, hes a good dude
  421. [5/1/2014 8:21:03 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: yup i am good in sense that you know all have my public skype account. i'll handle that later
  422. [5/1/2014 8:22:19 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: HEXENTANZ and X4ver are at fanfest,we talk daily and even though hex went afk 6 months ago he is in the loop.
  423. [5/1/2014 8:23:31 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: That explains why nobody seems to know who he is lol
  424. [5/1/2014 8:24:13 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: ye
  425. [5/1/2014 8:24:21 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: I trust you more than I trust him. No offense intended to hex.
  426. [5/1/2014 8:24:44 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: that fine you can not trut him if you never spoke to him
  427. [5/1/2014 8:28:40 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: but he is a really fine dude. since he is not interested in eve at the moment x4ver and me lead the corp, kataira is an equal director too but off shore many weeks in a row on survay boat
  428. [5/1/2014 8:29:42 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: remind to to enable spell check here before endie bites my head off
  429. [5/1/2014 8:30:10 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Haha
  430. [5/1/2014 8:31:46 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: ok my girl is fst asleep so i got ome time, just no voice atm or i''ll wake her up
  431. [5/1/2014 8:32:06 PM] bo.elder: we're doing IM for the time being
  432. [5/1/2014 8:32:36 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: cool
  433. [5/1/2014 8:36:24 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: It all im. That way we have the backlog
  434. [5/1/2014 8:38:11 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: transscribing voice recordings is terribly annoying work. text rules.
  435. [5/1/2014 8:43:38 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Can someone link the backlog doc for them?
  436. [5/1/2014 8:44:35 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dF_e8NNiM2_aVYnKDDCkPej5w-1vwVQLiKCpQNsNtA8/edit?usp=sharing
  437. [5/1/2014 8:44:53 PM] Lukas Schmallegger: what i can say is that all tetic directors want to give a "new thing" a try as proposed by senshi to us, of course there are certain questions unanswred bt canw ait until after fanfest and longer if required.
  438. [5/1/2014 8:45:01 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Thanks senshi
  439. [5/1/2014 8:45:20 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: we declined all other offers so far or put them on hold
  440. [5/1/2014 9:01:24 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Same
  441. [5/1/2014 9:02:00 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: halfway through the backlog :)
  442. [5/1/2014 9:02:56 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: i see the reasoning behind the proposal and it is something i embrace because it takes weight off my shoulders
  443. [5/1/2014 9:04:10 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: eve is not dying, it simply has many vets piled up on one side or another who can't find anything intersting to do anymore and stop logging in for daily/weekly chores and fun.
  444. [5/1/2014 9:04:43 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: offering the actives a new project is more encouraging than splitting up and start to grab from the limited recruitment pool there is
  445. [5/1/2014 9:08:43 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: brave newbies/love squad/rvb get hundred of people in a fleet to save a tackled harbinger. of course this won't last, but a little bit of that excitement and socialising via pvp could be carried over to cap pilots too and make kcolor happy again. i don' want us to end up like ncdot.
  446. [5/1/2014 9:12:21 PM] *** Siggon.k removed Catlos Jeminjees [EMPIN] from this conversation. ***
  447. [5/1/2014 9:12:50 PM] Siggon.k: let's not start adding in co-ceo's and other directors to this
  448. [5/1/2014 9:13:29 PM] Siggon.k: you're welcome to communicate this information to them, but this will swiftly get a bit too big if we start adding in multiples for corps
  449. [5/1/2014 9:19:42 PM] Nova Rain: Playing with the idea of "nullsec PvP without the hassle" a bit, the next step seems to be to figure out what the hassles actually are and figure out how you'd mitigate them. Cost can get covered by reimbursement (although that's not sufficient, folks still want income), towers and infrastructure being managed by GSOL removes that overhead, deployment could get covered by formalizing the freight hangar and cyno chain system, etc.
  450. [5/1/2014 9:21:09 PM] Nova Rain: An extreme of that idea -- although I'm not sure if it's viable -- would be to actually not give this new alliance any sov, but instead give the right to crash on the couch of other CFC/PBLRD/whatever space to do PvE, with the understanding that they shouldn't stay somewhere too long.
