<Jroksl> A friend of mine on Facebook (who is not the same right winger friend with the whole "Abortion is Murder" rheortic") posted this:  https://www.facebook.com/gonzo.helm/posts/10202858117631178?stream_ref=10

<GameOver> Title: Welcome to Facebook (at www.facebook.com)

<Jroksl> "MERICA....... We need guns to protect ourselves from the ones who are supposed to be protecting us. Hitler took all of the citizens guns."

<Jroksl> Is this debunkable here?

<Jroksl> Since first of all it actually means "We need the Government off our backs because we don't want to pay taxes i.e. give our money away"

<emmeka> Are Cubans good at boxing?

<emmeka> I know Cubans for baseball.

<Mio-chan> Psh

<Mio-chan> Guns will soon be useless

<coluna_gabriel> emmeka: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGheFFg4fxE

<GameOver> Title: Tributo: Teofilo Stevenson e o Boxe Cubano. - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)

<Mio-chan> Wars will be fought in the cyber world with financial motives. :P

<Jroksl> I guess that's the future of wars there

<emmeka> Jroksl well, here in Canada we legislate the use of guns to the point where generally only hunting weapons are legal and they still are required to be registered and licensed, as a result we have less gun crime.

<Mio-chan> Jroksl, the real issue is gov'ts whom silence opposition through violent means or even just throwing them in jail

<emmeka> Guns are not freedom wands.

<emmeka> Your rifle is not going to fend off the FBI.

<Mio-chan> ^

<Mio-chan> or DHS, or any other three letter agency with access to weapons

<emmeka> I am a gun owner, I use my 20 gauge for hunting grouse. It's no weapon, it's a tool, and that's how it should be treated.

<Jroksl> Of course though what about the whole "Hitler stripping people's guns away"

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<Mio-chan> the issue is Hitler throwing political dissenters to their deaths

<Mio-chan> This is where I side with the Communists, they should have burned down more buildings...

<emmeka> Hitler did enact stricter gun laws, probably fearing the communists who just 15 years before had attempted to overthrow the state.

<Mio-chan> Yes, but the Communists also resorted to putting things on fire :P

<LoyalThird> not sure it was really that much strict

<LoyalThird> he reduce the age to own guns at 18

<Mio-chan> So guns aren't needed to get your point across

<LoyalThird> most nazi claim he reduce gun regulations

<LoyalThird> of course political ennemies probably wouldnt have right to hve them

<Mio-chan> The Communists should have burned down Berlin while they could..

<coluna_gabriel> do you guys know any good site that streams various sports?

<coluna_gabriel> i had one but i lost it

<LoyalThird> hm guys

<LoyalThird> in communism

<Mio-chan> ESPN3

<tristan__> Nazis relied on an armed racist street gangs..

<Mio-chan> Bein Sports

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<LoyalThird> what if everyone decides to declare you a non person or some shit

<tristan__> yes, Jews couldn't have guns, but they couldn't have freedom either, so it is a stupid comparison

<LoyalThird> because theres stateless democracy

<LoyalThird> i thought the jews were wimps anyway

<LoyalThird> no problem with them having guns

<Mio-chan> if I was a Jew, I'd be burning down cities in revenge

<Mio-chan> Symbolic cities, capitals, etc..

<coluna_gabriel> i found my favourite stream <3

<coluna_gabriel> http://gofirstrow.eu/

<GameOver> Title: FirstRow Live Football Stream | Watch Live Football Online | Live Soccer Stream (at gofirstrow.eu)

<Mio-chan> Also, the jews could have easily overrun the nazi officers

<Mio-chan> It's just that, there's an element of fear and misinformation

<Mio-chan> "Oh, it's just a shower!"

<Mio-chan> Thousands of people vs a few guys with a gun

<Mio-chan> Grab their guns; storm out

<coluna_gabriel> seriously, if you like sports favourite this site

<emmeka> Mio-chan not as easy as it sounds.

<Mio-chan> emmeka, if we're ever placed interim camps, we better try to fight our way out

<Mio-chan> We're gonna die either way mind as well try to take others with us :P

<coluna_gabriel> there is a massive psychological factor  caused especially by the organized and efficient way that violence was brought upon these people

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<Mio-chan> 'efficient way that violence was brought upon these people'

<coluna_gabriel> it's like a riot: cops may be outnumbered 5:1, they still get the upper hand due to organization, discipline and equipment

<emmeka> When there's a whole factory set up to kill you, it has a psychological impact Mio-chan

<Mio-chan> Annnd that's why I worry about NSA surveillance, coluna_gabriel, we don't need any more efficiency in genocide

<coluna_gabriel> when you are in a people-killing factory, that is organized and efficient. do you disagree, mio-chan?

<Mio-chan> It is very organized and efficient

<Mio-chan> Which is why there is a limited timeframe for revolt; the revolt should take place before the people-killing factory existed

<coluna_gabriel> and the working class should know how to organize and make it's class violent efficient if it wants to get an upper hand in class  war

<coluna_gabriel> Mio-chan the nazis came from the ol' friekorps

<coluna_gabriel> they were already good at this whole organized violence thing in the 20s

<Mio-chan> So essentially they had decades to perfect it

<emmeka> mmmmmmmm butternut squash soup

<Mio-chan> Into not only a physical weapon but into a psychological one.

<emmeka> I love squash so much

<Mio-chan> Well..I have a suggestion.

<coluna_gabriel> i know i'll get hate for this, but i like the idea of the party or at least certain sectors of it being militarized

<Mio-chan> How about basic military training for everyone

<Mio-chan> And nothing more

<emmeka> coluna_gabriel define militarized. As in military organization or just being armed?

<emmeka> Mio-chan how about no.

<coluna_gabriel> form of organization, discipline

<emmeka> I'm not going to be the one teaching city kids how to shoulder a rifle.

<Leevancleef> AKM in Russia runs itself in a sort of paramilitary style. I'm not sure they even have guns though.

<emmeka> Leevancleef what's AKM?