  451. [5/1/2014 9:22:10 PM] Nova Rain: Actually holding space is more of a hassle than a value if you have the ability to actually generate income without it. Not having a centralized place for a distraction to hit you would also be attractive. Half the problem GENTS had deploying was that we still had to defend the homeland, which forced split attention a lot.
  452. [5/1/2014 9:22:15 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Sovless wont work
  453. [5/1/2014 9:22:18 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: i think a combination of the way gsf handles this nd what gents did would work fine, we do not have to reinvent the whell. or do we? i hvae no insight in how many helping hands keep cfc combined ops running
  454. [5/1/2014 9:22:19 PM] Nova Rain: I'm not entirely sure what I think of that yet, but I wanted to toss it out there.
  455. [5/1/2014 9:22:27 PM] Nova Rain: Senshi: Why not?
  456. [5/1/2014 9:23:32 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: We can't treat line members like second class citizens. No home, nothing to fight for. There is a split between corps at the moment willing to serve the coalition and those who want their own image. And the side that wants a home holds the clear advantage at the moment.
  457. [5/1/2014 9:23:49 PM] Nova Rain: I'm not sure how not having sov makes you second class.
  458. [5/1/2014 9:24:12 PM] Nova Rain: Holding sov yourself -- rather than relying on sov held by allies -- doesn't actually confer much benefit.
  459. [5/1/2014 9:24:32 PM] Nova Rain: There's certainly a messaging issue, but I don't think spinning no sov as a good thing would be as hard as you think.
  460. [5/1/2014 9:24:51 PM] Nova Rain: And it's not that corporations couldn't have a "home" somewhere, it just might not be the same across the alliance. Home is where the industry is, I suppose.
  461. [5/1/2014 9:25:35 PM] Nova Rain: I also strongly disagree that you need a home to have "something to fight for". Most folks interested in PvP don't actually care about the space that much, they just want to shoot dudes. It's way more fun to wreck someone else's space than to defend your own.
  462. [5/1/2014 9:26:28 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: i could live without sov, but i also like to learn all aspects of the game at some point. so do many players, the majority even i think. it's not the matrial benefit or pride of seing your banner ona poco/ tcu that matters - lmiiting the possibilities makes many people feel they are being restrained. i'd fight for anything because that in itself provides "content"
  463. [5/1/2014 9:29:22 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: My line members lack motivation. I motivate them by telling them that the CFC gave us Vale, and we have space to defend. And when its not under attack, we help the people who gave us our space.
  464. [5/1/2014 9:29:42 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Without that narrative or something similar, not everyone folows the "i just want to kill people for the sake of killing people" mantra
  465. [5/1/2014 9:30:08 PM] Symbiotes: I have... some trouble with that kind of motivation
  466. [5/1/2014 9:30:20 PM] Nova Rain: It's easy to build a bit of narrative around "we live here, it's home, let's protect it"... but that's ultimately really boring to do.
  467. [5/1/2014 9:31:44 PM] Nova Rain: You could alternatively build your narrative around "we're nomads who shoot up other people's space", and really play the whole "free from the shackles of sov" card while having the support of a sov-holding bloc.
  468. [5/1/2014 9:32:46 PM] Nova Rain: It's a lot easier to generate content -- and narrative -- when you have the initiative.
  469. [5/1/2014 9:33:19 PM] Nova Rain: The whole idea rests on the ability to basically hijack the space of other CFC entities for PvE purposes, though, which might not even be viable.
  470. [5/1/2014 9:36:40 PM] Siggon.k: there's definitely going to be some sov
  471. [5/1/2014 9:37:01 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: even npc 0.0 or low sec based alliances usually are very territorial for as long as they stay in one place) and enjoy ruining the day of those who are overstaying their welcome. the setback is they are usually smaller and not as stable imho (with few exceptions). tl,dr the "new alliance" might raise the bar for their members mindest quite a bit.
  472. [5/1/2014 9:37:20 PM] Siggon.k: based on the feedback in here and the idea of 'pvp without the hassle', it will probably be a small footprint though
  473. [5/1/2014 9:37:29 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: mindest? mindset
  474. [5/1/2014 9:39:12 PM] Siggon.k: that is, there will be some sov
  475. [5/1/2014 9:39:27 PM] Siggon.k: there's too much quality of life stuff that goes along with it
  476. [5/1/2014 9:42:06 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: ok good to hear. i do not need it but the majority of people does to be motivated to stick around, for one reason or another.
  477. [5/1/2014 9:43:07 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Ive already build a "fortress" in C-FP to give my guys narrative to protect our "home", it's as flimsy of a narrative as you can get, but it gives them a reason to log on and not evacuate
  478. [5/1/2014 9:43:12 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: built, rather
  479. [5/1/2014 9:44:09 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: heh. what kind of corp size/activity will be required after the transition phase/grace period has passed? (a rough estimate will do)
  480. [5/1/2014 9:44:30 PM] Nova Rain: Geography based identity is fairly brittle. It leads to very little content, and ultimately you're going to lose it.
  481. [5/1/2014 9:45:01 PM] Nova Rain: Any time Vale got attacked -- even in fairly casual ways -- you'd have a corporation or two would who evac everything to lowsec and start looking at other alliances.
  482. [5/1/2014 9:45:52 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: good point nova which is why i think regular smaller deployments aka new sigs people can get into would be awesome. we never really established a working blops team in gents (evn though various people kept working on it)
  483. [5/1/2014 9:47:34 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: i'll give you a straight number: out of 100 ppl in tetic 20 MAINS did not log in for 3 months (aka since the vale def). i woudl have kicked them by end of may anyway.
  484. [5/1/2014 9:47:59 PM] Nova Rain: SIGs are great, but there's a difference between "nullsec PvP without the hassle" and "access to GSF SIGs without the hassle". Both are probably viable, but the former would benefit from a bit of alliance cohesion while the latter would never have a strong identity.
  485. [5/1/2014 9:48:11 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Build the identity around what we do not where we live. Itd much more flexible.
  486. [5/1/2014 9:48:26 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: and i doubt they will becoem more active whatever we do, sov or not.
  487. [5/1/2014 9:48:34 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: and yes what chance said
  488. [5/1/2014 9:48:46 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: more "gentlemen on the road" style
  489. [5/1/2014 9:49:48 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: that requirespeople who attract pilots that want to fly with them because it is fun. to have that these fc's should not be tripple tasked as dg's, tower fueers and ceo#s
  490. [5/1/2014 10:01:09 PM] Siggon.k: corp size and activity probably won't be looked at at all for at lease the first few months
  491. [5/1/2014 10:02:06 PM] Siggon.k: a transition in management is hard enough, a transition into something no one has ever tried before, even harder
  492. [5/1/2014 10:02:47 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Which is why we should remain as open-minded and flexible as possible
  493. [5/1/2014 10:03:19 PM] Siggon.k: yeah. the real key here is going to be looking to the future and not dwelling on the past
  494. [5/1/2014 10:03:55 PM] Siggon.k: not that the past shouldn't inform decisions, but I have little interest in carrying the corp rivalries you guys have expereinced in some cases to this new thing
  495. [5/1/2014 10:04:12 PM] Siggon.k: anyone who signs up, on the same team
  496. [5/1/2014 10:04:40 PM] Siggon.k: and people can disagree without being disagreeable so long as we're working toward roughly the same goals
  497. [5/1/2014 10:05:13 PM] Nova Rain: Not sure we had any actual corp rivalries (maybe I missed them), just a fair number of pissing matches between individuals.