<Leevancleef> But that didn't stop their leaders from getting arrested for an alleged terrorist bombing plot

<Leevancleef> Vanguard of Red Youth, part of the Left Front

<Leevancleef> And the largest party in the bloc IIRC

<Mio-chan> emmeka but but

<Mio-chan> Finland does it!

<Mio-chan> It's called conscription!

<nuit> are they communists Leevancleef

<nuit> or just red nationalists

<coluna_gabriel> i think the party needs at least a clandestine militarized dispositive to be put into action in case of necessity

<emmeka> coluna_gabriel I think the usefulness of that is overstated.

<Leevancleef> I don't know much about the AKM's particular politics but the Left Front as a whole seems to be fairly legit.

<emmeka> The long and short of it is that if they want to throw us into concentration camps, they can.

<coluna_gabriel> emmeka but it could save specific cadres

<Mio-chan> and if they do, we fight back, k?

<emmeka> There's not a lot we can do about it, besides training all members in how to live in the Canadian wilderness and keeping weapon caches (which I don't recommend)

<Tjis[moo]> Hallo

<coluna_gabriel> preserving the hard nucleous and some important intermediate cadre

<emmeka> Mio-chan that's not quite so easy.

<Tjis[moo]> Ooh I'm Moo now

<Mio-chan> Train everyone in martial arts

* GameOver licks Tjis[moo]

<Mio-chan> How to disarm someone, etc.

<emmeka> Hi Tjis(moo)

* GameOver licks emmeka

<coluna_gabriel> emmeka also having an emergency escape  plan, some sort of individual survival dispositive in the case of important cadre

<emmeka> Mio-chan, yeah, martial arts, that will really stop a sweep of arrests.

<coluna_gabriel> the colombians are masters at this

<emmeka> coluna_gabriel the Colombians are in a different situation.

<Mio-chan> emmeka, they shouldn't be allowed to drag us out of our houses without a fight

<emmeka> I don't think it's possible to effectively plan ahead for a government reaction.

<nuit> Mio-chan: ya im sure after a few martial arts courses ull be able to fight off a police raid

<coluna_gabriel> well, i can't tell you with certainty that in 5 or 10 years my country won't be in a similar situation

<emmeka> Mio-chan again, it's not so easy.

<Mio-chan> I know

<Mio-chan> You may end up dead before they arrest you

<Mio-chan> at least that's better than spending life in a camp

<coluna_gabriel> things historically aren't that stable down here

<coluna_gabriel> no it's not, Mio-chan

<Tjis[moo]> It's a good idea to have people that can fight at your demonstrations and the like

<emmeka> Kids seem to think that a gun is some sort of protection wand and if the government comes from you, it will save you.

<emmeka> Guess what, they have a whole lot more guns than you.

<coluna_gabriel> it is important to make sure that if important cadre are caught, they must be kept alive

<coluna_gabriel> you have to preserve the core party structures in the best fashion possible

<emmeka> The core of the party would be the very first thing targetted if the state has any sense to it,

<Tjis[moo]> But we can't expect to outcompete the National military. Not without a convenient countryside that is troublesome to control completely

<Mio-chan> How about this...home built nuclear reactors in every communists' home.

<Tjis[moo]> Such a thing is entirely absent in the Netherlands of course

<Mio-chan> if police come, make it have a meltdown :D

<coluna_gabriel> emmeka, i don't think we will fight them off. i'm talking about very specific dispositives for very specific people

<Mio-chan> Hold your whole entire town hostage xD

<nuit> are u advocating ppw Tjis[moo]

* GameOver licks nuit

<emmeka> Tjis(moo) this is to a degree present in Canada, but still, I don't think training cadre to survive the Canadian wilderness is a good use of our time.

* GameOver licks emmeka

<Mio-chan> Okay, better idea..

<coluna_gabriel> it's important for at least CC and politburo members to have a safehouse/place and an escape route planned and ready, just in case

<Mio-chan> If there was a plan..why don't we just destroy their computer systems that are storing the data of everyone? :D Then they won't be able to carry out arrests.

<coluna_gabriel> like, some cash, food, clothes etc

<Tjis[moo]> Nuit I'm saying ppw strategies make no sense in countries where the countryside is practically 'urbanized', not that ppw is a good strategy otherwise necessarily

<coluna_gabriel> maybe a small tent

<emmeka> coluna_gabriel I don't even have food and cash to start with.

<TXRoadkill> coluna_gabriel> it's important for at least CC and politburo members to have a safehouse/place and an escape route planned and ready, just in case << an 'undisclosed location'?

<coluna_gabriel> yes

<coluna_gabriel> for individual preservation

<emmeka> I think this isn't really possible.

<coluna_gabriel> i'm not talking big stuff

<Tjis[moo]> Safe houses should be easy for a large org

<emmeka> Thing is I think we would all be apprehended before anything could even be coordinated.

<coluna_gabriel> like, a small tent, 2 changes of clothes, a few cans of beans and some water

<emmeka> If the state wanted to arrest us, it can...

<coluna_gabriel> first sign of shit getting ugly, grab the bag and get a cab

<emmeka> coluna_gabriel you need a lot more than that to survive Canadian winters.

<coluna_gabriel> yeah, that would be shit...

<coluna_gabriel> but this is a temporary solution

<coluna_gabriel> like, a few days or weeks max untill the party can articulate some sort of escape from the country or some re-location to another less exposed area

<emmeka> If we were being serious about this, what we would need is a remote property with all ameneties (including a woodstove, or else we'd be dead) and cadre who are trained in how to live off the land.

<coluna_gabriel> like the countryside or another big city

<Mio-chan> Well..

<Mio-chan> Cunhal was rumored to have escaped with help from the Soviets..