  498. [5/1/2014 10:05:33 PM] Siggon.k: which increasingly, it sounds like we are working toward, which is good
  499. [5/1/2014 10:06:45 PM] Siggon.k: well, not too worried about that. I'm just saying I'm not invested in any past grudges. my only goal is this thing working effectively
  500. [5/1/2014 10:07:57 PM] Siggon.k: the good part is that we've gone from "I dunno" to an actual idea of why this thing will exist and what kind identity it might have
  501. [5/1/2014 10:08:29 PM] Siggon.k: the rest is details, important details, but we've already cleared the highest hurdle
  502. [5/1/2014 10:08:36 PM] Siggon.k: so hooray for that
  503. [5/1/2014 10:08:39 PM] Siggon.k: okay wait no
  504. [5/1/2014 10:08:44 PM] Siggon.k: the name might be the highest hurdle
  505. [5/1/2014 10:11:05 PM] Symbiotes: I'd say preferably something classy while referencing the 'idea' behind the alliance, but nothing comes to mind right away, definitely a high hurdle
  506. [5/1/2014 10:13:29 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: afk a bit red needed a lgi anchor, bl trying to break out
  507. [5/1/2014 10:26:11 PM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I've put up 2. I'll keep poking at the name. Need to do some reading. Something that is not s gimmick.
  508. [5/1/2014 10:26:34 PM] Rhaybeck [empin]: ^^
  509. [5/1/2014 10:27:16 PM] Symbiotes: agreed
  510. [5/1/2014 10:34:25 PM] Senshi [ohcrp]: The only gimmick I wouldve been fond over was Zombie Outbreak Response Team [-ZOR-] but its taken.
  511. [5/1/2014 10:41:09 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: haha
  512. [5/1/2014 10:41:34 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: what does Li3 stand for btw
  513. [5/1/2014 10:41:40 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: i never bothered so far
  514. [5/1/2014 10:42:16 PM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: (apart from lithium of course)
  515. [1:04:49 AM] Attoy [ybox]: Li3, I never thought to Lithium :P I always read it as 'LIE' written in 'leet' mode with the 'E' switched with a '3'
  516. [1:13:25 AM] Attoy [ybox]: as a summary can we say in a not precise order:
  517.  
  518. 1. Definitely sov-holding, little footprint (I guess it means few systems);
  519. 2. Null-sec pvp without hassle applied as a strategic/quick response unit alliance;
  520. 3. Management structure exported from GSF;
  521. 4. FCs structure similar to CFC; skirmish FC, FC, bloc-FC;
  522. 5. Doctrines inherited from CFC plus custom doctrines;
  523. 6. no big deal on participation for the first couple of months to facilitate the transition;
  524. 7. (possibly) R32, R16 and below FFA;
  525. 8. sov infrastructure managed by GSOL (no mandate tower, no JB tower, no staging tower);
  526. 9. -most important thing- no grudges between corps, let's start with a clean slate
  527.  
  528. did I miss something?
  529.  
  530. Oh yeah, the name... can we extend the pool and ask our memberbase to think about a name and then write them here?
  531. [7:00:25 AM] Gigaplex: i realy don't like the first come first serve model for R32 and below. This makes it impossible for new corporations (we talked about corps from failing alliances) won't get a piece of the moon income.
  532. [7:01:11 AM] Gigaplex: and it's not all about "you doN't need income, when the alliance pay Full SRP"
  533. [7:01:17 AM] Endie H: When I hear "moon drama" I reach for my gun
  534. [7:01:44 AM] Gigaplex: but this first come first serve model will reach to 'moon drama'
  535. [7:02:25 AM] Endie H: Doesn't in GSF
  536. [7:02:40 AM] Endie H: Except for kidx corp who wil die next time they do it
  537. [7:02:45 AM] Endie H: I thought there was a consensus on a small footprint org with rapid reaction focus that isn't acquiring the usual cruft /long tail of logistics functionality
  538. [9:06:36 AM] Siggon.k: thanks for doing up that summary attoy
  539. [9:37:56 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: In gsf is there a moon market? New corp joins, wants to run reactions, but no goo moons available. Do other corps sell theirs?
  540. [9:38:54 AM] Endie H: No. SMart is available to the whole coalition but I don't see it used for selling moons
  541. [9:39:23 AM] Gigaplex: whoever has a moon, won't give it
  542. [9:46:13 AM] Endie H: Indeed
  543. [9:47:43 AM] Gigaplex: So corps we take within the alliance, because the old one collapsed, will have to take a notable income cut, if they join us
  544. [9:48:49 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: If they already have moons, no. Since they presumably can hold onto the moons they have in blue space
  545. [9:49:02 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Just like we are
  546. [9:49:13 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: They just may not be in sov
  547. [9:49:48 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Logistically that may not be too great.
  548. [9:50:14 AM] Siggon.k: the glory of state socialism is that corp income becomes less of a thing. most corps in gsf don't have moons, but do fine on income through other vectors
  549. [9:50:23 AM] Siggon.k: but no, it isn't a fair system
  550. [9:50:31 AM] Siggon.k: but we're not really big on fair
  551. [9:50:42 AM] Senshi [ohcrp]: To be that into perspective, what is the ratting tax?
  552. [9:50:46 AM] Endie H: 15%
  553. [9:50:47 AM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Assuming there is one
  554. [9:50:52 AM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Gotcha, thanks
  555. [9:50:52 AM] Endie H: (in GSF)
  556. [9:51:04 AM] Siggon.k: 15%, ratting taxes go to the corps and not the alliance
  557. [9:51:13 AM] Endie H: enforced across alt corps although occasionally member corps vary that
  558. [9:51:56 AM] Endie H: amok, for instance, recruit by keeping a lower tax rate http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp/Amok.
  559. [9:51:58 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: So all corps St tax rate to 15%?
  560. [9:52:07 AM] Endie H: you can imagine the quality of recruits attracted by that :/
  561. [9:52:27 AM] Endie H: In fact just today we had to deal with the latest consequences of that
  562. [9:53:38 AM] Endie H: Other end of the scale, Ned are excellent but set very low taxes while recruiting sparingly: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp/NED-Clan
  563. [9:54:13 AM] Siggon.k: with the bulk of the costs footed by the alliance, corps have found that ratting taxes tend to provide more than enough to fund additional reimbursement, industry, construction, etc.
  564. [9:54:21 AM] Senshi [ohcrp]: So if I understand this correctly, if my corp was set to 12% I would then owe the alliance 3%, but all corps would receieve some form of monetary return?
  565. [9:54:59 AM] Siggon.k: no. if you set taxes to 12% you just get reduced taxes, the alliance wouldn't care
  566. [9:55:05 AM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Ah okay.
  567. [9:55:11 AM] Endie H: Bat Country have almost no moons but have the fifth highest capital and supercapital numbers in the whole CFC with only 200 members
  568. [9:55:16 AM] Siggon.k: since the taxes would go to ohcrp not to the alliance
  569. [9:55:18 AM] Endie H: Off 15% tax
  570. [9:56:15 AM] Senshi [ohcrp]: I flucuate my tax rate based on PVP activity, so thats helpful info for me.
  571. [9:56:27 AM] Senshi [ohcrp]: More paps, less tax
  572. [9:56:45 AM] Endie H: Don't suggest that to the mittani
  573. [9:56:57 AM] Endie H: I can see the demands for new systems already
  574. [9:57:08 AM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Haha touche
  575. [9:57:27 AM] Siggon.k: how corps run and fund their corps are up to the corps
  576. [9:57:51 AM] Siggon.k: at the end of the day, it is about results, so if whatever you're doing causes people to log in for fleets
  577. [9:58:10 AM] Siggon.k: that's all that really matters
  578. [9:58:30 AM] Siggon.k: which is why we have plenty of asshole corp leaders, we don't select for anything but results
  579. [9:59:52 AM] Siggon.k: also worth noting is that it isn't all about pap stats
  580. [10:00:41 AM] Siggon.k: other assets like fc's, jf services, a huge battalion of spies, etc. anything that contributes to the strategic wellbeing of the alliance as a whole, but may not show up on a pap sheet
  581. [10:02:02 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Interesting
  582. [10:08:18 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: How does number of alts vs main chars play into pap evaluation. Our corps tend to be alt heavy
  583. [10:09:13 AM] Gigaplex: i think i read somewehre in the last days it's about total paps not relatives
  584. [10:09:38 AM] Senshi [ohcrp]: Yeah most alliances ive spoken to have taken to looking at absolute over relative
  585. [10:09:43 AM] Siggon.k: it's relative to actual people, and absolute
  586. [10:09:53 AM] Siggon.k: we track both
  587. [10:10:05 AM] Siggon.k: alt's don't matter since we track all characters
  588. [10:10:39 AM] Siggon.k: so for example, a 200 man corp of 5 people is counted as a corp of 5 people
  589. [10:15:42 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: K. I thought nova had asked already.