<coluna_gabriel> and again, this is for preserving people like Cunhal and shit like that

<Mio-chan> So you could collaborate on a global scale with other parties

<coluna_gabriel> most of the militance would be fucked

<coluna_gabriel> and there isn't much we can do about it

<Mio-chan> Idea. GET ALASKA :D

<DarkPrincess> http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/19dg4duu6p27rgif_0.gif

<Mio-chan> Only problem is the US military presence xD

<Mio-chan> LoyalThird is also very queit

<Mio-chan> quiet*

<Mio-chan> he must be compiling the NSA list right now

<emmeka> I can confirm that LoyalThird is not NSA

<LoyalThird> how acn you confirm

<LoyalThird> you must be nsa

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<coluna_gabriel> no you are NSA

<LoyalThird> no u

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<emmeka> Well I suppose I technically can't, but if so you're a dedicated one considering we were talking about the same shit like 5 years ago.

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<Mio-chan> Hey there nuit

<coluna_gabriel> you two know each other for 5 years?

<nuit> hm what happened?

<emmeka> Yeah LoyalThird and I used to argue about separatism when I was like 15.

<LoyalThird> hwo is that a proof that im not nsa

<LoyalThird> nsa peopel dont have webcams or computers

<LoyalThird> i think i met you when you debated third worldist

<emmeka> Yeah that was back when you were a third worldist with strasserist sympathies :P

<nuit> how does that work

<LoyalThird> meh

<LoyalThird> it works when you dont define yourself as anything

<emmeka> nuit fucked if I know :P

<LoyalThird> im not really sure i had strasserist sympathies

<nuit> well i suppose it could

<nuit> u admitted to being a strasserite LoyalThird

<LoyalThird> i was watching alot of an org in france

<LoyalThird> i didnt admit to being a strasserite

<LoyalThird> i think i admitted not knowing what i claimed to be

<nuit> in the past

<LoyalThird> which is different

<LoyalThird> well i mostly identified with said org in france

<LoyalThird> but i dont think you can really call yourself a member when you dont know their position on everything and some of them would make you leaveo r something

<emmeka> I can recall specifically talking with you about Strasser.

<LoyalThird> yes, i mostly and still think hes less bad than hitler

<coluna_gabriel> strasserism ewwwwwwwwww

<emmeka> Hitler is probably not a good starting point to compare how bad something is

<nuit> LoyalThird: france has a rich revolutionary history - why focus on fascism?

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<LoyalThird> nuit: ive been reading and listening to all types of people, something i sometime regret

<LoyalThird> i think the left doesnt want to admit how bad religion is in some way in the name of tolerance

<LoyalThird> and this includes sects and so called freemasonry/illuminati

<emmeka> Speaking of which how fucking old are you LoyalThird, when we were talking back then I think you were in your early to mid 20s.

<LoyalThird> freemasonry was denounced by trotsky, and there was no freemasonry in communist countries

<LoyalThird> emmeka: im not telling you, im scared of the fascist and the antifa and the freemasons and the cops and the dwarves

<emmeka> LoyalThird fun fact: Tommy Douglas was a freemason

<LoyalThird> meh

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<LoyalThird> no wonder he had influence

<LoyalThird> JUST SAYIN

<nuit> we need a comunist organization like the freemasons

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<nuit> there actually was one in france for a short period of time

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<LoyalThird> i agree

<LoyalThird> but it shouldnt be freemason

<emmeka> ILLUMINATI

<LoyalThird> taht same fash leader of taht org

<Tjis> hurray I am home

<LoyalThird> said taht communist secret networks disassembled when the fall of the soviet union occured

<LoyalThird> and they joined freemasonry

<LoyalThird> the only secret networks would be the fascist that are left

<Tjis> I like how you can tell the exact moment I walk into my appartment complex cause it'll make my alt join

<LoyalThird> other ones or something

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<emmeka> http://gawker.com/5886988/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-illuminati-the-conspiracy-theory-that-connects-jay+z-and-queen-elizabeth

<LoyalThird> hehe

<LoyalThird> the illuminati are dead anyway

<nuit> LoyalThird: what do u mean by the left not wanting to adit how bad religion is

<LoyalThird> it is said they contaminated teh freemasons with their ideas

<nuit> and how do u relate that to masonry

<LoyalThird> nuit: they never attack sects

<nuit> sects?

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<gffa> LoyalThird: Well, consider that they wouldn't be very good secret networks of you know that they exist.

<LoyalThird> scientology

<emmeka> Freemasons don't do anything

<nuit> scientology isn't particularly relevant

<emmeka> I've met freemasons

<gffa> "The only secret networks..." is a bit of a funny claim to make.

<LoyalThird> gffa: thats not true, theres oaths that says you cant tell who are the other members or somthing

<nuit> i considered becoming a mason emmeka

<emmeka> All they do is drink beer and think they're all secretive.

<LoyalThird> emmeka: not all of them are supposed to do something

<nuit> but ultimately decided against it

<nuit> emmeka: they also have charities, etc

<gffa> It depends on your definition of "secret"

<nuit> dinner parties

<LoyalThird> :/

<gffa> is the existence of the network a secret?

<LoyalThird> im sure freemasonry is similar to scientology

<gffa> Or are the inner workings of it secret?

<LoyalThird> that there is widespread abuse of members

<nuit> no

<nuit> no there isn't

<emmeka> gffa it's a secret society, no a clandestine one. The society is open about its existence but keeps its inner workings secret to nonmembers.

<LoyalThird> the real problem with secret societies like the freemasons is that they boast their influence even if it isnt true

<LoyalThird> which fuels conspiracy theories about them

<LoyalThird> but i guess its a good way to spraed disinfo

<nuit> how do they do that LoyalThird

<nuit> they do the exact opposite fro my experience

<Tanasinn> Ask G0VERNMENT, he's a mason

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<LoyalThird> nuit: what do you mean? are teh documents that the far-right discover all forgeries?

<LoyalThird> g0v: is guilty of similar things, boasting about undue influence

<LoyalThird> either that or its fucking scary

<emmeka> "I know this sounds counterintuitive, but prominent Illuminati members frequently flag their Illuminati connections. Like how in Lady Gaga's "Born This Way" video, there's that goat head-shaped star formation? Or have you ever seen Jay-Z's video for "On to the Next One"? It has a goat skull in it. Goats, bro."