  590. [10:17:10 AM] Siggon.k: it's nice having that level of data. let's us keep track of it better, but it wasn't ever practical to implement on a coalition level
  591. [10:22:37 AM] Siggon.k: so I guess to clarify a bit more, pap stuff is but one part of a mixture of variables. relative, absolute, other considerations. the value analysis is probably at least as much art as it is science
  592. [10:31:07 AM] Endie H: I used to do stats for the alliance and bloc, and I have yet to meet a corp which didn't inform me that they were "unusually alt heavy". Fortunately counting characters avoids that entirely.
  593. [10:31:59 AM] Manu Propria - (vadenastorian): so, who is most altheavy in the cfc? or who is most altheavy within your dataset?
  594. [10:32:45 AM] Siggon.k: we can't track alt ratios in the cfc since we don't demand that every api for every character be entered
  595. [10:33:06 AM] Siggon.k: we do however demand that at the alliance level
  596. [10:33:42 AM] Siggon.k: so we have a handy spreadsheet that has the alt ratios (as well as total characters, total real people)
  597. [10:40:00 AM] Endie H: I could tell you that the most alt heavy is probably Etny, but at the same time I can also tell you that widot or amok or merchi or thunderwaffe have all spuriously claimed that it is them
  598. [10:40:02 AM] Endie H: amongst others
  599. [10:40:13 AM] Symbiotes: ^^
  600. [10:41:16 AM] Symbiotes: for alt corporations in gents, most had a character or more that did pvp in the main corp
  601. [10:41:40 AM] Symbiotes: how does that get calculated pap-wise or would it be better to field those from the alt corporation so it gets its own data track?
  602. [10:42:20 AM] Endie H: alt corps are not calculated, if that is what you are asking
  603. [10:42:43 AM] Siggon.k: people are counted by what forum group their account is tied to
  604. [10:43:10 AM] Siggon.k: so if a guy is in waffe, but has an alt corp for moons or whatever, his participation is counted as waffe
  605. [10:43:18 AM] Endie H: Thus I appear under Goonwaffe stats - my original and primary group - even though I have characters in Bat COuntry and sometimes in an alt corp
  606. [10:43:37 AM] Symbiotes: hmm... my main char and gsf forum character is in the alt corp
  607. [10:44:01 AM] Siggon.k: all alt corps in gsf are tied to a main in a full member corp
  608. [10:44:20 AM] Siggon.k: if they're not, they get tossed out
  609. [10:45:35 AM] Symbiotes: so in this specific case, designating my alt in the main corp as a main would be valid, or should I move the main character out of the alt corp? (which has shitty implications for its usage of the character)
  610. [10:46:24 AM] Siggon.k: it is done by forum account designation, not character designation
  611. [10:46:50 AM] Siggon.k: so if you have a character in a full member corp, your forum group is that member corp's group
  612. [10:47:09 AM] Siggon.k: and so long as you have at least one character there, it's all good
  613. [10:48:05 AM] Siggon.k: it is up to the corp itself to determine if their members are allowed to have alt corps. so if the main membercorp doesn't think you're pulling your weight and kick your ass out, you're out of luck
  614. [10:48:49 AM] Siggon.k: corps have a large degree of autonomy in gsf. it's one of the tradeoffs of a heavy handed state at the leader level
  615. [10:49:31 AM] Symbiotes: hmm makes sense, guess I need to convince Nova I'm still a useful laddie to keep around :)
  616. [10:51:51 AM] Symbiotes: practical implementation question: does the new alliance require any gsol-like support for its own tiny footprint of sov?