<nuit> what documents they discover?

<emmeka> does this make me a member of the illuminati

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<gffa> The Freemasons I met are middle-aged middle-class white men who like to "subtly" boast about their secret membership.

<gffa> they're obnoxious and boring, yet think their membership makes them more interesting.

<LoyalThird> nuit: some documents by bnai brith that says jewish freemasons invented radical impossible ideologies like communsim to destroy the catholic church

<gffa> lol

<LoyalThird> emmeka: i suspect you from the beginning emmeka

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<LoyalThird> ist true taht the catholic church gets alot of heat in the media

<LoyalThird> they also claim to have infiltrated it to commit abuse taht would make the church look bad etc

<emmeka> I've been to a freemason dinner

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<nuit> LoyalThird: u should read this http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/

<nuit> it obviously lacks class analysis but its still good

<emmeka> And yes, all freemasons I have met have been middle-age white guys who basically do nothing but drink beer there, but because it's SECRET it makes them interesting.

<gffa> Are atheists and women still not allowed to enter?

<LoyalThird> your saying this stuff was in normal right wing circles back then?

<nuit> gffa: in british masonry they aren't

<gffa> emmeka: I'm not surprised that you had the same experiences that I had.

<LoyalThird> the people against freemasonry do say its not all freemasons who are part of the so called csonpiracy

<Commissar> gffa: Well to be a mason you need to express a belief in some "higher power"

<Commissar> Lots of atheists are in it anyway

<emmeka> LoyalThird I don't know why you care about the freemasons when in Canada we have the Orange Order which does directly effect politics and is basically the organization of the anglo élite

<gffa> No different from major religious institutions, I guess.

<gffa> Lots of atheists are in those as well.

<LoyalThird> emmeka: i care about all societies like that

<LoyalThird> i just tend to know only about the freemasons due to mostly getting this from france

<emmeka> LoyalThird http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order_in_Canada

<GameOver> Title: Orange Order in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)

<nuit> LoyalThird: the catholic one you mentioned is funny because of the anti-catholic conspiracy theories

<LoyalThird> ive heard people against the orangist

<emmeka> That flag is a disgrace.

<LoyalThird> they are like teh klu klux klan

<tristan__> its like any frat club

<LoyalThird> nuit: i know

<emmeka> Orangists are literally a secret society controlling shit though, they do it pretty openly.

<emmeka> It's just basically the society of old white anglo business owners

<LoyalThird> hm emmeka

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<LoyalThird> you talked about tommy douglas being a freemason

<LoyalThird> this page says hes an organist too

<emmeka> hah

<LoyalThird> well

<LoyalThird> not so different than freemasons who have a fucking website but they are a secret society

<emmeka> Tommy Douglas is the orangist oppressor

<LoyalThird> all those orgs are anti-worker in their essence

<gffa> I'm pretty sure the freemasons are anti-worker as well.

<tristan__> speaking of the KKK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katipunan

<GameOver> Title: Katipunan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)

<nuit> LoyalThird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ac%C3%A9phale

<GameOver> Title: Acéphale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)

<emmeka> Secret society doesn't mean clandestine society. Secret society just means that its inner workings aren't made known to anyone but members.

<nuit> this is the organization in france i mentioned

<nuit> well, secret society

<LoyalThird>  There was discussion amongst members about the possibility of carrying out a human sacrifice, but these discussions were never put into action

<LoyalThird> lol

<LoyalThird> lol emmeka

<nuit> they were influenced by sorel LoyalThird

<LoyalThird> the fascists were influenced by sorel too

<nuit> yep

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<nuit> LoyalThird: http://www.marxists.org/subject/anarchism/bataille/sacred-conspiracy.htm

<GameOver> Title: The Sacred Conspiracy by Georges Bataille 1936 (at www.marxists.org)

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<qrf> Haha Georges Bataille

<qrf> What the hell is he doing on marxists.org

<qrf> I first encountered him in the context of Deathspell Omega

<nuit> well he was a comunist

<nuit> whats deathspell omega

<Mio-chan> I'm gonna start reading more communist literature soon :)

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<tristan__> http://pastebin.com/tZYvK7UD

<GameOver> Title: 00:45 <@[-wolong-]> why can't just everyone follow and understand maths 00:45 < - Pastebin.com (at pastebin.com)

<emmeka> Surrealism why

<emmeka> tristan__ what am I reading

<LoyalThird> hm emmeka

<LoyalThird> do you know how the law on spreading false information works?

<tristan__> http://www.dailydoge.org/2014/01/dogecoin-price-manipulation/

<LoyalThird> in canada

<GameOver> Title: Dogecoin Price Manipulation | DogeCoin News Site (at www.dailydoge.org)

<tristan__> context ^

<LoyalThird> the law taht zundel and holocaust deniers were convicted on

<tristan__> best quote:

<tristan__> 'In a way, it even undermines the legitimacy of Dogecoin.'

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<LoyalThird> like that coin was ever legitimate in any sort of way in the first place

<emmeka> LoyalThird there were formerly laws against the media spreading misinformation, they were repealed a few years ago

<nuit> doesn't canada have some hate speech laws

<LoyalThird> emmeka: ?? you mean its alright to spread holocaust denial info?

<nuit> no

<nuit> where did he approve of that

<nuit> what are ur thoughts on holocaust denial LoyalThird

<emmeka> LoyalThird that would fall under hate crime laws.

<LoyalThird>  i thought false news was how it was repressed

<LoyalThird> i dont know what to say nuit, i think the holocaust did happen

<LoyalThird> i do think some people think that it didnt happen, like they are honest

<LoyalThird> but like alot of conspiracy theory the poitn is often to discredit some political plan or action ,or put doubt in it

<LoyalThird> that would be israel or the fight against antisemitism

<nuit> well, no the point here is to legitimize

<nuit> specificailly to legitimize national socialism/white supremacy and its contemporary varities

<LoyalThird> legitimize antisemitism or national socialism

<emmeka> Hitler was a reptilian shapeshifter from another dimension just the like the jews

<LoyalThird> i dont understand why they need legitimacy

<LoyalThird> alot of those people would be sad hitler didnt kill 6 million jews

<emmeka> Yes that's a thing I've never understood.

<emmeka> A lot of holocaust denial is done by people who would legitimately like all jews dead

<LoyalThird> i think someone in france once wrote that any nazi who doesnt take auschwitz seriously is not a serious nazi

<nuit> LoyalThird: right, its exactly what adorno pointed out was a feature of all such movements - projection

<emmeka> So why not celebrate the man who actually tried to do it? I don't get it.

<LoyalThird> emmeka: many tend to give an image that they wouldnt

<nuit> LoyalThird: particularly with the conspiracy theories about how the jews are genociding white people

<LoyalThird> yes

<LoyalThird> race mixing is genocide

<nuit> so it turns out that the jews are genociding white people, like what the nazis didn't do to the jews, but it totally should be done today

<LoyalThird> the jews is responsible for all our problems

<LoyalThird> not like the nazis are responsible for all of the jew's problem

<nuit> LoyalThird: right, not only that, but ultimately what they claim others are doing is generally what they want to do

<LoyalThird> yes

<LoyalThird> but i sometime question myself when they claim to be persecuted

<LoyalThird> isnt politics just a dirty game

<LoyalThird> arent both side doing bad things, very similar things

<modulus> wow tristan__ - nice trading collusion there ;-)

<modulus> going nicely wrong too

<tristan__> haha

<emmeka> Mao killed 12 billion people don't you know

<nuit> LoyalThird: like?

<nuit> that sounds like a common sense truism

<LoyalThird> mao must be jewish like the yuong turks who killed the armenians

<LoyalThird> well, both side are harassing and using violence against one another

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<LoyalThird> how can we say those movements are about projection

<nuit> what does that mean?

<modulus> tristan___: pretty lulz

<LoyalThird> when its just a political reality

<modulus> LoyalThird: so what

<modulus> using violence for good is good, using violence for evil is evil

<tristan__> modulus: and people talking about if it is illegal

<modulus> simple shit

<tristan__> how the fuck is it illegal

<LoyalThird> maybe the whtie race is the last bastion of civilisation

<LoyalThird> thus it would be violence for good

<emmeka> lol

<nuit> um what

<modulus> tristan___: in a regulated market it would be pretty illegal

<tristan__> modulus: right... but this is dogecoin!

<LoyalThird> i doubt the fascist use violence and know its evil or something

<modulus> he true

<modulus> it's lol that they tried to do it and didn't manage though

<modulus> and that the insult they use against people who do it is selfish

<modulus> because manipulating a market is totally selfless act

<nuit> LoyalThird: i think this is just hegemonic discourse: both sides are the same therefore we must stay with our postpolitical, neutral, liberal capitalism

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<LoyalThird> i dont think the liberal capitalist are in any way less violent

<LoyalThird> they just have less need to use violence

<nuit> LoyalThird: so how are 'both sides the same'?

<nuit> same in what?

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<LoyalThird> in methods

<LoyalThird> perhaps liberal acpitalism is less worse

<LoyalThird> you can see in the types of regime that are put in place that intimidation is a tactic before being put in palce

<LoyalThird> like the communist and teh fascist both atttack each other

<LoyalThird> and when in power, they all use violence and strong repression

<LoyalThird> though i would argue that we are not living in anything wrose than post-stalin USSR when it comes to repression

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<nuit> LoyalThird: well in methods they're only superficially similar and perhaps not even that, but ill come back to this later

<nuit> LoyalThird: right, in benjaminian terms we can eliminate constituted violence but eliminating constitutive violence is more difficult and potentially infeasible at all

<nuit> LoyalThird: but i think we should embrace this - dictatorship is not the other of democracy but its very mode of functioning

<LoyalThird> i tend to see testimonies of fascist being targeted by antifa to be very similar to what anarchists say about being targeted by fascist

<nuit> so?

<nuit> we cna maybe reproach the antifa for not being more violent

<LoyalThird> i think i'll rather play it ancap style

<LoyalThird> and have a gun and shot someone who steps on my lawn

<Tjis> what? LoyalThird is now ancap?

<Tjis> what did I return to

<LoyalThird> im not

<LoyalThird> lol

<LoyalThird> but i think its much more laid back and cool

<Mio-chan> ancap?

<Mio-chan> Oh my

<nuit> LoyalThird: being neutral is simply support of the status quo - not taking sides is already taking sides

<Mio-chan> I'm with nuit on this

<Mio-chan> (I can't believe I just agreed with nuit for once :P)

<Tjis> as am I! what are we talking about?

<nuit> how fascists and communists are the same

<Tjis> lol what

<LoyalThird> on the subject of violence

<LoyalThird> im not really talking about communist but anarchist to be honest

<negativecreep1> lolwat*

<Tjis> negativecreep1: Proper spelling is important though.

<negativecreep1> Nah, language is the language of the dominant class. So unproper spelling is inherently anti-capitalist

<Tjis> kommunisme

<negativecreep1> exakt

<Mio-chan> Gah

<negativecreep1> *eksakt

<jacobian> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/26/women-wisdom-papyrus-female-belief-ancient-geopolitics

<GameOver> Title: How women's wisdom was lost | Bettany Hughes | Comment is free | The Guardian (at www.theguardian.com)

<negativecreep1> proletaries

<Mio-chan> To be able to communicate effectively allows us to be better organized

<Mio-chan> Don't underestimate the power of the written language

<Mio-chan> One pamphlet could change the outcome of a revolution

<negativecreep1> No, workers are dumb so they can't understand proper language

<Mio-chan> I disagree, completely.

<negativecreep1> k

<qrf> "Papyrus shreds reveal there was a time when female deities were fundamental to popular belief. Yet ancient geopolitics caused them to be sidelined"

<qrf> Is this supposed to be a joke

<Mio-chan> Look at Poe..

<qrf> Female deities were all over the place

<Mio-chan> Drunk and poor.