  617. [10:52:41 AM] Siggon.k: that's unknown at this point, but regardless, it'll get paid from alliance funds, corps wouldn't be responsible for funding or maintaining it
  618. [10:53:15 AM] Symbiotes: I understand that part, but someone would have to fly out and install stuff and such
  619. [10:53:42 AM] Siggon.k: yeah, that would be an alliance level org in either this new alliance or via gsol
  620. [10:55:22 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I would assume that whatever sov and upgrades need to be managed initially will need to be handled by the alliance, but hopefully GSOL gets alts into the holder corp or another corp used for sov management, thus eliminating our need to do that amount of heavy lifting, unless its something we are interested in. gain, "no hassle" concept
  621. [10:57:15 AM] Symbiotes: I'd not mind helping out, but you are right being tied down to do so would not be fun when the rest of the group is roaming around all over eve
  622. [10:59:05 AM] Siggon.k: it'll either be gsol or a gsol counterpart. so either way, it won't be something that has much impact on the no hassle concept
  623. [11:09:01 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: ok - Attoy summarized the agreed concepts so far. Are there other issues we need to define at this point? If not, besides a name, what is next on the check-list of "how to form an alliance"?
  624.  
  625. Possibly, it would be nice to get a sense of who is feeling strongly about joining, who is on the fence and need more info (and what additional info do you need), and who is not inclined to join, and why, or what modifications to the overall concept would you like to see adjusted.
  626. [11:10:46 AM] Siggon.k: we've managed to do a lot more than I expected we'd get done with the fuzzy one off getting hammered at fanfest
  627. [11:12:06 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: fuzzy one is getting fuzzier?
  628. [11:12:07 AM] Siggon.k: if people are still wanting to wait and see at this point, that's no big deal. but if some corps are like "nope, this isn't for me" then that's cool, just let me know so I can remove you from this and set you up finding a home elsewhere
  629. [11:12:39 AM] Siggon.k: I'm not overly eager to give people who aren't going to stay anyway input into the process, if you can imagine
  630. [11:14:50 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: I updated the transcript for today. Its up to date as of a few minutes ago for those of you sharing it with key personnel.
  631. [11:16:56 AM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: good afternoon
  632. [11:26:42 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: o/ phineas
  633. [11:27:42 AM] Symbiotes: Hey Phineas
  634. [11:28:07 AM] Symbiotes: Chance would having a dedicated section in the transcript document for a short summary be an idea?
  635. [11:29:01 AM] Symbiotes: and we can also maybe add a list of participants in the conversation, makes it easier to tally who is ok with proceeding and who has heard enough and wants something else
  636. [11:29:12 AM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: absolutely, cut out my babbling please
  637. [11:30:09 AM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: i have ie question that i never saw in the backlog: cap building: will that still be possible within the new alliance
  638. [11:30:22 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Uhh, sure. I can do that
  639. [11:31:48 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Phineas yes, we'll have enough so for that. I proposed that we keep bug6 constellation for that purpose
  640. [11:32:05 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: *Sov for that
  641. [11:32:31 AM] Endie H: It may be worth building supers deep in deklein instead, though
  642. [11:32:36 AM] Endie H: in a gsf alt corp
  643. [11:33:07 AM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: yep i am not concereed about super, just quick dread/carrier replacementsuly. ty
  644. [11:34:20 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: What is the gsf policy on super cap and titan combat loss replacement?
  645. [11:37:19 AM] Endie H: If you are a properly skilled member of the requisite group and on an official op with an approved FC in the right fit you are golden
  646. [11:38:00 AM] Endie H: if you are camping lowsec gates in your JDC 2 cloaking hel then not so much
  647. [11:39:04 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Reasonable. And the shiny pods that go with the titans?
  648. [11:40:23 AM] Endie H: No idea: I'm too good at eve to lose one :smug:
  649. [11:41:05 AM] Chance el'Allin - P0LR: Oh. Hah!
  650. [11:48:03 AM] Attoy [ybox]: o/
  651. [11:48:08 AM] Attoy [ybox]: good evening guys
  652. [11:49:07 AM] Michael Gilbert: o/
  653. [11:49:37 AM] Attoy [ybox]: Chance, can you link the updated backlog pls? it's easier to read in gdocs
  654. [11:49:43 AM] [TETIC] Phineas Freak: supers
  655. Symbiotes
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