<Mio-chan> Yet a master of the English language

<qrf> Well into 800-1200 CE in Europe, too

<negativecreep1> Poe was a pretty shit writer tbh

<qrf> I liked The Conqueror Worm by Poe

<negativecreep1> I prefer John Green.

<qrf> That was about it

<negativecreep1> he's the best writer ever

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<tristan__> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

<GameOver> Title: Transnistria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)

<tristan__> 'After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Transnistria wanted to return to a "Brezhnev-style planned economy"'

<tristan__> interesting

<LoyalThird> they dont even have any prison there

<tristan__> they switched to market, but still

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<tristan__> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Nagorno-Karabakh.svg

<GameOver> Title: File:Flag of Nagorno-Karabakh.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)

<tristan__> terrible graphics

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<Mio-chan> Ooo oo

<Mio-chan> Into Eternity is on Al Jazeera atm.

<Mio-chan> The documentary on Onkalo, the nuclear storage repository in Finland :D

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<jacobian> http://economia.ie/ec/2014/the-oppression-ouroboros-intersectionality-will-eat-itself/0125/

<GameOver> Title: Economia » The oppression ouroboros: intersectionality will eat itself (at economia.ie)

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<tristan__> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tootsie_Roll#Korean_War

<GameOver> Title: Tootsie Roll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)

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<ArrowLance> thats the best

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<LoyalThird> anyone who knows stuff about computers here?

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<LoyalThird> i need help

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<LoyalThird> hi g0v

<LoyalThird> how do you tell if some freemasonry document are falsified6

<LoyalThird> ?

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<Mio-chan> Why is it so quiet :(

<ferros> Because we hate talking with you, Mio-chan

<bajin> :o

<Mio-chan> lies!

<Mio-chan> :P

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<LoyalThird> what do you guys think of the gender theory?

<LoyalThird> and attempts to make kids paly with toys outside their sex

<qrf> lol "outside their sex"

<qrf> Are you saying that toys are inherently sexed

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<Leevancleef> The school’s overt emphasis on religion—and on one religion in  particular—is all perfectly legitimate and lawful under the Constitution  and the First Amendment. Just ask the superintendent of schools in the  parish, Sara Ebarb, who has said, “[t]his is the Bible Belt”

<Leevancleef> and who  asked the parents of a Buddhist student recently if he “has to be raised  Buddhist” or if he could “change” his faith and suggested to them that  he should transfer to a school where “there are more Asians.”

<Tjis> LoyalThird: is it just the toys? is it better if girls play house with action figures instead of baby dolls?

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<LoyalThird> lol i meant

<LoyalThird> outside what is considered gender stereotype

<LoyalThird> boys with cars, girls with dolls

<G0VERNMENT> Aren't gi Joe's dolls?

<Tjis> it is not so much about the toys themselves but about the fact that children are re-enacting traditional gender roles in their play

<LoyalThird> tjis: well apparently the fash are saying they will force kid to play with toys that are the opposite of liek, what they usually play with

<LoyalThird> tjis: how are we supposed to know what is biological and what is just social gender roles

<G0VERNMENT> The fascists are going to do this?

<LoyalThird> g0v: they kind of are

<LoyalThird> lol no

<LoyalThird> the schools are going to do this

<LoyalThird> the fash are going berserk about this

<LoyalThird> the foundation of our civilization is at stake etc

<Tjis> LoyalThird: well, it's already a reality that men take care of children too, and women work. yet in play we still mostly see girls with baby dolls and guys acting out various manly jobs

<LoyalThird> well yeah

<Tjis> like firemen, policemen

<Tjis> soldier

<LoyalThird> but how bad is it social

<Tjis> so that is not biological. that is cultural

<LoyalThird> i think men have more aggressivity and violence though

<LoyalThird> firemen and policemen are clearly more violent jobs

<G0VERNMENT> Personally I'm not sure anyone should be role playing soldier or  policeman

<LoyalThird> lol good point

<Tjis> possibly. some children require more movement, need to use more energy. but this doesn't imply any particular play content

<LoyalThird> well it could imply the type of play they want

<LoyalThird> like they would admire sportsmen

<G0VERNMENT> They should just offer the same psychologically constrictive toys to all kids and let them choose from there

<LoyalThird> what do you mean by that?

<LoyalThird> just let kids choose?

<G0VERNMENT> Why do you need to have soldier dolls when you can have puzzles

<G0VERNMENT> Or art things

<LoyalThird> well some kids dont like soldier dolls

<LoyalThird> thogh to be honest that would stimulate their intellects more

<LoyalThird> but maybe not, since soldier dolls implies taht the kind imagines war situations etc

<Tjis> it's not just about letting kids choose. kids don't have much capacity of choosing, to a large extent they'll agree with any idea as long as it's presented shiny enough.

<Mio-chan> About gender stereotypes

<G0VERNMENT> Tjis it's about controlled choice

<Mio-chan> I nearly went into cosmetology

<Tjis> if commercials typically have girls playing in model kitchens and guys in toy cars, that's going to determine what girls and guys like

<G0VERNMENT> Why do we have to give them any gendered toys

<ferros> Will you do my nails, Mio-chan?

<LoyalThird> uh

<Mio-chan> HAIR not nails :P

<LoyalThird> the owmen in model kitchens dont really exist anymore at least from what i know

<Mio-chan> I don't like dealing with nails, sorry xD

<Tjis> gendered toys are not a problem by themselves I think. The problem is when they reinforce harmful patterns in society

<ferros> You're not touching my hair, Mio-chan!

<LoyalThird> women always have nice jobs in series and are not housewives anymore

<LoyalThird> at least not on tv

<Tjis> I do not think that associating the color pink with girls and blue with guys has as much of a negative effect as associating domestic work with girls and dangerous jobs with guys

<G0VERNMENT> Tjis well it's not the same magnitude

<G0VERNMENT> But we should get rid of that too

<qrf> That colour association pisses me off, too

<qrf> I also alternatingly purchase deodorants marketed "for women" and "for men"

<Tjis> I do not think we should get rid of gender necessarily, just the gender binary

<G0VERNMENT> I hate the smell of female deodorant

<Tjis> I have no idea what to buy :(

<Tjis> I do generally buy within the 'for men' section though

<LoyalThird> tjis: you are conforming to the system

<G0VERNMENT> Tjis gender is inherently oppressive

<Tjis> totally

<Mio-chan> I use shaving cream labeled "for women"

<G0VERNMENT> The whole point is the sexual  division of labor

<Tjis> G0VERNMENT: yes it is. but I doubt we'll have the ability to abolish it given the centrality of reproduction to our species, sexuality to our reproduction and gender to our sexuality

<Mio-chan> errrr gel

<Mio-chan> and for body wash I use Irish Spring!

<Mio-chan> :D

<Mio-chan> I <3 Irish Spring

<G0VERNMENT> Tjis i think if everyone became pansexual it's possible

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<Tjis> that's silly

<G0VERNMENT> why?

<G0VERNMENT> A lot of sexuality is culturally imposed

<ferros> You're very sexy, G0VERNMENT.

<G0VERNMENT> :o

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<bajin> :o

<G0VERNMENT> Since when?

<LoyalThird> lol

<LoyalThird> nto sure that much of sexuality is socially imposed

<LoyalThird> this stuff about differences in what people arel ooking for in partners in different society is a bit ridiculous

<Leevancleef> Well, you know how those liberals love big G0VERNMENT

<ferros> I don't know, I'm not keeping historical record of your sexiness, G0VERNMENT.

<LoyalThird> hm

<LoyalThird> if i go at university

<LoyalThird> and have a bachelor in somethingà

<LoyalThird> then i do a master in something else, what happens

<LoyalThird> i mean do i get new stuff in the master or what is it

<G0VERNMENT> you do original research in a masters program

<ferros> Your question is not grammatical, LoyalThird.

<G0VERNMENT> Generally

<ferros> But apparently G0VERNMENT understood :)

<Tjis> the master is a specialisation of the bachelor, it's not supposed to be an extra year of random courses I believe

<Mio-chan> Bahahaha Leevancleef

<ferros> I don't really see it this way. Bachelor is a technical course, it's supposed to be preparing people for work in a field.

<Mio-chan> And the conservatives love when G0VERNMENT is small

<ferros> Master's is a research programme

<Tjis> ferros: generally not in a randomly different field.

<ferros> Generally, yes.

<ferros> Though you'd be surprised, Tjis :)

<ferros> Especially in Europe with the new laws.

<Tjis> I'm not really seeing it happen around here..

<G0VERNMENT> Ferros there are some exceptions though like law

<ferros> We get a lot of people from random sociology stuff in quant economics those days.

<Tjis> I mean, someone doing physics might go for a math major or the other way around

<Tjis> but that's only possible due to a great deal of overlap

<ferros> Nah, you can pretty much go do anything you like if you can pass the entrance

<Tjis> well I assume sociology did have proper lessons in statistics and such

<ferros> At least here

<ferros> Haha, sociology and proper statistics :D

<G0VERNMENT> Political science folks often go IR, Econ or Sociology

<ferros> They draw circles in Excel

<Tjis> well yes here too, but how are you going to pass the entrance if you weren't taught the prerequisites?

<G0VERNMENT> If they don't like polisci

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<Mio-chan> oh my

<Mio-chan> Please don't laugh but I couldn't get a bottle of English Leather aftershave open

<Mio-chan> so I used an adjustable wrench

<Mio-chan> xDDDd

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<LoyalThird> hm how do university degree work

<LoyalThird> do you just get enough credit to get a degree?

<jacobian> depends on the country and university

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<jacobian> At the university of NM where I got my degree you had to obtain a specific list of classes, classes from specific categories and then a total number of credits.

<LoyalThird> uh

<LoyalThird> well i thought you would need to get like whatever classes who have to do with the degree

<LoyalThird> and have a certain total amount of credit

<LoyalThird> but im not sure

<LoyalThird> and the information number i called doesnt seem to say anything

<Leevancleef> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/26/pope-doves-attacked-by-crow-seagull-st-peters-square

<GameOver> Title: Pope's peace doves attacked by crow and seagull | World news | theguardian.com (at www.theguardian.com)

<Leevancleef> "Speaking at the window beforehand, Francis appealed for peace in Ukraine, where anti-government protesters have died."

<Leevancleef> Is it an omen?

<Leevancleef> Could probably insert a statement on western hypocracy here.

<qrf> The whole thing in Ukraine still seems to be primarily aligned with ethnic groups

<Leevancleef> It's not

<Tjis> hail Satan

<jacobian> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=652449168127832&set=a.243410369031716.55311.100000882635534&type=1

<GameOver> Title: Mobile Uploads (at www.facebook.com)

<Tjis> but what about democratic ukraine 2012

<Tjis> kiev*

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<LoyalThird> there are different ethnicities in ukraine?

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<Tjis> not so much ethnicities I think, but part of Ukraine speaks Russian and another part speaks Ukrainan

<Tjis> as primary language

<Tjis> ok I'm leaving bye

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<Mio-chan> Oh wow that is a really bad omen, the thing regarding the peace doves in Ukraine

<Mio-chan> I say we take the space laser and just wipe Ukraine from existence

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<tristan__> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/23/ukrainian-far-right-groups-violence-kiev-pravy-sektor

<GameOver> Title: Ukrainian far-right group claims to be co-ordinating violence in Kiev | World news | theguardian.com (at www.theguardian.com)

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<G0VERNMENT> !seen laigualdad

<GameOver> G0VERNMENT: laigualdad was last seen in ##marxism 2 days, 18 hours, 17 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <laigualdad> lol

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<emmeka> Okay ##marxism time for serious advice.

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<emmeka> I'm being encouraged by the political action committee of the local labour council to run for city council

<emmeka> I am not sure how to react to this

<emmeka> Due to Belleville's proportional representation election system, my chances of winning such an election are nonzero. I could finish sixth and still win.

<emmeka> But this is a large undertaking and I am not so sure

<emmeka> the fact that they are aware of my party membership and suggesting this still means a lot to me.

* emmeka listens to the sound of crickets

<emmeka> alrighty then

<LennyKitty> sorry

<LennyKitty> emmeka: Meh, parlament isnt that useful

<LennyKitty> its useful as a speaker

* emmeka rolls his eyes

<emmeka> City council, not parliament.

<emmeka> And as the Euros here are fond to point out, Canada has decentralization fever. Municipalities have a fair degree of power.

<emmeka> My ability to impact things as a councilor would be limited but nonzero.

<Tanasinn> emmeka: I'd encourage you to do it

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<VIPPER> Unless it interferes with your personal life too much

<VIPPER> In terms of time consumption

<emmeka> VIPPER I'm laid off right now. I have nothing to lose.

<emmeka> If anything I'm probably one of the better people to do this demographically. Young laid off factory worker. I'm Belleville personified.

<agnosticnixie> emmeka - are you planning on running for the CPML?

<agnosticnixie> CPCML

<emmeka> agnosticnixie what gave you the idea I'm a part of the CPC-ML.

<agnosticnixie> the fact that you're canadian and a self described marxist leninist

<emmeka> agnosticnixie in Ontario municipal elections are nonpartisan.

<agnosticnixie> you mean there's more ML outfits?

<emmeka> agnosticnixie CPC-ML is hoxhaist.

<agnosticnixie> oh

<agnosticnixie> really? lol

<emmeka> agnosticnixie the mainstream party is the CPC.

<agnosticnixie> I see

<emmeka> Or PCQ for you.

<bajin> EN VER HOX HA

<emmeka> Anyway municipal elections are nonpartisan so I'd be running as me. But the people proposing this are aware of my party membership.

<agnosticnixie> so is the CPCML platform to cover the country in bunkers from Saint-John's to Haida Gwai

<agnosticnixie> >.>

<GameOver> <.<

<bajin> >.<

<GameOver> o.o

<bajin> i bet agnosticnixie would vote for cpc-ml

<emmeka> agnosticnixie the CPC-ML program is that separatism is evil and everyone else is revisionists and we need CANADIAN SOVEREIGNTY NAO - which I presume means bunkers everywhere, yes. Dig a trench from Vancouver to Kenora.

<VIPPER> agnosticnixie runs the CPC-ML

<agnosticnixie> right

<bajin> yup

<emmeka> agnosticnixie CPC-ML is one of the two commie groups in Quebec that refuses to join Quebec Solidaire :P the other being the PCR-RCP.

<agnosticnixie> the thing that annoys me the most with Hoxha is that without the nationalism he had some ideas that were solid for Albania; it did have the problem of three very annoying religious clergies trying to step on toes; even the fascistoid monarchy of Zog I basically told the muslim and christian leaders to get bent when he took over

<agnosticnixie> without the nationalism it would also probably have avoided the Kosovo war tbh; Tito was offering Kosovo if Albania joined Yugoslavia as a republic

<bajin> tito jackson

<agnosticnixie> also Albanian national sovereignty was quite a different thing from canadian national (lol) sovereignty

<agnosticnixie> there's no fucking point in canadian national liberation

<agnosticnixie> :p

<emmeka> Yes the idea of treating Canada as a nation is lulz

<agnosticnixie> liberated from what? Toronto bankers? English domination?

<emmeka> I think sovereignty of the confederation is a worthwhile concept since it means ending our dependency on the yankees.

<agnosticnixie> shush

<emmeka> agnosticnixie more in the context of the USA

<emmeka> Well sovereignty of the confederation is essential if we want to preserve our social democratic concessions and industrial, first world economy.

<agnosticnixie> meh

<emmeka> But treating it as national liberation is lulz

<agnosticnixie> even that's silly; canada put itself willingly in this ressource economy

<emmeka> Sure, the Canadian bourgeoisie did.

<emmeka> It benefits them.

<emmeka> Not us.

<agnosticnixie> we could have industry but the leadershipin Ottawa only sees oil

<emmeka> Hmmm where's Tim Buck's work on this.

<LennyKitty> Press for a govt industralization company

<LennyKitty> like in italy after WW2

<emmeka> http://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/sections/canada/buck-tim/lenin-canada/ch07.htm

<GameOver> Title: Lenin and Canada (at www.marxists.org)

<emmeka> LennyKitty well it's a lot simpler than that.

<emmeka> LennyKitty Canada is being actively deindustrialized, the simple way to reverse this is to end free trade policies and re-enact protectionist measures.

<LennyKitty> its being deindustralized because cheaper labor can be found

<LennyKitty> protectionist measures can help yes

<LennyKitty> but it will also drive up prices because labor is more pricey

<agnosticnixie> deindustrialization due to cheap labor doesn't turn countries into resource extraction dependent economies

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<emmeka> "In economic terms the change was from all-round development of manufacturing, the processing of Canada’s natural resources, and trade with all countries, to restriction of manufacturing by drastic governmental action and systematic emphasis on expanding the production of raw materials needed by the United States."

<LennyKitty> To be fair, you should be Norway on natural resources

<LennyKitty> nationalize your shit, use the dividends for cool shit

<emmeka> This wasn't a natural process LennyKitty

<emmeka> Canada is being actively deindustrialized.

<emmeka> On purpose.

<emmeka> The very simple answer to this is to leave NAFTA and end reciprocity.

<LennyKitty> thats a very uphill struggle

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<emmeka> Not really.

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<emmeka> "Abbott rationalized it as follows: "...If we cut down the consumption of refrigerators, and other articles which contain metal, we can sell the metal in its original form... Instead of using labor in Canada to convert the metal into things our own people consume, we shall sell the raw materials."

<emmeka> This is quite precisely Canadian public policy - to supply the US manufacturing sector with cheap, bulk, raw goods.

<emmeka> It's a deliberate thing and thus a very simple thing to reverse.

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